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A friendship puzzle I'd appreciate help understanding

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  • #104954
    Vesper
    Participant

    I have recently begun to forge a new friendship with a coworker. Having fallen out with two other coworkers a few months back, I was cautious about moving too quickly with her until we got to know each other well, but initial experiences were positive. Over the course of about six months we got together outside work a dozen times or so, and she had me convinced she was a happy, warm-hearted person who genuinely wished to spend time with me.

    I will admit there were a couple times along the way wherein I saw glimpses of something dark in her, but they were brief and I wrote them off as a bad day, or possibly a touch of mild depression. She is not happy in her job and she’s unhappy with her figure and her dark moods seemed to center around those two things.

    One day she invited me to go to Las Vegas with her for a “girl’s weekend” to celebrate her birthday. At first I was uncertain, but she seemed eager to have my company and I thought it sounded fun. I wanted to believe it was the beginning of a close friendship – something I’ve not had for a long time. I’m married with children while she is twice divorced and she lives with her cat, however, she assured me she was looking for a relaxing, fun weekend – not going to pick up guys. So, I agreed to go.

    She made all the arrangements and paid for everything. I made dozens of attempts to contribute financially, but she wouldn’t allow it. I felt a bit uncomfortable, but I bought her a very nice gift and made arrangements for some fun activities while we were there.

    The night we were to fly out, I actually fell down a flight of stairs while leaving work for the day. I got banged up pretty bad and had scraped knees, but I assured her I was going to soldier on and would not allow it to impact her weekend. Despite being bruised and sore I was good to my word and did not mention it again during our entire trip. I bandaged my wounds in private and kept on smiling. She, however, while initially concerned for me, seemed to take great delight in teasing me about it. Each time we’d come to a flight of stairs she would say, “Now, be careful. I don’t want you to fall again.” And then it progressed to a much more condescending “Does mommy need to hold your hand so you don’t fall?” I laughed it off, but this became a theme for her the entire weekend.

    If I had anything to drink she’d say, “Don’t drink too much. I don’t want you falling down the stairs again.” Or “You’re drunk. Why don’t you sit down before you fall again.” At the pool it was, “Don’t slip and fall. You’ll crack your head open and there will be blood in the water.” At one point on day three I’d had enough and rather gently asked, “So, do you think maybe you’ve worn that one out yet, because it’s getting a little old.” To which she replied, “Nope! I think I can still get some mileage out of it!”

    Each morning I would wake early, shower, run down to the concierge lounge and get us coffee and pastries and leave hers on the table for her. Each day she seemed to grudgingly eat and drink what I left, but never thanked me. On her birthday I gave her the expensive earrings I’d bought and upon opening them she simply said, “Pretty.” And dropped the box and wrappings on the table where they sat until the next day.

    She lost a little money gambling and started to pout. I won a bit and I could see this irked her so I stopped gambling at all and just sat by her side and cheered her on and bought her drinks. When her machine was played out, I took her to a little jewelry store where we’d both seen a couple necklaces we liked and bought them both with the money I’d won. I got about the same reaction when I gave her the necklace as I had with the earrings. Lackluster.

    I took her zip-lining down Fremont Street, which was something SHE had initially suggested, but upon arriving I could see she was very nervous. I tried to encourage her and boost her confidence. She, of course, had to remind me not to trip and fall while climbing the stairs. At the top of the tower, she pointed to ME and announced to the group in front of us, “She’s terrified.” which almost made me laugh because she was the one who was scared. When we were done, she could not bring herself to smile or be happy it was over. She just sat with a grumpy face and told me she was ready to leave.

    When she wasn’t being grumpy she was “cheerfully mean-spirited.” That’s the only way I can describe it. She criticized anyone and everyone walking past – mocked their clothes, hair, weight, you name it – and often did so in a voice loud enough to be overheard. I was mortified. If I dared to shush her she’d come back with something like, “Oh who gives a f**k if they overhear me. What are they going to do about it?” She made a point of telling any man who smiled at me that I was married, “She’s married you know?” even though I wore my wedding ring the entire weekend – and she took great delight in telling me I snore and take too long to get ready in the morning.

    One thing in particular that really made me both sad and confused was that everywhere we went, she would take off walking as fast as she could and leave me behind. She stayed 5-10 paces ahead of me at all times. If I walked faster to keep up, she’d make an abrupt turn and keep walking. She didn’t seem interested in walking beside me and sharing conversation, or slowing down long enough to enjoy the sights. All weekend long she power-walked and I trailed behind like a child.

    At one point I was sitting on my bed wondering how I was going to endure the long drive home with her – practically in tears with frustration over how hard I’d tried to make her happy, how bummed out I was that she’d turned out to be someone I couldn’t like, and how hurt my feelings were over the barrage of meanness she’d served up in the face of my kindness. I wanted to escape and catch an early flight home. This is how sad and unhappy I was – so I KNOW I didn’t imagine it. It was real. I’ve only related half of the insanity here.

    However, since our return I’ve seen her four times in the office and she’s been completely and utterly sweet and wonderful toward me. It’s left me scratching my head and wondering if maybe I imagined it, but I know I didn’t. It wasn’t homesickness or just fatigue on my part. It was like working with Dr. Jekyl and going on vacation with Mr. Hyde.

    Has anyone else had a similar experience? I’m completely at a loss to explain it, and perhaps it really isn’t important either way. I don’t wish to continue a friendship with someone I can’t trust and respect, but I do have to work with her and I’m wondering if there is any insight that might help me understand her better.

    Thanks so much for reading. Have a great day! ☺

    #104955
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Vesper:

    I didn’t read your thread yet. I noticed you haven’t been here for a while and thought you may not return, felt sad about that, and then just logged in and not only are you back, but you are back with a thread! (Finally, you said you will, a long time ago and I was looking forward to one!) I am so excited, I had to write you this. Now I will read the above and after that write the next paragraph.

    Just read it and was mortified myself that the lovely Vesper, so clearly a gentle soul (from your previous posts on this site) ended up in a weekend from hell with that woman. You spent a weekend with your opposite. You are kind; she was rude. You were gentle, she was crude; you were as loving (in practice) as can be, she was abusive. There are more adjectives I can come up with to describe the stark opposites in behavior.

    Now, the challenge, trying to understand her better. I am going to start with her birth, and I am smiling at how absurd it sounds, but bear with me, this is my guess: so she was born loving and lovable, needing and wanting nothing but to love and be loved. Then she was taken home by her parents. What happened next is that she was criticized, rejected, ignored, made fun of. She was hurt, her innocent trust in her mother (and/or father) was shattered, and she got angry, understandably.

    She kept reaching out to them, kept trying to earn their approval in a million ways but never received the approval she so desperately needed. As she became a woman, she carried her anger, still circulating in her brain, as the past does. Her relationships with (good) men failed because her anger and abuse drove them away from her. Fast forward, at work, she acts nice, as she always acts when she reaches out to people, at first. She can do that, for short periods of time.

    Fast forward, the Vegas trip- she pays, she feels she owns you, and she is in Vegas, time to let her hair down. So she has fun by directing her anger in ways that entertain her. It feels good for her to be the one mocking, the one criticizing, the one ignoring, the one… one like her mother was to her. It is fun to be on the other side of an abusive relationship.
    Back at work, what happened in Vegas stays in Vegas. Until next time.

    The child that she was, loving and lovable is locked inside her. You can see glimpses of her, when she is angry, when she reaches out for love, glimpses. But the one in control is a woman passing on the abuse to the next person.

    Business as usual. What do you think so far, Vesper?

    anita

    #104973
    Vesper
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    I’m so happy to receive a reply from you. I knew you’d have a brilliant idea and you’ve hit the nail about as close to the head as I think you could have. Let me say two things briefly and then I have to go take the dog for a quick walk, but I’ll be back later:

    First, this person, Vegas Friend, is adopted. She was given up for adoption as a baby and while I thought she had a great childhood, she admitted to me this weekend that her adoptive mother is quite mean. I read it as more “abrasive” than “abusive.” She seems to have a good relationship with her adoptive father. She did seek out and meet her birth mother and told me the reunion didn’t go well, but they do keep in touch now and then. So, that probably is a giant clue to support your theory. Let me know what you think of that.

    On another note, I have still been lurking around this site, but wasn’t really sure some of the contributions I had to make were helpful. If that smacks of self-pity I don’t mean for it to, only that I often relate to people by comparing with my own experiences. While this does allow me to be genuinely empathetic because I can totally feel what they are feeling, it may not enable me to give them the best advice as to what to do in THEIR particular situation, so I thought perhaps I wasn’t the best person to chime in. However, I’ve have wanted to reach out to you and when I sat contemplating this crazy weekend, you were the first person I thought of. 🙂

    Thank you so much for your reply. I will be back later. I’m glad we are in touch at last. 🙂

    #104988
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Vesper:

    Indeed we got in touch at last and I am glad.

    It is okay if you don’t reply to posts here, for whatever reason. You can still start a thread like this! It can be tough to give your all replying and never get a reply from the person to whom you wrote. But I am used to it and am okay with it. So you decide, if it is uncomfortable for you, please do not do what is uncomfortable for you- that will defeat the purpose of being on this site. it is for you to benefit from it, not to be harmed in any way, even if the harm is a discomfort.

    I am honored that you thought of me regarding this weekend.

    And about the Vegas Friend (or fiend, more like it): from her sharing you thought her adoptive mother was abrasive, well that’s abusive because it doesn’t take a whole lot of cruelty to hurt a child. A young child is so dependent, so trusting, so invested, that a little bit of cruelty goes a long, long way in damaging the child. A “small” cruelty, if persistent and not corrected, does harm. And then, from her sharing with you, it seemed to you that she had a good relationship with her father. Well, since your Vegas Friend, as a child, had no healthy, loving model of parent-child relationship available, it can be simply that her father was not abrasive. So in comparison to her mother he was good. He still may have ignored her much of the time.

    The way you can tell if a person, an adult-child had good, loving parents and a good childhood, is not in what they tell you about their parents and their childhood (lots of it is distorted by the child and adult child, being so invested in believing they were loved). The way you can tell is by the well being- or lack of well being- of the adult child.

    If a person is angry on an ongoing basis, and/ or anxious and troubled much of the time, having lived a troubled life, that means in the great majority of the cases, that the person did not have a good, loving childhood with good, loving parents.

    Back to posting here and otherwise on the website: whenever you feel like it, wherever you feel like it. If you feel like it.

    I would be glad to reply to you anytime you post here (or start a new thread)!

    anita

    #105005
    Vesper
    Participant

    Dear Anita, patient Anita, 🙂

    Thank you for your reply and your insight. I wonder how it is that at 50 I can still be as naive and completely unable to read people. I always want to believe the best of people. Even when I find indisputable evidence to the contrary, as I did this weekend, I find myself second-guessing what I’ve seen. I always ask myself if perhaps I’ve misunderstood or am being too quick to judge. And especially after a day like today, wherein she seemed perfectly nice to me once more, I’m left wondering if I overreacted.
    Every now and then I get lucky and I open up to someone who doesn’t betray my trust; my husband and maybe three close friends, but more often I find myself disappointed, or worse, left with hurt feelings. I would think that kindness would attract more kindness in others, but instead I find kindness is too often confused with weakness and I end up getting burned.
    That’s just a personal observation. I probably wouldn’t change even if I could. I’m just shocked that I can still BE shocked at this point.
    More tomorrow. Have a great night and thanks again for your reply! Big hugs to you!!! 🙂

    #105007
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Vesper:

    My brain came to a halt a few moments ago and bed time is my only option (am i funny?)

    I just read your first sentence anyway and would love to communicate more and more with you (still excited you started a new thread!) and will do so tomorrow when my brain is operating, hopefully.

    Good night, dear Vesper!
    anita

    #105048
    Vesper
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    Good morning and I understand your last post completely. I too was getting bleary-eyed when I wrote that and hope I wasn’t rambling. I’m woke at 3am wondering if perhaps I shouldn’t have put some much detail in my post. I don’t really expect that anyone who knows me or Vegas Girl would be on here, but if they were they would certainly know who we are. Do you think I should edit it or leave it? Sorry to be such a worry wart. Even though this person made me sad, I feel it’s one thing to air my own laundry, but perhaps not so cool to air hers without her permission. By the way, she was being very nice to me again this morning. :-/

    • This reply was modified 8 years, 7 months ago by Vesper.
    #105050
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Vesper:

    Hugs back to you!

    Kindness with abusers is indeed seen as an opportunity to abuse. Fact of life. So detecting abuse is a an indicator to not offer yourself as a victim.

    There is more to why you are doubting yourself regarding the Vegas Fiend, why you would think of her as a Vegas Friend at this point, or think you overreacted.

    Your original post was very clear and very trustworthy. Your descriptions of what happened were clear and factual. She indeed was abusive, clearly so. So why do you doubt it…

    Here I am coming with a possibility: you grew up with a difficult, abusive person, maybe a parent, maybe an older/ bigger sibling. Maybe a very present-in-your life bully, a care taker in some significant capacity. At the time your need to feel safe was the most intense need you had. And yet, the person was dangerous to you. Being aware of this danger while you were powerless as a child, was unbearable. No one can endure such intense, ongoing fear. So you changed the way you viewed that person the best you can. You saw the person as a loving person, the best you could. Any smile, any good deed, you viewed as “He/ she is good after all” and so you felt relatively safe.

    And so, this viewing of people continue to this very day. If the person you associate with is not abusive, good for you. If the person is abusive and you see it, you abandon seeing it the moment the person smiles. Still motivated by the need to feel safe.

    And I did notice in the past, that you are very careful to not offend, very cautious, almost walking on egg shells. This supports my feel that you grew up with someone understandably perceived as dangerous to you.

    What do you think?

    anita

    #105051
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Vesper:

    Double post. I wrote to you the last post before reading yours (the first one you posted today). Of course, your latest post is motivated by fear of the Vegas Fiend, isn’t it? Soon to be away from the computer for a few hours.
    anita

    #105073
    Vesper
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    Your insight is quite amazing to me. It’s funny that I always think I’m maintaining a solid, confident veneer, yet the real me still shows through in ways that a perceptive person like yourself cannot help but see. I admire you for having this skill. It’s as mystical as a superpower to me. ☺

    I think I understand what you’re getting at and it’s been a long time since I even thought about it, but on reflection there may be something in my past that could be a factor. My father was a strict disciplinarian. He could be loving, but mostly he seemed stern. I can remember as a little girl running out to greet him when he came home from work and carrying his lunchbox into the house. We seemed like a happy average family, my father, mother, brother and myself, but I joke about him now when I tell people, “I believed my father could kill me and get away with it.” He was just a larger-than-life (6’4”) bully of a person, and I was afraid of him.

    To be clear, my father never beat me. He spanked us as children, but I only remember it being when we’d genuinely been “bad” – not because he was out of control. It was very ritualistic, if you could call it that. You know, he put us over his lap and smacked us with a belt, then sent us to our room. Once when I was seventeen I mouthed off to him and he slapped me across the face. That is the only time I can remember him giving me any “knee-jerk” discipline.

    However, he LOVED to yell, and when he did he shook the windows in the house. It seemed like he was always angry about something. I can remember sometimes hearing him whistle when he was in a good mood and how buoyant it would make me feel because dad wasn’t in a bad mood for a change!

    When I was 15 my father suffered a massive heart attack while at work one day. The damage to his heart was so extensive that he barely survived. He lived another 8 years after that, and those were the really dark years. He was permanently disabled, so his only entertainment in life was to sit and scrutinize us. I have to admit my brother got the brunt of my father’s boredom and displeasure. I can remember crying out of pity for him because he couldn’t seem to do anything right and he desperately wanted to please my dad, just once.

    I was dating age by this time and my dad scared anyone who dared to stop by for a visit. LOL He was thoughtless with his words. He often criticized me in ways that took my breath away. He said worse things to my brother. My mother rarely intervened on our behalf I’m not sure if this was out of a sense of self-preservation or a desire to show a united front with my father, but there were times I begged her to do something to stop my dad from picking on my brother.

    Here’s the strange thing: After all of this, I still wanted to believe my father was good deep down, and it was only his circumstances that made him mean. I was shrewd enough to see he was grossly unhappy, in ill health, unable to provide for his family, bored, and his own upbringing in poverty and ignorance probably gave him ZERO skills as a parent. I tried hard to repair our relationship and be the best daughter I could be.

    I met my future husband and got engaged while my father was still alive. My father actually liked my husband and when we announced our engagement my dad was genuinely happy. I had a few months where I saw my relationship with him turning a corner finally. He seemed less disappointed with me and began treating me like an adult. We had conversations that didn’t involve me being in trouble for doing something stupid, or him yelling.

    And then he died. He suffered another heart attack while we were all at work, and died alone. My father died a week before my brother’s wedding. We had his funeral and the following weekend my brother got married. The weekend after that I had to put my dog to sleep. We went from being a family of four (five with the dog) to just two in a matter of two weeks. And I think in my grief I conveniently forgot so many of the bad times and chose only to remember the good.

    It’s been 26 years since his death and I mostly only remember him fondly. Your questions to me here made me think about the bad times for the first time in years and, in truth, I feel bad even typing it out – as if saying it aloud (or putting it in writing) makes it real and I don’t want to believe it. So what say you to that? 😉

    #105088
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Vesper:

    I felt sad, reading this, very sad, for you and for your brother. Not for your father or for your mother.

    I understand, Vesper. I believe I understand the fond feelings, the lifetime attachment, the guilt in writing this. Like I wrote, no one more than a mistreated child is more invested in seeing the mistreating parent as good as can be.

    Of course your father mistreated/ abused you and your brother (yes, abused!) because he was unhappy, before and after his massive heart attack. Parents abuse their children not out of happiness and well being, but out of distress. This is the way it is. Children/ adult children get confused about this point, excusing the abusive parent: “Oh he/ she had a rough life, “oh, he was in ill health, “oh she had depression, a personality disorder, etc., etc. etc.

    As if- as if there are parents out there well and at peace who abuse. As if there is that other group of parents who abuse out of happiness.

    And then there is this confusion: “Oh these other parents drew blood and broke bones, or starved their children, so in comparison, MY parent was good. I have nothing to complain… Like I wrote to you before, a “little cruelty” can go a long, long way. In fact, there is no such thing as a little cruelty. The comparisons are after the fact, an intellectual exercise. When you were a child and your father screamed and criticized you so viciously, that hurt. You didn’t say to yourself: Oh, my hurt is not as bad as if he broke my bones. Actually, in comparison it doesn’t really hurt much.

    At the time, it hurt. And badly.

    And so, you are still afraid of bullies, like the Vegas Fiend. Still trying to placate her throughout the weekend. Like you did with your father. 26 years after his death and forever more, unless you heal.

    I have so much more to say, so many thoughts and feelings, experiences to share. I wish I could send it to you in one neat package. It is amazing, really.

    Post again, going for a walk. So glad you posted. I noticed you posted on other threads but my computer is so slow. Will read later.

    It is my wish that we continue to communicate. I hope so.

    anita

    #105094
    Vesper
    Participant

    Dear Anita.

    Thank you for your response and for giving me permission to acknowledge what I’ve denied for so long. I know that sounds silly, but I feel that’s what you did in your response. I can remember prepping my husband to meet my father for the first time. It was the only time I think I ever categorized my father as an abuser. It hurt even then to say it, but I felt I had to warn him what he was potentially getting in to.

    I have more of the story to share – the part wherein my mother ends up looking really bad – which is going to be even harder for me to write than the first part, but first I’d love to hear something about your own experiences.

    Hope your walk was refreshing. I too took one during lunch today and I feel better. Write when you can, no pressure. Have a wonderful night. 🙂

    #105153
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Vesper:

    I didn’t open your thread this morning until last because I have raw emotion here, in relating to you. I referred to your earlier as a “gentle soul”- and I see you as such, gentle. So somehow I feel more tenderly about you.

    Also: I read your posts on other threads of yesterday and liked them very much, especially the one about parenting. I avoid commenting on others’ replies to threads not started by me. At times I write: “I agree with..” or something positive about a reply, but I think it is better that I don’t comment at all on other replies. This is to explain to you personally, in case you were or could wonder, why I didn’t and won’t mention anything about your replies on other people’s threads

    I think it is a healthy thing for you to acknowledge that your father was indeed abusive. When we are blind about the reality of the past, we are also blind about the reality in the present. So when you see your father as abusive, you can also see the Vegas Fiend as abusive, maybe even before Vegas.

    If you acknowledge your fear and hurt living with your father, over time, that fear will diminish in your present life, and so you will be less and less afraid from present life bullies, like the Vegas Fiend.

    As far as my own experiences, I have been sharing a lot on the website but that would be hard to get to because of my massive postings here. I would like to know why you are asking and more specifically what you would like to know.

    As you know, such sharing can be painful. There is an exposure in it, a vulnerability. Is that how you feel?

    You may share about your mother and of course it is not going to make her look good. After all, she allowed this to happen to you and your brother.

    Do you need me to share about my experience so you can trust me to share more about yours?

    Hoping for your next post—

    anita

    #105171
    Vesper
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    I find myself almost at a loss for words – and that’s weird for me – as I normally just trust what’s in my heart and say it, sometimes in really awkward ways like: What you said to me made my heart feel puffy Anita! LOL

    Normally I would be afraid of wearing the label of “gentle soul”, as it has come to be known to me as a label of weakness when said by others, and yet you made it feel okay. Thank you! So often I hear it used in terms of ‘you need to change’ or ‘toughen up’ when in fact I consider myself actually a very strong person.

    But yes, I do fear. I can tell you that I’ve developed a chronic sense of perfectionism because I fear criticism so much that I just don’t ever put myself in a position where I need to be reprimanded. Luckily this is something that, just in the past few years, I’ve started letting go of a bit, but for a while it was exhausting. I feel I’m now able to say, “Hey, I dropped the ball. Sorry.” And move on. Well, sometimes I move on. LOL

    As for sharing the story of my mother, OMG yes, it is painful, and I’m not sure why it is so hard for me to tell the facts as they happened – after all I didn’t make them happen – these are HER actions. But I’ve always considered my mother a paragon of perfect motherhood. I patterned myself after her. I wanted to be just like her, and when she behaved out of character, I couldn’t assign the responsibility to her – much as I couldn’t with my father. I had to come up with a plausible reason why she did what she did – something out of her control.

    Of course, in the back of my brain I know the truth, but if I don’t say it I can go on pretending it isn’t real.

    And I go back and read what I just wrote and think, “these are the words of someone who is completely broken,” but I don’t feel broken. I smile every day. I have a great life. I do get down now and then, but when I do I always ask myself, “Who can I help? Instead of sitting here dwelling on my sorrows, there must be someone out there hurting more than me. Who can I help?” and I’ll text a friend to wish them a good day or take someone to lunch just to perk them up.

    Just last night I called my mother to check in on her and she told me how much she loves talking to me. How can you not WANT to hear that? How can you not be moved by that and want to forgive her for everything she did and let go of the past? How can you not say, “I’ve done bad things for which I would like to be forgiven. I’d like to have the chance to outrun my past. Why shouldn’t she?”

    So yes, in answer to your question, I completely agree with you that sharing can be painful, and I think, in just acknowledging that you’ve told me what I need to know about your past – at least for now. I think we understand each other. ☺

    More in a bit. I have a few work things I have to get done. I hope you’re having a wonderful Friday!!!

    #105173
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Vesper:

    I know you are having a good life: I remember your story, one of the first posts on the website. And your empathy for others is remarkable. A gentle soul is someone still empathetic, wanting to do good, caring not to hurt others, caring. Gentle, not fragile. Not weak.

    Till your next post, whenever, on whatever hour or day that is convenient for you, whenever you feel like it.

    Take good care of yourself:

    anita

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