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March 24, 2016 at 9:45 am #99997
AnonymousGuestDear Ravi:
Your mother has not been respecting your assertions to leave you alone and that is not right on her part. And it is hurtful to you (as well as hurtful to her own aim at encouraging you to study!)- hence, I referred to her and the grandmother as unreasonable.
What to do? Open the door to your room, stand facing her, look her in the eyes and say in a strong voice, strong, confident, clear voice: “I said, do not talk to me until I talk to you. Until then do NOT talk to me. Do you understand what I just said?”
Still standing in front of her, with your eyes looking into her eyes, strong and confident, see what happens in the next few seconds: if she says yes, and seems surprised, or withdrawing, it worked.
If she continues with a lecture as before, stop her ongoing talk, and with a strong, confident, a bit louder voice, say: “I don’t think you heard me. Now, hear me! I said, do not talk to me until I come to you and talk to you. Do you understand?
Wait, she withdraws- job well done. She re-starts her lecture, say: “I have a problem with you. If you don’t stop talking to me until I talk to you, I will do the opposite of what you say and i will NOT study. Do you understand? If you disrespect me and keep talking to me, I will NOT study. Do you understand?”
If … she keeps talking, close the door on her in the middle of her talking and write to me, will you?
As far as Jerry, remember you told me that she said that if her parents found out she was communicating with a boy online there will be terrible consequences, for her, I assume. Did you ask her what those consequences were? Do you know what they may be?
Those consequences to her are more powerful in deciding her behavior toward you than anything else.
anita
March 24, 2016 at 6:20 pm #100041
ravi_zimmerfanParticipantYes, closing the door after making myself clear is the only way to go because she doesn’t understand what I’m trying to say and just keeps repeating the same thing. I just want to practice being assertive now in the way you mentioned, and not let my temper get the better of me again.
Regarding Jerry, she said her parents will be afraid of what other people will think of them and disconnect her Internet connection for long if they find out about me. By “terrible” consequences, I didn’t mean violence and all in case it came across like that; they’re very good people, not like that. But during our recent interaction, she didn’t mention them, rather gave her own views about why she can’t accept these feelings of mine.
March 24, 2016 at 9:32 pm #100054AnonymousGuestDear Ravi:
When you close the door of your room, does she stop talking or does she keep talking to you through the door?
If she keeps talking to you through the door, re-read my suggestion about you opening the door and talking to her like I suggested.
As far as Jerry, I had a thought earlier, that if you practice asserting yourself with your mother and your grandmother, in a firm, strong voice etc., like I suggested… maybe you will have the courage one day to approach Jerry’s father (can you imagine?) introduce yourself to him, tell him you are interested in marrying his daughter, that you will be a good husband to her etc. I have no idea about the Indian tradition in these matters, but what if… that could be a good idea.
I was just thinking. Bed time for me…
anita
March 24, 2016 at 10:15 pm #100059ravi_zimmerfanParticipantShe often keeps talking through the door. Dad advises me to just keep quiet in that situation and usually she stops after five minutes or so. 😛 Of course these incidents are rare now. It happened yesterday because I hadn’t washed, eaten or done anything except lying locked up in my room, not studying at all. I will surely keep your advise in mind in case it happens again. But I was just sad to see that despite all my practice, my patience crumbled again due to depression and I lost my temper. If/when I am blessed to be with Jerry again, I do not wish this to happen again at any cost. I want to keep up the practice of assertiveness and being calm until I can finally weed out this inner ugliness and get victory over my negative qualities, for her.
I couldn’t help but smile reading your second paragraph. My immediate thought was a “NO!”… that’s due to my present lack of confidence. But if I make something out of my life and work on eliminating my negativity, and becoming a good and self-sufficient man… then yes, I could hopefully muster the courage to do it for her. But that is nothing but a mere fantasy as of now. The grim reality is that I hurt her, she is upset regarding my behaviour and feelings and not talking to me since nearly three weeks now. The very essential thing I’m praying for right now is being back on speaking terms with her first. And then, with my newfound determination to change myself, rebuild our relation/friendship. Everything else comes much later.
March 25, 2016 at 10:38 am #100082AnonymousGuestDear Ravi:
Your father, as you indicated yourself, is passive with the two strong, dominant, aggressive and unreasonable women in his life. Please do not follow his advice that you too be like him, passive and letting them run your life.
Regarding you losing your temper with your mother and grandmother, as long as you don’t do anything violent, illegal or clearly abusive with (anyone), it is perfectly okay and recommended (by me) that you do express anger toward them. Notice this: Jerry and others did not mistreat you when they defended the Veteran personality, but you got very angry with them as if they mistreated you. On the other hand, your mother and grandmother did mistreat you, so expressing your anger toward them is natural, understandable and justified.
Not all expressions of your anger are “inner ugliness”- only expressions of anger that are violent and clearly abusive. And only expressions of anger toward people who did not mistreat you. When you express your anger at people (who did and do mistreat you) by raising your voice some, by the tone of your voice, by your facial expressions becoming a certain way, etc., all that is only human, needed, useful, natural and must be.
From reading your last paragraph, I see that my idea was not completely unreasonable, about you approaching Jerry’s father (and you do have his address since you sent her gifts and you indicated you know where she/ he lives0
Good, I like it then. Notice this: re-read what I wrote on this very post. It is very important for your very goal of getting back with Jerry and materializing your love for her beyond online communication:
It is a worthy goal, to materialize your love for Jerry. Why not aim at it? No matter how far it seems now, what a fantasy it looks like now, why not aim at it?
Asserting yourself and taking charge of your life is most important, the most important thing you can do so to increase your chances of marrying Jerry (yes, marrying Jerry, why not aim at that?)
Please, in that aim, understand that your mother and grandmother, the two women who have mistreated you all these years in different ways, that they deserve your anger. If you deny this, you will not succeed in managing your anger.
Always remember: nothing violent and clearly abusive, but your anger is your salvation. It is not to be suffocated like a beast. Directed at the right people legally… and that is where your salvation is. Remember the valid messages behind emotions? The message behind your out of control anger with other people, is that you need to assert yourself against the two women who have been harming you all along.
Once you do that, well… we can talk later about you approaching her father. It can be done.
anita
March 25, 2016 at 7:08 pm #100090ravi_zimmerfanParticipantI agree Anita, that righteous anger is a natural emotion and can even be productive in some instances. After all, a significant number of achievements in the world have been done by people fueled by a kind of anger within. Not the destructive madness which I succumb to, but grim determination to overcome whatever obstacles lie between them and the goal which means more to them than anything else. I guess that’s a form of anger too. But then, so far I’m not able to direct my anger at selective places. My anger is like spraying a field with deadly insecticide… along with the harmful insects, the useful ones are killed as well and the crop is damaged. That’s the kind of destruction my anger is causing.
Just today morning, I had a dream that Jerry had messaged me, and the first thing I did after waking up was check my phone with foolish hopes. I wondered what I’ll feel if/when she does message me at last. To my surprise and aghast, apart from the feeling of elation and bliss I imagined, a small voice in some corner of my head also responded – “Reply her something like: finally remembered that I’m still alive, have you? What do you want now after ditching me for so long?” I just don’t understand what’s wrong with me. I fully understand Jerry’s emotions, I empathize with her and I’m ready to be humble and submissive towards whatever she says to me. I’m ready to unconditionally take responsibility for whatever happened, to blame her for nothing at all. Then why does this blasted voice crop up in my head, obscure everything else and force me to push the wrong buttons? It’s exactly what happened during our last fight. I was trying my best to be passive and gentle to her, and it was going well until she said something about my parents, this voice forcefully interpreted it as offensive and forced me to say all that toxic waste, calling me a coward. I just hate myself for it.
I actually do not have Jerry’s address. I never sent her gifts because whenever I asked to, she refused saying that she doesn’t want her parents to find out about our relation. Even gave a plethora of reasons trying to justify why sending gifts or meeting in person isn’t necessary to maintain a relation. Right now, I feel that the wish to marry her, while a noble goal, is very far-fetched. The reasons which immediately come to mind are –
* Most importantly, she has to accept my feelings first. I cannot force her to do anything against her wishes.
* She currently is extremely upset and angry with me, I don’t even know if she’ll ever talk to me again, or wish to be close again even if she talks. It’s the biggest factor.
*She’s still very young, studying and has a long way to go for her career and job. Everything else comes much later.
*The second biggest problem – I am 26 and currently not even in college, thanks to my family and my own folly. Under the best possible scenario, if I get into medical college this year, the course still takes a minimum of 5 years for undergrad. Postgrad is another 3 years, until I can get a job. And until then, there’s very little chance that her marriage will not be arranged, or she might love someone else.
* Even if the above problem is somehow worked out, I don’t know what to say if I do approach her parents. I can’t just say something like “Hi! I love your daughter and promise to treat her as a princess! May I pleeaasee marry her?” after all. On top of it, I have a lot of confidence issues.My mind currently is not even considering all this. In the night I was thinking, what if during these days, she approached someone to discuss our relationship, the way I’m discussing it with you? And what if that person examined everything and told her that I’m indeed an abusive and manipulative person and it’s best to just leave me and live happily? What if she decided that she’s indeed very much happier and relaxed ever since she stopped talking to me, and decides to keep it that way and never return? What if she finds someone else in my absence and forgets about me? I know it’s fantasizing but isn’t there at least some real possibility in it. It’s eating into my head day and night and killing me. 🙁
March 25, 2016 at 8:15 pm #100093AnonymousGuestDear Ravi:
It is possible for you, under the best case scenario, you wrote, to be a medical doctor at 34, is that so, MD is what you are aiming at?
You wrote that your anger is like spreading insecticides in a field killing the insects and the crops. I am not aware of you being adequately assertive with your mother and grandmother (the insects in your analogy).
I thought about you approaching Jerry’s father because if you in potential, get him on your side, that will open the door for you with Jerry because her father must have a lot of power in her mind and life (assuming her father is the dominant parent in her case). Not that he should pressure her to marry you but only, if he liked you, to make it okay for her to allow you and her to acknowledge loving feelings for each other beyond the sister/ brother concept.
This is a very theoretical image I have of a meeting you would have with her father (certain details not considered yet):
You: “My name is Ravi. I very much appreciate you agreeing to meet me and it is a great honor for me. I will get straight to the point: I love your daughter more than anything. I am willing to live and die for her. She is the light of my life. I am not yet worthy to ask for her hand in marriage. I am intending to make myself worthy to be her husband in any and every way.
I wanted to introduce myself to you so to make my intentions clear to you, as you are most esteemed and respected by your daughter. And if you have ten minutes now, or at any time of your choosing, I would very much like to talk with you, to ask for your advice about the best ways I can become worthy of your daughter.”
Then, if he agrees and give you more time then or at another time, you will tell him about the status of your education, how many years it would take… all the truth and nothing but the truth. Then you will tell him about your anger problem. You will ask his advice and guidance, listen respectfully… and follow through. Once in a while you meet with him to discuss your progress.
What do you think, Ravi? This is an imaginary scenario but a possibility, maybe. Such an approach can very much endear you to a father because of your honesty, and over time, if you do follow through and work hard, taking in his advice, and his guidance, he would feel invested in you and motivated to see his return on investment.
Yes, far fetched etc. And I am assuming her father is a reasonable, decent person, of course. I also like the idea of a reasonable wiser adult guiding you since unfortunately, you have no such adult in your home (which is why I already suggested you take charge, that of the four: mother, father, grandmother and you, it is YOU with best capabilities to make good choices for yourself).
Thoughts?
anita
March 25, 2016 at 8:54 pm #100095ravi_zimmerfanParticipantYa, MD it is. Though technically speaking, people do get married while doing postgrad so crossing undergrad is all that’s really vital. Because in our field a job is pretty much guaranteed after joining postgrad.
Regarding my anger, I did try to be assertive. But almost always they get on my nerves and my self-restraint cracks. Also, even if I manage to be assertive to them, I am just sick of this voice in my head I mentioned. Which tries to prod me to reply rudely to Jerry. If only that voice is eliminated, almost definitely I’ll be able to control my anger.
Your suggestion about talking to her dad has made me much thoughtful. I can see the logic and clear rationale behind it and I agree that in the ideal situation, it would surely work for the good of both of us. Unfortunately, there are a whole lot of factors in reality that serve as obstacles currently.
1. My sinking career. Nobody would ever even consider taking the words of someone in my condition seriously. This makes me all the more upset at my family because much of it is their fault, and mine too. 🙁
2. I really don’t know much about her dad at this point. Though from what little I know he’s definitely a very decent and good person, it’s not sufficient. She made it clear that she does not want them to find out about our relation. If I tell him, she could feel betrayed. What if after going home, he gets angry on her for keeping contact with me in secret and all kinds of chaos follows?
3. I don’t feel he’ll empathize with me if I reveal about the fights we had. Because those fights are seriously ugly. He’d only be indignant about me, a stranger from the Internet, ill-treating his daughter like this. I can imagine him telling me to stay away from her or they’ll call the police if they find me talking to her again.
4. I will have to go to her city to meet him and all, which is currently impossible for me as I’m dependent on parents for everything. For all I know, he might already have planned to get her married to some family friend’s son or whatever. I just have no idea. In such a case if I go forth, it’ll be futile. Maybe I should know the situation first, then think accordingly. I really am not sure.This doesn’t mean I’m not considering your idea. It is practical in the right circumstances and I’m really grateful for it, Anita. Just that these above points and possibly many more, need to be taken into account too. And as I keep stressing, she’s currently not talking to me at all and it’s unsure what’ll happen. At present at least, contacting her father is impossible for me. Praying that these dark times are resolved and I am on good terms with Jerry again, this is something that might be considered much later. But even then, my career issue is critical. That’s what everybody looks at in India and elsewhere. And currently, due to my depression, I’m not motivated to study at all.
March 25, 2016 at 9:25 pm #100100AnonymousGuestDear Ravi:
I can’t read your last post thoroughly tonight because it is bedtime for me. i will read it tomorrow and write to you then. When I developed my idea about meeting her father, it was an exercise on my part and I didn’t think you will take the idea and put it to practice tomorrow, next month or year. I too thought that you will have to explain how you got to fall in love with his daughter, it being it is not okay with him that she would meet a guy online (I referred to this point as one of the details that are yet to be worked on).
The purpose of this exercise is at the least to communicate to you that creative thinking is a good idea, looking for ways. There are ways to move forward for you and I want you to think outside the box..
Anyway, till tomorrow… ten hours or so, please calm yourself. Life can be good for you, it can! You are a good person, a loving and lovable young man. With an anger problem. But this problem can be resolved over time.
anita
March 26, 2016 at 2:00 am #100105ravi_zimmerfanParticipantThanks Anita. I know that thinking out of the box is the only way for any hope in this situation. There’s so much more before that, though. I don’t think anybody who sees those horrible messages I sent to Jerry can ever think I am a loving or lovable person, most definitely her family won’t think so. Neither do any virtues excuse me of what I did. I know it’s of no use living in the past… but unless Jerry returns to me and I give her ten times the happiness to make up for my behavior, my conscience will not stop stabbing me within. I keep thinking of how normally at this time, she used to send me those sweet “Hiii bro… did you have lunch? How are you? Come let’s talk on Facebook, see what I found…” messages and now my phone is lying silent as a grave, I was enough of a *censored* to unfriend her on Facebook without thinking and have deactivated my account as I can’t bear going there… I cannot hold back the tears thinking of my sweetie. I just wish to have her back and make up for my behaviour, be on talking terms at least. If I ever underestimate her love and her vitality in my heart again, may I be reminded of these cursed and infernal days before I allow my vile lips/fingers to utter/type a single harsh word.
I’m just trying to convince my heart somehow that it’s not over, that she’ll be back and in order to move forward, I need a good career and right now I need to study hard for my exams in May. But it’s proving too hard due to the depression and fear.
March 26, 2016 at 5:45 am #100108AnonymousInactiveRavi,
All of this sounds really un-healthy – Anger, betrayal, her still holding a grudge and being angry, not being able to let go of the past, not speaking to you, cutting off all contact, her family thinking you’re a bad person, her father threatening to call the police if you contact her or even go near her. I’m sorry if it were me, I’d hope to be with someone similar to her in the future but sadly not with HER anymore. Due to how much hate and anger that comes from her end, that’s just way too messy and it’s honestly not even fair to you either. It takes two people for the relationship to go sour, not 1. These kinds of negative behaviors towards you isn’t love in the purest form. Esther Lederer: “Hanging onto resentment is letting someone you despise live rent-free in your head.” She decided to let her family know how much she hated you, painted an ugly picture of you and the type of person that you are, I wouldn’t want to marry a woman who does that or marry a woman knowing her family only knows bad things she has told them about me and hates me for that matter, forget it! Yes, it’s going to hurt hun but do not let her or her family define who you are and your inner worth and most importantly steal your peace. People who believe that they know you better than you know yourself, are ignorant and not worth your time, energy and space in your daily thoughts.
Maybe some day she will tell them something different but I highly doubt it at this point. I may be slightly wrong and if I am then great and you two have all my personal blessings and positivity sent for a beautiful reunion/marriage. But unfortunately from her side, all of this energy is hate and negativity and I wouldn’t want myself surrounded by those kinds of people or their bad energy. The more I read your posts, the more it spells out that this girl isn’t meant for you, too much hatred and craziness. Especially when the police are being threatened to come after you, if you so much as even contact her. You can and will still always love her but it’s best to move on. Hold onto all the beautiful memories you two were able to share in the past, as those are the ones you will remember the most. In time you will heal and eventually move on.
Another beautiful love is meant for you in the very near future and you will marry and be happy, as long as you do the healthy thing and allow your heart to stay open by loving yourself and staying positive. You’ve learned something and so did she. You will always love her and if she decides to marry, than ultimately that was her choice and knowing the indian culture you’re not forced to marry nobody you don’t like, even if it is arranged, the woman or man, has a right to say “no”. Right now, take this time to focus on yourself and your healing the healthy way. Get a good nights sleep every night, stay around people who love you for moral support, eat right, get in touch with nature, bask in the sun, allow yourself to laugh and smile, shed a few tears when you need to as it’s a part of your healthy healing process. And also, stay positive.
You are a beautiful soul Ravi who deserves unconditional love, positivity and forgiveness. Not a life and a family full of hatred and negativity. Everything will be ok.
Sending you lots of love positivity and light your way, all the best. 🙂
M.
March 26, 2016 at 6:34 am #100110AnonymousGuestDear Ravi:
Regarding your angry thoughts about Jerry when thinking about her contacting you again. I wonder if this anger is fueled by the message you received from your grandmother and mother that if you have a conflict with another person, it is always the other person’s fault (except if the other person is your grandmother or mother). When the boy in school wanted his coin back, I think it was your grandmother who said something like she wished that boy will die with his coin. That is quite extreme. Her message in that comment is that it is a great sin to displease Ravi and the person who displeases Ravi deserves to die… And there were other examples you mentioned, with the same message: other people are your worst enemies if there is any displeasure or potential displeasure or loss on your part.. so these strong messages at a young age created this extreme anger. I think this is where it is coming from. If so, this kind of insight can start you on the path of healing from this insanity (these were insane teachings and messages from the two women). What do you think?
anita
March 26, 2016 at 6:48 am #100111ravi_zimmerfanParticipantNo no Anita, that isn’t correct. I’m sorry, I guess I expressed myself poorly. I did not mean to say that she told her family everything or that her father threatened to call the police. All that is merely guesswork from my side, what might happen if they find out. Her family is decent, sweet and wonderful and so is she. I mean anyone’s family will feel that I’m a bad and hurtful person if they see my bad words without knowing the entire context, that’s what I mean. She has nothing to do with this. Of course she did not tell anyone, not even our closest friends about how much I hurt her. In fact when asked, she always speaks highest praise for me, that’s what everyone said. They’re genuinely in admiration of the bond both of us share, they had very little idea of the fights we had until I confessed to a few of them. In fact even after this recent fight, she told nobody about the bad words I said to her, she only said that she’s upset due to the fact that she considered me a brother and I developed these feelings for her.
And most definitely she does not have any ill or resentful feelings towards me. In fact she has every right to, but she doesn’t. She always speaks well of me, still prays for my good health and studies, I know that. She never once brought up the issue of our past fights despite having every opportunity, always insisting that she knows I’m a good person and we should forget the past and focus on maintaining our bond. I know that cutting off contact after knowing my feelings is kind of an overreaction, but we should look from her perspective too. She’s always been a very shy and introverted girl who never liked interacting with boys, I was an exception as we slowly developed a very close bond and she felt I’ll always love her as an elder brother. Naturally she felt betrayed that the one boy she loved so much platonically, developed the very kind of feelings she dreads as she dislikes romantic relations and all in general. I empathize with her and I wish I had revealed my feelings more tactfully, instead of this disastrous manner.
I don’t want to sound dramatic, I know I’m inexperienced but I know I’ll never feel the way I do for her, for anyone else. She has my loyalty and my love forever, she’s the one I wish to be with from my heart. That still comes much later; first, I want to make up for hurting her and reunite with her at least as friends first.
Yes, I know these wrong teachings at my home of avoiding self-blame and criticism are what could be causing this problem. I dunno how to root it out now, though I am accepting my fault wherever I must.
March 26, 2016 at 6:57 am #100113AnonymousGuestDear Ravi:
I think you didn’t notice that the post you are referring to was not written by me. Please look again. I am very aware that her father does not even know about you. Go up the page and notice who wrote that post. The one after that post is mine.
anita
March 26, 2016 at 6:59 am #100114AnonymousInactiveNone of this is good. It is okay to cut people out of your life and to be angry for awhile/few months at them. But to continue to be angry, hold resentment after years have passed, is not normal or healthy for anyone. As, the only person you are hurting is yourself. I have no right to tell you how to feel, how to grieve, what to do, as I was not there. I can only give you my personal advice but what I do know, is that holding onto anger and hatred from the past isn’t a healthy way of life and or will fix anything. All it will do is continue to spin you into a world of un-happiness. I believe in you Ravi and I also believe that you have love in your heart and the power of positivity to over come any obstacle you put your mind and heart to.
This will be my last and final comment I am going to make on your topic, in regards to your relationship.
I am kindly and respectfully withdrawing from this conversation/topic.
Sending you lots of love positivity and light your way during this time.
M.
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