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April 1, 2017 at 8:12 am #143213KaylaParticipant
Anita,
I think you hit the nail on the head. His relationship with his father was strained and he spoke of his father negatively. He said his father had extreme social anxiety and instead of dealing with it, he attempted to control every situation so it went exactly the way he wanted it to go. If his father couldn’t control it, he would avoid it. The resentment he felt towards his father was palpable whenever he talked about him. He would talk about essentially battling his father, how he used conversations about, say, where they would go out to dinner as an opportunity to “not let him control the situation.” He would always say things along the lines of “I’m not going to let him get away with this behavior.”
His conversations with his father, that I witnessed or that he related to me, often seemed like a battle of wills. I’d watch them both argue about something really insignificant, each stubbornly claiming the other was wrong and didn’t know what they were talking about. And that’s always what it was about- being right. They both just had to be right. Again, it was one of those situations where I couldn’t really say anything to get him to see a new perspective, have him try to let go and accept his father for who he was instead of trying to change him or show him that he was wrong. His anger around the situation was so intense that I just instinctively knew better than to try to say anything about it.
I see now that he was playing that dynamic out in our relationship. He probably saw my attempts to set boundaries or have my wants/needs addressed as me trying to control the situation. His father has anxiety, and I have anxiety, therefore I was just like his father. So he treated me the way he treats his father- by showing and explaining how he is right, by making me feel like I was wrong or bad for wanting to do things differently. And yes- by being angry. I’m seeing that now, all of the ways that he was very angry and frustrated with me for the smallest things I would do.
Perhaps I was always trying to have a conversation about what works best for both parties, but knowingly or not, he was always engaging in a battle of wills. I see how that played out in his “ideal” way a relationship should function- he plans things and I go along, then I plan things and he goes along. He had no interest in truly working together, just taking turns submitting to each other’s wishes. Except, of course, I ended up doing the submitting, and the few times he did things “my way” were used against me when I tried to talk about how things weren’t working for me. We went over that point again and again, and I could never really get him to see my perspective.
I’m also seeing now that this is perhaps why I endured the relationship for as long as I did, and why I felt compelled to keep trying to make it work. My step-father was a very angry man, and had an angry way of relating. My childhood with him was always about structuring our lives, days, and behaviors around “not making Mark mad.” He was never physically abusive, so I’m not sure that any of us understood how threatened we were by his anger. I remember once my Mom took me and my brother out for ice cream, and she was frantic about us hiding all of the evidence, and adamant about how we were to never tell him about it, how it was our secret. I felt bad and wrong for even just existing, for being a kid and doing kid things. Everything was always tense, I felt like I always had to be on guard lest I make a mistake and set him off. Maybe that’s why I can handle relationships that aren’t peaceful- some part of me thinks tension is normal in relationships.
And even to this day, though she divorced him years ago, my Mom will still talk about my step-dad’s good qualities, how he was a good provider and a hard worker. I think I was essentially trained to be submissive to angry men, and to look at their anger towards me as a sign that I had done something wrong. If I’m honest with myself, my father also has a temper and was often angry, and I had to tiptoe around him as well. His anger issues have gotten exponentially better in the last 5 years or so, but he was angry throughout my childhood. Maybe that’s what I subconsciously think love and relationships with men looks like- waiting out the anger, trying to change myself so they are less angry.
I’m getting pretty emotional typing all of this out. If all of this is true, which it feels like it is, I struggle with what I do with the information. How do I break this pattern? How do I recognize the anger for what it is early on? I want and know I need to take some time before I begin dating again, but I want to make sure I know how to break this pattern before I try to put myself out there again.
April 1, 2017 at 6:57 am #143195KaylaParticipantHi Mia,
Thank you again, it is really nice to hear of someone else who has been through a similar situation! During the break-up talk, he sort of mentioned my “stress when we do his activities” but then also subtley tried to accuse me of not trusting him or thinking he was doing “things he’s not supposed to do” when he does activities without me. I’m assuming he’s referring to the fact that he does a lot of these activities with other women, including single women. I shut him down, immediately on both counts, and told him “that is not what is going on and I really don’t think it would be worthwhile or productive for us to get into that right now.” I’m seeing now how the issue was always the same but the blame shifted depending on my response to it. Going back to what Anita said about how he’s not likely to ever be satisfied. He refused to accept responsibility for being selfish with the way he “planned” things and did not try to ever take my schedule, wants, or needs into account when attempting to spend time with me. Instead, he tried several tactics to make it my “fault,” and each time I stepped up to correct the fault, somehow a new one would appear.
Right now I’m not struggling with the “I should’ve been more patient or less judgmental.” I’m struggling with the “I should have been more assertive, maybe if I had been stronger in pointing out these behaviors and done so earlier on, he would have responded better.” Meaning, he just needed a stronger, more assertive woman and I failed in that regard. But then I remember the times when, like you said, I did try to, extremely gently, get him to see another perspective and how he reacted and talked down to me, and I decided it wasn’t worth the energy and the sick feeling I got trying to make him look at things differently. Or the times I did firmly say “I need ___, or it hurts me when you do ____.” Strong woman or not, I have to remind myself that it’s not my responsibility to get him to change. If someone who loves you is gently trying to get you to see a new perspective, it is your job to try to be receptive to that, whatever the outcome. I know that whenever I hurt him or he tried to get me to see my flawed thinking, I thought about it carefully and usually ended up apologizing and tried to look at things from that perspective.
Like I said before, I can’t recall a time when he’s said the words “I’m sorry.” He has acknowledged his behavior, even acknowledged that he should do things differently, but I’ve never once heard him say he’s sorry. Those words are powerful and meaningful, and I wonder why he always held them back. To subtley make me feel like I was still the root cause of all of the issues? Because that’s what ended up happening.
I am taking your advice- I got really down yesterday thinking about all of the good behaviors. Now I’m trying to focus on all of the times I felt flat-out ignored, all of the times he was extremely passive aggressive, the times he refused to accommodate me and made me feel like I was bad or wrong for even having those wants or needs, the times he suggested I get on medication or see an endocrinologist or hinted that I was lazy. And I remember all that he didn’t do and didn’t see, all of the amazing things I have accomplished in my life, the challenges I’ve overcome, the dreams I have for myself. The focus was always, always on him- his needs, his dreams for the future, and how I fit into that. I love him, I do, and he did have some really amazing qualities. But like you said, I can see how he was already shifting the blame in his mind. My good quality is that I always seek to see the best in people. I need to remember that sometimes, like now, I need to focus on the flaws so that I can move on.
What you said about how your ex “used all my “issues/anxiety” that I opened up to him about as a way to try and say “I have big issues and need lots of help!” also really struck a chord with me. I opened my heart to this man, which was scary for me, and all of the things that I have struggled or had happen to me in the past somehow always become fodder for shifting blame on to me. I would talk to him about a want or need of mine not being met, and he would basically discredit my claim, saying it was due to anxiety or because of my “past issues.” But of course, I could never bring up how his past might be affecting his behavior.
It still hurts. I know it will take me awhile to move on from him and not miss all of the good things about him. But I need to remember that I am good too, I was good to him too, and I deserve, as Anita said, a win-win relationship. And so do you!!
March 31, 2017 at 10:28 am #143089KaylaParticipantHi Anita,
I attempted to post earlier but I don’t think it went through. We ended our relationship this morning. We both knew it was at an end, but I went over there to essentially finalize and have a final discussion after not speaking to each other all day yesterday (unheard of for us). Though the split was civil and amicable, and we said kind things to each other, he did not apologize for the ways he hurt me this week by forgetting our plans in favor of more enticing ones that came along. He acknowledged that this happened, and acknowledged his unwillingness to change or compromise. This was confirmation to me of all the things I’ve been discussing here. We did not focus on any of this, as it seemed pointless and draining considering we were ending the relationship because we both knew it would not be resolved. I did not wish to force him to admit he was being selfish and to apologize. He stated that he does not want to change who he is, and it’s not for me to tell him he needs to make that change. It was just our time to part ways. He did want to stay friends, and I told him I would need some space and time to re-calibrate.
I am so grateful for everyone’s messages on here, as they have helped me think about and work through some very painful and confusing days. I’m sad and hurt, but deep down know this is for the best.
I believe you are right, Anita, when you talk about my fundamental belief that I am wrong that was with me before this relationship. I also believe it stems from childhood. I currently intern at a domestic violence shelter, and it is from this experience that I learned that my step-father of 11 years was extremely controlling as well as emotionally and economically abusive. I have other issues from childhood as well. I have been seeing a therapist on campus for awhile now, but our focus shifts and we’ve dealt a lot with my anxiety and history of sexual assault, as for the duration of this relationship I’ve believed that those were my primary problems. I’m seeing now that I need to focus more on why I always tend to blame myself when things are difficult.
Thank you for your insight. I’ve spent many years on a journey to healing and wholeness, and despite the sadness I feel from this relationship, I am excited and grateful to be continuing this journey and see what else I am able to learn from this situation.
March 31, 2017 at 5:05 am #143053KaylaParticipantHi Mia,
Thank you for your reply. It’s so comforting and validating to know I’m not the only one that’s been in this situation. I battle myself constantly, swinging back and forth between “no, I know something is wrong here” and “I’m just being difficult, insecure, and a stick-in-the-mud and I need to try harder.”
I think what I’ve realized since posting from what you and others have said is that he does have his own set of issues that he is deflecting. And that one of the ways he deflects is by focusing on my issues. I never thought about it that way, because we never talk about him having issues. The story he’s created is that he does have ADHD, but he takes meds and has done a ton of work to manage it, and uses his coping skills. That is what has allowed him to be successful in his master’s program and now his PhD, which obviously requires a great deal of time just sitting, researching, writing, and working on projects. I’m seeing now that I heard this story from him and I took it as the end of the story- he’s overcome his issues, and he functions well. That’s interesting to me, because though I function very well with anxiety, I know I always have my areas for improvement that I consistently work on.
One of his coping mechanisms is high activity. I’ve always been so supportive of all of this. But what I missed is that he still struggles greatly with planning and impulsiveness. And instead of acknowledging that and how it affects (and often hurts) the people around him, he has pretty much decided that those are aspects of himself and his ADHD that he is not willing to change or work on.
I know this because when we broke up in January, we talked about planning issues and how he just impulsively does things and doesn’t plan things well with me. He would rather he plans stuff and I join along, then I plan stuff and he joins along. In practice, he always has a say in my plans but I don’t have much in his, whether he realizes this or not. When I suggested we make plans together, check in with each other, etc., he literally acknowledged that he can do “some of that,” but at the end of the day he wants to do what he wants to do. This manifests itself in quite a few different ways. I’m seeing now that this is why he is so insistent on me “going with the flow” and forgetting our plans or being upset when I attempt to set some boundaries on some of the stuff we do together. There, of course, are times when he does try, but the effort is short lived and seems to be a struggle and a burden for him. When I’ve mentioned this to him, he often says things like “no, that’s just the way you’re interpreting it, that’s your perception.” But I’m not a crazy person with crazy expectations. I spend a lot of time with him and know how he operates, I think he just doesn’t like that I can see through the facade he puts up sometimes, because I’ve watched him do it with other people.
So, extremely long explanation here again. Sorry about that. Basically I agree- he still has major issues from ADHD that he refuses at this point to even acknowledge and instead states them as normal aspects of his personality. I think perhaps this is what Anita was saying earlier. He completely missed an important meeting he had with a child last week. When another person on the project asked him where he was and told him that she needed to know in advance if he was going to miss a meeting like that, he was very angry at her. He expressed this to me and acted like she was being unreasonable, he said he forgot so of course he couldn’t let her know next time because he didn’t know he was going to miss it. All of the focus was on her response, which I truly thought was mild and professional considering the situation. But instead of lamenting and saying “wow I really blew it here, I feel so bad about disappointing this kid,” he directed all of those feelings of shame at this woman. I didn’t point any of that out, but I did say “everyone makes mistakes, and you feel badly about this and will do your best to make it up next time” but it didn’t really seem to calm him down. What I took away from this situation was his unwillingness to look at how his ADHD is still having a major impact on his life. I mean, he’s never forgotten or missed a time to hang out with someone to do one of his activities. His priorities are clear, and he gets upset and defensive any time anyone challenges or looks at that. Which is why, I think, I’ve subconsciously learned not to bring it up.
I’ve thought about what you’ve said and I will most likely talk to him today. I may bring these things up. I hear you, and always want to feel like I gave it one last try. I think my problem here is I’m very tired. I’ve tried a lot. And even if by some miracle he does acknowledge his issues, he would have to commit to change. I don’t have much hope that this will be the case, given past discussions. I guess we will see.
Again, thank you. I’m sorry you went through this too. If you’re anything like me, you’ve worked so, so hard on your anxiety issues and felt like you had made a ton of progress, but being with your ex made you feel like you were still failing constantly. It’s hard to feel supported and encouraged when there is so much blame being directed at you, especially in the extremely subtle, back-handed and often manipulated ways it is. I don’t think they are bad people, I think they are doing the best they can with where they are at. I just don’t think we are on the same page anymore.
March 30, 2017 at 2:06 pm #142999KaylaParticipantThank you Anita and Inky. I did not bring up the anxiety issue with him, but at the beginning of this week I did attempt to do some of the things I had promise him I would work on- being assertive and taking initiative to invite him to things. Even though our big “fight” about all of this was Saturday/Sunday, we only made it until yesterday without issue. On Monday I had invited him to rock climb on Friday, though in the morning rather than at night when he usually goes (last weekend we had even discussed how I would be able to participate in more activities if we could do them earlier, as I have a hard time with hard physical activity late at night, and he enthusiastically said he could do mornings if I suggested it). I also invited him to go for a hike/bike ride on Saturday as that is the only day the weather will be nice here.
Wednesday night (last night), he mentioned rock climbing with a friend on Saturday, but said he was going to tell him he preferred to go Friday. I was silent because honestly I was kind of stunned, and kind of reeling from the fact that in less than 48 hours he had forgotten that he had said he would go rock climbing with me. He noticed, and said “oh yeah, you wanted to go climbing on Friday.” Long story short, he then kept pushing me to go late afternoon/evening on Friday when I had originally said I wanted to go in the morning . He said “so if we (meaning him and his friend) go late in the afternoon you won’t have the energy and won’t want to go at all?” I even compromised and said I would go early afternoon, that I just didn’t want to go late and not get home until midnight or later. He responded by saying that he liked to go Friday nights because it’s a “Friday night thing, to go out on Friday nights.” I said I understood, but that I had a lot of homework to do Saturday which is why I didn’t want to be out late on Friday and why I originally suggested Saturday morning. He said “soo…you don’t like going on out Friday nights” in a really kind of dismissive tone, like there was something wrong with me.
We didn’t finish the conversation because I had walked into the kitchen to start making dinner, and I was so hurt by his behavior I didn’t know what to do. We argued about another issue a few minutes later, a camping trip we are trying to plan for after the semester is over. I had said a week ago that I didn’t want to go with a large group, that I preferred a smaller group especially because I won’t know any of the people he is inviting. He gets mad whenever we talk specific numbers, but had agreed on a smaller group. Last night, however, he named off at least 7+ people that were interested that he had talked to about it, who will also most likely bring friends. When I very quietly stated that I thought we had agreed on a smaller group, he again got very angry with me, and basically wanted an explanation for why I wasn’t as gung-ho about it as he was. I gave a few reasons, but he shot those down. Regardless, at the end of the day I just feel like he doesn’t care about my preference or what I’m comfortable with. This morning he started a facebook group and invited a bunch of people, even more names then he mentioned last night, and started planning with them. I have yet to respond to the group.
Anyway, I give all of this detail because I feel like 3 days after our big long discussions about our relationship, that I was hoping for more effort on his part to compromise with me. Instead, I felt again like he would only ever be happy if we did things exactly his way. We had issues only because I refused to back down from stating what I wanted. I didn’t even tell him “this is what we have to do or else” I just was trying to let him know where I stood and what would work for me. I was kind of shocked with how little he seemed to want to work with me and how little he cared for what I wanted. He just seemed to be mad and upset that I wasn’t as stoked about everything as he was. I was hurt by the fact that he forgot our plans for Friday (then remembered) and completely forgot our plans for Saturday. What’s the point of me making plans with him if he’s just going to conveniently “forget” about them when he has offers from other people that are more in line with what he wants?
I’m sorry I’m rambling here. It’s been a hard day and I’m exhausted. I don’t even want to talk to him about any of it because I’m just…tired. Tired of trying to make this work, tired of feeling like there is something wrong with me because I don’t live my life exactly the way he does.
Thank you for listening, your thoughts on my taking care of myself helped me to not back down from re-stating what it was I wanted from these situations. I fear that our relationship will not survive, however. I feel like a failure, but I don’t know what else I can do without completely sacrificing all of my wants and needs.
March 29, 2017 at 8:54 am #142733KaylaParticipantAnita,
What you said gave me a lot to think about. I feel that if I were to bring up his anxiety, he would flat out deny it. He is open and acknowledges his ADHD, and explains his need for activity and multi-tasking that way. I feel that it would upset him, but I guess I never know until I try.
You’re right to say that it should be win-win. I think from his perspective, he is putting a lot of work into the relationship. From my perspective, the work is not balanced. Even if he does low-key things with me, it’s usually on his terms and when he is available, not necessarily when it’s best for me. Monday night he wanted to watch Netflix with me (so, so rare!), but I had homework to do. In the past, he wants to watch Netflix but after the time when I need to get to bed. I worry that in the future he will bring that up as a time when he wanted to do a low key activity with me but I was unavailable.
Again, you’ve given me a lot to think about here.
March 29, 2017 at 8:28 am #142717KaylaParticipantHi Anita,
Thank you for your reply. A lot of what you said rings very true to me. I struggle because he does communicate well with me- the first man to do so in my life- and we are able to talk about these issues openly. He will listen to what I have to say. Won’t walk away when I’m crying. So these times when we’re “fighting” (really they are just more of long discussions), I feel a good emotional connection to him. But other times…not so much. I feel as if I spend a lot of time attempting to understand him, his needs, and where he is coming from. I don’t always feel that I get the same treatment- that he views my need for more down time and planning as laziness and anxiety, or simply as not making him a priority. He’s said things like “you could put 70% of the effort in at school and still get a 4.0,” but doesn’t seem to understand that I want to put that effort in at school, that it’s important to me. For him, school is a means to an end and his activities are his priority.
He wants me to to come along on his activities because he wants to share the things he loves, and I enjoy these activities too- just not at the intense level he does (I might like a 10 mile bike ride, while he wants to go for 40). He says he wants to share in the things that I love, but says I don’t invite him to do so. And we go back to the me not having time issue.
He’s never once referred to himself as anxious, he doesn’t believe he struggles with anxiety, though my anxiety is always an issue in our relationship. It’s funny that you point that out, because I’ve always secretly guessed that his behavior is anxious behavior due to the fact that he always needs stimulus/distraction and/or to not be alone. He’s one of those people that is on his phone 24/7 and is always doing 4 things at once. I’m more of your steady, want to be present with who I’m with and what I’m doing kind of people. The thing is, when his attention is on me, it’s great. But many times his attention is split if it’s there at all. He was previously in a 12 year relationship, dated a few other women short term in the interim before meeting me, but sometimes I think he just wants the security, stability, and comfort of a long-term relationship without putting in the day-t0-day effort to get there.
I suppose I just worry that I was single for so long, without ever dating (for at least 2-5 years) that I sometimes think I am selfish and needy and don’t make time for others the way that I should. But I do spend a lot of time with him, even if it’s just eating dinner together. But then he’ll say things like “most of the time all we do is I cook dinner for you.” The one thing you said- about him never being satisfied with my efforts- really struck a cord with me. I’m afraid that’s how I feel, but I’m also afraid that my expectations are too high.
- This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by Kayla.
March 29, 2017 at 7:48 am #142709KaylaParticipantI hear you. I wish I could give advice but I’m feeling lost and confused in my own situation at the moment so I feel like I shouldn’t. That being said, I think you have a right to be in a relationship where you feel like an equal partner, where you can share about the things that are important to you, and have someone you can talk to. It’s especially concerning to me that you want to talk about potential difficulties with a long-distance relationship and he is not engaging with you–those are important things to talk about! My S.O. also always wants me to be “fine” or “chill” and I think that’s a lot of pressure to put on a person. You talked about getting engaged- I wonder, how would these issues get better or worse with marriage?
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