Dear Seaturtle:

“He doesn’t like to talk about emotions or feelings, I have to tiptoe around this, which is hard cause I do want to. He often feels good and ‘closer to me’ when we do talk about feelings but starting is super delicate“-

– it is super delicate for him because part of him is super hurt (his inner child). He doesn’t want to be made aware of the hurt, so he keeps it pushed down and he doesn’t want to bring it up by talking about it. But once he does (you must be very good at encouraging him to talk, and I am not surprised that you are), he feels better. It’s like a kid with a toothache who doesn’t want to go to the dentist because the treatment will hurt more… but after the dentist, the kid feels so much better,

“Interesting. I haven’t thought of my awareness coming from something ‘positive’ from ‘childhood.’ For some reason I felt it was negative childhood and positive adulthood that caused forced awareness after being made to feels so badly, so hurt you eventually start to wonder why. What do you think about this?”-

-(1) “so hurt you eventually start to wonder why“- imagine a child being so very, very hurt and so very, very alone with his hurt, that he is.. too hurt and too alone (no one there to listen and answer) to wonder why. Resigned to his questions being unanswered, he/ she stops asking. (This doesn’t seem the case with you or with N).

(2) “negative childhood and positive adulthood“- No childhood (and no adulthood) is all negative or all positive. As I see it, the positive part of your childhood is the part of your mother’s behavior toward you that made you feel seen. The positive parts of N’s childhood may be in that his father expressed to N that N was helping him feel better by talking to him and listening to N’s input; and his mother (taking this from her giving others the opportunity to win in that game you all played recently, instead of rushing to take the win herself)- let him win otherwise when he was growing up.. so both parents gave him a sense of personal power (vs weakness/ learned helplessness).

“After not speaking to my mom for a year, ages 16-17, my heart ached for her so much that I forced compartmentalized ‘my mom’ and ‘the woman who hurt my dad/family.‘ Also, living with my dad gave me insight as to why my mom ‘rebelled,’… I stayed with her for several months, which by the way made my dad upset…  When I stayed with my mom, we would smoke weed together… When I stayed with her for a certain amount of time I would start to feel a little unhinged, like I needed a routine. My dad’s home was very routine, he had a gym there and had all his meals planned in the fridge. By saying my dad’s home had more ‘safety’ what I really mean is consistency and routine. I would swing back and forth between my mom’s and dad’s, one with fun: takeout food, random activities, crafts, I think my mom was trying to get me to ‘like her’ again, so she just gave me whatever I wanted, this is what I meant by feeling free-er. Then the other with reliability and structure: healthy food, workouts, waking up early, no excuses for days off.

“Wow I am having a realization. I have felt this way in my life for a long time. I switch between structure/routine and impulsivity/desires. When I am in one for a certain amount of time, about 4 weeks, I CRAVE the other.. This is actually something I have felt was ‘wrong’ with me. It affects my work, I often get inspired by the structure of my job, then after too much I start to call out of work, stay home and paint/whatever craft I am currently inspired by. I have been fired by jobs because of this and told by two employers I take too much time off.. But I have yet to find a job I care enough about, I get to the point of not caring if they fire me cause I want a new routine anyway. Acting in plays, classes and improv are actually the only activities I don’t desire to cancel on or take breaks from.”-

– This is all VERY meaningful (analyzing the above quote):

“I forced compartmentalized ‘my mom’ and ‘the woman who hurt my dad/family… living with my dad gave me insight as to why my mom ‘rebelled,’“-

– children naturally compartmentalize things; it is known as the all or nothing/ black and white thinking of children (this OR that, not this AND that). Some adults keep this childhood thinking as adults: it is known as the all-or-nothing/ black-and-white category of distorted thinking (another category of distorted thinking is the emotional reasoning I mentioned earlier).

For some time, according to your black-and-white thinking, Dad was Good and Mom was Bad.. But then you figured- after living with him for a while- that Dad had some bad in him and Mom therefore was not all bad (she rebelled against.. his badness)- a maturing, balanced thinking.

“I stayed with her for several months, which by the way made my dad upset“- the traces of you in his house (his words: my house, not our- dad’s and daughter’s house) made him upset (“any trace of myself in ‘his’ house, he would get upset“), but having no trace of you (when you lived with your mom) also made him upset.. So his upset-ness about you living with your mom was not about love for you…

“When I stayed with my mom, we would smoke weed together… When I stayed with her for a certain amount of time I would start to feel a little unhinged, like I needed a routine. My dad’s home was very routine, he had a gym there and had all his meals planned in the fridge. By saying my dad’s home had more ‘safety’ what I really mean is consistency and routine“-

-Unfortunately, the routine in his home was not limited to gym and meals (it would have been wonderful if it was), but included those house cleaning sessions (“Every 3 months, not an exaggeration, we would have what he began to call ‘house cleaning”).. him complaining about the traces you left in his house and otherwise, accusing you of being ungrateful and of not attending to his needs for attention and affection.

“I would swing back and forth between my mom’s and dad’s, one with fun: takeout food, random activities, crafts, I think my mom was trying to get me to ‘like her’ again’“- your father wanted more of your attention and affection that was appropriate for a daughter to give her father, and your mother wanted your affection back. Both parents operating like children, wanting their daughter’s affection like children need their mother’s affection. So, you didn’t get to be a carefree child/ teenager in neither home.

“So she just gave me whatever I wanted, this is what I meant by feeling free-er“-

– except she didn’t (couldn’t) give you the freedom to be a care-free child to a self-reliant, emotionally mature mother.

“Then the other with reliability and structure: healthy food, workouts, waking up early, no excuses for days off“-

– and.. no excuses for being a care-free child to an emotionally self-reliant and mature father.

“Wow I am having a realization. I have felt this way in my life for a long time. I switch between structure/routine and impulsivity/desires. When I am in one for a certain amount of time, about 4 weeks, I CRAVE the other.. Acting in plays, classes and improv are actually the only activities I don’t desire to cancel on or take breaks from”-

– I think that what hatchling needs is to be a care-free child, an opportunity she didn’t have living with mom.. or with dad. I think that you get a taste of this freedom when you act in plays and do improvs.

Routine (at your father’s) that includes a bad routine will not promote self-discipline. No routine (at your mother’s) will not promote self-discipline either.

And now to the rest of yesterday’s first message: “This may be why I have such an intense desire to increase my awareness, because of the previous lack“- I think that in my case, my intense desire to increase my awareness since I was a teenager, perhaps since earlier.. was about my desperate need at the time to (rephrased now).. to parent my very emotionally immature mother.. to raise her, so to speak, so that she will be the mature, reliable, strong mother I needed her to be.

“What is really cool, is my current roommate is one of my good friends from high-school… She said I have always been very cautious of the type of people I spent my time with, shying away from toxic people…“-  severely immature parents are toxic to their children. Even if and when they try to be good parents.

Your second post of yesterday: “Does hatchling need a more nurturing partner or even none at all?“- she needs to heal from her bad experience with her two emotionally immature parents. Your partner cannot provide you with this kind of healing.

“I am doing everything I can and I still feel overwhelmed by hatchling’s responses to N“- you may need professional help, quality psychotherapy. Part of it will be learning and practicing emotion regulation skills, so to lessen that Overwhelm Factor.

“But even you have said he is the perfect partner“- well, closer to perfect than most, in my estimation, from the totality of what you shared,

“so why is it so hard for me to feel safe and rested“- my answer: because outside your time acting in plays, doing improvs and certain other activities, you need more of the care-free child experience.. Hatchling needs it. She needs to feel that there is someone strong and mature that she can rely on.

N cannot be that strong and mature person for her.

“Wanting to run away now is a similar feeling to when I would want to run away from my dad”- hatchling wants to run away to a place where she can be (I am repeating myself, I know) a care free child, a state of mind possible when and where there is someone mature and strong, self-reliant and not so needy- to depend on.

Your most recent post of today: “So is the answer through the relationship?“- no, like I wrote above: the answer is outside the relationship. N is not your therapist. He couldn’t possibly be your therapist even if he was a professional therapist because the therapeutic relationship is not possible for two people who are involved with each other in a romantic (and sexual) relationship.

“I started to have this feeling about a year into the relationship but the past year has been the ‘8 months my mind hasn’t rested’ (the title of my first forum). Does ending this cycle require me to be alone with hatchling more? or to actually spend more time with N to build trust?“-

– ending this cycle aka healing requires that for as long as you stay in a relationship with N, that you completely give up on the expectation that he becomes the .. strong, mature parent that you did not have. He can not succeed in this role long-term (beyond making you feel good for a moment here and there). He is not your Answer.

Trusting him to be the parent that you need will lead to ongoing frustration on your part and on his. It’s a misplaced, inappropriate trust.. similar perhaps to.. your father’s misplaced, inappropriate trust or expectation that you will be.. the strong, mature and attentive mother that he didn’t have.

“For example, like I mentioned in my post, November 4, 2023 at 1:33 pm… The next morning feeling so delicate, it really felt like he kicked me while I was down by texting me so coldly, when I asked when we were meeting for lunch he says ‘I ate lunch at 10am lol”, like this message is such a brush off and the “lol,” like does he have zero sensitivity?'”-

-Objectively, this is what happened: you asked him: When are we meeting for lunch? and he answered: I ate lunch at 10am lol.

The rest in the quote above is how you felt/ your subjective experience: “feeling so delicate, it really felt like he kicked me while I was down.. so coldly… such a brush off.. zero sensitivity“.

Back to what happened objectively, the way I understand it: he was hungry at 10 am so he ate. Maybe it crossed his mind that you wouldn’t like it, but he brushed it off saying to himself something like: no matter what I do or don’t, I get in trouble with Seaturtle anyway.. so I’m going to eat now.  He later inserted an lol into the text so to make light of things, so  to .. lighten up your expected heavy overreaction.

As a matter of fact, he recently told you that you were bringing him down.. down with your heavy overreactions…? Maybe he is angry at you for feeling like he has to walk on eggshells, that any little misdeed or perceived misdeed can cause a bomb to go off.

Back to your subjective experience of what happened: “feeling so delicate, it really felt like he kicked me while I was down.. so coldly… such a brush off.. zero sensitivity“- what if you, in this incident, are expressing zero sensitivity to him: not being sensitive to how difficult it is for him to walk on eggshells?

“I do not understand this lack of empathy and sensitivity from him and this honestly just triggered another panic attack… THEN the next evening, Sunday night, he was to come over for dinner and he was an hour late! Just kicked again while I was down”-

– maybe he was an hour late because he overworked. You said that it is difficult for him not to answer calls in regard to his business. And maybe he is getting angry with you and is giving up on the idea (and your expectation) that it is possible for him to NOT trigger you.

“Honestly I literally felt like he just wanted me to be cold like his mother, but if he is going to try to put me into that box I want to be far away from him”- N is a nice, hard working young man who is being mistaken for some other person (your father). What if you are putting him into that box, the box of being cold like your father…?

“I haven’t talked to him about the CALLOUS text messages or being late, on top of everything that had just happened!” – N is not CALLOUS (but may be in the process of becoming callous with you). It’s your father who was and is CALLOUS with you. Think of this, if you will: there is a real-life universe and an alternate, or a parallel universe. Hatchling used to live in a real-life universe: her childhood, when she was a real-life child.

Currently, hatchling is living in a parallel universe where N is her father: an immature parent who is unempathetic, cold and callous.

“with love, hatchling and possibly Seaturtle in defense of her“- hatchling needed defending in that real-life universe of her childhood. But because for her (as it is for any inner child), there is no distinction between past and present, she is now living, to a great extent, in a parallel universe where N is her father. Hatchling has unfinished business with her father and she is- and has been trying for a long while-  trying to resolve this unfinished business by proxy of N (using N as a substitute for her father) by either turning her father into an empathetic, sensitive, attentive good father,  OR leaving him.. breaking up with him.

anita