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November 10, 2024 at 1:31 am #439245Jana 🪷Participant
Hello everyone,
I am still quite new to Buddhism and I am on my journey to discovering more of Buddhist philosophy. I think I understand the concept of Karma in Buddhism, as I have watched some videos by Thic Hanh and Buddhism in English and read a lecture by Dalai Lama on Karma. But I haven’t come across the idea of karmic relationships in Buddhism yet. It seems to me that Buddhist approach to Karma is more “down-to-earth” and it focuses a lot on individual, intrapersonal intentions, but it doesn’t seem to be interested in interpersonal relationships of life.
Also, in media I can see that karmic relationships are interpreted as negative, as a debt which our soul owes to others (which I am not sure is consistent with the concept of anatta in Buddhism) but very rarely positive.
My boyfriend believes that our relationship can’t be just a coincidence and that it is karma (which is funny because he is the one who is more reasonable and pragmatic in our relationship). 🙂 I don’t deny either idea. It might be just a coincidence, it might be karma. Who knows. I am open to both ideas. However, I believe that the idea that it could be karma – a positive one – is very beneficial for the relationship because it makes us care about each other… being emotionally, spiritually connected (can this alone be actually just a coincidence?) makes the relationship so much deeper and we value it very deeply. It really goes beyond the superficiality of relationships based mainly on the feelings of novelty and sexuality. It is just an interesting question: Is it just a coincidence, just a lottery in life, or is it “karma”?
But I am interested in your opinions and experience. Do you know more about this topic in Buddhism? Have you ever felt this, let’s call it, “karmic connection” to somebody? Positive or negative? 🙂
☀️ 🪷
November 10, 2024 at 9:20 am #439247RobertaParticipantHi Jana
Karma is a vast and complex subject and as i am a bear of very little brain. I can only remember snippets of this topic in a general and simplified way. As all beings have had countless lives, we all have been each others parents at one time or another. Over our lives we have been & done a lot of things both skillful & unskilful ie tinker tailor soldier sailor richman poorman beggar man thief.
When certain conditions are met then kamic seeds ripen . Look at a tree, we know it needs light, water & nutrients, but I could not tell you which beam of sunlight, which drop of rain and which particular nutrient caused a particular leaf to appear. I am not a buddha!
In life sh!t happens it is how we respond that matters. Living life intentionally, serving others ( even if it just giving a stranger a smile). I can’t change the karma that I created in the past lives but I can be aware of what I am creating now. Acknowledging & then rectifying unskillfulness also dedicating the merit of any skillful actions done by me for the benefit of all sentient beings.
I once had a fancyfull notion about one of my ex’s that we were strongly connected in the past – he loved me but he was a priest and i was a wise woman (witch) & he denounced me & I was burnt at the stake! Years later I was in a church (not with him) in France & I got a feeling that was where it happened- I couldn’t get out of there quick enough. It was probably a book I read or a film that I have watched that fed my very vivid imagination. What counts is how we treat each other in real life.
November 10, 2024 at 9:20 am #439248anitaParticipantDear Jana:
“I believe that the idea that it could be karma – a positive one – is very beneficial for the relationship because it makes us care about each other.. being emotionally, spiritually connected (can this alone be actually just a coincidence?)… Is it just a coincidence, just a lottery in life, or is it ‘karma’? But I am interested in your opinions and experience… Have you ever felt this, let’s call it, ‘karmic connection’ to somebody? Positive or negative?“-
– this is how I see it, simplified: every individual living being (plant, animal, human..) is like a wave in the sea, or in the ocean. It comes to be (fertilized/ born) , rises (grows up) and then falls (ages and dies), returning to the ocean.. but then a wave never left the ocean, always been part of the ocean. It’s just that it expressed itself as an individual wave for awhile.
We humans, are all connected whether we know it or not, whether we are strangers or family, whether we live in the same time or at different times. We affect each other in ways that spread from location to location, ways that are passed on from one generation to the next.
Each one of us is a wave in the ocean, connected, but many don’t feel the connection. many are not aware of the connection. I wasn’t until recently.
(I am italicizing information from sources online): Karma refers to the spiritual principle of cause and effect, where one person’s actions in past lives affect one’s present life. I believe that everyone’s actions (all the waves in the ocean, past and present, throughout the vast distance of the ocean) affect the lives of each and every individual person.
A karmic connection or karmic relationship refers to a bond between individuals believed to be influenced by karma. These relationships are often seen as opportunities for personal growth and learning. They may bring up unresolved issues from past lives that need to be addressed. I believe that all relationships are influenced by the actions of people in past and present lives, and therefore all connections and all relationships are karmic, and each relationship (romantic or not) is an opportunity for growth and learning, an opportunity to address and resolve issues and problems.
For example, Jana: you and I were connected (2 waves in the ocean) before we knew of the existence of each other as an individual. Now that we know of each other’s individual existence, our connection is an opportunity for growth and learning, an opportunity to address and resolve problems. In the context of this opportunity, I keep in mind the principle of do-no-harm. I do not want to pass on harm to you. I do not want to be harmed either. I want our connection to be helpful, not harmful.
The ultimate goal of a karmic relationship is to balance karmic debts and to heal past wounds, leading to personal and spiritual development– to balance the karmic debt left in my life by my mother (and by others), the debt of aggression, I need to be not aggressive, but kind, compassionate and respectful with you. And with myself: to reject/ remove others’ aggression (overt or covert) that’s directed at me, whenever, wherever possible, and welcome others’ compassion and respect.
Thank you for bringing up this topic. I am looking forward to reading more from you and from other responders.
anita
November 10, 2024 at 12:15 pm #439251HelcatParticipantHi Jana
There is an interesting piece of writing called View of Interpersonal Karma in the Journal of Global Buddhism on the subject. I’m not sure if you’ve read it?
It is a complicated subject, so I can really only give a small fragment of an opinion because I don’t want to detract from your sharing of your beautiful loving relationship. It really is very sweet that you both have such a special connection.
The way that I think about life is that it is a continuous learning experience. Different people come into our lives to teach us different things.
I don’t think that bad experiences are necessarily cut and dry as bad karma. The way I see things, bad things can set life on a unique path in which good things can later follow (sometimes years later). I have had some very difficult experiences, but without them I would never have met my husband or given birth to my son.
Another common theme in Buddhism I’m sure you’ve heard of before is overcoming attachment which can cause suffering. I believe that we borrow each other. We don’t know how things will turn out. We could lose our loved ones tomorrow, so it is important to tell them that you love them. If that makes sense at all?
Love and best wishes! ❤️🙏
November 11, 2024 at 3:24 am #439263Jana 🪷Participant“I can’t change the karma that I created in the past lives but I can be aware of what I am creating now.”
I agree. I think that Karma can also be a source of suffering for some people who do not understand it properly or they interpret it as a “destiny” or “punishment” for unwholesome actions made in the past life. We cannot place the blame on Karma and give up our responsibility for our lives and good/bad actions.
These “deja vu” moments, which you mentioned, are also interesting. Who knows if it is really only a vivid imagination or spiritual experience. But you are right and I definitely agree – the most important is the present moment, here and now, and the effort to create good karma for all of us.
☀️ 🪷
November 11, 2024 at 4:02 am #439264Jana 🪷ParticipantThat is very nice and encouraging… because you are a kind person with a good heart and deep understanding. However, you know that there are people who turned to the wrong path and they hurt other people, animals, … And I still have troubles to accept the connection with them, which you describe here.
“Each one of us is a wave in the ocean, connected, but many don’t feel the connection. many are not aware of the connection. I wasn’t until recently.”
But I know that there’s this “evil seed” in me, too. I just didn’t decide to water it. I believe that there is the “good seed” in them, as well. But it is not in my power to awaken this good part of them, to let them see and take care of the goodness. I don’t know how to awaken compassion in others… as it seems to me that if I am myself, I am good and compassionate, it is interpreted as a weakness by these people (it is connected to my previous thread about fear of people).
May I ask you about your relationship with your mom today? Have you found peace with each other? Or have you seperated and you heal her and yourself from distance? (I am very sorry if it is too personal and you do not have to answer if you don’t want to.)
Thank you!
☀️ 🪷
November 11, 2024 at 4:22 am #439265Jana 🪷ParticipantI especially like this part and can relate to that: “The way I see things, bad things can set life on a unique path in which good things can later follow (sometimes years later). I have had some very difficult experiences, but without them I would never have met my husband or given birth to my son.”
I think that the first part of my life wasn’t easy for me at all. But because I didn’t turn to evil – I didn’t become the same person as the people who hurt me and I didn’t fall into alcoholism – I got this “reward” (my boyfriend, our peace, …) in my present life. And it makes a perfect sense, doesn’t it. But many people still do not understand this and go down the same path of evil.
I know the theme of attachment very well. And even though I don’t have unhealthy attachment to my boyfriend – as I realize that one day one of us will die – I believe deep in my heart that we will meet again in next life. 🙂
Thank you for letting me know about the article View of Interpersonal Karma. I’ll check it!
☀️ 🪷
November 11, 2024 at 1:19 pm #439274anitaParticipantDear Jana:
In reference to what I wrote here: “Each one of us is a wave in the ocean, connected, but many don’t feel the connection. many are not aware of the connection. I wasn’t until recently“, you responded:
“That is very nice and encouraging.. because you are a kind person with a good heart and deep understanding. However, you know that there are people who turned to the wrong path and they hurt other people, animals.. And I still have troubles to accept the connection with them, which you describe (above)”- I am glad you brought this up because it gives me an opportunity to explain: I do not feel a warm connection to bad people such as rapists, child molesters, human traffickers, terrorists and world leaders responsible for the deaths of millions of people. I can feel a warm connection to them only as the babies and young children that they were before they became bad people. I feel connected to them only in the sense that they are waves (unfortunately, some are huge waves) in the ocean where I am also a wave.
I do not feel empathy for bad people like the above groups I mentioned, and I am all about strictly removing them from access to potential victims.
“But I know that there’s this ‘evil seed’ in me, too“- yes, there is a bad seed in me too, and it has expressed itself many times, not in the ways I mentioned above, but in ways I most regret, ways that harmed good people. I would do anything to go back in time and correct my ways, if I only could.
“I just didn’t decide to water it“- behaviors I most regret, a particular one event, it was not a cold-hearted behavior, one that followed a decision to water a bad seed. I was swept away with emotion, and before I knew it, it was said and done. A person has to have a level of self-awareness and emotion regulation to decide what seed to water and follow through with the decision.
“I believe that there is the ‘good seed’ in them, as well. But it is not in my power to awaken this good part of them, to let them see and take care of the goodness. I don’t know how to awaken compassion in others“- I think (and wish it wasn’t so) that some people have crossed the line and the good seed is forever buried within them. Too deeply buried to awaken. In most people (I hope that it’s most), dormant good seeds can be awakened.
“as it seems to me that if I am myself, I am good and compassionate, it is interpreted as a weakness by these people (it is connected to my previous thread about fear of people)“- it is interpreted as weakness-to-be-exploited by people whose motivation is not to have compassion for you, but to have power over you for their advantage (to your disadvantage)
“May I ask you about your relationship with your mom today? Have you found peace with each other? Or have you separated and you heal her and yourself from distance? (I am very sorry if it is too personal and you do not have to answer if you don’t want to.)“- thank you for your sensitivity. I read this morning your recent reply in another thread where you shared about your mother disapproving of your choice to not have children, and reads to me that her disapproval bothers you a lot, understandably. And I understand that your relationship with your mother is ongoing. Seems to me that if I was in your place, I too would continue my relationship with her.
Problem is in regard to my mother is that My Pain was Her Pleasure. She literally enjoyed throwing verbal (and physical) punches at me (extensive, prolonged and repeated shaming/ humiliating sessions) and then watching me with a mild and yet tangible joy, a mild smile, corners of her mouth turned slightly upward, excitedly anticipating to see the pain on my face. This was true when I was a girls, and this was true last time I saw her.
No, I have no relationship with her. Her old verbal punches still follow me. My body is still reacting to those (ongoing tics, ongoing bodily tension). I don’t need new punches.
anita
November 11, 2024 at 2:16 pm #439276HelcatParticipantHi Jana
Thank you for another thought provoking topic!
I think that it is easy to make bad decisions, but it takes hard work to try and be a good person. It is a shame that some people are not cut out for that.
I’m curious, do you remember ever consciously choosing the good path?
My initial reason was not necessarily a good one, but it was very effective. I simply didn’t want to become like the person who hurt me.
It definitely makes sense! You worked really hard to create a beautiful life for yourself and overcome your suffering. You deserve this peace. 🕊️
My husband was listening to a video today that was talking about karma. It described these things in terms of percentages. Say over a lifetime, a person does a percentage of good things and a percentage of bad things and the weighting of that dictates their karma in their next life. I thought it was fascinating.
It truly is beautiful hearing you talk about your relationship. ❤️
A pleasure chatting, as always. 😊
Love and best wishes! ❤️🙏
November 12, 2024 at 4:48 am #439287Jana 🪷Participant“I’m curious, do you remember ever consciously choosing the good path?
My initial reason was not necessarily a good one, but it was very effective. I simply didn’t want to become like the person who hurt me.”
Now I’m not sure what you mean. Do you mean it in the context of the path to Buddhism or my practical life?
☀️ 🪷
November 12, 2024 at 9:45 am #439286Jana 🪷Participant“I can feel a warm connection to them only as the babies and young children that they were before they became bad people. I feel connected to them only in the sense that they are waves (unfortunately, some are huge waves) in the ocean where I am also a wave.”
That’s nice and useful advice on how to maintain the buddhist “neutrality of mind”. I find this advice on cultivating compassion for others very useful, as well. I found it here a few weeks ago: https://zenhabits.net/a-guide-to-cultivating-compassion-in-your-life-with-7-practices/ Although I realize it’s very hard to feel compassion for really bad people, I personally believe it’s something to strive for… to get more of those nice waves in the ocean… you know.
I’m sure it’s a good thing you were able to end all relations with your mother. She sounds like a sadistic person to me. 🙁 Perhaps one day (or more likely in one of many afterlives) she’ll come to peace… but more important is if you’re feeling better today. And I hope that you are not alone and that you are surrounded by people who protect and love you.
As for my mom, we like and respect each other. I’ve been with my boyfriend for 9 years and I think she knows very well we’re happy together and she likes him too. She was just projecting her ideas and desires onto me… but I think that she understands that I am not her and lets me live the way I want today. (BTW she’s got three other kids and she’s already got four nephews and one niece and will probably have some more in the future by my younger brother, so she can’t really complain about anything. 😀 )
☀️ 🪷
November 12, 2024 at 10:09 am #439296anitaParticipantThank you for the reply, Jana, and for the link.
Good to read that you and your mother respect each other. Also, good to read about your solid relationship with your boyfriend!
“Although I realize it’s very hard to feel compassion for really bad people, I personally believe it’s something to strive for… to get more of those nice waves in the ocean… you know“- imagine a deer feeling compassion for the mountain lion approaching it. Imagine the deer thinking: poor mountain lion, he is hungry. I must help him satisfy his hunger..!
anita
November 12, 2024 at 7:57 pm #439307Jana 🪷ParticipantCompassion is not pity or self-sacrifice.☀️
☀️ 🪷
November 12, 2024 at 8:07 pm #439308anitaParticipantGood thing, Jana: compassion is not self-sacrifice.
anita
November 12, 2024 at 10:08 pm #439311Jana 🪷ParticipantI hope we’re still okay. I “feel” that you are not comfortable with these Buddhist topics and I now understand that you are probably not a lay Buddhist like me, which I really don’t want to bother you with.
I’m going to retreat from tinybuddha for a few days to clear my mind, get some new energy and also prepare for the winter – there’s a lot to do outside.
Take care! 🙂
☀️ 🪷
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