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February 1, 2017 at 8:26 am #126536AnonymousGuest
Dear debbie79:
You are welcome. No, I didn’t read your post before last- you posted your first post today at the exact minute I posted my first one to you this morning (a double post).
Nope, I do not believe in signs and divine intervention. Meeting the Deacon- maybe you can get some answers there based on his answers to the questions on their test. I would definitely meet and ask for those answers (hopefully, they will share?)
You wrote in your first post this morning: “He needs to be successful & the best at all he does”- I see where your dissatisfaction regarding Daisy would rain-on-his-parade of needing to be successful in the relationship with you, as well as any dissatisfaction you ever express. But there is no perfect satisfaction I can think of, although he managed well, because you wrote in your original post that all was Perfect.
That is distorted thinking on his part, that expectation or drive to be perfect. And you can’t walk on eggshells so that he doesn’t get alarmed about any unavoidable imperfection in the relationship.
When people are perfectionistic, they entertain all-or-nothing thinking, distorted as well. Either all is Perfect or all is a disaster.
Reads to me that if you did initiate a renewal of the relationship, you will have a big challenge in front of you: his perfectionistic and all-or-nothing thinking which will affect his continuous employment as well as relationships. You will have to somehow… ease him into imperfection and of course, endure those yourself.
So how are you going to ask him for information- do you think an email is a possibility? Present it in such a way that will most likely get you honest answers?
* Regarding the Christmas notes to you and to your parents (those signs…)- maybe those were part of his idea of perfect performance, in the context of the relationship. At some point that drive to perform (and sound) perfect departed from the truth, for him..?
anita
February 1, 2017 at 9:00 am #126540DebbieParticipantAnita –
The Deacon told me to come in Thursday to meet with him & he will go over all the results with me. So I am assuming that he will share this all with me. After all, that was the purpose of this “test” to begin with. For us to learn more about each other & discuss the difficult topics with each other. So I am sure he will share my fiancé’s answers with me. I do believe that the whole “Daisy” situation def. effected us in a negative way. There is no doubt in my mind that he was hopeful that we could all get along & there would be no problems connecting his old way of life (her) & his new (me). He did always say to me that he just wants us all to get along. But not everyone has to love everyone. Not everyone sees things the same way. As I expressed to him, I would respect his friendship with her & I would NEVER tell him who he can & cannot be friends with. That is un-expectable & controlling in my mind. Neither him nor I have would ever want to “Control” each other. I will say this though… during the duration of the wedding preparations, he always wanted to be there. Meet with the vendors, be part of the setting up & planning. His mother is the same way… I know that she felt that this wedding was very expensive, in her opinion. I remember at Thanksgiving, sitting with his Aunts & cousins with him talking about the cost of the wedding & they all felt we were insane for spending that kind of money. When we left, he was upset that everyone was voicing their opinions & he said that it was none of their business & he didn’t want to discuss it any more with anyone other than the two of us. That what it cost & what we wanted was OUR business not anyone else’s. I wonder if that got to him as well… Because he is a “people pleaser”, he was doing what his family/friends are telling him oppose to what he really feels.I come from a big Italian family. We are a very warm & caring family. When we do things, we do them big. I know he had said to me that when he came with me to my cousins wedding in the beginning of May, that made him realize even more that he wanted to marry me & wanted to give me the wedding of my dreams. Do you think that in his mind, he wanted to give me the “Perfect Day” & once the ball was rolling he didn’t know how to get stop it. This could have caused him resentment towards me & our relationship? But because he did not express this to me at the time, there was no way for me to know this & be able to rectify it with him?
You are right, no relationship is ever perfect. And no one should ever have to walk on eggshells to avoid confrontation of hurting your significant other. But that is part of the growth of your relationship, correct? Accepting each others, flaws & all? I can accept that his job is extremely important to him & that it makes him feel good about himself & successful. I want nothing but him to feel good & proud of himself. That is important to me. I can see where his line of thinking would be “All has to be perfect or it is nothing”. How do I get him to realize that it is ok to be less than perfect. No one is & that is ok. We have each other to help us when things feel this way. We can rely on each other for strength when one of us is stronger than the other or when hope seems to be lacking for one us. How can I stress this point to him. Maybe he doesn’t see it this way or cannot let himself think this way. I love him with all my heart. I am willing to endure the struggles & take them on however, I need to know that he wants the same thing & is just as willing to take these things on as I am… that is my fear. That in his distress right now, he cannot see this. He cannot see past the end of his work day… how can I make him look to the future & know that things may be rough right now but not every storm lasts forever, for lack of better words.
As far as email communication, I am concerned that he might misconstrue some of the content. I always thought face to face communication is best. I know that he always preferred to speak with me on the phone oppose to text messages. What is your feelings on that?
February 1, 2017 at 9:31 am #126543AnonymousGuestDear debbie79:
I figured early in your thread, that the wedding expenses/ marriage expenses in the future, clearly played a part in his distress. Being a people pleaser and a bad communicator (your evaluations) leads me to think that for some time he felt conflicted about the expenses but kept going because it made you happy.
I didn’t know if the Deacon will share his test results with you outside your (ex) finance’s presence. If he shares the results with you – that can be enlightening. I hope you share those tomorrow, here.
Regarding mode of communication, I prefer emails over phone calls, face-to-face (and definitely texting!). This is how I communicate with you here, on your thread. I prefer emails because I can take my time reading and re-reading the text, can take my time responding. Maybe it will suit him because he wouldn’t have the pressure to answer right there and then. He can take his time as well. Maybe.
If you compose an email for him (and what you wrote above as potential content there is reasonable)… wonder if you should wait to tomorrow (Deacon’s input). I can help you, if you’d like, in giving you input on it.
anita
February 1, 2017 at 10:10 am #126547DebbieParticipantI would appreciate all the help I can get with this. I am def going to wait to hear what the Deacon has to say tomorrow before I contact him. I was fighting with myself last night. I wanted to text him “I Love You & I Miss You” but I didn’t. I kept it together.
February 1, 2017 at 10:26 am #126548AnonymousGuestDear Debbie79:
Good thinking and self discipline on your part, I say. Will be looking forward to tomorrow’s developments, if you choose to share it here. Anytime you need to post here, today, do so- as long as it helps. Sure is a lot to take in, the recent developments in the last month. So be as gentle as you can with yourself during this difficult time. It is encouraging for me to read how clearly you think and how sensibly you behave under these difficult circumstances.
anita
February 1, 2017 at 11:01 am #126550DebbieParticipantIt is not an easy road. Believe me, there are plenty of times that I know I am not thinking clearly & want to do rash things, but then I think about what just occurred & realize, this is not just me that is hurting. It is my fiancé as well. There are two of us here in this situation. I cannot only think of myself, although, I am aware, in order to make healthy decisions, I need to be that way myself.
Of course it doesn’t help me either when all my friends around me are telling me that I need to be pissed at him. I have to get it through my head that HE LEFT ME! HE CHOSE TO WALK AWAY! HE SAID HE DOESN’T WANT THIS ANYMORE! THAT HIS FEELINGS HAVE CHANGED & HE WAS TRYING TO MAKE HIMSELF BELIEVE HE STILL LOVES ME… not the easiest words to hear. I know what was said. I was there. I heard & read everything he said. I play it over & over again in my mind. It’s a continuous loop that will not stop.
One of my best friends is amazing though with me. he has given me some insight from a “Man’s Point of View” (mind you he lives out of state & has never met mi fiancé). he explained to me that for many men, happiness is built on how successful you are & with my fiancé, he takes pride in his job & how well he does it. He said right now, he feels like he drowning. Everything for him is happening all at once & falling down around him. He said that it can be an overwhelming feeling. And some people cannot handle the pressure & basically implode. And with someone with like my fiancé, who holds everything in to begin with & does not want to hurt anyone & keep everyone happy, when things get rough & he feels out of control, he will run. He said he need to learn coping skills with this. he actually suggested in a couple of weeks or so, when I am more strong & put back together, I should write him a letter. Simply state to him that I love him & am still in love with him. Explain to him that I understand all the pressure & stress that he is under at this time & to let him know that the door is always open for him to communicate with me. he said to make sure I reiterate in this letter that I KNOW, at this time we are not together as a couple but, know that I will always be here for him because above all, I love him as a person. He said to add in there that if he ever wants to talk or if his feelings ever change, I will be here…maybe not in the capacity that I once was, because I know that I need to move on, but none the less I am always here.
what is your opinion on that?
February 1, 2017 at 11:25 am #126552AnonymousGuestDear debbie79:
I don’t think that would be effective. Think: under what circumstances did he fall in love with you? It was during the time you expressed to him your weakness, your insecurity, why you had your guard up; how you were hurt in the past. It was in those circumstances that he was most loving, patient, supportive.
I participate in this forum because I learn every day. Maybe only yesterday, I would have agreed with your male friend, maybe I suggested such communicating to him myself earlier. As I think of it now, I realize- what makes a person “fall in love”- what draws one person to another- is of course, not the same for everyone.
If being the helper, the fixer, the strong-one in a relationship is what does it for your fiancé- than that is what will continue to attract him, to draw him. So when you suggest to be there for him- that is likely to make him feel weaker and so, less attracted to you.
To understand how his mind works, best you can, and at the same time, to not be manipulative- that is possible. It is about approaching a person wisely without compromising your honesty. And so, I think- at this point of my thinking- that it will be wiser to approach him the same way that you did before, the way that did attract him- that is, respecting his real need to feel strong, focusing on his strength- but honestly.
That would be something like: “I always admired your strength, and because of your strength, when you asked me to marry you, it was my second best moment in my life (after the birth of my son). I miss you so much; miss your love and your strength. I realize no one is perfectly strong; no one is beyond breaking when things get tough. And I trust that your strength will carry you through this rough time in your life.”
That could be it, something like that. It is not dishonest to focus on his strength even when he is in the midst of weakness. He is stronger than he thinks and you are reminding him of that…
This is likely to comfort him at this time. Not flooding him with expressions indicating what he perceives to be his weakness. Later on, if the relationship revives, you can do your part in further improving the ongoing communication with him, which clearly will need much improvement.
anita
February 1, 2017 at 11:41 am #126553DebbieParticipantI am just so afraid that I will lose him… and YES, I do know that it is a real possibility. I am not that naïve in my thinking. Especially when all my friends around me are so negative. My therapist told me that people project their own insight on a specific situation because of their own personal experiences. In other words, if someone has had only negative experiences with relationships or a failed marriage, they will tend to think more on that side of things.
I can say this… my last relationship was an extremely, abusive (physically & mentally) unhealthy one. My ex stripped everything away from me including my own identity. It took me three years to rebuild myself back to where I once was, obviously with many more scars. As I have said earlier in my post, it took me a long time to open up to my fiancé. I was waiting for the “Other shoe to drop” because he was too good to be true in my eyes. I guess in my mind I built him up to be this almost “Superhero”. But I know he is only human. And all humans are flawed. We all have strengths & weaknesses. And I know that life is not all sunshine & roses either. We all have our ups & our downs. I just never have felt so strongly in a relationship with someone. It was like we balanced each other out. When I was negative, he brought me up. When he was having a bad day, I made him feel better. The fact that there were no signs that he was stressing out over OUR relationship or the wedding just took me by complete & utter surprise. YES, I know he was far more stressed than usual with work. And I know he has said more than once to me that he used to love going to work. He felt accomplished but now, every morning he dreaded going in. He did tell me when he broke it off with me that this job was suppose to be such a good thing but it has turned out to be a curse.
I now have in my mind, if everything was stressing him out so much, maybe it was me? Maybe it was our relationship… Maybe it was forced. But to go through all of everything that he did. To spend the money he did… take out a personal loan, could it all have been an “act”?? To show that we have the “Perfect Relationship”?
Oh God! That scares me & literally makes me sick to my stomach!
February 1, 2017 at 12:59 pm #126558AnonymousGuestDear Debbie:
Was it Shakespeare that said The world is a stage and we are all mere actors? In a way, in many ways, really, we are stumbling in the dark, bumping into walls and we get by pretending we know what we are doing… I see most people this way. I definitely stumbled in the dark for decades and it is only recently that I am seeing so much in what was once darkness. At first, when I started seeing, it scared me too and made me feel sick to my stomach.
Your therapist said that everyone projects their personal experience- of course, and so does he. Every person processes objective information through his/ her subjective brain- subjective, because the brain is way, way more impressed by personal experience than by information we read in a book, or many books, even a PhD worth library.
I can tell you a few facts and I invite opposing opinions on the matter from any of your friends, therapist, readers here, anyone:
1. The relationship was not perfect; he is not perfect and neither are you.
2. He was emotionally invested in the relationship $25,000+ worth invested.
3. The relationship itself distressed him, not just his work situation. If the relationship was all loving and comforting, he would have adhered to it more, and he wouldn’t have let it go.
4. He is the only dependable source of information for you, if he gave you his honest thoughts and feelings and if you were calm enough to accurately process that information (instead of denying it, ignoring it, editing it in your brain).
5. Regarding the prognosis, what will-be, no one can tell the future. It doesn’t look good because he is not talking to you.Debbie, if your sense of safety with him was based on a delusion, wishful thinking, magic… it is better the bubble deflates now than later. Better before than after the fancy wedding. I believe seeing reality is better than not. The comfort in delusion is temporary and there is a heavy price to pay later.
anita
February 1, 2017 at 1:06 pm #126563DebbieParticipantI understand all of that…completely. So in turn, I believe what you are telling me is that I have to base this situation on what is fact at the present time. In my case, fact is that he is no longer with me because he chose not to be. If he wanted this relationship & wanted it to work out then that is what he would be doing at the present time. The mere fact that he has not tried to communicate with me, the fact that he has called the vendors & cancelled, the fact that there is no communication, means that I need to face the “facts”, reality & understand the fact it is over. Am I translating this properly?
February 1, 2017 at 6:35 pm #126570AnonymousGuestDear Debbie:
Yes, excellent. I am impressed by your clear thinking- really, I don’t come across such clarity often. I didn’t have it in my mind as clearly as you put it. Crystal clear.
After I posted last to you, I was overwhelmed myself and went on a walk, did some yard work. I thought about the quote below, wanted to tell you about it.
A Winston Churchill quote: “Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.”
Using it for women as well- and using it here for you- you came upon the truth in your last post. Truth such as this causes anxiety and distress, so most likely you will forget it and pretend it didn’t happen.
This is key in making our minds healthier and our lives meaningful: to come across the truth and not run away.
What you wrote are the facts, the bare reality of the situation. Looking more into the situation can be valuable in understanding more, how it happened, why… but other than trying to understand and learn from it, all else is a futile wishful, make believe, magical thinking- might as well contact the spell caster who spammed here, on your thread.
Hope you do post again.
anita
February 3, 2017 at 12:14 pm #126664AnonymousGuestDear Debbie:
Just in case you are reading this, I would like to give you my final thoughts, having read through all your writings and having time to think more. I will make this as short as possible.
Your relationship with this man was not abusive. He was not abusive to you and you were not abusive to him. From all your writings, it reads to me like the two of you are decent people.
His job problem, a big stressor, your dissatisfaction with his friend, and any other challenge in his life contributed greatly to his stress level-
But the stress within the relationship with you started from the beginning, when you asked him “all the time, did you feel pressured to get engaged?”- you sensed his distress, this is why you asked him, repeatedly.
“His answer always was no… I WANT TO MARRY YOU! I would randomly ask him, joking around, you still want to marry me & his answer was always the same, ‘of course I want to marry you! You are the best thing that has every happened to me! I love you & you are going to be my wife’”.
This answer as well as the many loving expressions throughout, were about Debbie-pleasing. He is not only (other) People Pleaser, he has been a Debbie-Pleaser. Saying and doing the right things to please you, including planning on a big wedding and paying the vendors ahead of time.
At one point, the payoff he enjoyed from pleasing you, that is, that you thoughts so highly of him, thinking he is an amazing, most loving, patient guy, leading a “Perfect relationship”- this payoff became way less than his stress. In other words, he suffered within the relationship more and more, until he lost his loving feelings.
When you broke down and cried about his friend, he may have realized then, that his Debbie-Pleasing efforts were not successful. All his sacrifice and you were not happy, after all.
When he told you at the end that he can’t do this anymore, he meant, he can’t Debbie-Please anymore.
Your part in the failure of this relationship is your attachment to the “and they lived happily ever after” fairytales so many women have been expecting for centuries, looking up to him to meet your fairytale expectations of a Perfect Prince, a fairytale, fancy wedding… and a happily-ever-after walking into the sunset living.
You detected his distress but conveniently, and understandably believed his words fitting a prince’s talk in those fairytales.
I think he felt affection and love for you, but at one point, his Debbie-Pleasing ways drained his loving feelings.
If you got back with him, and he went back to his Debbie-Pleasing ways, and you went back to the Fairytale expectations, another meltdown will happen, or a loveless, lonely, angry relationship will follow. If you got back with him, you will need to get to know him as the man that he is (not the perfect prince that he is not), and he will need to be that man that he is.
Is he or would he be able to just be himself, as imperfect as he is- I don’t know. He probably felt that you wouldn’t love him if he was just him. Thing is, he may have been correct. If you did get back together, you may not like him for who he is.
anita
February 6, 2017 at 8:57 am #126881DebbieParticipantDear Anita,
Thank you for everything you have said. It does make sense to me. And YES, he is a people pleaser as well as a “Debbie-pleaser” as you wrote, BUT I need him to understand that regardless of his flaws, regardless of his imperfections, regardless of the less than perfect relationship or marriage that could have been, I STILL LOVE HIM with every ounce of my being & that doesn’t just go away within a day, a week, a month… these feelings remain whole & intact for me!
Saturday I received a text from him asking me if it would be alright if his roommate drop off my things at my house (engagement party gifts, wedding band & cash). I was on the phone with my therapist when I received this text. He advised me to ask him what time his roommate would be coming to drop the items off & make sure I am not around when they come. He said the last thing I need is to see her & for her to see me & the state I am in. So I text him back asking what time would she be coming & he replied, whatever works best for me. That she was available all day. With that, his roommate text me. She said that she hoped I was ok & that she was sorry she didn’t reach out but she felt it was best not to get in the middle of the situation. She asked me when she could drop the things off to me because she didn’t want to leave them outside because there was the diamond band & cash. I text her back simply stating, I am not going to be home today. My parents will be home around 12:30 so she can drop it off then & they could receive it.
I made sure I was out of the house & gave my mom instructions to keep it short & sweet, get my things & leave it alone. I told her to call me once she left. So around 1:15 I got the call from my mother that the roommate had just left & she was not leaving without talking to my mom. It was like she wanted answers.
She told my mother that she was so sorry for everything & what had happened & asked if I was ok. My mom just shrugged her shoulders & told her she is doing the best she can under these circumstances. The roommate then said she was very worried about me & wanted to reach out but felt awkward due to the situation. Plus my fiancé had asked her to wait a little longer until the “dust had settled some”. She told my mother that none of them (meaning all of my fiancés friends) saw this coming. They were all in shock. She said that he has been really out of it & just not himself. She said that Thursday, 1/12/17, when everything first occurred, when he got home from work he broke down crying & having a break down. She asked him what was wrong & that he said he is beyond stressed with everything & he was now having doubts about the marriage. She told him that he needed to talk to me about everything. She told him that he needs to be an adult & not prolong this if he is having these doubts, to TALK TO ME! So that was what she thought was going to happen that day when I came over to see him, NOT that he was going to end everything with me. She said not to bring up any sore subjects but even “Daisy” was shocked by this whole thing. That literally three weeks ago he tore into her about disrespecting me & how much he loved me & that she can no longer be in the wedding because she did not support us a couple. She said that her & “Daisy” as well as all of his other friends have NEVER seen him like this & most of them have been friends with him for 17+ years! My mother just said, well I will tell you this, he will NEVER find anyone who loves him as much as she did & he didn’t just hurt her, he hurt a lot of people. The roommate said she knows & saw the love first hand. She said that she told him that he needs to stop talking with everyone about this & talk to the one person that this involves, DEBBIE.
It gave me a little piece if mind knowing that he is not ok or still not himself. It made me feel better that he is hurting as well & not relieved or glad to be rid of me. I guess it still gives me hope, for lack of a better phrase, as stupid as that may sound.
Today, I am not doing so well. This weekend I angry because I felt that he sent his roommate because he was too cowardly to face me because of what he did. It got me through the weekend until today… I am blue. I want to just reach out to him! I want to shake him! Lay everything out on the line. I want to tell him that I love him for everything he is, not everything he thinks he needs to be or provide for me as a man. I don’t care about those things, That yes, I got carried away with the big wedding and as you out it, “Happily Ever After” fairytale. But I am a girl & it is natural for me to have those feelings. Yes, my insecurities may have played a role on him thinking that I am too dependent on him BUT these are not things to run from & give up on when times are tough & stressful. These are the times we need to grasp these issues & work on them. Work to see if there is resolution…
If what his roommate says is true & he is still not himself, then I know this is probably not the best time to say all these things to him. I understand that he needs to work on himself right now to fix whatever it is he is going through. But everyday that goes by, every minute that ticks on, my love for him remains the same, the pain grows & it gets harder to stay away from him…
Does that make sense?
February 6, 2017 at 9:41 am #126885AnonymousGuestDear Debbie:
Look at this:
In your last post you wrote: “She (the roommate) said that Thursday, 1/12/17, when everything first occurred, when he got home from work he broke down crying & having a break down. She asked him what was wrong & that he said he is beyond stressed with everything & he was now having doubts about the marriage. She told him that he needed to talk to me about everything.”
In your original post, you described the conversation you had with him that same day, I believe, that Thursday: “I asked him if he wanted me to come over & he said he was so tired, then passed a comment to me, ‘see I can’t even give our relationship any time… I don’t know if I can do this anymore’. I panicked! I asked him if he was breaking up with me & he said, I don’t know… When I got there (his house) he met me at the door. He looked beyond defeated & upset. We went to talk & all he could get was I can’t do this anymore. I am at my breaking point. I can’t handle another thing at work…I can’t give our relationship the time it needs, I can’t give you what you deserve. I can’t even get excited about the wedding because it is stressing me out. I don’t know how I am going to be able to pay for it… I just can’t do this anymore. I asked him, don’t you love me anymore? He said yes, of course I Love you but I can’t do this anymore. So I asked him are you breaking up with me? He replied, I just can’t do this, you aren’t listening to me. Again I asked him, ARE you breaking up with me? Again he replied with you don’t understand, I just can’t do it anymore. So for a third time I said, ARE YOU ENDING THIS? He shook his head yes, then muttered out the word YES.”
Do you see that you are the one initiating the breakup of the relationship, not him? Do you see that you pressured him- while he was at a breaking point, very distressed, to end the relationship and he complied?
anita
February 6, 2017 at 9:43 am #126886DebbieParticipantSo now what do I do?? Is this too late? Is it damaged beyond repair?
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