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MattParticipantX,
I did have a good Thanksgiving, ate too much, but the time with the family is nice, and it reminds me how fast the kids are growing up. Have to enjoy it while I have it
The message of the parable is that if it ain’t broken, don’t fix it. One keeps going on in search of something better even though what one already has is good enough.
I think in life most successful people continue to upgrade the character of people that they keep in their life, even once they are in a relationship, the couple friends that they have change.
Hm-m, I am not sure that “upgrading the character” is a feature of successful people. I think that even a couple’s friends can change because life circumstances change, people change, etc. It should not be a conscious process – hey, I don’t think one absolutely must see a change of one’s circles with one’s life’s changes. In fact, don’t all good books tout friendships that last a lifetime? It is just that if, say, one couple (or person – doesn’t matter) got rich or moved upward, they or s/he might start to find in inappropriate to mingle with those who are “beneath” them (but I hope that you will agree that this is not to their credit) OR the other couple/person starts feeling that they somehow embarrass their friends exactly because they are not as successful as their friends are and start to distance themselves.
Doesn’t that parable go against what you said in response to the second response. I do think that friendships last a lifetime, I have 5 or 6 friends who will stand by my side for eternity. My point was that as you become more successful you run in different circles and meet people with higher standards. I can’t remember who said it but the saying, “you are the average of the 5 people you spend the most time with” as time goes on those five people change.
Here a good example of how it should be according to that favourite Russian psychologist of mine (Zberovskiy) comes to mind. If blissful life as a couple is the goal, let’s compare it to a space ship in orbit. To reach that orbit, to get rid of Earth’s gravity, one needs enormous power provided by boosters and exorbitant acceleration. That would be the stage of infatuation. Next you are in orbit, everything is going well, but for a space ship to remain in orbit, one needs to do reboosts from time to time. Note that a reboost is not the same as that initial insertion in orbit. In practice, those reboosts are all those things that are suggested the couple do to remain in love, i.e. candle light dinners, beach walks, etc.
So true and really hits the point of what I think the goals of my marriage should be.
………I have to go take care of something, I will be back
Matt
MattParticipantX,
I will close the loop on this topics response you had, I have read it a couple of times now and am trying to focus my response. This one I am having a more difficult time trying to get to a point. I have written a couple of things but it all just read like a giant undecipherable circle. Now that Thanksgiving is over I will have a little more time. More on your response later.
Eliana,
Thank-you for the response, my wife and I are definitely not out of the woods, but I am surely in a better place and the back and forth that X and I have had has been so helpful. I can’t really describe how eye opening and therapeutic this post has been.
MaryEllen,
I thank you for the response and plan on writing something, I may have the time later tonight, but I am interested in your thoughts and would like to pick your brain about a few things. The co-dependence is a topic that I struggle with but know how important it is for each person in a marriage to feel some sort of independence.
Thank-you all so much, I hope you had a great Thanksgiving
Matt
MattParticipantMatt, I am sorry, but what safety nets are you seeing?
Or do you mean that I choose these unavailable men exactly because their unavailability IS my safety net? A few articles point this out. That is that women like I are subconsciously boycotting the idea of a happy and loving relationship with a man for some reason and, naturally, choosing unavailable men, with whom they can be in love, busying themselves in this love, suffering, but at the same time knowing that they are safe because these men are unavailable?
This, and the way you break down how you put men you meet into these groups. Now these isnt a good or bad thing, but the way you group the guys you meet is a safety net in itself. You can always tell yourself that he won’t work out because I grouped him into the wrong group before even knowing anything about him. I am not saying this is what you do, but it seems that this has the potential to lead to a subconscious decision. But on the other side of the equation everybody does this at some point in time, so I might just be talking hot air.
I don’t think you need to work on yourself feeling safe and secure (you are there when you are there), and it is interesting that you wrote “unavailable” in your response describing your feeling. What if you just say that you are enjoying life, and living life to the fullest with all of these activities that you are enjoying.
Or do you mean that I should be blocking all “what ifs” if a man with a partner is pursuing me? That I won’t be missing my chance at fairy-tale romance if I don’t open myself up to a possibility of being happy with the man IF the man has a partner, that no matter what as long as he has a partner, he is off limits? And forget about happy endings that started as adultery?
I am interested in this thought. In my situation, what was/is Jay expecting with the relationship he has with my wife? Does it matter that it is opposite from what you are experiencing, Were your exes and my wife being dishonest, pretending that something more is available. Or are they serious about pursuing something new outside of their marriage with the knowledge that it may lead to something else and the end of their marriage. In my wifes case, I don’t think she wants a new husband, I just think she likes the idea of something new, but is this something that she has talked with Jay about. If not is she leading him on in a dishonest way, were your execs doing the same thing? There is no way for me to know the answer to these questions.
So reading everything between number #2 and the most recent guy, there was a lot there. It seems that number 2 had you in all sorts of knots and when the most recent guy same into the scene you were finally able to pull away from the spell of #2. But that turned into more unknowns and what if’s with the most recent guy. And how hard is it to get closure with the most recent guy, he won’t be able to do it unless he were to finally get divorced. Until then it will be up to you to decide but I think you are out of those molds and ready and open to finding something else or new.
I am going to look into The Passion Trap. I still think I need help and….
Matt
MattParticipantX,
Lots to digest with this one….
I liked the image of a flower that needs to be watered regularly. Now I don’t even know how to tell a keeper from somebody who is not – it may be starting splendidly, but then it just dies out and while you are getting signs that love is on the wane, you keep convincing yourself that one can’t “be high” all the time… As you know he left our “bridge” and started building a new one with that new woman…
I like the flower analogy because with a flower, there may be not enough water, there may be too much water, there might not be enough sunlight, and there might be too much sun light, and this changes throughout the year as the temperature rises and falls. I think most people treat their relationship the way most bridges are maintained, as long as it is functional no worries right, and then one day you wake up and the supports are eroding and it is too late to save you HAVE to build a new one. Which is probably why he jumped to the new bridge, he knew the structural support of your relationship was degrading.
The parable of the woman shopping is interesting and makes sense to a degree, but when you are shopping on each floor aren’t you stopping to try things on. you know the first floor has perfume, stop and try a few, then onto the shoe floor, and then the sundresses and on and on. The parable doesn’t talk about how long she spends on each floor. I think in life most successful people continue to upgrade the character of people that they keep in their life, even once the are in a relationship, the couple friends that they have change.
Personally, I believe that that infatuation, under normal circumstances, should be morphing into that quiet and steady feeling. Given that when I ran into my #2 (and also with #3, my ex, months after the breakup), I could still tell why it was I had been so attracted to him before, I would say that this is what probably should remain as a reminder of why you fell in love with your spouse in the first place.
I seriously doubt one can live on that “high” and keep experiencing fireworks indefinitely.
Okay I see that the steady rock portion of the relationship should become the normal state of any relationship over time, and obviously you don’t want to live in that butterflies state indefinitely, but should it be a goal to bring it back every now and then or is it gone forever?
The piece basically read that if a female makes the first step and it turns out (for instance) that the guy has a bad breath, and she is put off, it would be much harder for her to go back on her signs of liking him than if he advances and she merely states that he has misinterpreted her.
I sort of see the point here, but the way I look at it is that if I you were to initially think someone is cute and might be interesting and pursue that person only to find out that you couldn’t get through a dinner because their breathe was foul, at least you know, and you have a funny story. If you were to wait for the other person to make a move and that person doesn’t, then the opportunity is an open ended “what if”
Lets simplify your groupings. A = Men you are attracted to! B= Men you are not attracted to!, which group do you think your significant other is going to come from? Can you have friendships from group B, yes I think you can. Sometimes men move from group A to group B, that may take 5 mins, or it may take a couple of dates. But every man you meet will fall into one of these two groups, you can disregard the men in group B romantically, and deal with the group A men as they come.
In your groupings would you settle with anyone other than the +1 group?
I think that the reason for your feelings towards your most recent guy and the three others have changed is your perception of where you are at. But also to think that any of the three, except maybe the divorced one, are stable, calm, or reliable might be an illusion that you have given them for some reason. No one who is married and would be willing to get in a relationship outside of their marriage is stable calm, or would be reliable. I think that the fact you said it yourself about not interacting with any of them enough to be able to say for sure is the important point. I think those initial feelings of attraction provide just that, a little or big spark, a clue, a indication that something could bloom. But you will never know unless you add water. With the married guys, you will be adding water to something that is getting water somewhere else as well.
Explain the osicllation between good and bad some more, and that you are the good and not you is the bad. Are they escaping the reality in which they live? I kind of feel like my this is what my wife was doing. Our relationship was in a bad spot, and here this guy comes along and offers a “good” and she had to oscillate between the good and the bad.
I am going to post this now because I hope we can continue this talk about the good and bad picture some more?
but I will continue writing about the rest of your post.
Matt
MattParticipantX,
Okay here goes, lets see if we can close some of these loops.
That men need a challenge? I read about it in another book, too.
I think the challenge is inherent. There are enough challenges living life and holding a steady relationship is challenging for anyone. I don’t think you need to lower your standards. You should never settle, but that does not mean that you can not find all sorts of men interesting, and on the same note not all men you find interesting are going to be worth settling down with.
I can see that all of a sudden I become so enthusiastic about my relationship that I have the man CONSTANTLY on my mind when doing anything, even those activities that normally would captivate me so much that I would forget anything
This is the phase of a relationship that might be the most fun. It is infatuation/lust whatever. I think there is probably a biological and evolutionary reason for this.But this is the biggest challenge in a relationship, how do you keep this feeling after so many years. Should a relationship be over once this feeling is gone? Can I rediscover this relationship in my marriage after 7 years? I actually think it is possible, but I am finding out it takes a lot of work.
treat all men as you would treat friends until they explicitly say that they want to be something more than a friend.
Devils advocate: Besides saving yourself from heartache, why not be true to those feelings that you might have? If you meet someone who makes things move inside you, what are the risks of addressing those feelings? So you have committed to behaving like this and so far it hasn’t worked, why not try something different. Get out of your comfort level, approach some guy you find attractive and be the initiator.
That is I can hardly imagine being intimate with them, but I know that they would make great partners AND I also know that if any other guy like “most recent guy” or either one of those two came along, I would be smitten and it would be unfair to these “great partners.”
So do you think there is a difference between a great partner and someone who lights your fire and you can be smitten with. I see you might be trying to lower your own expectations. Are you scared of being totally heart broken? It feels like there are all sorts of safety nets around your relationship life. Heartbreak is scary as hell, the thought of my wife leaving me and breaking my heart would be the worst thing that could happen. I would be devastated. But I have come to a realization that if my wife chose someone else over me, it would not be the end of the world. It would suck, and hurt, and be awful, but I would hope that I would figure it all out and move on with life.
If I try to detach and look at it, I would say I am close to where you seem to have been. That is a) I am not desperate for a relationship, I quite enjoy being by myself, in fact, I think I am closer to nor really care at all; b) I do my best to have as much exposure to men as I possibly can; c) I have finally reached a point where I can live in the present moment and look forward to how any given day is going to unfold.
I am not sure if there is anything else I can do. Or am I missing something?
I think you are where you need to be, living life, having fun, and enjoying every minute you can. But you do need to realize that you don’t need to be in relationships with men who are unavailable from the beginning, and that in order to find love you need to be able to risk losing love and heartbreak.
They were clear about the problem, still loved each other, but nevertheless decided to part ways. I couldn’t understand it and still can’t, the romantic in me screaming, “But you love each other!!!”
This is very thought provoking, relationships are hard, and are always changing. People change and to stay in love you need to be able to find a way to keep the relationship fresh. So here is a question I have with your relationships, even though the men you fell for were already taken, how hard should you fight for someone you love? I don’t really know how to get this thought out of my head. Do you think you loved someone so much that you would fight for them. That isn’t exactly what I am trying to ask, but I can’t find the right sentence structure for this. I love my wife, that love is so strong that I would do almost anything to keep that love. But day to day, that Love is up and down….Does that make sense?
I think I am starting to ramble now, I will continue with the other post tomorrow evening. let me know what that interesting thought you came up with is. Have a great day and I will have more later.
Matt
MattParticipantX,
I really got caught up in my head, trying to take a look at what I actually needed from my relationship with my wife, and what I am currently getting. I would probably say that I am going through a mid-life crisis of sorts.
I felt in the correspondences that you and I were having, I was identifying the tips of icebergs on a lot of very big topics and I ran out of emotional fuel. I think it also points out a big flaw in me and something that mirrors real life. The right thing for me to have done was to write a quick note about taking a break to deal with work and such. Instead I just poof, disappeared. I can fully admit that is something my wife has complained to me about in the past. It is hard to see/admit, but at the same time very freeing being able to recognize/accept a fault and address it. I have found that I am a person who is able to get things started, but have a hard time closing the loop. I think this impacts all aspects of my life and is something that I really need to work on. As hard as these past few months have been on my wife and me, I think a larger problem exists.
but I personally do remember how happy I was when my ex and I reached that stage when we lived just like any couple who are committed to each other would live in a long-distance relationship (I mean that stage when even the suspicious me stopped doubting him and his relationship with his wife, etc.) only to realise later that that just-one-step-away-from-divorce stage had been lasting for a couple of years with no further changes.
I read this and got worried, but not because I think my marriage is a step away from divorce (maybe/who knows), but that all of the things I have convinced myself make me happy over the past few years may all be an illusion. As I sit here typing, I can’t help but look at all of the areas in my life and realize that there is not much there anymore, and that unease or unhappiness may in fact be the root cause of these issues with my wife. I have fallen into working at a job that isn’t fulfilling, I don’t play volleyball anymore, and being able to go out and spend an afternoon taking pictures feels like a pipe dream. I have also noticed that my veiws on life/politics/news has been really fluctuating recently. I am starting to see the world different, and my goals of what I want/need out of life are changing. I don’t feel like it is a depression thing, I am fairly in tune with my emotions when I get down and sad. I don’t feel sad, I feel uninspired.
breathing with the abdomen, for instance
Exactly, lucky you for holding onto this naturally, it is something you should be proud of. I was listening to a podcast about breathing and it was all about how most adults breathe all wrong. I have definitely been a vertical breather for as long as I can remember. Shoulders up, no wonder I was so stressed out all the time, this podcast really opened my eyes and since I have started focusing on my breathe it has made a huge difference.
I am really surprised at how my “most recent guy” changed physically (for the worse – and I can swear that there is no improvement in his relationship with his wife and he is not in love with anybody else (yet?))
I will tell you it is pretty amazing how fast things can go down hill, I noticed that during this time with my wife, I went through a week or so period where I let the wheels fall off of the food wagon. I normally eat fairly clean and I really don’t struggle with weight. I can eat pretty much whatever I want and stay right around 165lbs. but during this time I was eating like garbage, potato chips and soda, and greasy crap, you know easy feel good food. I woke up one day and felt like I had been hit by a freight train. My body hurt, I actually felt old, sleeping patterns changed, the way I ate changed. It was not a good look for me. And it was hard to get it back on track, still trying to reign it in and the soda. Anyway, if I were to throw in a few drinks a night, the stress with the wife and kids, work sucking, no physical activity, at 42 I think two months of all that would be enough to age me 5 years and 30+lbs.
I think the realisation that we can only help those who are willing to accept our help (and who are doing something themselves for that help to work!) has finally been fully processed by my psyche and “sunk in.”
This is so on point, something that I have been coming to grips with myself, I struggle with this with my wife and wonder all the time if it a lost cause trying to help her with her yoyo addictions.
On the other point I will be going through those posts again and will respond shortly.
Matt
MattParticipantx,
Well it has been a very interesting couple of weeks, work got crazy and was taking a lot of my energy. I have not spoken to my wife concerning Jay since the last time I wrote on here. I got tired of that situation constantly being in the front of my mind. I took up a daily meditation and breathing practice which allowed me 20 minutes a day to just let things go. IT has really worked great. I have come to the understanding that if she is going to step out with Jay than it is something that she will have to deal with the consequences of her actions. With the help of all of those posts that I wrote and your replies allowed me to get to a place where I was able to let go of the jealousy. I have not told her of the writing here, I thought that it was something that I needed, but that if she asks I would be okay sharing and showing her what I have written. She has not shared with me what she writes Jay, and at first it bothered me and I think it actually made things worse. Now that I don’t think about it and worry about it It is not really a thing. Now she could be planning something, but I don’t think so, and if that is what she wants then we deal with the outcomes once it happens.
We still have ups and downs, but I would say that the arrow is pointing up in general. We communicate a whole lot better, I am way more open about things that bother me and we are spending more time together. We still have things to work on, but we are in a position to discuss those things.
Thank-you so much for all of the insights and allowing me a space to explore these feelings. I hope all is well for you.
Matt
MattParticipantX,
I need some time to digest your posts and provide some insight, but I do have a question for you.
Given that I am sharing personal details concerning my feelings about my wife/marriage/life, do you think that it is something that I should share with my wife? My gut tells me that I should show her and let her read all of these posts, but on the flip side I also like the fact that this is my outlet. Maybe all I need to share with her is that I have been posting thoughts and feelings on an anonymous as a way to work through my thoughts. Or maybe it is something that does not need to be mentioned. I am not sure about this one, I can see benefits and negatives in all of them.
Have a great weekend, I will have some time Sunday night to respond to your posts.
Matt
MattParticipantI have been thinking a lot about where I am at (married with kids), versus where I was at when I was single and thinking that I didn’t measure up to all of my friends who were already married with kids. Most of my close college friends got married soon after college, I think I went to 6 weddings in the first couple of years after we graduated. At first it was cool being the single one, I had way more freedom, which allowed me to be wide open. As the time went by it did start to get to me. I would often ask myself “what is wrong with me” I kept putting more and more pressure on myself and I think it really started to hurt my self confidence. I am by no means model material, but I know now that I can clean up nicely and am not too hard on the eyes. Back then when I was single I had a very different view of myself. I am really not sure what it was, but I think it had a lot to do with the fact that I had no confidence, but I also think part of it was that I hung my future on every date on went out on. Like you, I could tell whether things would work out or whether we had the physical connection within the first couple of minutes of talking to someone to my date, and if it wasn’t there I would shut down. Instead of just going out and having a great time, I was always looking for the one. I guess one day I woke up with a different attitude, out of the blue I asked this lady out for coffee. We would run into each other at a place that we both ate lunch at frequently, and one day standing in line I nervously turned and probably said something very awkward. But she said coffee sounded good, I think we met up that weekend, had coffee and a great conversation, but at the end of it we agreed that romantically we weren’t a fit, but we enjoy each others company. I remember she had the greatest laugh. You know one of those that immediately make you giggle. The point of that story was that we hung out every now and then, and in the process I ended up meeting someone who I went out with for a couple of months. At the end of that relationship is when my business trip to Charlotte was and where I re-connected with my wife. I think my comfort zone was the fact that I could never find the right one, that nobody met my standards, and until I stepped out of that zone and just started meeting different people for the sake of meeting different people, the feelings I had for myself changed.
Now I look at relationships totally different, I feel like everyone I meet has something to offer me, something that I can learn. I no longer measure people, they just are, and I have made some amazing acquaintances. I took a job working with Habitat for Humanity helping volunteers learn how to use the tools, and the various tasks that we had them doing. Through that I met amazing people and had some very engaging conversations about lots of different topics. I think that is what is most important in life, filling your life with people that you find stimulating both physically, mentally, and emotionally. You know my wife stimulates all three of those, but there are other people who may be great conversationalists, or who may be one of those people that needs an ear for all of their problems.
My wife and I have been having a great couple of weeks, and we have really found this renewed vigor in our relationship. It makes me very happy, but we continue to expand our conversations and are able to have really honest conversation about what Jay represents, and what we want our relationship to look like as we get older.
I will have more later
Matt
MattParticipantRight off the bat, first thought, I would say relax. I think it all does point to the fact that you are scared of that connection. You are setting the bar way to high for someone that outwardly says they want to find the love of your life, but inwardly all the signs point to not wanting to give up those alone times. Relationships are scary as hell, and I am by no means saying that you should settle for something other than what you really want.
I was alone for a long stretch of time as well and it sucks to, but there are lots of benefits to being alone. Learning to be accepting of it can be freeing. But I still think you need to re-focus your thoughts about the process of meeting that man. I think that you are personally right where you need to be, have fun/live life/excel at work/follow your passions. The special someone will show up, and you know what; if he doesn’t your still going to be living a spectacular life. Sure you will be missing out on some things, but I am missing out on being able to travel to different locations, I am missing out on being able to fully immerse myself into my passion with photography, I am missing out on being able to drop everything and just go somewhere by myself, I can’t just quit my job and decide to move somewhere else just for the experience, there are things that because of my family just aren’t realistic anymore. But I am comfortable with that, because sometimes like you daydreaming about Mr. Right, I daydream about just leaving it all, packing my bags and buying a plane ticket to a foreign country and getting lost. But that is what daydreaming is all about, then my daughter will walk in the room and need something to drink, or want me to color with her, and I go about my day excited to see the smile on my daughters face.
Oh, one more thing. I am used to men making the first step. I made the first step myself with #1, didn’t end well. The farthest I can go is ask a question
What type of signal do you think you are giving the men that you run into?
My mother says that I need to be more feminine, like start painting nails (believe it or not, never painted mine – don’t like the look of it!) and learn to cook
I say you need to be yourself, honest and who you are, that is the only way you will meet someone you want to spend the rest of your life with, or even meet someone that you would be willing to spend anytime with. AS far as cooking, nah no big deal. I enjoy cooking, and get great pleasure cooking my wife a meal while she sips on a glass of wine with me.
And the ones I could see myself with are few and far between and are all taken. But then that guy said “Patience!”
See yourself doing what with? It all goes back to enjoying life, you might find someone at the shooting range who gives you tips on shooting, absolutely no physical attraction, but you respect their opinion. It would be worth hanging around them at the range interacting. Those are the guys who have friends, and most guys hang out with guys who are similar to themselves. You find the type of guy who has the values/interests that you share and one day Bob from the shooting range brings his friend Mark to the range, and your heart goes all aflutter. That’s how it happens, out of the blue. Does that make sense about why I say that you should still find people to interact and have fun with even though there is nothing physical.
I hope that all makes sense, don’t play the game anymore, accept where you are, have fun and enjoy life.
Thoughts
Matt
MattParticipantX,
Okay, wow, now that is a relationship to wrap my head around. No wonder about the confusion. Your Ex sounds like he could use some alone time to straighten himself out first. There is a whole lot of selfishness there to be able to walk into peoples lifes like that and rip everything apart, throw it onto the ground, and walk away with no remorse. That is like a picture of a Tornado ripping through the landscape leaving devastation behind. I am sure there were many fun times, and times of hope, but he was a master manipulator that was able to get everything that he wanted. Out of curiosity, what is the biggest thing that you take away from that relationship?
I terms of the most recent guy, that does go to show how important chemistry is, and how powerful it is. For you to have gone through what you did with your ex and still continue to put yourself in a situation which has all of the makings of a very hard relationship to make work. So lets talk about challenges. From everything you have wrote about, I can assume that you are extremely intelligent, and have worked really hard to get where you are. Is there something there about the challenge of winning the affection of these men who on the outside look unattainable.
Jay is not married, is he?
Jay is divorced with no kids, I don’t know how long he was married for, or when or why he was divorced. It must not have been too good because he must not have any respect for the sanctity of marriage. But then again I think through this whole process, my thoughts on marriage have definitely been altered
You know I think that she is using it as sort of a break from reality, I fantasy that she can slip into where all of the stress of our day to day lives shrink away.
So the only viable scenario that I can envision (but that is very unlikely) is that we somehow run into each other again, the chemistry still being there and him being already free AND healed and ready for a relationship (from what I could see on his Twitter, nothing has changed in that respect for him – he is still mentally unavailable), and off we go from scratch. As if nothing had ever taken place before.
After reading everything, I think that unfortunately you served a purpose in his life and did not get anything in return. I like that you have decided to turn the page, it sounds like continuing to actively pursue/think anything will happen would only serve to hamper you growing more. As an aside,I do believe that if it were meant to be it will show itself and the picture you are painting for yourself is correct.
So with your wife, that feeling that something wasn’t there never appeared? You and your wife went past the times when your other relationships would end, and yours still continued on a high note, just as enjoyable, with no end in sight?
Correct, with my wife, as unsexy as this sounds, it was like your favorite pair of slippers they just fit and they always feel so damn good to put on. We have some very challenging times and the relationship has not been enjoyable all the time, kinda like when those slippers get stinky, the thought of throwing them away never crosses your mind. I have never had that feeling with my wife that something was missing.
I realized that I might still be afraid of others and of life at some deep level
After reading everything else you wrote, I think there might be something to this statement.
I think that when you stop looking for that ideal man, and start looking for people that meet some small need on yours that you will find there are a lot of people out there that can provide you with fulfillment. Then that partner in crime will show up. I also don’t entirely agree that a husband must be more experienced and intelligent than the wife. I think that when you find your partner, you will realize that you compliment each other. Sure there are certain things that I know more about than my wife, but there are lots of ways that my wife is way more intelligent than I am, and that is one of the things that turns me on about her. Granted there are some men out there that aren’t looking for that, because they are intimidated buy intelligent women. They know that they can’t control intelligent women the same way, and are probably the ones that you want to stay away from. My wife knows my weaknesses and doesn’t want to use those against me, but rather help me grow through them. You should want that equal partner that holds the same attitude on life as you. Now my wife and I are also very opposite when it comes to certain things and that is okay to. Like I said it is about complimenting each other.
I gotta go take care of something really quick but will be back shortly
Matt
MattParticipantX,
Okay here goes….. For a long time I felt this same way. I had my last serious girlfriend who wasn’t my current wife when I was about 26, then I went about 9 years before me and my wife got re-united where I stayed single for the most part. I just couldn’t find someone who was available who I felt like having a serious relationship with.
I want to think that I am whole and complete on my own, but so far I don’t have the proof of it in the form of a healthy relationship with a man.
Why do you think that having a healthy relationship with a man as being proof that you are whole and complete on your own. There may in fact be a shortage of free whole and complete men, but I would counter that even thought that is what you are looking for maybe it is the wrong way to go about it. I know how much stress I put myself under during that time frame, I got stuck, constantly seeing all of my college friends getting married and having kids. I felt like I would be uncle Matty forever to all of my friends children. Single uncle Matty who always comes around and shows them a good time. I got to a point where I just accepted the fact that I was going to let go of trying so hard to find someone, and I spent a year travelling across the country on little vacations visiting all of my friends and spending time with their new families. I would listen to all of them tell me to enjoy the time not having a family, they would say that once the family came everything would change. And I did just that, I started enjoying myself. I went out on dates with women who didn’t initially meet all of my criteria, and I did it just to have a good time. I changed my perspective on what I thought a date should be, I went out on dates just for the date, that one date, whether it was coffee on a Sunday morning, Kayaking Saturday afternoon, or dinner/drinks and dancing. Some of the dates were out right fun, some were absolutely horrible, and some were just good conversation. Very few of them ended with anything physical ever coming out of it. But I really enjoyed that period, and then it happened, I had a work trip where I had to spend a long weekend in Charlotte, and one week before the trip, my wife came up as a “people you may know” on facebook and it said she lived in Charlotte. And the rest is history.
I would challenge you to go out on dates, make a goal of going out on a couple of dates with men who you would never see yourself in a serious relationships with. Be smart about it, but find people who you could enjoy for one reason or another and go out. Some will be good, and some will be bad, but it will show you that you can have fun and not put so much pressure on yourself. I got stuck saying that it was a waster of time to go out on a date with someone who I knew wasn’t going to work out, but I was missing the point that whole time. There are people that will provide you with some insight, and there will be people where it is just fun. But hopefully it will just show you to live life and allow it to happen while trying to be the best you.
I am not sure this will help, but it is some insight, I will elaborate and that dating time if you need me to but I think the point is to just live life and stop limiting yourself because situations aren’t perfect. Have a great evening
Matt
MattParticipantX,
It is so nice to get to that point when all is done, and a little relaxation can be had without anything hanging over your head. I love those weekends
This is partly because their testosterone levels drop below normal. As a result, men often withdraw to recoop. They need to remember their independence and do “guy stuff” in order to rebuild their testosterone to normal levels. That’s when they are ready to come back to you. Turns out this is all very normal for the regular guy. Too much closeness can cause him to retreat and this is a direct results of his hormones.”
So… Would this be true for you as a man?
So true, the testosterone dropping, and needing some me time, I can feel when I get to the point when I need some time. Usually I will go for a hike, get out into nature, exercise, paint, edit some of my photos. I think for me having the alone time is most important. The other interesting thing that I have felt is that now that I am eating a healthier diet, meaning much more aware of the sugar and Carbs that I eat and substantial increase in healthy fat, that testosterone dip doesn’t happen nearly as often.
Question, so this guy that you have the Chemistry with, has an ex-wife he has kids with, you as a mistress for a time, and now a current wife?
I am certainly not in love with him. I don’t even know him well – we did discuss nearly everything in writing, but it is not the same as getting to know the person in everyday life, even our regular communication lasted for four months.
I am willing to understand and forget his behaving as if he was falling for me and then basically ghosting on me. I can very well see how intense prolonged stress at home could be the root of it.
This kinda strikes me as something that Jay may say in the future once all of this is said and done. When you are married, stress in the house is so overwhelming because there feels like no escape sometimes. You can’t just go into hiding like when you are single. There is always something that needs to be done, decisions that need to be made between two people. Anger/sadness/neglect all become amplified because that person is always present. I believe that is why marriage is so much work. I have learned that letting those emotions fester is a very dangerous game.
But I still can’t forget how much chemistry we had, how good it felt to be cuddling with him and, OMG, how witty our chats were, it felt as if fireworks were crackling all around when we chatted! And we discussed some pretty serious things, too, so that also adds to my bewilderment as to how somebody, who feels things so deeply, could behave like that.
One of the same questions I have concerning my wife, but I think a sort of compartmentalization occurs, and from some of the ways that she worded things, it felt like she is talking to Jay from a very different part of her pshyche. One that is not connected in any way to our day to day life. Not quite a fantasy world, because she is very much the same person, but from a place where she can not be concerned about the other roles that she has in our life. I am not sure that makes sense but it is a thought
Pity I haven’t met him in person since August 2016 – I am sure I would know if we met face to face. But he is still in the area, so who knows-?…
I would say that meeting face to face would be the true tell, but I would also say that unfortunately to carrying all of the risk in that situation. I mean the fireworks could still be amazing, and the best case scenario would be that it would spark something in him to acknowledge feelings. But the downside is that it would leave everything up in the air again and you would continue having to deal with these unanswered feelings and maybe something that can’t ever be fully explored.
So I wonder, if there is any way you can dig it up in your psyche and heart, how you managed not to forget her and, at the same time, how you managed to be with somebody else (and kind of compare them to her) if you still remembered her?
It wasn’t ever conscious, But the thoughts always came after that initial honeymoon period of new relationships started to wane. When the relationships started getting comfortable, the feelings would always sneak up, and most of the time it ended up being the start of the end of the current relationship. Like one relationship got really serious, we had a great relationship, amazing chemistry, but something just wasn’t there. I don’t know that I can explain it in words. Did you ever have a favorite blanket growing up, one with a silky edge. I did and even though all four corners were exactly the same, there was only one of the corners that I liked to rub on my cheek. why that corner, I don’t know there was just something about it. Maybe I could feel the difference in the way that she loved me, I will have to think on this a little more and get back to you.
I also wonder (and forgive me for the way I put this) why you are not afraid or, rather, ashamed to acknowledge that you love your wife so much, to the point of willing to try an open marriage? (At least, were; hopefully, this is no longer the case.) Or you were able to do it only because no one knows who you are on Tiny Buddha? And you wouldn’t be mentioning this to your male friends for fear of being ridiculed? Or they would understand and not ridicule you for this?
Clarify for me…
I needed a sounding board to discuss feelings concerning the possibility of my wife being intimate with another man. I think I know what my friends would say about this. That would stick up for me and tell me that I needed to think about getting a divorce and letting this relationship go. I don’t think I could get the conversation that I am having with you from my friends. I don’t think ridicule would be the response, I think they would be concerned. I needed a space where I could explore whether a) the jealousy I was feeling was healthy, or if it meant that I should get out of my marriage b) or not a marriage is worth keeping if the two people are open and honest with each other c) if I should still love my wife knowing what I know d) if being intimate with someone else proved that yo don’t love the other person anymore. There are lots of layers, speaking to my friends about it didn’t make sense because I didn’t actually have the total picture as to what I needed to understand.
And, since you seem to be such a perfect specimen (no offence intended) of a loving husband and doting father, I would like to hear your thoughts on the following
Thank-you so much but I am far from a perfect specimen, I have flaws. I have not been the greatest husband or father at times, but I try. I do believe I understand what you are saying though so I will try
So I would be grateful if you could elaborate a bit more on how different your feelings towards your daughter are from those for your wife and why somebody like me needs not to be afraid of having children if their father is somebody like you?
Oh man, kids, this could be hours and hours of writing. I have a very unique perspective since I am not only raising my child, but I am also raising my wifes son from a different man. When my wife and I first got together our son was 7, we had a period of growth between the two of us. His mom had been single, raising him, one other serious relationship who raised our son for a few years, but for the most part it was him and his mother. And now I get involved. I had to work hard to show him that I wasn’t trying to take his mother away from him. We had to work to build a relationship and do those things that build a strong bond so we could trust each other. it took time, but I love him like my own and want to show him how to be a man and succeed at life. I learned that life was no longer just about me, I had this new feeling of having to take care of someone who could not totally take care of them-self. Then our daughter came and that is when my whole life got turned upside down. Our daughter was almost 4 weeks early and she was tiny, but the feelings that came with her were so powerful. You get this sense that it is no longer about you, nothing else matters except the health and safety of this tiny human being. And that is where the difference between my feelings towards my wife and kids lie. You see my wife is my partner in crime, I need her to be with me. I need her to allow me to be myself. I need her to be there to complete me, to support me, to help me grow. With the kids, I love them with everything in this world in order to provide them with what they need to grow into productive responsible adults. That feeling is so amazing and so different. Having kids is scary, there is a lot of bad shit in this world, my wife and I see things everyday that scare the crap out of us. But you will never understand the joy that you feel the first time your child looks you straight in the eyes and says “I love you”, or the happiness seeing your child realize things, or the absolute panic you get the first time you see them fall down and really hurt themselves. I guess living with the wonder and amazement that I get to feel everyday makes it worth more than anything else in the world. I will have a better thought out answer for you later because there is so much more. Having a kid changes everything, including the relationship with your spouse. And that also adds additional stress to your marriage. Love and marriage is all about time, learning how to budget time is the most important skill to raising a family and having a successful marriage.
I will go and take a look at your other post now
Have a great night
Matt
MattParticipantHey X,
I hope you had a wonderful weekend, my weekend was really amazing, one of the best that I have had in a long time. Spent all weekend with the wife and kids. My wife and I were focused on each other and really made great strides within our relationship. We talked and laughed and were just there with each other. It was like a huge sigh of relief, I don’t think we are out of the woods yet, but after this weekend a lot of things have been reconciled.
You brought that mushroom example, well, it makes one think that feelings may change with time. How soon might they change here regarding open marriage?
I would think that these things could change over night, as more experienced is gained more insight into your happiness level is gained. I also think that the more conversations that are had the more insight is gained. As I travel down this road I am starting to learn that in order for my marriage to be successful I need to be able to honestly communicate with my wife on a very deep and open level. Something that I had never practiced in the past. You know the whole men talking about their feelings thing
You seem to be really warming up to the idea, what is stopping you from having an open marriage now?
Maybe, but maybe as my wife and I communicate more, and I start to give her the attention that she is craving, an open marriage is not needed. My wife told me this weekend that since I have been opening up with her, and have been spending more time focusing on her that she hasn’t been texting with Jay as much.
Somebody said that it would interesting to know how many people exactly on this planet would fall in love if they did not hear about love, passion, etc. all their lives since childhood well into adulthood from other people, books, films, etc.?
Interesting idea, so lets talk about the reason for Love. I imagine that evolutionary, the reason for love would be to ensure that two humans get together to have children, and those feelings we call love are there to ensure that the child gets the safety of being raised in the so called best conditions possible. It has been shown that just touching your partners skin releases an endorphin rush in the brain. Increased dopamine, that feeling of pleasure is what keeps you connected with that person. You want to stay with that person because of those feelings. Is it possible to have those dopamine hits with more than one person at a time. Not sure of the answer to that one.
I agree that men and women typically react in different ways, we are seeing this first hand with our teenage son. My wife sometimes gets upset because he answers some things as see says “that is a typical male response” I agree, but as I get older, things take on a different perspective. I am definitely seeing things in different lights, whether that is because I am actively trying to get to the bottom of feelings. It would be just as easy to continue to think along the same path, but I have realized it wasn’t getting me nowhere, and was having a very negative impact on my marriage. Just by taking a different approach has given me some freedom from those old feelings. And some insight into who I want to be and who I don’t want to be
It sounds to me like you and your wife are on the same page, so again, I am wondering what is stopping you from going ahead (and telling us about the result ;)))?
I think what you said in the beginning about mid-life crisis might be close, what if we are having an awakening of sorts. I feel like I am evolving my feelings and thoughts. There are still some very scary feelings, and places in my psyche that need to be explored. But the overall idea is not as frightening as it was initially. For right now it seems to be in a holding pattern.
maybe I am trying to build the case of fear being behind everything, so naturally, I find proof of it and dismiss or fail to notice what doesn’t prove it?…
I think you are exactly right with this one. Fear controls every decision that we make, the ego is your coat of armor trying to protect yourself. The key to dealing with your ego is to start by looking at your fears. “The ego is the false self—born out of fear and defensiveness.” ~John O’Donohue
But you love your wife, and you have every reason to believe that not complying with her wishes will take her away from you (which you fear and don’t want). So your subconscious is conditioning your body to accept the situation, which would otherwise be unacceptable. Hence all your questioning, reasoning, trying to see why not, etc.
What do you think?
I think that I am trying to get to the root cause of my fear so that I can be more whole as a person and not let my ego control how I respond to certain situations.
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This reply was modified 7 years, 1 month ago by
Matt.
MattParticipantX
I will start first with the idea of exploring these emotions. This process is surely new to me, I have lived my life burying my emotions and feelings. Most of my life has gone by with an emotional flat line. There were up and down spikes here and there but looking inside and expressing those feelings/emotions was not something that I did. So why now, I don’t know exactly other than it feels like the thing I need to do. It is extremely uncomfortable, but quite freeing. Kinda like that flashlight idea, the more I shine that light around these areas that I have been hiding, the more I realize that I have been lying to myself, hiding things from myself, or not really living life to the fullest. And I like that notion of living life outside your comfort zone. I have felt more alive over the last couple of months than I have in awhile. Even though it has caused some hurt and misery. I like the idea of spending more time exploring who I really am. (As a side note, I am also in the midst of trying to figure out my next career move, it is definitely another topic, but also worth noting.)
That’s my take on it now. In other words, we indeed can have many soulmates, depending on what stage in life (and in our personal development) we are at.
Okay, I can accept that, I can see how people can come and go into your life and affect you in tremendous ways. But doesn’t that thought just point to the fact that maybe the ideal of marriage actually hampers our growths as individuals.
people say things that they don’t believe, people say things that they believe in while they are saying them, people’s stances and opinions change, etc.
This thought has crossed my mind many times, It is the one that haunts me the most because how can you ever know what motivates people to say things. I have to accept the fact that my wife may just be telling me things so as not to hurt my feelings. Or that if she did act on her feelings with Jay that it would end up changing her view on our marriage. I think that is a valid point, and a risk. My wife and I have discussed this risk and it is one that there really isn’t anyway to protect from.
In fact, I am surprised that you are so open to the idea of an open marriage. I was under the impression that men are far more possessive than women.
The more you write about men, the more I think I may not be a man after all..HAHA One of the most attractive qualities I find in women is an Independent streak. Someone that isn’t afraid to go get something she wants. Now I am still a gentleman, open doors, yes maam, gush over my wife, but I don’t feel the need to be a controller. I think this is why when I started this post it was all about trying to get to the bottom of the jealousy that I was feeling. Maybe I always just suppressed the jealousy, but I don’t think that is the case. This is new, it has never been around in previous relationships.
Turned out my gut was right. Actually, my most recent guy told me as well that he believed one should go with the intuition.
The funny thing is that I am not sure that my gut is telling me that the idea of an open marriage/relationship is wrong. You know that is probably why I am willing to explore all of this. I know that initially the jealousy was sickening., but I don’t necessarily think that the jealousy is tied to the act of her being intimate with someone else. It feels like a knotted up ball of yarn. The more I pull the string the tighter the knot gets, but if I take my time and slowly follow the string and see that I am able to make more sense of things.
The spinach example makes a lot of sense, but to counter that over the course of time you can change your pallete. I hated mushrooms growing up, just the thought of biting into one made me gag. But I was out to dinner one night on a date at an Italian restaurant and my date ordered some type of veal with a mushroom sauce. She offered me a taste of her dinner, and for some reason I didnt say “no, I hate mushrooms”, I took the bite, and it was AMAZING, and now I absolutely love mushrooms. I guess my point to all of this is that in for us order to find out what (or who)you truly love we have to push ourselves, take ourselves out of our comfort zone.
With your wife, it is different. You are not trying to convince yourself to love your wife, you are trying to convince yourself to love what your wife loves (let’s put it this way).
Not sure about this one because she loves a lot of things that I never want to love, like purses, shoes, Stephen Colbert and Jon Oliver. I appreciate that there are things she does that I have no interest in, and that there are things that I love that she has no interest in. I think it is one of the ways that people stay together longer, because you have interests outside of your partner. Not always the case but I think there is truth in it
Another prospective. She (or another woman in her place) may think that you are a door mat if you agreed to share her with somebody.
What if this was a test?
I have thought about this one as well, and have talked to her about it, she is not trying to test me, she is curious about exploring more of her own sexuality, and of our sexuality together. But it is important to note that I have been told in the past by friends that I sometimes come across as being a pushover, giving in too easily. I stand up for the most important things in my life, but why waste energy on small things.
I will have to continue later, need to get some things done.
Have a great weekend,
Matt
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This reply was modified 7 years, 1 month ago by
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