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undercity

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  • #77506
    undercity
    Participant

    BTW: My shame is about mental health problems that I felt I had never asked for and felt it was incredibly unfair that despite all my better intentions I was still prone to feeling unhappy or anxious and that I didn’t deserve to have those problems (I felt that it made me de facto unacceptable to have mental health problems and that I would be looked down on for having them, rather than being a ‘normal’, ‘not damaged’ person). If you’re telling yourself all this bollocks, you’re really just punishing yourself for no reason. It is true that no one is normal. I make it my mission nowadays to notice all of the ways that everybody else in the world is insecure, has occasionally distorted thinking, gets unnecessarily emotional or overreacts (I am yet to meet anyone who this is not true for now and again and I have also realised I do not do it more often than they do – i.e. I am totally normal. The only time I behave in ways that is less ‘of the norm’ is when I am stuck in a pattern of screaming at myself for not being normal).

    You may be of a mixed gender identification, but have you considered how common this is? You are not alone, there are many people like you, and anyway, is that ALL of your identity? Is ALL of your identity connected to whether you like trousers or skirts and whether that changes? Or do you like tennis and rock music? And do you like watching soaps, or perhaps you prefer thrillers? There is more to you than one little thing and people see you as a whole person not as one trait (and they may not judge that trait the way you expect them to).

    #77505
    undercity
    Participant

    I think that’s probably how I felt when me and my ex broke up many years ago now – that I had been left so that he could live ‘a normal life’ without me in it (seeing as I so obviously make everything weird and I’m not normal, etc.) What you are experiencing is shame, and it’s very difficult to get rid of.

    I also felt that I had been happier many years ago than now but the reason was I was determined to make myself unhappy – to punish myself for being a weirdo.

    I understand it is difficult for you because of cultural norms, and that this poses an extra challenge, but what I remind myself of is “there are other people like me, I am not the only one”.

    Ask yourself: Would you judge another based on cultural norms? If not, there are other people just like you who would not judge another for this reason.

    Ask yourself: Are you compassionate towards others regarding their feelings, their suffering and their experiences? Do you choose not to judge but to accept? If the answer is yes: It is simply impossible that you are unique in this world, there are other people just like you.

    If you met your carbon copy in real life, would you hate them? Would you judge them? If not, there are other people just like you and if you want to spend your life with anyone, you want to hold out to find someone just like you.

    #77502
    undercity
    Participant

    I would add having read some of this…don’t become more independent to impress him…do it because you want to enjoy the time he is away rather than making yourself miserable. If you start thinking ‘he will like it better if I am as independent of this union as he is’ then you are simply confirming to yourself that it is extremely important that he likes you. It is not extremely important that he likes you, it is extremely that you like yourself (which is easier said than done sometimes if you find it difficult to see your positives).

    I like Ruminant’s thoughts about thinking of how everything happens within your own body. You are not currently dependent on ‘him’ – the actually physical person – for your happiness, you are currently dependent on ‘thinking of him liking you’ for your happiness. Question why that is: do you struggle to like yourself? Do you wish for approval and acceptance? I would suggest that every time thoughts of him come into your mind, remind yourself that you are looking for approval and that you are feeling badly about yourself – bring it back in your mind to the actual cause of the unhappiness. This reduces anxiety and gives you something a little more concrete to work with. Recognise that you have the power to feel better about yourself and that doing so comes from self-compassion and believing in your own power and agency to soothe yourself.

    #77500
    undercity
    Participant

    Dear Michelle – thank you for your thoughts. These were very interesting as I was actually preparing to explain to my therapist why I practice forgiveness and compassion so much :-p (He seems to think it is a perfectionistic standard but I do not).

    I don’t tend to hold grudges or get hung up on others’ behaviour towards me and the reason for this is that I learned long ago – who knows when – that if I take a deep breath and think ‘this person has struggles, as do I, I hope they feel good again soon’ and feel a sense of love and warmth towards them regardless of what they do, it brings me peace. But thank you for your suggestion because I know that doing this does make me feel peaceful so I think the suggestion is a very good one.

    Which brings me neatly to Anita’s response and again we’re getting into things I’ve been trying 😀 Not to say your words are not helpful because they are. I realised that I am compassionate towards others but not myself and that I do not need to ‘think myself into that space’ when it comes to others. For instance, a friend of mine often needs reassurance and help and it often feels like she does not listen to what I say so that we have the same conversation again and again. I eventually felt frustrated and vented to a friend, who said simply: “Well, she’s just going to have to learn how to self-soothe”. Without thinking, I replied: “Well I think that’s rather a tall order. Self-soothing is normally learned at age three or below, we’re talking about someone in their 30s, I think she will learn to self soothe in time but it will not be overnight.” I didn’t feel like I was being defensive and I didn’t feel angry or anything, I was just putting across my personal belief. I realised later that had those words been said against me: “You’re just going to have to self soothe”, I would have immediately thought: “They’ve got a point, I’m not very good at that and I should be better, I’m a complete nutcase and no one should ever have to be around me.” I would not practice the same logic towards myself as I do others.

    Trying to give myself the same standards as others, and not expect myself to magically ‘do better’ has been difficult, but I think you are right that I gave up too quickly.

    Also, although my shame does not come with words, I had a think about it and decided I think my shame is down to a very abstract concept of not being ‘normal’. I feel that I am not the same as other people and that I cannot be trusted in social situations because I don’t understand how to be a normal human being (so I must be hidden). I feel like I have no idea what normal is or how to behave (although I do not, and have never had, behavioural problems…) I was socially excluded at school until I was 11, so this may be the cause, although at the time I did not find it upsetting (because I saw the other children as ‘not so important any way’ and did not feel I was missing out). I will try to just let that be a thought, or a feeling, and trust that it is not a reflection of reality. And as you say, I will not stop because it doesn’t work immediately 😉

    Thanks all

    #77440
    undercity
    Participant

    You know what fixes every ail? Change every ‘should’ for ‘prefer’. I have had those moments where even though I felt I was giving because it is who I was and I did not expect recriprocity, I would suddenly feel enraged and start thinking ‘why does nobody treat me the way I treat others?!’

    The reason is: we all choose our behaviour. I have chosen to be giving and I do gain joy from it. Other people have the right to choose not be giving. You have the right to choose whether you continue to associate with them. If you do not enjoy your relationship with them, you have the right to no longer be in relationship with them. But everybody has the right to choose whether they are kind or cruel or compassionate or discompassionate – and you have that choice too. Live by your own value and expect others to live by theirs. There is not a right or wrong way to be, this is merely a difference of opinion. What I consider to be ‘morally right’, others might consider to be overkill, but I shall stick to what I believe and allow others to live as they wish too.

    #77436
    undercity
    Participant

    Dear Anita
    Yes, I somewhat agree and had come to a similar decision myself, although I am not putting aside the possibility that some children (potentially myself) are more sensitive to their environment than others as well and that it may be a collaboration of both factors. It has been pointed out in me that I am sensitive to my environment in that I notice beauty around me in nature and art and can really ‘feel’ that, and I also notice and ‘feel’ the emotions of others more immediately than others. I don’t think these are necessarily ‘bad’ things, they certainly have their uses and they definitely give me joy (because I can become absorbed in the beauty of art and nature, and because I am both compassionate towards the pain of others and happy for them when they are happy, seeing as I ‘catch’ their happiness too!) But of course it does potentially mean I am a little more vulnerable to my surroundings and need to ground myself from time to time (which isn’t a problem, particularly).

    With my parents, my mother has suffered quite severe mental health problems in her time (she believes she at one point had borderline personality disorder although I could not account for the validity of that) and I know that when I was a child she was volatile. She is much better now. She was abused as a child and had a very painful upbringing and she had not yet been treated when I was being raised. My father has problems in the opposite direction in that he is not capable of closeness particularly. We did not bond when I was young as we did not share either emotional or physical closeness and he was fiercely critical (especially when I was doing well – as if to keep me from ‘getting above my station’). So both parents had their own problems that will undoubtedly have affected my childhood, and of course I can logically surmise how this will have led to a feeling of shame, although when I look back I do not really even feel that I am the same person as I was back then because it is difficult to relate to myself as a child, knowing little – I suppose – of who I was at the time. I am not sure I could say I had a ‘bad’ childhood, as I would wonder what that meant really – compared to what? I would say that my care must have been inadequate, but I also trust my parents did the best they could with what they had, and I would say they also managed (against the odds) to do many things very well.

    #77432
    undercity
    Participant

    Dear Anita
    I apologise, I have not explained myself particularly well.

    I do not have a good memory of my childhood and it has become considerably worse post-therapy. Previously, I would have just given the blanket statement of ‘I had a good childhood’, but now that therapists have asked me to zoom in on what memories I have, I have seen some issues and am no longer sure of the quality of my care when I was a child – I remember isolated incidents that could be described as less than adequate care, and some memories that would be described as adequate (or good) care, but I would not be able to say the frequency of either type of event or really give any impression of the overall quality of care. I am not the best judge of it, bizarrely. I simply do not have enough memories to evaluate it, which I put down to being an extremely daydreamy child – I probably just was not with it most of the time so memories did not get stored.

    I do remember in those negative memories times when I would have been criticised or when it would have been understandable for me to feel shame, but to answer your question these episodes are not called to mind when I feel shame and they do feel very disconnected. I can logically connect childhood events to present-time emotions, but I cannot emotionally connect them. It just seems so long ago (I am 28, so it os quite a long time ago now!) I would say that the emotions are very non-verbal and come more as a ‘state of being’. I would say shame is also very normalised for me so I did not identify it as shame for many years and it feels a little like ‘just how life is’. I had many of the disorders linked to chronic shame, such as eating disorders, and later I developed social phobia (in my late teens, which is oddly late on for social phobia), and workaholism. I have overcome all of this now (except, arguably, the workaholism, though it is nowhere near as bad).

    I don’t think I have a reason to be ashamed (i.e. I do not think I am shameful), but I am somewhat as a loss as to what to do about it. I do, as you say, survive rather than live and have for as long as I can remember, but I seem to tolerate it well. I suppose I’m more now starting to think about the possibility of a different way of living in which I feel fulfilled or satisfied or content. I suppose I have no idea how to overcome shame that seems so illogical, so started to wonder if I could be happy as well as ashamed….although I guess that doesn’t make sense, does it?!

    #77430
    undercity
    Participant

    My experience with anxiety is that if you recognise that anxiety is bearable and goes away on its own and you don’t fight it or try to replace it with something positive, it goes away on its own.

    There are different types of asking for reassurance, so I don’t want to give you advice that won’t help. But I used to ask for a lot of reassurance on whether I as “_____ enough” (enter pretty much anything that I had begun to doubt) and the reason I didn’t believe anyone’s reassurance was because I already felt I knew I wasn’t “_____ enough” so their opinion really didn’t matter anyway. If it’s this kind of thing – low self-esteem – then yeah it’s pretty horrible but I find this best:

    1) Recognise what thought or feeling you are having (notice it)
    2) Distract yourself – when you have the thought immediately do something nice for yourself (maybe make a list of small things you like so you can absorb in something positive) – this step helps to prevent rumination which will make your feelings worse
    3) Come back after distraction (once you have forgotten the feeling/thought) because then you will be more clear headed and ask yourself what you’re really afraid of – what are the consequences of not being “good enough” – are you afraid that you will be isolated from society? (I think this was/is my fear), are you afraid you will be criticised, punished, hurt? That’s teh bit you need to logic, not the self-esteem thoughts. If you logic the self-esteem thoughts (But I AM pretty, or whatever) you will make them worse, unfortunately.

    The other possibility is that you are seeking reassurance over the potential for abandonment. This is one of those things that is rooted in all kinds of different issues. It could be fear of being left because of ‘who you are’ (low self-esteem), or for some people it is fear that they cannot survive in the world on their own (fear of independence), or for some people it is fear that they will not meet another person who is ‘as good for them’ as the person they are with now.

    Again, you want to look at what specific fears are behind the shallower fears (so a less deep abandonment fear might be ‘does he/she look less interested today? Is that a sign he/she is leaving’?) Don’t logic these thoughts. Don’t sit there and think ‘no there are many reasons he/she would do that, it doesn’t mean he/she is going to leave’ because this just confirms to yourself that the potential for them to leave is terribly and terrifyingly important. Ask yourself instead, WHY is it so important. Is it because it would say something about you? (Think of all the ways this isn’t true – one person’s feelings towards you do not define you). Is it because you believe no one will ever be better for you than this particular person? (Recognise that if it were true one day that this particular person was less interested then that de facto makes them not the best person for you, which means there are people out there even better!), or if it’s that you fear being alone…then in that case I will let someone else help because that’s the fear I don’t have experience with and can’t understand as well as the others 🙂

    I would also ask yourself, btw, why you fear asking for reassurance. Have you tried telling your boyfriend that you feel you need reassurance all the time and want to find ways to improve your anxieties? Does he know how much this is bothering you? Just having his support for the underlying rather than ‘on the surface’ issues would be great for you, as it is difficult to cope with painful feelings if you feel you cannot/should not admit to them (you can always tell people).

    #77428
    undercity
    Participant

    I worry about other people’s feelings too much as well, although I would say this one thing – do yourself a favour and don’t call yourself ‘a codependent’. You are not a codependent, you are a human being, and calling yourself by a pathological term that is generally seen as a negative attribute will not help you with your guilt, it will just add to it with shame. I don’t believe in codependency, or love addiction, or love avoidants, or whatever personally. I believe in normal people struggling with the individual obstacles and traumas they have come across at this particular time. We all have our own ways of coping, but I believe that almost every single one of us always does our very best.

    Feel free to ignore that, just my view, perhaps the labeling feels better to you.

    As for what to do about your situation. You are obviously a kind man and able to see that your ex boyfriend is a man in tremendous pain, with poor coping skills. You don’t need to change your opinion of him or think about what hurt he has caused (unless you particularly want to) to get over this. You have the valuable skill of seeing other people in shades of grey and having compassion for their suffering. So go you.

    As for looking after yourself, what I try to remember is that there is nothing I would be able to do. There is nothing I could do to take the pain away from them without inadvertently making it worse and the only way I can help them is by not helping. Then I remind myself that human beings are resilient and they are not as vulnerable as I expect them to be.

    I think you are right that your ex’s behaviour is emotionally manipulative, whether he knows that is another issue. I know for myself that I once blurted out during a break up that I didn’t think I would ever be happy again, for instance (it seemed this way to me because I had suffered chronic mental health problems for many years and had few memories of feeling good), but I know I didn’t mean that in a manipulative way, it just seemed to me to be a fact at the time. It may be the case that your ex is saying the things that seem to him to be the genuine truth, but we can all get caught up in things and be clouded by our own dreads and fears. We all get out of it too.

    Have faith in your ex’s ability to survive. He survived before you and he can get himself through this too. Also have faith there are other people around him to provide support and that your main duty now is to yourself, to help you feel less guilt over this because you haven’t – and I hope you know this – done anything wrong. You have rather done the best thing for both of you.

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