Hi X,

Hi, GL,

About the Rapunzel part, you weren’t sure if the Witch thought the world was evil or not, but I can’t imagine a mother locking up their child if not because they were paranoid about something.

Hmm, I thought that your original stance was that the Witch was not evil, she merely wanted to protect her child. Now you seem to be saying that she was not an ideal mother, the one who would allow her child a certain freedom of movement or exploration. So the question is, if the Witch was a paranoid mother, then her child should probably have been removed from her influence, shouldn’t it? This is exactly what happened. Do you suggest we agree with the developments of the fairy tale, but pity the Witch as a sick person?

Do you not already have the kind of life you want sans a partner? So what difference would a partner make in that life?

Two considerations here that are of equal weight.

First, having a partner whom I love and who loves me would mean that I have a healthy regular sex life. Important for one’s health at any age, isn’t it? And no, I don’t go for the FWB arrangement, nor can I do one-night stands, nor can I have somebody just for the pleasures of sex as one of my friends suggested. Mutual love is a sine qua non for me.

Second, life is unpredictable. I am very comfortable with the job I have. But my contract can be terminated any time and so can my company’s contracts with its clients. A partner would mean an extra safety layer. If I lived in a Scandinavian country, this would be less of an issue as a welfare state would provide that extra security layer, but here I can mostly count on myself.

Furthermore, if I were, say, to break a leg, I could still do my work. A partner could drive me to work and pick me up. If I broke a leg now, of course, I could count on my co-workers and acquaintances, but I would feel very uncomfortable and a burden to them. And I am not even talking about all the inconveniences of being the only one human at home. A friend of mine once broke two arms simultaneously. With an injury like that, one can’t even dress oneself or go to the loo!

Also, in my regular life and when travelling, I often wonder what another person might say to this or that – the need to exchange impressions, I think. Not to mention watching my luggage when I go to the loo or hauling the suitcase into an overhead bin on an airplane.

Just like Matt and I discussed – a partner is a rock and a safety net in life. I can also quote Ecclesiastes, “Two are better than one…”

If you wish for power, then why not strive for it yourself? Why date someone who has it just so you can share a portion of that power? After all, you might have to share the responsibility/burden of their decisions, good and bad.

I don’t have that much of an ego or drive necessary to undertake all the steps on my own.

Besides, I am an excellent partner (if we talk about relationships involving just two people).

You have asked me how far I am ready to go several times. Well, I am ready to go all the way supporting the person, through thick and thin, provided that I believe in him and he believes in what he is doing. Naturally, I am ready to share the responsibility.

Hey, I don’t even mind learning to cook provided that he and I cook together in the same kitchen! Quality time as my primary love language at its best!

And those men who hold doors open is still a choice that they made, the French women didn’t ask for them to.

The question is, are the French men like that just because they are like that, or did the French women do something special so that the French men are like that?

Does your friendship not give you feelings of elation too?

No. Friendships are even, slow-burning affairs. I don’t feel the need to ask what my friends think of this or that all the time. And I don’t want to hug them like I want to hug my men.

Now, it may be that I am actually referring to the initial stage of falling in love when I say “elation.” Naturally, friendships don’t have it.

As for hugging and chemistry, are you familiar with the oriental saying that goes something like this: “Likeness on the level of the mind gives birth to respect, likeness on the level of the heart gives birth to friendship, likeness on the level of the reproductive system gives birth to sexual attraction All the three combined give birth to love”?

So by definition friend and lover are not the same and can’t give the same feeling.

But feelings are fleeting, so why would you trust that more than material goods that you can actually hold in your hand?

Because I was (and am) a romantic.

Ultimately, one never knows what is more reliable: a fortune that can vanish into thin air overnight or a man who loves you and who stays with you no matter whether you have a fortune or not (or who can rebuild a lost fortune himself).

Yet you haven’t chosen to commit suicide even when everything is meaningless so now you feel entitled to an answer in the form of someone loving you. Why is it someone else duty to make you happy?

Because I didn’t ask to be born. Everyone who is courageous and aware enough to ask existential questions finds an answer that suits him or her. Including “no answer” or “just because.” That is my personal version – that I was born to be happy given that I was born at all.

As for the suicide, I am slowly warming up to the idea of euthanasia or merely following this guy right here: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/10/why-i-hope-to-die-at-75/379329/ Who knows – it might be a matter of time eventually.

Many people have lived a “life” alone.

Maybe a life alone is what they wanted? We are talking about what one thinks one wants vs what one gets.

What if they say that their happiness and well-being is being with you no matter what?

Then that’s dependency, not love. They were able to live for themselves before meeting that person and they can do the same after leaving that person. Of course, if they choose to suffer by continuous wallowing, then that’s their choice.

Why “wallowing”? Maybe they say that they are fully aware of all the hardships of “love in a cottage,” yet, they are ready to follow you. And you love them so much that you don’t want to put them through those hardships. Who is right then?

Love is not always about reciprocation but hoping for the other’s happiness and well-being, even if you can’t be with them.

Hoping is so shallow, in my opinion. Don’t “hope,” don’t “try” – go ahead and do things!

And “if you can’t be with them” – but maybe your “can’t” is merely your lack of effort?

You wrote that “jobs can be found anywhere,” but relationships not so much. In another paragraph, you wrote that I was putting my ex on a very high pedestal – given that I was ready to quit my job here and to follow him into our home country. On how high a pedestal exactly are you putting your relationships yourself?

Love does not always need to be equated to romantic passion. Love is also beautiful in its platonic form.

Somehow, for the past five years, I have been only getting platonic unrequited versions of it. Or not exactly unrequited, but definitely not 100% reciprocated. I want something real. I like to build castles in Spain, but I enjoy working with real bricks and stones, too.

But if it’s about appearance or intellect or hobbies or money, etc, then I’ll pass.

Oh really? Say, you are overweight. You know that it is bad for your health. You know that you would be more attractive if you were lean. Your partner says that s/he respects your choice (after all, s/he did fall in love with you the way you were, right?), but gives you the reasons above. Will you insist on staying overweight, because it is “about appearance”?

There are people who become friends after a first date though they did make it clear that the romance wasn’t going anywhere.

True. But as I said, it is seldom that a guy whom you have never seen before and whom you happened to bump into rounding a corner asks you on a date. Normally, before that first date, you have already interacted somewhere, at work, in a club or among friends. So no need for a date for me in a situation like that for me to know if I am interested in him romantically or not. I know already.

So you do agree that males are taught to be tough and strong?

It is a sexist socialization that is still happening. It is any wonder that men still understand their emotions by the time that they become an ‘adult’.

But this is objective reality that one needs to take into account when interacting with men. One may not like it, but it is there.

My ex would often refer to an anecdote when a woman asks her partner to tell her the truth promising no scenes and when he complies and tells her all the truth, she goes through the roof.

Was your ex warning you that he doesn’t like shrill women?

No idea. We would often exchange articles and findings about men-women interactions, behaviours and psychologies.

He also like to recall one instance at work where he could marry a big boss’s daughter and get all his coveted promotions at once. And he said he would never go for it.

I guess he liked to think of himself as a very noble person and such stories naturally underpinned that image that he projected.

Have I already mentioned that he had a few women around him, both married and not, with whom he was on excellent terms? When I asked him, say, what his ex (his wife’s friend) was to him, he would say “a friend.” Like that, one was (I am sure his wife was, I certainly was, and from what I know it hasn’t changed for his current wife) painfully (as anxious-attachment style) aware that he wouldn’t have any problem replacing one with somebody else for there were a few around him all the time.

Just plain curiosity and an understandable human desire to make sure that I am not worse than others, maybe even better off in the long run.

Worse than others? What’s the point of comparing yourself?

No point, just observing how life turns out for different people.

Aren’t you friends on social networks with your former classmates and colleagues? Even with those with whom you don’t interact anymore? Nearly everyone is guilty of browsing through their lists of “friends.” Only some do it every other day. I have done it maybe two or three times in the course of the last ten years. But yes, I did do it. At the same time, I do know people who are not on Facebook. But that way, they don’t have the temptation.

Give or take, after a few years people won’t care about the affairs of your ex and will move on.

True. But for his job, age matters. What he could afford to do when he was 30 was not something he could afford to do when he was 50. Remember, he did divorce his first wife himself when she gave birth to another man’s baby? But back then, he was in his early 20s and still had a lifetime of opportunities.

You still want to be right about your ex being an narcissist.

Okay, if you tell me that you have what it takes in psychology background to pronounce my ex not to be a covert narcissist from what I have written about him so far, I will believe you.

If you are only an amateur in psychology, then I’d say that your guess is as good as mine.

I am merely discussing different versions, like an investigator who puts together pieces of a puzzle. Yet, it seems that the mere fact of my ex not keeping his promise if enough for you to say that he is not worthy right off the bat.

An investigator does not insist on being right, but being correct and you still want to be ‘right’ about your ex.

Would you like to discuss what tinges of meanings “right” and “correct” have?

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/right

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/correct

How is anyone to be trusted when they don’t try to take actions when they say they would?

If somebody did 9 things out of 10 that he had promised and had mitigating circumstances surrounding the 10^th, I still insist that s/he is to be trusted.

Also, how would your ex know whether the divorce would have effected his career standings if he didn’t try to talk to people about it?

He would have been the first one to divorce before he landed that big promotion, so there was no way for him to know except for the fact that yes, in that industry, married status (and certainly not divorced “in the midst of the action”) is a huge plus.

And after the promotion finally took place (in Year 4), the very same day he had a talk with people from a different branch who, as he said, offered him a different position. That new position would allow him to keep his current job, but be much more independent as he would now be working in a different branch. So he (we) started waiting for that new job offer.

Now, when he and I had that nice calm talk (during which he said that the only thing that had happened to him was him having fallen in love with that new woman), I asked him about that new job offer. He said he was still waiting for it. I caustically remarked that somehow that hadn’t prevented him from divorcing his wife. He said that had not been easy.

Men are known to fall for new women even when everything is fine in their current relationship. As somebody said, they fall in love anew not because the new woman is better, but because she is different. Say, what was missing for Tiger Woods in his blond supermodel wife?… That is why I do think that for my ex, his love simply has a shelf life. Sooner or later, he wants change and new “high,” emotions and upheaval in his life.

I mean, if no rational explanation fits, the explanation must be irrational. Feelings and emotions are irrational – that is why I arrived at the conclusion above.

During that same conversation, my ex also noted that “I was not difficult to be with.”

As for the job offer, I do know for a fact that that conversation took place (he had to go on a one-day business trip to another city to talk), but I think that what he took for a “job offer” was something like “Well, we hope to see you here soon.” And he, with his ego, took it for a set in stone proposal.

He wouldn’t tell me what the job was, but was adamant that it was as certain as death and taxes.

What measure did he take to ensure that the divorce wouldn’t change how people viewed him?

Exactly. He kept repeating that he “was doing everything he could.” If you love a man, if you have been with him for several years and he has kept all his promises so far, if you know that that industry requires a man to keep quiet about some things even to his spouse, how can you not believe him when he says that he is doing everything he can to make the divorce happen ASAP?

I don’t know if he was a skilful manipulator who knew what type of a person I was (though if he had been, he should have told me about his new love right away and not gone MIA) or whether it is just me, but he would sometimes say things, and I would remember them all the time. And recall them when things got tough. Even though he said those words only once. One of such phrases was “I have never lied to you.” Another one was “I do know what you are going through for I went through all of it myself [meaning his married women].”

Though I wonder what changed the wife’s mind all of a sudden that she pursued him again.

Maybe she was in Denial before, but now Bargaining and/or Anger kicked in?

Anyway, that is a mystery to me. Especially in the light of my ex saying that she was reading a particular self-help popular psychology book. I had heard about that book before, read it myself (just to know what was going on my ex’s wife’s mind) and was relieved to see that the author suggested letting go everybody who wants to go. Apparently, my ex’s wife decided against following that advice. She even wrote to me on social media something along the lines of “Let him go, find yourself a young man, get married and have kids.” Naturally, I could only scoff at that and block her.

I also need to add that she seemed to be very much of John’s girlfriend’s type in his thread https://tinybuddha.com/topic/very-confused-new-girlfriend-ex-girlfrend-help-me-please/page/30/

She would often ring when my ex and I were together, and I would often be witness to my ex’s conversations with her, and I could hear her tone of voice and intonation and words. (And his intonation, too – I knew then that when he started talking to me like that, it would mean it is all over. And so it was in that month after he met his new love and before he went MIA on me.)

At the beginning, he hid from her in the bathroom so that he could talk to me and she couldn’t hear because of flowing water. Then he started phoning when she was not at home (until Year 4 when he suddenly stopped caring whether she was at home or not). Also, around that time when she changed her mind about pursuing him and interfering with our romance, she made a scene in which she darted to the window and, as my ex said, he caught her right in time. Of course, my ex might have been lying – so many married men say that their wives threaten with suicide, don’t they? – but again, I myself heard her on the phone when she rang to him many times, I had that accidental recording in Year 5 with her shrills, so I tend to believe him. And he was not himself when he recounted the occurrence to me one day later. So naturally, from that day on, he started to try to provoke her as little as possible.

Of course, in addition to the industry’s “happy married life” standards, a wife who killed herself because of her husband’s affair is the last thing he wanted.

So in a sense, my tenacity and patience made it so much easier for my ex’s current wife. She didn’t have to deal with all this because I had dealt with all that before her. I also do believe, rightly or wrongly, that my ex didn’t tell me about all the scenes that he was subject to – or maybe he wanted me to think that he was so noble that he was sparing me all that when in fact there was none. Who knows?

But if there is really no guaranteed that they would come back or if I could not guaranteed that I would come back, would it not be foolish to even make a promise in the first place? It’s war and life has no guaranteed that you would even live tomorrow, so what is the use in promises such as that?

Can you guarantee that you will live tomorrow in life, not war? Can you guarantee that you will not die in a car accident or have a stroke or a heart attack tomorrow?

Then what is the use in promising anything at all?

That is why exactly how my ex twisted it in the end saying that he was doing all he could (to divorce ASAP), but he wouldn’t be promising me anything from now on.

Yet he didn’t keep the most important one, divorce to be with you.

As I said, I was already hooked and too much invested time-, effort- and emotionwise (it was already Year 3 of the relationship) to be able to get out. And this promise of his had weighty mitigating circumstances around it.

You don’t need to be a narcissist to watch people, take notes of their habits, hobbies and lifestyle then memorize that information for your own use. Stalkers are very creative in how to use information of their targets to stalk them. Nobody’s Victim by Carrie Goldberg is a very good book about how the internet has made cyber stalking easier than ever.

Or you can be in love. It is amazing how quickly one remembers everything that the other party says about their childhood, friends, family, hobbies, likes and dislikes when one is in love. No need to repeat – the information is retained right away.

And why are bringing cyber stalking up here?

Just for your information, even though I do have social media accounts, I have the bare minimum filled out there, just one picture and no posts or updates whatsoever.

And yes, I still survive without a smartphone.

Write letters? Is there a need to call each other every day? Wouldn’t you run out of topics to talk about? You have a life to live outside of your relationship so isn’t that something to concentrate on?

Yes, we did run out of topics in Year 6. BUT that was because the divorce was not coming, his paperwork regarding coming to this country was stalled and I didn’t feel comfortable discussing travel plans or our future life together when nothing was officially certain.

But before that, we did feel the need to be as present in each other’s life virtually as much as possible. Certainly reeks of co-dependence. After all, co-dependence and narcissism have the same needs: https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/codependency-narcissism-may-have-more-in-common-than-you-think-0807187

And because I could be flexible, everything revolved around my ex’s job and his timetable. Fits a narcissist, from my amateurish standpoint.

If he feels that you don’t serve much of a purpose in his life anymore then he can dump you, though it seems that he isn’t very good with face to face confrontation since he didn’t break up with you in person?

It feels as if his love for me was diminishing with time. And along with it was diminishing his interest (or need) in what I could give him enriching his life and career. And then – all of a sudden – he meets that other woman, his penis goes hard (we hadn’t had sex for over ten months by then, and I don’t think he was intimate with his wife), he is in love anew and he immediately starts finding reasons for this new love being the real true love answering his new (or old) needs.

That is my theory.

As for breaking up with me in person, partially, it is true that one never knows how the other person will behave, so I can see why he – on the intelligent level – one might want to postpone that kind of talk for as long as possible.

But on the other hand, it is plain disrespect to go MIA; then to say that he would call, but instead text that he was too tired and not to reschedule; to give some nonsense about changing one’s mind about “us” and deciding to remain with one’s wife, etc. etc. And cowardice, too.

I also didn’t like that during our attempt to reignite our passion (which was happening after he had already promised himself to his new lady), he clearly said that my painted sequence of events (he goes to our home country, divorces his wife and marries that new lady) could be easily changed. How do you like that???

That, along with how he was returning the money he had borrowed, how he stopped taking care of my mobile phone for international travel and how he unfriended me everywhere are enormous red flags for me. I didn’t like how he was giving presents to everybody in my presence except me only. I shall never forget it should he ever try to come back. (Highly unlikely since he never went back to anybody, but rather found a new woman, but who knows, right?)

Maybe now would be a good time to make friends. You may have acquaintances who you speak to, but that can’t replace an actual friend who would hold your hand, should you request it, as you try to sort out your affairs. A friend who would not judge you for your actions, unless those actions were truly spiteful, but who would honestly tell you when you’ve made a mistake. A friend who won’t leave you regardless of the geographic distance between you, unlike any potential lovers.

Such friends as you describe are hard to find and such friendships normally build over several years. Yet in my life, I have had people with whom I was very close for extended periods of time, but who, as time showed, stopped being friends (or maybe, didn’t consider me to be their friend in the first place themselves).

The friend who presumably got tired of listening to my complaints about my ex not divorcing told me that she would write to me once settled in another country. Never did. Internet research showed she is still in this country. I reached out to her three times (that is my magic number), didn’t hear back and stopped. And she was the one who told me that that is exactly what friends are for – to listen to you when you are down!

One more friend from the university stopped responding just like that. Presumably busy with her kid and expecting another one, but three times – no answer, and I stop knocking.

Another childhood friend. We had such a lovely summer together in that village in my home country before I went away to study. Yet, when I wrote her a letter about my arrival and experiences (similar to Michelle’s travel ramblings), I got something like, “X, what is this??? Who do you take me for reading through all this stuff???” Then she stopped coming to the village and at some point she confessed that that summer had been the worst memory ever in her life (!) because her father had made her stay in the village.

And one more childhood friend from school – the one I have been trying to break from for over a dozen years now. This time it is me the initiator. I think I wrote about it.

So now I am down to just two girlfriends my age.

On the other hand, I have a really good solid friendship with a lady who is my mother’s age and two more with whom we exchange letters now and then. I have also been a penpal with an elderly lady for about fifteen years until she passed away. I am a penpal with another elderly relative of mine.

As for men, both my age and older, everything is much more superficial and hectic, possibly because men don’t like to discuss emotions or personal affairs.

I am not trying to justify myself, but after reading this article: https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2019/8/1/20750047/millennials-poll-loneliness, it seems that I am not that different from the vast majority of my peers. If we talk about true friends who know all or nearly all about you and maintain regular interaction, not friends who are more like good acquaintances.

 

Furthermore, I was under the impression that Shelby from this thread https://tinybuddha.com/topic/trying-to-deal-with-anxiety-and-loss-after-relationship-break-up/page/86/ was the one to follow in terms of friendships. But now she questions a lot of her friendships writing “It’s just I facilitated the friendships 80% perhaps and like my family, they got used to it. When I pulled back to 50% they didn’t rush to make up the 30%.”

 

Well, I never put 80% if the other party puts only 20%. I may put 80% if I know that the other side is going through a difficult stage etc., etc. But if I continuously receive only 20%, I pull back to see what would happen. Hence my three attempts to reach out to the other party if our 50%-50% has been disrupted.

 

Do you think I fear to be in a relationship? I don’t suppose I am, at least not in a relationship involving a friend.

 

Maybe I am afraid of being in a relationship involving a boyfriend? Because they can cheat, turn their back on you, not support you when you need it most? That is what Matt suggested, but he didn’t elaborate why he thought so.

 

Or do I fear a relationship because I want it to be absolutely perfect and wouldn’t agree to anything less than perfect (perfect in my opinion)? But can I know whether it is perfect or not unless I try? Hence unavailable men?

Before you enter into any romantic relationships, enter into a friendship that will show you that people can support each, regardless if they are family, partners or friends. But you’ll have to do the same for that person since reciprocation is a two way street in any relationship.

Normally, I am the one who reaches out and stops reaching out only after three attempts ended in no response.

Problem is I can be friends with men (that respect and friendship – the likeness of minds and hearts from that oriental description), but because of lack of chemistry (no sexual chemistry), I can’t envision the vast majority of them for my boyfriends. And I know early in the relationship whether I can or cannot.

True, I intend to spend time learning about the other person if I feel that we have sexual chemistry for each other. But this is what I tried to do with my ex. Two months of regular communication by all means after just two weeks together at work was just that – me trying to get to know him. I was naïve, I thought that after he said “I love you,” he would proceed to divorcing his wife. After I said I loved him, the very next day, I summoned my #2 and said it was all over between us.

So, because he dated so many, he understands some of the things required for a relationship to function.

Don’t agree. He may understand some of the things required for a relationship to function, but he can’t say that he understands things that are required for a relationship to function long-term exactly because he goes from one date to another and has never really had a long-term relationship.

In all honesty, I can’t understand how people who haven’t lived with their partners for 50+ years can give advice on how to make one’s partnership last 50+ years.

Or how somebody who has been divorced three times can write books on how to keep one’s marriage healthy and strong and divorce-proof. Walk the talk, show that what you are, practise what you yourself are preaching, including how to choose right partners.

How exactly does that chemistry turn into love? From what I remember, it’s he asked you out, you date and then you decided you want to spend forever with him?

I maybe one of those who decide that I want to spend forever with him before he even asks me out. And then I may be confirmed in my initial impression or, on the contrary, I may find out that I had been wrong – the chemistry that seemed to be there is not there. That is why I want to find out about the man as much as possible before we date so that I know whether I am still interested (that the chemistry I felt didn’t evaporate) and don’t lead him on.

I am super flexible once I know that I like the man. I don’t care about the colour of the eyes, hair, weight, job, hobbies – I find everything fascinating and worth trying myself.

I am like water assuming the shape of the vessel it is poured into.

Perfect ground for co-dependency you’d say?

Those who are co-dependent can be very picky about who they pursue. Remember Hof? He fiercely resented his mother so he only romance and sleep with little girls because he couldn’t stand the thought of sleeping with someone who might turn into his mother one day. So his ‘relationships’ were more business transactions that soothed his ego than a real, steady relationship. Your ex had a certain criteria that he operated on and you probably stopped fitting in that criteria since he had moved on so fast to the #4. Though you’ll have to ask him about that.

Yeah, I have been wondering about the role of his mother in his life. Oh, don’t get me wrong – she is a very nice lady, very devoted to her husband and son. Only I have been wondering if my ex kept competing with his father for the attention of his mother as many boys do and never grew out of it.

As if he had an ideal of a woman in his mind, his hormones, chemistry and whatnot would make him think that he has finally found her (for the umpteenth time), but then, as time passes, his emotions subside, love never takes place of infatuation and he is ready for a new surge of emotions and passion, a new “high,” and he tries to see if the new woman fits his vague ideal.

Actually, I did ask him what was going on between him and his wife when he seemed to be courting me during our first two weeks following our initial meeting. He said everything was all right between them, but now he had met me.

It was the same answer when I asked him why he had left me six years later – “Nothing wrong with you or us, it was just that I met her, I fell in love, I couldn’t resist.”

True, he might not have been honest, but by then he had already divorced, married his current wife, he and I interacted totally normally, and he knew that the guy “who led me on” was pursuing me. And he knew that I liked that other guy. So I don’t see why he would have lied especially given how steady his pattern of dealing with women is (fall in love – charm – put on a pedestal – fall in love anew & discard the old one).

So you’re not wanting to date to prove to your mum that you can have a relationship even when you don’t care to cook, etc?

No. I haven’t dated and am not dating anyone since the breakup. And I certainly didn’t date my ex just to prove my mother that “hey, I’ve found a man who doesn’t mind my not cooking.”

Where did you get that idea from?

In everything I write, I do my best to differentiate the emotional level (doing something in spite or to prove something to somebody) and the intelligent level (at which all that doesn’t matter). I like to think that I follow my emotions only if my brains say okay, that can’t hurt.

Though, there are such things as ‘friends with benefits’ so not too different. Well, you and your friend will draw the line somewhere.

What “friend”? My new hypothetical friend who might become my boyfriend after a certain period of friendship provided that I feel the right sexual chemistry for him from the start? If, if and if…

Three months seemed too short a mourning period for a six years relationship so was wondering if you really did let yourself mourn.

Where do three months come from?

If you are referring to the book on how to survive breakups, it promised to get one past the most acute, early stage in three months. In over half a year or so before he went MIA, there was nothing for us to talk about, remember? The anxious me combined with the knowledge of how married men could walk out on their mistresses any time had always been ready for a breakup at the tiniest sign of change in our routine or tone of voice. I think I was already preparing for it on some deeper level given the stall. Then when he went MIA, I was travelling elsewhere. Then I returned and started reading that book. Then, one month after he went MIA, I got him on the phone and he said that he was going to stay with his wife. Then about one more month later he did tell me about his new love adding that he had made a blunder with her and if he couldn’t remedy it, if I wanted it so badly, we could try again. WHAT??? That was the final straw. I kept reading the book now in earnest given that he finally voiced it about the breakup. Then the guy who led me on started writing to me. A couple of male friends over here got me out for walks and talks, male perspectives and amusement park for a rush of adrenaline. I kept reading the book, things started making sense and everything was sinking in. But I would wake up in the wee hours and couldn’t sleep well. That is when I asked for antidepressants. That initial dosage (that stayed the same and that was never increased) helped a lot with the sleep. Then my ex came here for work and we had that botched attempt to get back together. That was my closure. The book was no longer needed. I went to my home country. When I came back, shortly after that I went travelling again and met the “guy on the trip.” After I returned, the “guy who led me on” started communicating with me really a lot this time around. And my ex came for work again. But I was no longer that interested in my ex because of the past, his lack of interest in me and seeming interest from those two new guys, both of which seemed like a step up and forward from my ex.

So it was not really three months, it was more like eight months between my ex going MIA (if we don’t count some six months of us not having seen each other and exchanging a couple of phrases on the phone morning in evening before that) and me finally being able to imagine myself kissing and making love to another guy.

And then I went travelling again – that was the place where I had been and had been dreaming about my #2. This time I was thinking really a lot about the guy “who led me on.” Next that guy stopped communicating. In a couple of months I went travelling again to a place where I had been with my ex. It was one more closure for me because it was then that I stopped hearing his loving remarks to funny and awkward situations that I find myself in (like dropping something by accident) and it was their where I found myself thinking about the guy “who led me on” a lot still. And that was already one year after the breakup.

So yes, I am really grateful to the guy “who led me on” for having shifted my focus from my ex to an emotional affair or quasi-relationship with him.

But it took me about three (!) years to get over him. And this thread was initially right about that – why I still kept thinking about him 15 months after he stopped communicating with me.

Besides, I really don’t know whether a long-distance relationship is 100% equal in intensity and feelings to the one happening here and now. Some say it is, others that it is not really a relationship.

So how is imagining being with somebody a sign of love? That looks more a sign of interest than love.

To me it is. “Love” here as in “infatuation,” not as in the deep love stage that comes after all the initial attraction has worn off. If I am in love with somebody, I can imagine being only with him. If I am not in love with anybody, I can imagine myself being with A and being with B and being with C.

But thinking of someone 24/7? Are you actually thinking of them while you eat and work?

YES! I had my #1 on my mind and he never went away even though I was in the midst of my M.A. exams. It was the same with my ex – I would do things, even say things and he, the image of him was still there before my eyes and the feeling of him all around me like subtitles on the screen (if you swap the picture and the subtitles, in my case, the image of my love interest was the subtitles and the picture was what I was doing).

Yet he was willing to have sex with you even when he wasn’t willing to leave his partner? I understand sex is important in a relationship, but was there not a red flag that he was willing to bed you yet leave once his wife called?

Right, that is why I wrote that I had never gone that far with him again and that I rose the issue of him divorcing his wife myself now that it was obvious that he wasn’t going to do that without my prompts.

I still don’t understand the process in which you fall in love and decide to stay with someone. Certainly, fantasy give you certain joy and a happy feeling, but reality isn’t that bad. Your basis on starting any relationship (by imagining being together) looks like it stems from chemistry, but it’s tamer than what I’ve seen. Take your ex for example, you didn’t like him at first yet changed your mind the next day, was it? What changed? How had you suddenly develop chemistry for him?

I thought long and hard about this one. I suppose you are right, the attraction is based on chemistry in the first place, but after that I think it is the eyes. Looking in the eyes. I clearly remember how I thought that that guy might not be that bad after I didn’t like him at first (I am talking about my ex) right after we looked right into each other’s eyes.

It was the same with #1, only I did like him at first glance, but the decision to try and pursue him (I didn’t know he had a partner then) became clear after our eyes met and stayed locked for some time.

It might be the same with the big boss guy now (or rather, some time ago, since I haven’t seen him for over two months now and there is nothing on the Internet to give food to my imagination) – I realised I was interested after he locked his eyes with me several times.

When I researched why somebody would stare at you like that, this is one of the most interesting things that popped up: https://www.glamour.com/story/eye-contact-syncs-brain-activity

On the other hand, the guy from the trip had a most innocent, puppy-sad look in his eyes and so did one of my shooting instructors (for whom I could very well fall, but he never pursued me), but these two’s poor pattern of communication made my brain command me to forget them as they obviously were not putting enough effort in the relationship (personal for the former, business for the latter). And I couldn’t find any excuse for them.

At the same time, the guy who led me on, the big boss guy, my ex – they all have that perfect excuse that my brain makes up for them. That they are lost, don’t know what they want, suffered from another love of their lives who jilted them, have young kids at home, that their wives are demanding bitches, etc. etc. And here I am who knows their worth, who will support them through thick and thin, who really loves them no matter what – I can show them that beauty, intelligence and faithfulness can coexist!… Now, I am not saying that all of this is valid for all of them in equal measure, but you get the picture.

So to an extent, I am making the same mistake that the ancient Greeks were making thinking that a person with a perfect body has a perfect soul. I can state that I have met quite a few men with such “windows to their souls” (aka eyes) that it is almost unbelievable what jerks they turned out to be eventually. Yet, they were jerks indeed. Lesson learnt – don’t trust the eyes.

But more than this, I’m more curious as to why you want a relationship so badly when you don’t do much to cultivate your acquaintanceship into friendships. What’s so great about a romantic relationship when you can’t share the ups and downs with friends, complain over a cup of tea or wine, bond over shared interests, have a person who’ve seen you at your worse, but still decided to stick in your life, etc? That person doesn’t have to be a romantic partner. And you can only do so much with a romantic relationship and even then, you have lived a life sans a partner. You have lived your life so far with and without a partner. So granted, you can live life without having a romantic partner.

So now the question, why so desperate for one?

I suppose I am a victim of society’s view on marriage as an exclusive relationship above and beyond all others: https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/07/case-against-marriage/591973/

Again, this is emotional, aka “How I would love it to be” – yes, I would love to do everything with my partner, for us to shadow each other always. But then everything I read points out that this is not sustainable, and my logical mind agrees with that. And I didn’t quite reach the point in my only more or less real relationship with my ex where I could test it.

Other reasons for my wanting to have a partner were described above.

You ‘reasoned’ over your childhood memories, does that sound anything pleasant to you? Better to erred on the side of caution than not.

Oh yes, I love those memories! Only my mind always brings me back to what I have now (vs how I imagined it would be) and I don’t like the difference between the dreams and the reality (even though my reality is not that bad at all!!!) Also, the knowledge that one can’t relive those days when everything was still possible, all the routes open, everyone was still living and I didn’t know what I know now is bittersweet.

But I mentioned them just because these memories (also memories of where I travelled when) help me to remember the exact year when this or that happened. After that I can proceed to other memories and other events, maybe not so pleasant. This is how, if needed, I can dig up a lot memories and remember exactly how I was, what I felt and what I was doing at almost any time of my life – something that my parents are surprised at: “How do you remember all that?” Now, as the article I pasted the link to says, not all of those memories may be real, but this is what started this passage on memories.

Have a great September!