Matt,

Wow, this is becoming a really captivating soul-searching dialogue! Thank you again and again for participating and providing a male perspective (even though you are one sole representative of the male population in it)!

Yeah he sounds like a study in narcissism, and I am certain there is a hole there that needed to be addressed and filled but he chose to take the easy way out, when those feelings welled up, throw it out and start again.

Yes, there is definitely that feeling that every time he falls in love, he sort of turns over a new leaf with the intention of starting fresh and anew. BUT he never addresses the issues that lead him to the necessity of turning over that new leaf, so he chooses the same type of women, behaves the same way, so we can place bets on how soon he and his wife #4 are done with each other. I could talk more and more about him, but I would be repeating things that I had already analysed and processed, and I don’t really want to go back to all the small observations of mine, the feelings I had at the time, the train of my thoughts, etc. It is like a book for me now, an entertaining novel that I enjoyed reading, but that I don’t want to leaf through again. Besides, it has been two years now since he married her, and my feelings about the findings I made back then haven’t changed, so I take it that I did eventually figure him and myself (that is, why I did what I did) all out.

I think we can all agree that feelings and emotions can suck and hurt to a depth that is honestly beyond belief. They can also provide euphoria that is beyond belief. I still vividly remember the emotions that my wife and I shared the first couple of minutes after they brought our daughter to us from the nursery. Tears, smiles, laughter, fear…take them all roll them up and smack me in the face. I can see how someone could become addicted to those feelings that come about in the beginning of any relationship.

Yup, even after two years, I still believe that that phrase of mine, of him being high on the infatuation of a new love and going from infatuation to infatuation in search of that high is right.

If you ask me, for me, I would prefer to know about it. Because if the man swore to be mine and only mine, but then went ahead and had that encounter, it means that he is not to be trusted. And I need to be able to trust my partner 100%.

I feel the same way, I think that the trust aspect is where the hurt comes from.

Well, here I believe I need to point one tiny detail out. I didn’t write “swore to love me” (unless you mean the physical aspect of it, not feelings). I have thought long and hard about it, tried to look deep into my heart remembering my crushes, and came to the conclusion that was later confirmed by reading anita’s answers on Tiny Buddha, that one can’t really, in all honesty, swear to LOVE somebody. Feelings come and go. Good example – I have certainly met a number of decent men who would make excellent husbands (or you (probably) women or anybody else, etc.), who are trustworthy, who will always be there for you. But can I fall in love with somebody just because they are good? Unfortunately, no. Somebody marrying somebody just because they are good, just because they didn’t want to upset their parents, etc. is the underlying reason for so many troubles and sufferings not only in fiction and films, but also in reality. I later read a whole chapter on it as something not to be done in one psychological book.

But other than that – yes, it is trust. You trust your partner as your alter ego, otherwise why would you let him or her in so close as your partner, right?

Now can broken trust ever be fully reconciled in a relationship, or do people just lie to themselves for the sake of love.

Well, I am sure there are exceptions, but they must be very few and far between no matter what a number of websites tell you (stories like “Our bond has only become stronger after we reconciled after his cheating – what nonsense!) I think it is one of those where, as they say, the exceptions only prove the general rule of thumb. Sometimes though, it may seem for the first couple of months that one person has forgiven and the other one has acknowledged his or her wrongdoing, so they go on as if nothing has happened. But something has happened, and I am sure it will pop up sooner or later.

Matt, if you have nothing better to do, you can look up my original post from May this year entitled “Need Help Understanding Why” (you can look by clicking on my profile). I am talking there about that guy who helped me to shift focus from my ex to himself (unknowingly to himself acting as a good psychotherapist), but since he was no psychotherapist, he failed to reduce my interest in him to zero, so I ended up spending over a year thinking that something was possible between us. I still think something might be, but now it is more of “Never say never” and not having him on my mind all the time as I used to. Actually, I think I am back to my former self before I had that crazy crush on my #1 as I call him exactly ten years ago.

So that guy and his wife were high-school sweethearts, married some ten years later, welcomed their first child after several years of marriage, then a girl came along. He gradually goes up his career ladder, she is there by his side. Perfect Christians, I should add. Then he meets that another woman and goes crazy. I have no idea why he didn’t divorce his wife (to whom he had been faithful for – erghm – about 25 years by then), maybe because of the kids.

I don’t know what went wrong between him and his new love, but he was back to his wife, trying to repair the damage he did. He wasn’t trying too hard, because his heart was no longer there, and there is nothing he could do. One can’t force oneself if one simply can’t. He put his ring on three or four times after that affair. Took it off one more time. That is him.

Well, as for her, I can very well imagine myself in her place. The way her life was turning out was the way I, as a little girl, sort of imagined for myself. And then this happens. Just out of the blue.

You know, as they say, men don’t always cheat because the other woman is more beautiful, more stylish, smarter, etc. than their wife. Sometimes they cheat simply because she is different. Like my ex – he has a whole collection of a brunette woman four years older than he (his wife #3), a brown-haired me 21 year younger than he, a redhead eight years younger than he (his current wife), etc. – I sometimes wonder if all that started when his wife #1 whom he married right upon his graduation and who gave birth to a child that was not his was the primary reason for all of this…

Anyway, that guy’s wife, as a Christian, tries to forget and live as if nothing has happened. But the trust is broken. She can’t divorce (presumably, because she is Christian (maybe because of the kids’ age – that “until college” thing)), she can’t trust him as she used to. She becomes easily upset, cranky, suspicious, demanding only damaging the relationship further.

So if you ask me, I would say that no matter how hard one wants to forgive and forget, I don’t think this is really possible (unless that piece of memory somehow gets erased). So I have always thought that if a cheating situation occurs, cut all ties. Just like they say with assault and battering – if your partner did it once, no matter what he is saying, no matter how profusely he apologises, what gifts he is giving, get out. Period.

So why is sex with another person the deal breaker in a marriage? ( I am not sure that is the correct way to put it) I don’t know, I have never cheated on my wife, but I have met women who I was physically attracted to. On the same note I have also watched porn, and there have been times when I fantasized about having sex with women who weren’t my wife. Should these be deal breakers? Maybe… But afterward I still loved my wife the same way. On the negative side; because I didn’t disclose to her that I had these fantasies, Is this cheating on our marriage? IS it in fact the definition of marriage is the active ability to withhold desire for the sake of your spouse? I am not trying to talk myself into an open marriage, but I am trying to find why suppressing feelings could be positive for a marriage. I know plenty of people who keep some fairly intense things from their wives and husbands, and from the outside they have great marriages. Is that a better way to live life then to be honest about the feelings of desiring other people and acting upon it if everyone is on the same page. Does that make sense?

Hm-m-m, I don’t know. Oh, wait, maybe I do. It may be the same way as with cheating or lying. I once read a good piece of advice on what can be considered cheating and what can’t. It went something like this, if you don’t feel comfortable about talking about this to your partner, it is cheating (even if no physical act took place), if not – then it is not.

It is all very complicated, I don’t really know where to start. Maybe it all comes down to the compromise you strike with your partner in this area like in many others. Say, s/he doesn’t approve of you gambling, but you still do (even though you agreed not to) – that would be a breach of trust. The same with having sex with another person. Unless your partner approves of it. In your situation, at least where things stand right now, your wife doesn’t mind trying, you don’t like the idea, but are trying logically to talk yourself into it. Sounds a bit like my passage above about marrying the person simply because s/he is good.

I have recently come up with a classification of men as regards my feelings for them. There are some for whom I feel complete aversion – just like there exists love at first sight, which I haven’t experienced, there exists hate at first sight, which I have. The worst thing here is that they did nothing wrong at all (yet), but I already can’t stand them. Physically.

There are some whom I don’t find pleasant to be around. Again on that basic chemical level. A guy like that tried to date me several months ago. I did what I could, gave him a try, but it turned out that I had been right – no matter how much time I give to a man, if he doesn’t interest me when we first talk, he never will.

There are some to whom I am completely neutral. Those would be (or are) good male friends. No sexual feelings added, none whatsoever. Proof (at least in my eyes) that friendship between men and women, no matter what they say, is possible.

Next group consists of two subgroups. One is represented by men with whom I would look great in a family photo (I talked to one male acquaintance of mine, funny enough that was also his criterion for finding a woman attractive), but who don’t really interest me on the physical level and whom I don’t really interest. The other one is with whom we might flirt a little bit and with whom, if only they were free and took the matters in their hands, something would definitely happen between us. But I don’t lose sleep because of them (or may be daydreaming for a couple of hours, that is all).

A separate group is men for whom I feel that basic animal pull, but my mind somehow finds it extremely easy to extinguish that pull. I know they are not right for me from the start and have no problem thinking about something else.

The top one would the one with whom I am in love. Emotions running high. Very, very few men and never one-sided. Or one-sided for a very brief amount of time after which I do somehow manage to change focus.

I don’t know if it is just me or most females vs males, but when I was in love with my ex and when I would watch fiction films with my favourite actors, I would be unable to imagine myself being kissed and touched by that character on the screen as I used to when I was not in love with anybody. I could still very well see myself in the place of the heroine, but I would be kissed and touched by my man, not by the man on the screen.

I read that women shouldn’t be afraid of their men watching porn (unless it becomes highly addictive, they say it is an epidemics of sorts now around the world). Maybe the reason for that is the one that you are describing – that for you it passes quickly and you are back to loving your wife the same way.

IS it in fact the definition of marriage is the active ability to withhold desire for the sake of your spouse?

Maybe. For me, it comes naturally. I can’t feel another way with any other man if I am in love with this man. Unless I am in love with both – I have had that terrible experience. But it was being in love with both and it lasted for a couple of months, not a short-term fantasy induced by a movie.

I do need to acknowledge though that even when I was in love with my ex, men from the daydreaming group also crossed my path. And I couldn’t help daydreaming about them (at the same time feeling terribly because I was cheating of sorts). But again, it passed in a couple of hours, a couple of days at most. And my daydreaming hardly ever has sex in it, it is more about the physical touch, like hugging or cuddling or talking about something holding hands.

Maybe it is just me, I don’t know.

So what did he provide you during your relationship?

Well, I was new at the job, just graduated with my second M.A.. Had never had a real relationship even though just turned 24 (you can read more about my unusual and soap-opera worthy love life in that other post of mine), did not find many guys attractive (but didn’t find women attractive either – so something must have been seriously wrong with me), and here he comes. Charming, quite young (just 45 and not 50-55+ as it had been my “curse” with a few exceptions; looking for a father figure probably, but no idea why at the time (plus, there were exceptions!)), prominent in our field (he taught me a lot not only about the work we were doing but about life in general, I still use some of his pieces of advice here and there), willing to divorce his wife (even though his “in a year or two” turned into six years, and he did divorce, but not for me). Besides his being all the time around me (more on this below) and giving the impression that he was always there ready to catch me if I fall (safety and security), he and what he offered (because it all sounded as if our fate is sealed, we found each other and only death will us part) was a winning option if my life in this country didn’t work out. If I returned home with him by my side, it would also be a triumph. I now believe it was mainly safety and security that I was lacking. My family’s trend to see everything as going from bad to worse and certain depression genes were not exactly of help here, either.

Do you think looking back that if you found out he was still being intimate with your wife you would have broke everything off, or just found a way to deal because of what he provided you?

This is the one question that I can’t answer and can’t even begin to answer. You see, I am no fool. Certainly, I studied the internet, stories similar to mine, watched out for all the signs of him not being honest to me about his relationship with his wife, and still could see no “wrong-doing” on his part. There was other evidence that he only maintained a façade of a happy marriage (too many to cover right now – but trust me, I watched out for all of this and grilled him extensively about anything I found suspicious). So the only way I would believe that he was still being intimate with his wife would be only if I saw it with my own eyes. And I tried to break loose several times. Once we only texted each other for three months, no talks on the phone (and he would call me in the morning, on his way back home from work, during my lunch, in my afternoon, for me to wish him good night and would call me to wish me good night) on my initiative. Another time, we didn’t talk at all for three weeks until he emailed me saying that if the two loved each other, they would find a way. I melted and we resumed our regular communication… There were other attempts, too. I think if I had had irrefutable evidence that he was being intimate with her, that would have served as the last straw, and a very heavy one, added to all that load that I already had. I do think that that would have been the deal breaker. But again, I can’t vouch for it. It may also depend on in what year of our relationship that would have happened.

I said above that I couldn’t answer and couldn’t even begin to answer this question because every time I thought about him lying to me and actually being intimate with her, would bring a desire to vomit. And I just couldn’t continue thinking in that direction (seldom happens to me).

Also, I might have that thoughts, be a bit gloomy about it, but when I saw him, when I saw how he eagerly he was looking for my every gesture, how he was watching my every glance and every step, my mind simply refused to believe that a man behaving like this around me could be intimate with another woman. Have you ever seen a video of how in courtship the male bowerbird will dance to the female in an attempt to attract her? If you haven’t, do, because that was the exact impression I had when my ex was around me.

And do you think that if you find a person that provides you the everything that you need right now, they would be worth doing anything for?

Well, after my breakup, I really decided to take the bull by the horns and look into why it was I had had those crushes that I had had (especially, #2 and #3). Tiny Buddha helped a great deal. Slowly I discovered that I didn’t need a man to be there to catch me if I fall. I may not have many good friends, but I do have a few; I live in a country that won’t let you die just like that, out in the street; there are lots of good people out there, one only needs to ask for help if one needs help. In short, I stopped being afraid of life (even though I would have never acknowledged that I had been afraid of it before). The fact that I had already spent that many years at my job, which I love, which allows me to live decently, to have a decent amount of vacation time, and to travel, also helped.

And the fact that I did have a relationship, however unnatural some might call it (in fact, even about LDR, experts’ opinions differ – a few say it is not that much different from a regular relationship), that men do pay attention to me (not my problem if they don’t want to build on initial attraction) helped, too.

Maybe, one of the astounding discoveries was that it is never about us, it is always about them. Love IS in the eye of the beholder. We get attracted to this person and not to that person, not because of what this or that person is, but because of what response, what reaction that person triggers in us. And that reaction is triggered (or not triggered) because of our problems, complexes, insecurities, etc. Of course, chemistry plays a part, too.

Chemistry is a mystery to me. Maybe for me, it is all in the charisma, but not in any charisma. But if I do find a man charismatic, I am attracted to him. On the other hand, I can see why others fall for men whom I do find charismatic and can see why they fall for them, but I personally won’t, no matter what.

These are interesting ideas that I am not sure there are answers for because like you said we are so complicated. Oh one other question, how close do you think you could get to a person of the opposite sex (while being in an intimate relationship) without it being physical, ie. sex?

I am not sure I understand what kind of “closeness” you mean? Especially, “while being in an intimate relationship”? And “without it being physical, ie. sex”? Are you asking about platonic love?

Sorry for the long post. That must be huge. And if you go for my other posts, outright overwhelming… Especially given my style…

But I am very excited discussing it all, so it must be serving some purpose!

Have a great evening!

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