Hi TeaK,

I think she didn’t do confrontation.  She would shut down… it’s where I learned the behavior, I think.

She did relapse.  Told me about it, then called her sponsor (after an absence of over two months), and started showing back up at Zoom meetings, once or twice a week.  She never said much before, and that behavior still holds.  She won’t ‘open up’ as I learned to do, very reticent and not forthcoming with much.  I think she’ll stay there until she feels safe in opening up some.  She isn’t ready to “drop the rock” yet.

She’s attended at least one in-person meeting locally, and is planning more.  We’ll see.  She did share these details at our meetings.  Her abrupt relocation has elements of the so-called “geographical cure,” where you leave the mess behind and start fresh elsewhere.  Only issue being, wherever you go, ‘there you are.’  Same person, same problems, new location.  Just quit her job, threw some things in the car, and started driving West.  She was still in contact with me along the way, and for awhile after she got there… then sent me a “dear John” email in early December.  Didn’t hear from her for months,  then she started with the Zoom meetings again.  Makes it a point to greet our old ‘regulars’… everyone but me.  So I’m definitely a problem of some kind for her.  Not my problem now.  I got the message, and am moving on.  If she wants to get in contact, she knows how.  I’m not holding my breath anymore.

I actually don’t really blame myself, not this time.  I don’t see how I could have acted any differently, and stayed honest to myself and what I was feeling.  Feels like a case of , ‘hey gave it my best, but it just didn’t work.’  I can live with that.  it’s an honest failure, and a valuable lesson.

Okay, this is bizarre.  My browser started ‘refusing’ to post.  I’ve typed several long-ish replies (don’t know any other kind 🙂    ) to your last two posts, and none of them “took.”  Seems to be working now, though.  We’ll try it again.

Thank you both for your thoughts and suggestions.  TeaK, your take on things is pretty close.  It *is* AA that cracked my shell and started drawing me out, and maybe that left me ‘vulnerable’ in a way to opening further… but too much , too soon, and in an inappropriate direction.

Time and distance are working their magic.  I feel bad for ruining a friendship that was of mutual support, by trying to make it into something it was not.  I regret depriving her of what was a source of support and encouragement (for a while, at least).  She’s on the other side of the country, lonely (said as much while we were still talking), and I *could* have been there for her still, had I not shifted my thinking from supporting her to what I wanted instead.

I like your suggestion to examine exactly what I was feeling, and why I was so eager to reach out and make a connection.  I do my best thinking this way, putting things “on paper” and going over it… helps keep me focused, and enables me go come back to where I was if I get off on a tangent.  WHEN I get off on a tangent.  🙂

My mom was supportive… but silent in the face of stepfather’s words.  If she had anything to say about it, she did so in private; I never saw it.  I took her silence as agreement with what he was saying.

Wife is not really hostile, but the support is ‘selective,’ and control is an issue (lot of the criticism comes from that, not doing things the way she thinks I should, or going “overboard”); she has her issues, as I have mine.  I’m coming to realize that it’s that ‘control’ that’s getting to me, along with the gunnysacking (bringing up the past to make a point in the present).

I think I *am* doing what you said: seeing myself with new, different eyes.  They don’t see deeply or very far yet, but in time.  Getting a much better sense of boundaries, of what’s acceptable and what isn’t, instead of just taking it all.

Anita, I couldn’t agree more with your take.  With the perspective that a little distance is providing, I can see that it would almost certainly have been a bad outcome all around.

Too much, too soon.  Need to crawl before walking, walk before running, run before sprinting.  Maybe in time we can see about flying.  Baby steps first.  I’ll take this whole thing as a “fore-warned is fore-armed,” and be more on top of things if and as they develop.

This is a test post.  Replies have stopped “taking” using FireFox.  Trying this with Chrome.

Hi Anita… that seems an accurate enough summation.  The old saw, “Marry in haste, repent at leisure” often comes to mind.  It was an “impulse marriage;” just seemed like ‘the right thing to do’ at the moment.  We were both out “in the world,” on our own, for the first time, and maybe the attraction was that of familiarity in new and at times stressful environments.

I just look back at who, what, and how I was at that time (which was a very confusing time as well), and I truly had no business being either in the Military OR getting married, to anyone.  I don’t think I was truly qualified to make either decision informedly, in the way that a child cannot sign a legally binding contract.

We’ve been together for over fifty years.  Met in the seventh grade; drifted apart and back together a bit… then clinched things with marriage.  I can’t imagine what she saw in me… maybe a tractable “fixer-upper?”

I’m sad at the way my friendship with my AA ‘girlfriend’ ended.  I’m also relieved that I didn’t have to look into my wife’s eyes, the woman I’ve shared almost all of my life with, ‘for richer or for poorer, for better or for worse, in sickness and in health’… and tell her that I was in love (or so I thought) with somebody else.  I don’t think I could live with myself for doing that, assuming I worked up the resolve and courage to do so.  I can’t knowingly inflict that kind of pain/harm on someone, just to buy my own (anticipated-but-not-assured) happiness.  I also don’t think said ‘girlfriend’ would be happy with what was left afterwards, even had she been so inclined.  Being wired the way I seem to be, I’d obsess over it, and I’m sure it would have overshadowed pretty much everything, ‘poisoning the waters.’   I’m told that nothing happens by mistake, and that things happen for a reason.  Not sure I believe in that (willing to admit the possibility, given I don’t know everything), but it seems that it worked out for the best for the ‘girlfriend,’ for my wife, and most likely for me as well.

Had my wife not pursued me initially, I’d most likely be living alone now (assuming I was still alive at all, which I think is a generous assumption).  I don’t think I’m “cut out” to mesh well with others.  STILL far too self-absorbed, bouncing around in my own little world, which I have to be yanked out of if she wants my attention, for the most part.  It’s just how I am, not a deliberate choice.  It’s my “default state,” to use a programming term (not a programmer, just familiar with what goes into it).  I can haul myself out of it, but it’s an effort of will, and requires steady attention.  It’s “work,” not something that comes naturally.  Also still far too apprehensive, and overly concerned with others’ opinion of me.  People = anxiety, worry, stress, and masks.  No people = me being content, puttering with some project, or sketching plans for some idea for another project, just doing whatever.  No real worries, other than a generalized sense of uneasiness at interfacing with ‘the world.’

Not sure what this says about me, or what to do with it.  AA says when I’m not sure, the best thing to do is nothing.  Which is where I’m at.  Finally fully realizing the degree of how discontented I am, and have been, but caught between the rock and hard place of loyalty -vs- personal happiness.  I don’t hate her; I bear her no ill will for anything (we’re all trying to get through, and we all do what we think we have to do to do it – – you operate with what you know and what you have at the time), I wouldn’t want to see her hurt in any way, I’d help or support her in anything… but it still feels like two separate individuals, who happen to live in the same house… with a lot of shared history.  Some good, some not so good.  We function well enough as a couple; she’s strong where I’m not, and vice versa.  Two partial people making up one effective whole one?  Don’t know about such things; my area of native expertise runs more to things and systems than to people.

It’s far from an intolerable situation… I just know that much better is possible.  I don’t know if a “start over” is possible at this late date… too much water under the bridge that would always be the 600 lb gorilla in the room.  I could continue as is and it would be okay… just not great.  Didn’t even know what ‘great’ was until I met “her,” and even that turns out to be more me projecting my desires *onto* her than anything else.  Still… it did wake something up in me that I’m still looking at, trying to understand what is is… and what to do with it, if anything.

As ever, thank you for your time and your thoughtful replies!

Hi Anita,

It’s the “paste” function that doesn’t work here; the source of that ‘paste’ is not relevant.  “Copy” simply places the highlighted text or image into temporary memory storage (“Clipboard”), and “Paste” dumps the content of the ‘clipboard’ into the active input field of a document or web page (such as this ‘reply to’ text entry box).

Hate to spin off on a technical tangent; it’s a little like my Zoom meetings, where the technology can interfere with the flow of a meeting sometimes: problems logging in, people forgetting to mute or unmute their microphones, frozen or choppy video, stuttering or slow audio (which ironically enough can sound like the speaker is pretty well sloshed 🙂   ), and other minor things that pop up.

Besides… it’s over.  All I can do is be who I am, and the real sting for me is that this was the first time I tried to be fully and authentically who I am (or who I see myself to be), and to have that first foray end like this is disheartening.  What I was surprised to learn from all this was the apparent depth of my desire for a clean start, to shed the baggage of my past.  To be seen with fresh eyes that don’t also see all of the not-so-good things that happened in years past, as is the case with my current situation.  When my wife looks at me, she sees more her idea of who I am, and a lot of past associations… sort of a composite image-over-time, not who I am right now.  It’s tough to get past things when they keep getting brought up on a regular basis.  There are things I’m trying to improve about myself and my behaviors, and when I frequently “get my nose rubbed in it,” it’s both irritating and engenders a feeling of “what’s the point, what’s the use?”

Of course, I know that the point, the use, is for me to improve myself *for* myself; improving myself for others is simply a by-product of that.  Still… it feels like trying to swim with a scuba-diver’s lead weight belt on.  Discouraging.

I don’t know… there were two brief moments with her (AA friend) in which I never felt so very close to another person; mutually understood and shared suffering was one moment (both of us perusing a “Do you think you have a drinking problem?” pamphlet, and “comparing notes” about the behaviors listed there (“I’ve done that…”   “You have??  ME TOO!”), and it was a moment that I think lifted a guilty load from us both.  The other… harder to describe, but extremely emotional – – for me, anyway.  I wanted more of those moments, understandably enough, I think, especially since moments like that have been so lacking for me prior to them.

Enough wallowing.  It’s done, and the only way I could have done anything differently would have been to do what I’ve always done: cobble up a new mask to fit this person, so I would be accepted (or at least, not rejected).  If I need to be someone other than who I am to keep something going, then it’s not worth doing so, and is wasted effort.  I’m slowly finding it easier to expose more of who I really am, the more I practice acceptance and mindfulness and read books geared towards such things (“Radical Acceptance” and similar/related).  I don’t think either one of us was anywhere even near ready; in fact, my therapist was of the opinion that I had “dodged a bullet” when things unraveled.  He’s probably right.  And dwelling on what’s past is another thing I’ve always done… and it hasn’t served me well, so I’ll not dwell on it any further.  I’ll “mine” it for lessons, and pack it away with other things I don’t want to forget… but also don’t want to ruminate over.  Pointless rumination does nothing but prolong pain, and prevent healing.  Thoughtful reflection and looking for lessons is a far more healthy and fruitful way to go, I think.

At any rate, I truly thank you both, Anita and TeaK (by the way… is that “Tee-Kay,” or “Teek,” like the wood?  I’m guessing the former), for your perspectives and your thoughts, and just for being willing to help others.

Hi Anita,

I’ll go through them and ‘clean them up’ as needed.  But… I think she decided to ‘make the break’ shortly after she left the area… and was probably thinking about it even before then.  After her relocation, here followed a long ‘silence’ which led me to believe that she was gone for good, and when I “bumped” her name back to the top of the texts list in my phone (where it had spent so much time – – found it depressing to see her name slipping lower and lower on that list) by sending a “miss you and hope you know what you’re doing” text… she answered.  A few exchanges, ‘can we talk again?’, “yes, I’d like that…” then nothing again, and I tried to call (she was always telling me to call, and I did – – but not once did she pick up, and this time was no exception), left a brief message — again, nothing of consequence, ‘miss you, call me if you get the chance…’ and it was closely following that that I got the politely-worded C&D request.  As I said, I’ll review them and see what getting them up here will entail.  Never tried transferring a text from a phone to a PC.  I’ve got three years’ worth of stuff… not sure how much of it would be relevant, or where I might start looking for “signs.”  I’ll let you know.  And I thank you for the offer!

Hi TeaK,

Well, by “not anyone,” I meant ‘anyone special’ to her, not so much that I’m a nobody.  Though you aren’t wrong about my very low self-esteem.  Comes hand-in-hand with a lack of self-confidence, except in areas where I *know* I have expertise and knowledge acquired the hard way, then I’ll stand my ground – – but if I got into an argument with someone about what’s black and what’s white, if my ‘opponent’ were vehement enough, I’d actually start doubting myself; back up and review, to see if maybe I *am* mistaken somewhere.  That self-assurance of “knowing what I know” is mostly absent.

I was a normal, happy kid until 8, when my mom grabbed us and split.  The stepfather showed up not too much longer after that, and he was okay for maybe a couple of years, but gradually it became obvious that he didn’t think much of me at all (especially in comparison to *his* son).  I don’t think he knew how to relate to a shy, quite, retreating, bookworm, sports-hating, not-very-active kid with little drive or ambition.  *His* son, of course, was my polar opposite… a “proper” boy.  He had a list of derogatory pet nicknames for me, and often expressed his opinion that I was never going anywhere in life, that I’d never amount to anything.

Eight years of that, coupled with the same amount of time as a social outsider in school and with few friends, and bingo: low self-esteem.  Adding drugs and alcohol to the mix *did* make me feel better, but only for as long as the ‘high’ lasted, then I was back with a crash, looking forward to the next high… the only relief I knew.  The only place I felt accepted.  Never fit in in social situations (too apprehensive about appearing foolish or committing some gaffe or being rejected altogether).  I was hyper-competent at work, but worked alone based in a van, driving all around New England.  Did interface with my customers well enough (*they* loved me, anyway, as I put their needs before anything else, including my bosses desire to maximize profit by any means available, including theft and deception, which I flatly refused to go along with – – and suffered for it.)  Also, those interactions were pretty superficial, centered around the equipment I worked on.  Easy-peasy, provided it stayed there.  So a lot of continued failure at “fitting in” or feeling comfortable anywhere also eroded my self-esteem, gradually convincing me that there was just something really wrong with *me.*  And the longer it went on, and the more I remained distressed by social settings, the more cemented-in-place that conviction became.

No, we didn’t do any self-esteem work; anger came first, and there was a breakthrough in that area just before he had to leave.  I think I can continue forward and make progress with that.  Once I have a reasonably solid grip on that, that low self-opinion is next on the hit list.

Hi Anita,

Longest, hardest journey being the 18 inches from the head to the heart, or so I’m told.

I see how you connected the dots and filled in some areas, and it makes sense to me.  I’m at a loss as to how to ‘connect to other people.’  It’s never been a deliberate act; it’s been more something that happens than it is any act of mine.  Look how long it took for me to encounter my first real sense of connection…

And it’s worse than dropped off the radar.  She surfaced, briefly… long enough to ensure that I got the message to back off and cease contact.  “Cease and desist.”  From her sponsor, not even from her directly.  So it’s worse than simply disappearing.  There’s always hope of a re-appearance when there’s a disappearance like that… now it seems unlikely in the extreme that there will be.  Plus she’s on the other side of the country now.  Seems the attraction was mostly if not entirely one-sided.  Looking back, *now* I see signs that point to this… but I didn’t then (and still don’t now) trust my own ability to see such things and come up with an accurate picture of what the real situation is.  So I just tried harder and continued to hope I managed to say the right thing in the right way at the right time… or something.

Makes sense to me – – that losing the two people I felt most connected to (whether that was an accurate assessment or not is immaterial) is leaving me feeling ‘lost and adrift.’  When I’ve been almost entirely focused on one thing for that long, and then that thing is suddenly gone, it leaves quite a void.  One that I’m at a loss to fill immediately.  That might be another reason I’m feeling stalled and disenchanted with AA: we met at our both of our first meetings — both ‘came in’ to the same meeting on the same night (thought I saw some meaning there… and maybe I did, but I also think maybe we’ve both done for one another all we were ‘meant’ to do.)   My entire history with AA has also been my entire history with her… they’re inextricably entwined in my mind.  Just feels like a completely different critter now.

I continue to go to meetings (via Zoom… I host three weekly meetings), and still see a number of the ‘old crowd’ from meetings, but there’s a lot I don’t see, and one in particular who I was very much looking forward to seeing again isn’t coming back at all; he died in December unexpectedly in his early forties, just like my Dad did.  Jeez, I’m getting gun-shy at this point: seems every time there’s some degree of attachment – – they go away, one way or another.  I know… nothing’s permanent, or even lasts very long, other than relatively.  Still… to go most of my life without connection, and then in the space of 3 1/2 years to form three attachments, and lose them in that same length of time…. Maybe there’s a message there.  How many times must one get burned before learning to not grasp that hot object?

Okay, I’m just bellyaching now.  I guess all I can really do is put one foot in front of the other, continue with what AA has become for me, seek more secular alternatives to AA (either as a replacement for or in parallel with), and wait and see if another connection forms.  For me, interactions with people are just that: interactions.  Continued interactions just pile up; it’s rare that any sense of closeness or connection happens, and when it does, it’s never because of anything I consciously or deliberately do… it just happens, and then I really focus in on it.  Hopefully I’ll get better at it, and not keep scaring people away.  (Okay, that’s not fair; I scared only one away; another was transferred, and the other one died).  Just seems like a lot of loss, all of the same kind, all at once.  Strange and unhappy.

Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful reply… you always give me much to think about, and you also enable me to get a better overall view of things.  I’m mostly too close to see a bigger picture, and you always manage to show that to me.  It’s very much appreciated… thank you for taking the time.