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October 12, 2017 at 1:24 am #172793MattParticipant
X,
Thank-you this has been super therapeutic on a number of different levels.
In one way I am able to focus on defining the challenges that pop up in my psyche, and at the same time sort of emotionally detach from them. It is a weird feeling to try to describe those emotions that carry so much angst, but when typing them out it feels like I step outside of the emotions and get a third person view of them. I see the entire situation very differently when I discuss them here, and kinda scary that it has forced me to question certain beliefs.
The other is that it is comforting to read about the lessons learned from other people. Hearing about the struggles that you had, the not so perfect relationships, the inner dialogues. Everyone has their struggles.
that one can’t really, in all honesty, swear to LOVE somebody. Feelings come and go
So I think this sums up how I will be trying to move forward in life. And I think it can also be bigger than Feelings come and go. You can’t swear to LOVE somebody because no one is guaranteed anything. For so long I have lived my life in the past and the future. If I learn to love myself, my wife, and my family with everything I have, RIGHT NOW. Than that is all I can ask of myself. I need to learn to let go of the fear/insecurities of what may happen tomorrow, and forget about what I have done or should have done in the past. That is the path that should free me from the angst. I fully understand that path is going to be difficult and that I have to allow myself to fall down every now and then.
if you don’t feel comfortable about talking about this to your partner, it is cheating (even if no physical act took place), if not – then it is not.
I totally agree with this statement, and will say that my wife and I have had some of the most amazing conversations about our relationship in the last three weeks, that we would have never had in the past. Open, honest conversations about some really tough situations.
I read that women shouldn’t be afraid of their men watching porn (unless it becomes highly addictive, they say it is an epidemics of sorts now around the world). Maybe the reason for that is the one that you are describing – that for you it passes quickly and you are back to loving your wife the same way.
Is there a double standard lurking there, I mean should I be afraid if my wife watches porn? Does it pass quickly for women that they can be back to loving their spouse the same way. I only ask these questions, not to justify behavior, but to try to get to the bottom of why I think certain ways. Through all of this, one thing is for sure, my ideas of sex/love/pleasure/safety/marriage/trust/communications have been turned upside down. Maybe not turned upside down so much as I am actually taking the time to truly define my thoughts on these subjects
I am not sure I understand what kind of “closeness” you mean? Especially, “while being in an intimate relationship”? And “without it being physical, ie. sex”? Are you asking about platonic love?
There are some to whom I am completely neutral. Those would be (or are) good male friends. No sexual feelings added, none whatsoever. Proof (at least in my eyes) that friendship between men and women, no matter what they say, is possible.
I think my question boiled down to….Could you be in an intimate relationship with a man, and also have a best friend who is a different man. Yeah maybe platonic love. On the surface of my thoughts, I would think there would be a conflict of interests with this. But who am I to tell another person, whether it be my wife/daughter/son, who they can and cant be friends with. If my best friend was female I would throw a fit if my wife ask me to stop talking to her. I know you should be best friends with your spouse, but does that mean that you can’t have more than one best friend. I have about 6 college buddies who I would call my best friends, they all provide me with something different, but I know how each one of them would act.
But again, it passed in a couple of hours, a couple of days at most. And my daydreaming hardly ever has sex in it, it is more about the physical touch, like hugging or cuddling or talking about something holding hands
That’s funny because my wife said something similar to this one day when we were talking about Jay. She said all she really wanted to do was make-out like she was 15 again. Whereas my male mind equates that to leading to other things, she was quite positive that it would end there, maybe a walk on the beach or just sitting in the car.
lso, I might have that thoughts, be a bit gloomy about it, but when I saw him, when I saw how he eagerly he was looking for my every gesture, how he was watching my every glance and every step, my mind simply refused to believe that a man behaving like this around me could be intimate with another woman. Have you ever seen a video of how in courtship the male bowerbird will dance to the female in an attempt to attract her? If you haven’t, do, because that was the exact impression I had when my ex was around me.
I just watched the video and I can say that I remember doing that for my wife, that is actually how we met. I was head over heels for her the minute I saw her when we were 18. I danced to some 90’s booty hip hop in front of her and her friends in our dorm parking lot. She says she remembers it so vividly. I was definitely a dork and probably made a fool of myself. You know I lost that feeling for a long time in our marriage. It is odd, and goes back to the feelings come and go statement, but I totally feel engaged in our relationship again.
Slowly I discovered that I didn’t need a man to be there to catch me if I fall
I think I need to write a whole post on this one and explore more of my feelings about needing someone there (my wife) to catch me if I fall. It will probably serve me best if I could get to a point where I don’t need her to catch me. The biggest thing for me would be to understand that I will be all right if no one catches me, but trust her when she tells me that she wants to be there to catch me. This is the first time dwelling on this, but I can feel like this is where a lot of my insecurities come from. My mom passed away when I was 26, she was 50, I wasn’t really that young, but I was on the cusp of my adult life starting and it hurt that she wasnt going to be there to provide me with the advice and tips that a mother gives you. I will try to explore this more in depth in a different response, could get way too long
Maybe, one of the astounding discoveries was that it is never about us, it is always about them. Love IS in the eye of the beholder. We get attracted to this person and not to that person, not because of what this or that person is, but because of what response, what reaction that person triggers in us. And that reaction is triggered (or not triggered) because of our problems, complexes, insecurities, etc. Of course, chemistry plays a part, too.
what I am reading is that Love expands and wanes as an individual changes. I think that Chemistry plays a huge role. Did you know that when a woman is on birth control, her pheromones change. Someone did a study on women who got involved with a man while they were taking birth control and what happened to there relationship once the woman stopped taking the birth control, there preference in men change.
My wife and I share a strong chemical attraction. Her smell, her presence, her look drives me crazy. I have a unique view of this because my wife and I took a very long break between when we first met and when we got married. We had absolutely no contact during that break but both of us say that none of the relationships we had during that time had anywhere close to the same physical/chemical attraction as we have together.
Back to your question, my soul-searching and reading for the past two years brought me to believing that there absolutely must be certain boundaries. And it is best to set them, to know what they are and to stick to them. But I am not sure I am a good counsellor on this one…
I hopefully can disagree with this point in one way, I agree that boundaries need to be set so that expectations can be made, but I also think there is room in any relationship where those boundaries can be re-evaluated. I feel like I am at that point right now in my life as well ass in my relationship. Those boundaries and expectation are evolving and I need to find what my new boundaries will be. And I thank you for helping me see both sides of these arguments and having these great discussions.
Wow that was a lot, haaaha…..My brain is tumbling and I probably wrote a lot of nonsense, but I will have to comeback and reread my response to see where I may have erred.
Until next time enjoy your day.
MattOctober 12, 2017 at 4:59 pm #172961AnonymousInactiveMatt,
Thank YOU in turn for devoting so much time to my musings. I even feel a bit of guilt since this post started as an attempt to help you, but now it kind of focuses on me. I hope not too much. And I do feel immense gratitude to you for reading my other post. It is very hard work indeed to try and translate oneself into the head of the other person in an attempt to see what s/he sees, to understand where s/he comes from and to do all that without judging. I notice that sometimes people would open up to me like that guy who had me mildly hooked on him for over a year did, so I guess I could be a good psychotherapist myself because of that and also because of my ability to usually be able to get to the root of the problem. But since I know how hard this job of putting oneself in the other person’s shoes is (I also like the Native American continuation – also to walk a mile in those moccassins), I have never had a desire to pursue it and so may be able to find the root of the problem, but don’t know the ways and the techniques to deal with it.
And even though nearly everything I poured out here had gone through my head several times, had been written in my diary of sorts and shared partially with two or three people, it is still very comforting to take it out in the open again, all in the same place AND also to be aware of the fact that somebody, even though I don’t know you who you are, actually read it and heard it. I don’t know why, but the mere fact of it is very comforting. And it goes without saying that your input from a male perspective is simply invaluable. And I also value that you are not trying to judge me or to suggest I had my head examined, but are putting forward some things that I haven’t thought about (I am referring to that other, original, post of mine) or suggesting other, additional points of view or angles that I haven’t considered.
Everything you wrote makes sense to me, and I do already have some comments and ideas I would like to share with you and see what you will say. I don’t think they will be as lengthy as the ones in my post from the day before, but I won’t have time to do it now. I count on being able to do it tomorrow.
You also said that you would have to reread your response. Maybe you will have some afterthoughts or gobacks to share – I will be more than happy to read them as well.
Have a great evening!
X
October 12, 2017 at 8:12 pm #172969MattParticipantAnd even though nearly everything I poured out here had gone through my head several times, had been written in my diary of sorts and shared partially with two or three people, it is still very comforting to take it out in the open again, all in the same place AND also to be aware of the fact that somebody, even though I don’t know you who you are, actually read it and heard it. I don’t know why, but the mere fact of it is very comforting. And it goes without saying that your input from a male perspective is simply invaluable. And I also value that you are not trying to judge me or to suggest I had my head examined, but are putting forward some things that I haven’t thought about (I am referring to that other, original, post of mine) or suggesting other, additional points of view or angles that I haven’t considered.
It is akin to shining a flashlight into the deepest darkest places of our heart/brains. That place where the ego lurks. The monster that comes out to save our feelings. I am in search of making those hiding places smaller and smaller. Keeping a hold of my ego, but not giving it so much power over me.Understanding that the ego is necessary, but that I will be in control over it and not the other way around. You know if my wife decides to sleep with another man, I can’t change that. I know I am a good husband, I am a good father, and I am a good person. What she chooses to do does not change any of those things. Do I hope she chooses us, of course. But my wife is lost right now, and I want nothing more than for her to find herself, for the sake of her, and our children. I will survive what happens and will continue to be a good father, I hope that our marriage can survive, but I am no longer going to allow myself to dwell on the what if’s. I make a pact with myself that I will try my best to be the best person that I can be, and to support her in her journey. Whatever path we choose there are going to be roadblocks and bumps, but we will deal with them as they come. And hopefully come out of the other side better people.
Matt
October 12, 2017 at 9:56 pm #172977MattParticipantSo back to that question. Even if the two didn’t change, one (or both) could become bored. If not – well, maybe that is that rare case of pairs celebrating their gold or emerald etc. marriages. Most often, though, throughout the course of one’s life, a person changes. If the other stays the same, then the question is how that first person’s change is compatible (and that goes both ways) with the other person? Both partners may change, then again, the question is how compatible they become now with each other’s changed self? Sometimes still compatible, sometimes not. Then their paths would diverge. I visualise that as two lines that have been interwoven, but now either run parallel to each other or one (or both of them) goes into a different direction. Sometimes people meet again and rekindle their romance; that would be shown as an intersection and the interweaving begun anew. That is how I now see it in my mind’s eye, a relationship between two people, and not just lovers, but also friends, good acquaintances, etc.
Okay, so here is a question, what do you think makes up a soulmate? I think that my wife and I are linked for whatever reason. She is my soulmate, during our 13 year hiatus when we had zero contact, she always had a place in my subconscious. She was the bar that every other woman I met/dated had to live up to. I none of those individuals even came close to making me feel the same as my wife. Sure there were some who had I had intense physical connection with, and some who I had great social chemistry with. But like my wife and I talk about we just fit, She is the key to my lock, and I ultimately believe that she can help me become the best version of myself. She tells me that I do the same for her, and I really believe her.
So here is the conundrum that I face, together her and I have fought many different obstacles, and this new one is just that. Another obstacle. The question that I ask myself, and not lightly, is am I willing to throw that connection away because she wants to explore her sexuality with another man. This is such a difficult question with so many layers. I know that you have said you would not be willing to share, and I would like to explore the reasons why in hopes of gaining a different perspective.
I have conflicting thoughts running through my head. What if by exploring the feelings that she has, increases the happiness in our relationship by 10. That would be beneficial to both of us. I know that there is also a risk that it could actually destroy our relationship. So my question is in what ways could our marriage be ruined by this?
Perspective, I enjoy taking pictures, It pleases me to take my camera out on a 4 hour hike in nature and just get lost. When I get home from one of these hikes, I have reduced my stress, re-centered my outlook on life, and am a much happier person.
What is the difference in the pleasure that I receive from my hike, and the pleasure one would receive from another person. If everything is out in the open and there is no deception and the trust is not being broken, Is there really a difference. (this also assumes that the physical/intimate relationship that my wife and I have isn’t affected, which is another one of the risks)
Just a few questions to try to narrow down some of these things that I am trying to address.
I hope you had a great evening, take care
Matt
- This reply was modified 7 years, 2 months ago by Matt.
October 13, 2017 at 8:33 pm #173091AnonymousInactiveHm-m-m, I am not sure it is about the ego. Or maybe I don’t quite see what you mean here. I remember that after the devastation that my breakup with #1 wrought on me, I talked about it to maybe from 7 to 10 people altogether over the course of three months or so. I think at a certain point my whole being just gets tired being stuck on the same thing, kind of gets bored of recounting and rehashing the same story over and over. And it stops. I suspect that this writing here, on this site, would be my last episode of processing that. It is also logical to an extent because about two months ago I stopped having that guy on my mind all the time, the one I had had for over a year.
What she chooses to do does not change any of those things.
Yes! That is very important! You are who you are, and you are not defined by what others do to you. You do what you need to do and leave the rest to fate, life, destiny, God, what- or whomever, to the natural flow of events.
It is terribly hard for somebody like me to let go, but I fully agree with those quotes and blogs that mention that letting go also brings on a feeling of being at peace. You let life in.
what do you think makes up a soulmate?
I am afraid I stopped believing in soulmates after #3. You know, I sort of kept putting off and off this moment, first agreeing that okay, maybe #1 or #2 weren’t my soulmate, but I never had intercourse with them. But after #3, after that intense chemistry, so many things in common (like attracts like, and I can see where certain features or beliefs of mine could correspond to his, that is why I, the way I was then, could attract somebody like him), after the love we shared, all those experiences together, that much time together as a couple, after all that became nothing, a folder on my computer that I have absolutely no desire to open, a sealed envelope with my analyses of the situations and lists and several photos (well, he helped me tremendously assembling furniture and setting my up when I moved in my current location, but since he doesn’t care about it any more, I had a moral right not to think about it and to release it all; also, one’s eye gets used to what one sees every day), I can only believe in that the world is ruled by chance and there are only coincidences. Like they say in physics (and nobody really seems to understand how this may be so, but it seems to be so), nature tries to achieve entropy, chaos, not the state of perfect order and regularity and consistency.
That’s my take on it now. In other words, we indeed can have many soulmates, depending on what stage in life (and in our personal development) we are at.
She tells me that I do the same for her, and I really believe her.
This is very encouraging! But I don’t see how an open marriage can help you to achieve a better state of being if the idea of it is not appealing to you (more below). Besides (sorry, and I am very well aware that your wife is not my ex) people say things that they don’t believe, people say things that they believe in while they are saying them, people’s stances and opinions change, etc.
Matt, when I mentioned to that male acquaintance of mine whose criterion of finding a woman attractive or not was a look at a “family photo” from afar, that my ex may very well come back to me, he was very expressive and flat. “Once cheated, that’s the end of it.” Turned out his wife had cheated on him; he is now married for the second time and says that is much much happier than he was before or could ever imagine to be.
In fact, I am surprised that you are so open to the idea of an open marriage. I was under the impression that men are far more possessive than women.
You know, it hit me on the head yesterday what you were trying to do with this open marriage thing. You were trying to do exactly what I was trying to do with the idea of being my #2’s and #3’s mistress – what does it matter if they don’t sleep with their wives, if their marriages are only on paper? Especially, if the wife knows about me (like with #3)? I am not after their fortune, I don’t care about appearing in society or at work with them, I only want to be the one who is on their minds and whom they care about more than anything. Turned out it was impossible.
The same was when I got this, this and that pointing at (as my gut would tell me) that my ex’s interest in me was on the wane.
I tried to logically talk myself into that this is not it, brought up examples when I felt it was A, but in reality it was B, remembered all those articles that read that passions could not always run high, that feelings wax and wane, that I need to give him more freedom, etc.
Turned out my gut was right. Actually, my most recent guy told me as well that he believed one should go with the intuition.
AND, Matt, this was exactly anita’s point on that other thread of mine. That I should trust my emotions (logic and reason make up only half of a human being; we are not machines or computers) and that I should stop paying that much attention to details and go with the overall, general impression, the big picture.
I believe that is exactly what you are trying to do. You don’t like the idea on your basic, instinctive level, but you are trying to talk yourself into, thinking “But if I look at it from this angle? Or from this one? And if I stand on my head?…” However, what you are examining doesn’t change from the way you are looking at it, nor does your attitude, that deeper, basic, instinctive attitude.
You might think my example is not very appropriate, but here it is. I can’t stand spinach. That is, if it is spinach in greens, fine, if it is spinach pasta, great, but I can’t stand canned spinach. I get a gag reflex at the slightest smell of it. Well, I know that spinach is super healthy (as for the open marriage, it is not so unequivocal), so I am trying myself to talk into eating it. I pinch my nose, I try to concentrate on all of the taste receptors in my mouth, but no matter what I do, when the fork is one inch away from my mouth, I gag.
I think you are trying to do the very same thing.
Well, with spinach, I can get the same vitamins and minerals elsewhere.
With your wife, it is different. You are not trying to convince yourself to love your wife, you are trying to convince yourself to love what your wife loves (let’s put it this way).
The difference from the pleasure received from the hike is that your wife doesn’t mind that you are hiking (I should think she doesn’t, but if, for instance, you were drinking or if you were a drug-addict?) whereas you don’t instinctively like the idea that she receives pleasure from another person.
I think you need to explore more that feeling of what you are afraid of and what would happen if you don’t do it.
Again, I think the key thing here is what YOU are FEELING when you think of her and that other man.
Another prospective. She (or another woman in her place) may think that you are a door mat if you agreed to share her with somebody.
What if this was a test?
You never know what result the other person expects.
Better be yourself.
My first, bigger post is awaiting moderation. The other day it happened, it took about 10 or 12 hours for the post to appear.
Have a great Friday night and a really good weekend!
X
October 13, 2017 at 8:42 pm #173089AnonymousInactiveMatt,
“For so long I have lived my life in the past and the future. If I learn to love myself, my wife, and my family with everything I have, RIGHT NOW. Than that is all I can ask of myself. I need to learn to let go of the fear/insecurities of what may happen tomorrow, and forget about what I have done or should have done in the past. That is the path that should free me from the angst. I fully understand that path is going to be difficult and that I have to allow myself to fall down every now and then.”
“Learn to love” sounds almost impossible to me. Granted, I read that babies actually learn compassion and pity, maybe even love. Or do they learn how to express the love that they feel? More than that, everything concerning the “love” of a particular individual, to my mind, is similar to any other emotion felt by that particular individual. Let me explain.
Several years ago I came across one article that made me think about it and think about it and think about it. The article read that all of us, every single person on this planet, is inherently, endlessly, incurably lonely. Lonely not only because of the unique genetic composition of each one of us, but also lonely (and this piece would include identical twins) because of the unique circumstances, events, occurrences in every individual’s life and his or her response to them.
So, say, when I say to somebody who has been left by a boyfriend, “I understand your pain, I’ve been there,” it is only half-truth. My pain, what I felt, was the result of my previous experiences, reactions, thoughts, chemical imbalances and whatnot. Hers would be different.
So that was regarding “love” as a notion. Everyone says “I love you,” but everyone has different things in mind (I am not talking about players and such here). For somebody, it may mean “I want to be with you forever,” and for somebody (mostly men, as psychologists tell me), it means “I love you here and now [can’t tell what will be tomorrow]”
As for learning to love, I still stick to my original thought that it is impossible to make somebody (even oneself!) feel emotions.
Given that firm conviction of mine, I can tell you that the only thing that I reproach my ex (besides the way he broke off with me – and that despite our previous agreements on how we should proceed should we or one of us fall out of love with each other or the other) is not that he stopped loving me. It is that for one, he was not paying attention to his feelings (and he told me that he always tried to find out why he didn’t like somebody – so I naturally thought that he was the type who pays attention to his feelings (my mistake)) to notice that they were on the wane, and, as an extension of that one, that he didn’t undertake any measures to revive the flame (and there are some). I am not sure those measures would have helped EVEN IF he were the type who does not believe that “love would do anything by itself, if it is true love. “ (Wrong, wrong, wrong!) But he was not. And I just couldn’t be angry with him when I saw how sincerely in love he was with that new woman. It was all very sincere, like in a two-year old child or a dog.
I have lived my life in the past and the future
I thought that this pertained mostly to women. I thought that men were more child-like (or animal-like – no offence intended) in this respect, their brains being naturally wired to live in the present moment.
You know, there was quite a long time in my life when I tried to live anticipating the worst. The idea was that if I expect the worst, then any other result will be a welcomed one. Well, several years ago I realised this was not the way to live my life. One expects the worst, one thinks about the worst, the worst happens, one has spent all that time in a bad mood. If one expects the best, but the worst happens, at least one didn’t spend that time worrying and sulking and fretting. BUT the shattering of expectations can be devastating. So I realised that the way to go was to expect NOTHING. Super difficult, but it falls completely in line with keeping one’s mind open.
My ex opened up the door of living in the moment and enjoying things here and now for me. Not that I didn’t do it before, but before it had been kind of tied to a particular location (the country side cottage where I would spend my summer vacations). At the same time, the fact that we were in an LDR contributed to my continuing to live looking into the future. As a student, I would look forward to vacations, as somebody in love with him, I would be looking forward to his arrival. Well, last year, I finally decided that my life was actually nearly everything I had ever dreamt of. Granted, I don’t have a chateau in France, but I have a nice home; I don’t have a Porsche, but the car I drive takes me from A to B with no issues, etc. I can pursue my hobbies, I can eat out, I can travel, I get enough free time for that, etc. And I decided that I would be living my life as if I were on vacation; finally, I didn’t really have anything to look forward to, I had everything there and then.
I mean should I be afraid if my wife watches porn? Does it pass quickly for women that they can be back to loving their spouse the same way.
Honestly, I don’t know about women in general. Maybe you can google what psychologists say (but not only psychologists’ opinions may differ, how they gather the information may affect the results).
And I have never watched porn, so I have no idea. I am far from being asexual, but there are some things I am simply not interested in. Sorry, can’t provide any insight here 😉 When I watched some scenes, like the ones in Basic Instinct, I simply got slightly aroused without any thought about any particular man. Besides, I don’t find and never have found male actors whom the majority of women is crazy about (Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise) particularly attractive, so there is a big chance that porn male actors will leave me indifferent.
Could you be in an intimate relationship with a man, and also have a best friend who is a different man. Yeah maybe platonic love. On the surface of my thoughts, I would think there would be a conflict of interests with this. But who am I to tell another person, whether it be my wife/daughter/son, who they can and cant be friends with. If my best friend was female I would throw a fit if my wife ask me to stop talking to her. I know you should be best friends with your spouse, but does that mean that you can’t have more than one best friend. I have about 6 college buddies who I would call my best friends, they all provide me with something different, but I know how each one of them would act.
Hm-m-m. For one, the practising psychologists whose books I have read and whom I trust (even though, as I said in the other thread of mine, I did find a few contradictions) are positive that sooner or later the “basic instinct” will surface.
On the other hand, I have one good male friend in my life and our relationship is completely asexual. And there are men to whom I am completely neutral sexually. But there are two but-s. The one is that the men to whom I am completely neutral are not really “best friends.” They are very good acquaintances and co-workers, but not even “friends” in the proper meaning of this word. And the other one is that even with that good male friend there was once an instance when I felt some sort of a spark towards him. It lasted only for five minutes or so, was extinguished with no effort at all, but it was there. And I suspect that during my most recent visit to his place, he felt something, too. But it is really tiny and nothing will ever come out of it.
Maybe, the key here is to have several “best friends”? My best friends (girlfriends) are somehow “covering” different aspects of my life, meaning that when we talk, I talk about different things with either one of them.
I was of that opinion for a long time that one must be one’s partner’s best friend and do everything together. Some pairs claim that that is how it is. But on the other hand, one can hardly expect one’s partner to be one’s twin in terms of interests, abilities, talents, etc. Besides, it is akin to those searches when you are offered a book or a film based on your previous selections. If you go with it, you will be getting only, say, romantic comedies, and you will never know that there are some really good thrillers around.
If my best friend was female I would throw a fit if my wife ask me to stop talking to her.
Well, my ex had one best friend who was female. By the way, no best male friends, only one guy from college with who he sort of got reconnected later. I later learnt that that was one of the characteristics of a narcissist. A female best friend (who also was his ex having refused to divorce her husband and marry him and who (soap opera at its best!) was also the best friend of his wife #3 – that is how they had got acquainted), no male friends, AND a few women with whom he enjoyed talking (but would claim that he was not attracted to them sexually) – that was subconsciously being done a) to prove to oneself that he has options and is still popular with the opposite sex and b) to let the partner know that she is replaceable. Also subconsciously.
That’s funny because my wife said something similar to this one day when we were talking about Jay. She said all she really wanted to do was make-out like she was 15 again. Whereas my male mind equates that to leading to other things, she was quite positive that it would end there, maybe a walk on the beach or just sitting in the car.
I don’t quite understand how that correlates with your post from yesterday: “You know if my wife decides to sleep with another man”…?
The biggest thing for me would be to understand that I will be all right if no one catches me,
Some understandings come with time. As if Step 1 – your mind needs to become aware of it, Step 2 (happening without your active participation) – your body takes it on, soaks in it, processes and then one day you are there all of a sudden.
It happened like that to me with the idea that one must be happy, that one’s cup must first be full to be able to help others and to make others happy. I was still expecting somebody to come along and make me happy (and growing desperate that I was already 24 and had never had a two-sided relationship with a man with whom I would be in love and who would be in love with me; this rush didn’t do me good, as you know). Next I saw the validity of that statement (about one making ONEself happy first), but my whole being still couldn’t take it on. And then, I don’t know how, but that understanding became accepted as a truth. I could probably compare it to the process of falling asleep – you are not asleep yet, and then suddenly you already are.
Right now I am sort of stuck in this way on that idea that one must be whole and complete to be in a happy relationship. It has been a while already, but I think it is finally “sinking in,” my logic and reason having agreed with it a lo-o-ong time ago.
what I am reading is that Love expands and wanes as an individual changes. I think that Chemistry plays a huge role. Did you know that when a woman is on birth control, her pheromones change. Someone did a study on women who got involved with a man while they were taking birth control and what happened to there relationship once the woman stopped taking the birth control, there preference in men change.
Do you mean love in general (as the ability to give love, that is why you capitalized it) or the love that one feels for somebody in particular?
I didn’t know about that study, but I did read that women have preferences for different types of men depending on when where ovulation is (I think it is more brutal features around and during ovulation and guys with feminine features at other times (or the other way around)). I also read that men would find the scent of women (they were given T-shirts to smell) who were having ovulation more attractive than that of women at other stages of their cycle.
My wife and I share a strong chemical attraction. Her smell, her presence, her look drives me crazy. I have a unique view of this because my wife and I took a very long break between when we first met and when we got married. We had absolutely no contact during that break but both of us say that none of the relationships we had during that time had anywhere close to the same physical/chemical attraction as we have together.
First, I need to share with you the following page from the Tiny Buddha blog: https://tinybuddha.com/blog/strong-chemistry-doesnt-always-lead-strong-relationship/
I read a similar thing in Evan Marckatz’s blog. If I paste the link in, this website says that my message is a spam, so I suggest you just google “How long should I wait for chemistry to develop” and Evan’s name.
Second, my personal experience. The scent of my ex would drive me crazy. Him even more (he kept saying it all the time, and I don’t use tons of perfume). But it never prevented him from falling for another woman and enjoying her scent, too. But that’s my ex.
A year after my breakup with my ex, he and I were sitting together in his car (nothing personal, only work), and I felt that familiar pang in my chest. At the same time, there was a pause in our conversation, and I thought that he felt it, too. He didn’t say anything though.
One digression. I once openly discussed that similar “pang” with one man to whom I felt that incredible pull, like iron to magnet, and who was absolutely not a match on any other level. He said that he was feeling it, too. Next, I had a few interactions with my #2 after I had left him for my ex. I felt it too several times (not as acute as when I was in love with him, but still). I voiced it. He didn’t deny that he wasn’t feeling it at the same time.
I guess my point is that that is the result of the basic instinct of procreation in action. The question is whether the other party is aware enough of his or her emotions to acknowledge it or not.
So personally, I wouldn’t look too much into it.
To me, it is on par with “signs” as I call them. There was a period when I was missing this most recent guy, and I would see his name everywhere – movie subtitles, some Power Point presentations, for some reason his name would be mentioned at work, etc. I would see a rainbow when thinking about him, etc. And then it stopped. And nothing happened. It was most likely all coincidences amplified by my thinking about him all the time. So naturally, whatever happening having any relationship to him would be happening when I was thinking about him.
I hopefully can disagree with this point in one way, I agree that boundaries need to be set so that expectations can be made, but I also think there is room in any relationship where those boundaries can be re-evaluated.
In one of my answers to Jeff in July I wrote on the subject. Here it is:
General antagonisms would be being stubborn vs being persistent and being a coward vs being careful. This is just to give an idea what pairs or antagonisms I mean.
As for relationships, I still have no answer to
- a) how to tell if a man/woman is coming strong, when it is a good sign (“really into you”) and when it is a bad one (such “love”may burn out quickly or, worse yet, one may be dealing with a narcissist)?
Similarly, when one is taking time, does it mean that one wants to learn the other person better, not rushing things (good?) or maybe s/he is simply not interested?
- b) when one behaves in an understanding way vs when one is simply being a doormat and is being used for that
- c) on the one hand, they say it is good to have values and principles, but on the other, they say that the one whose ideas are “set in stone”, is plainly not flexible, not learning, thus it is not good
I have a few more now, but those were the major ones.
I still don’t know.
Maybe this will be the next thing for my “being” to process…
I will be back to share my thoughts on your latest two posts in an hour or two.
But here is my question to you (just wondering, and I know that you are not any man, a man from a statistical report, so it won’t apply to ALL men out there). I have read in a few different sources that men are very unlikely to do this type of soul-searching that you are doing. I read that for some men this can even be akin to being mentally raped (sorry for such a strong comparison, but it is not mine). I wonder if you are really comfortable exploring (I am not talking about what you discover as a result, I am talking about the process) your feelings, maybe suppressed emotions, underlying reasons, etc?
“Talk” to you soon,
X
October 13, 2017 at 10:24 pm #173097MattParticipantX
I will start first with the idea of exploring these emotions. This process is surely new to me, I have lived my life burying my emotions and feelings. Most of my life has gone by with an emotional flat line. There were up and down spikes here and there but looking inside and expressing those feelings/emotions was not something that I did. So why now, I don’t know exactly other than it feels like the thing I need to do. It is extremely uncomfortable, but quite freeing. Kinda like that flashlight idea, the more I shine that light around these areas that I have been hiding, the more I realize that I have been lying to myself, hiding things from myself, or not really living life to the fullest. And I like that notion of living life outside your comfort zone. I have felt more alive over the last couple of months than I have in awhile. Even though it has caused some hurt and misery. I like the idea of spending more time exploring who I really am. (As a side note, I am also in the midst of trying to figure out my next career move, it is definitely another topic, but also worth noting.)
That’s my take on it now. In other words, we indeed can have many soulmates, depending on what stage in life (and in our personal development) we are at.
Okay, I can accept that, I can see how people can come and go into your life and affect you in tremendous ways. But doesn’t that thought just point to the fact that maybe the ideal of marriage actually hampers our growths as individuals.
people say things that they don’t believe, people say things that they believe in while they are saying them, people’s stances and opinions change, etc.
This thought has crossed my mind many times, It is the one that haunts me the most because how can you ever know what motivates people to say things. I have to accept the fact that my wife may just be telling me things so as not to hurt my feelings. Or that if she did act on her feelings with Jay that it would end up changing her view on our marriage. I think that is a valid point, and a risk. My wife and I have discussed this risk and it is one that there really isn’t anyway to protect from.
In fact, I am surprised that you are so open to the idea of an open marriage. I was under the impression that men are far more possessive than women.
The more you write about men, the more I think I may not be a man after all..HAHA One of the most attractive qualities I find in women is an Independent streak. Someone that isn’t afraid to go get something she wants. Now I am still a gentleman, open doors, yes maam, gush over my wife, but I don’t feel the need to be a controller. I think this is why when I started this post it was all about trying to get to the bottom of the jealousy that I was feeling. Maybe I always just suppressed the jealousy, but I don’t think that is the case. This is new, it has never been around in previous relationships.
Turned out my gut was right. Actually, my most recent guy told me as well that he believed one should go with the intuition.
The funny thing is that I am not sure that my gut is telling me that the idea of an open marriage/relationship is wrong. You know that is probably why I am willing to explore all of this. I know that initially the jealousy was sickening., but I don’t necessarily think that the jealousy is tied to the act of her being intimate with someone else. It feels like a knotted up ball of yarn. The more I pull the string the tighter the knot gets, but if I take my time and slowly follow the string and see that I am able to make more sense of things.
The spinach example makes a lot of sense, but to counter that over the course of time you can change your pallete. I hated mushrooms growing up, just the thought of biting into one made me gag. But I was out to dinner one night on a date at an Italian restaurant and my date ordered some type of veal with a mushroom sauce. She offered me a taste of her dinner, and for some reason I didnt say “no, I hate mushrooms”, I took the bite, and it was AMAZING, and now I absolutely love mushrooms. I guess my point to all of this is that in for us order to find out what (or who)you truly love we have to push ourselves, take ourselves out of our comfort zone.
With your wife, it is different. You are not trying to convince yourself to love your wife, you are trying to convince yourself to love what your wife loves (let’s put it this way).
Not sure about this one because she loves a lot of things that I never want to love, like purses, shoes, Stephen Colbert and Jon Oliver. I appreciate that there are things she does that I have no interest in, and that there are things that I love that she has no interest in. I think it is one of the ways that people stay together longer, because you have interests outside of your partner. Not always the case but I think there is truth in it
Another prospective. She (or another woman in her place) may think that you are a door mat if you agreed to share her with somebody.
What if this was a test?
I have thought about this one as well, and have talked to her about it, she is not trying to test me, she is curious about exploring more of her own sexuality, and of our sexuality together. But it is important to note that I have been told in the past by friends that I sometimes come across as being a pushover, giving in too easily. I stand up for the most important things in my life, but why waste energy on small things.
I will have to continue later, need to get some things done.
Have a great weekend,
Matt
October 14, 2017 at 6:16 pm #173175AnonymousInactiveMatt,
And I like that notion of living life outside your comfort zone. I have felt more alive over the last couple of months than I have in awhile. Even though it has caused some hurt and misery. I like the idea of spending more time exploring who I really am. (As a side note, I am also in the midst of trying to figure out my next career move, it is definitely another topic, but also worth noting.) and I have thought about this one as well, and have talked to her about it, she is not trying to test me, she is curious about exploring more of her own sexuality, and of our sexuality together and I don’t necessarily think that the jealousy is tied to the act of her being intimate with someone else and now I absolutely love mushrooms.
I don’t think I can say much to this one. Maybe your wife is experiencing a mid-life crisis, you got an initial shock at her suggestion, which, in turn, triggered your mid-life crisis. Now you are a couple agreeing on exploring new things. Why not? Everything that you wrote in that last post of mine suggests that you are open to this new experience. It doesn’t seem like you are hurting anybody, so I’d say go ahead and try it!
I don’t really think your wife is testing you. I brought that as an idea that maybe there is something else that you don’t know and something that she is not yet aware of on the conscious level. Not everything is always what it seems. But sometimes it is. Time will tell.
One more side note. That guy who had been cheated on his wife was very vocal about taking one’s partner back – “You really want him back after he has been all pawed over by another woman?” I visualised it and felt aversion. Still can’t shake that feeling off.
You brought that mushroom example, well, it makes one think that feelings may change with time. How soon might they change here regarding open marriage?
You seem to be really warming up to the idea, what is stopping you from having an open marriage now?
But doesn’t that thought just point to the fact that maybe the ideal of marriage actually hampers our growths as individuals.
Well, this is one of my contradictions. You know, I never ever dreamt of a wedding, white dress and all that (well, I wouldn’t mind if I were to marry a prince, a real prince, but since it is extremely unlikely that I will ever be marrying one and none of my crushes was a prince, I thought that all those paraphernalia would out of place. I didn’t really play with dolls either, growing up more like a tomboy).
Moreover, the fact that modern society allows divorce, and one can be divorced in no time rendered the idea of marriage completely useless in my eyes.
On the other hand, I am hopelessly romantic and, as I discovered, was looking for safety and security – and still like this idea of being safe and secure – and what best conveys the idea of safety and security than lifelong bliss with the man you love and who loves you? Of course, the state of happiness doesn’t last, the prince changes back into a frog, and I would probably be one of the suffragettes and feminists were I to live a century earlier, etc. etc., but it is an illusion that has been sitting in us since we were all kids and read fairy-tales. This illusion is still there, at the very bottom, somehow like the lowest layer, one’s instinct of sorts, upon which I lay all that logic mentioned above.
Somebody said that it would interesting to know how many people exactly on this planet would fall in love if they did not hear about love, passion, etc. all their lives since childhood well into adulthood from other people, books, films, etc.?
The more you write about men, the more I think I may not be a man after all..HAHA
Well, I am taking all those things primarily from books written by two practising Russian psychologists. One of them, while counselling people, would also conduct opinion polls. I think that he posed each of the questions (and situations) to at least 2000 men and women and translated their responses into percentages. Sometimes the opinions and answers of the men and women would be about the same, but sometimes there would be a significant difference between how many men would think this and how many woman would think this. Of course, this doesn’t mean that in answer to any given question or a situation there are no men not thinking as the majority of the women, the key here is how many men think that and how many women think that. That is all.
Also, all that you have written so far, all of the issues that are on your mind make me think that you are far from being a typical man (again, with all due respect and bearing in mind that I am against generalising), so no wonder that your thoughts and reactions are different from those belonging to an average man from the street.
Not sure about this one because she loves a lot of things that I never want to love, like purses, shoes, Stephen Colbert and Jon Oliver. I appreciate that there are things she does that I have no interest in, and that there are things that I love that she has no interest in. I think it is one of the ways that people stay together longer, because you have interests outside of your partner. Not always the case but I think there is truth in it
This one is a real-life illustration of a slide show that I flipped through on what a healthy relationship entails.
It sounds to me like you and your wife are on the same page, so again, I am wondering what is stopping you from going ahead (and telling us about the result ;)))?
I once encountered that view point that the worst of all possible vices is fear because everything stems from it – the fear of losing somebody or something, the fear of not being up to the par, the fear of being alone, etc. If one gives it a serious thought, everything seems to have fear as the underlying reason. But again, I don’t know – maybe I am trying to build the case of fear being behind everything, so naturally, I find proof of it and dismiss or fail to notice what doesn’t prove it?…
Enjoy your weekend, write when you can, no rush.
X
October 14, 2017 at 8:09 pm #173185AnonymousInactiveHey, Matt!
It may be fear after all.
You don’t have to fear that shoes or bags will take your wife away from you.
(I have never been into fashion, clothing, shoes, bags, makeup; I don’t cook and never liked sewing or knitting; have never wanted to wear skirts or dresses, unless they were long – so on the surface I could just as well question myself being a woman ;))
But you love your wife, and you have every reason to believe that not complying with her wishes will take her away from you (which you fear and don’t want). So your subconscious is conditioning your body to accept the situation, which would otherwise be unacceptable. Hence all your questioning, reasoning, trying to see why not, etc.
What do you think?
X
October 16, 2017 at 7:50 pm #173473MattParticipantHey X,
I hope you had a wonderful weekend, my weekend was really amazing, one of the best that I have had in a long time. Spent all weekend with the wife and kids. My wife and I were focused on each other and really made great strides within our relationship. We talked and laughed and were just there with each other. It was like a huge sigh of relief, I don’t think we are out of the woods yet, but after this weekend a lot of things have been reconciled.
You brought that mushroom example, well, it makes one think that feelings may change with time. How soon might they change here regarding open marriage?
I would think that these things could change over night, as more experienced is gained more insight into your happiness level is gained. I also think that the more conversations that are had the more insight is gained. As I travel down this road I am starting to learn that in order for my marriage to be successful I need to be able to honestly communicate with my wife on a very deep and open level. Something that I had never practiced in the past. You know the whole men talking about their feelings thing
You seem to be really warming up to the idea, what is stopping you from having an open marriage now?
Maybe, but maybe as my wife and I communicate more, and I start to give her the attention that she is craving, an open marriage is not needed. My wife told me this weekend that since I have been opening up with her, and have been spending more time focusing on her that she hasn’t been texting with Jay as much.
Somebody said that it would interesting to know how many people exactly on this planet would fall in love if they did not hear about love, passion, etc. all their lives since childhood well into adulthood from other people, books, films, etc.?
Interesting idea, so lets talk about the reason for Love. I imagine that evolutionary, the reason for love would be to ensure that two humans get together to have children, and those feelings we call love are there to ensure that the child gets the safety of being raised in the so called best conditions possible. It has been shown that just touching your partners skin releases an endorphin rush in the brain. Increased dopamine, that feeling of pleasure is what keeps you connected with that person. You want to stay with that person because of those feelings. Is it possible to have those dopamine hits with more than one person at a time. Not sure of the answer to that one.
I agree that men and women typically react in different ways, we are seeing this first hand with our teenage son. My wife sometimes gets upset because he answers some things as see says “that is a typical male response” I agree, but as I get older, things take on a different perspective. I am definitely seeing things in different lights, whether that is because I am actively trying to get to the bottom of feelings. It would be just as easy to continue to think along the same path, but I have realized it wasn’t getting me nowhere, and was having a very negative impact on my marriage. Just by taking a different approach has given me some freedom from those old feelings. And some insight into who I want to be and who I don’t want to be
It sounds to me like you and your wife are on the same page, so again, I am wondering what is stopping you from going ahead (and telling us about the result ;)))?
I think what you said in the beginning about mid-life crisis might be close, what if we are having an awakening of sorts. I feel like I am evolving my feelings and thoughts. There are still some very scary feelings, and places in my psyche that need to be explored. But the overall idea is not as frightening as it was initially. For right now it seems to be in a holding pattern.
maybe I am trying to build the case of fear being behind everything, so naturally, I find proof of it and dismiss or fail to notice what doesn’t prove it?…
I think you are exactly right with this one. Fear controls every decision that we make, the ego is your coat of armor trying to protect yourself. The key to dealing with your ego is to start by looking at your fears. “The ego is the false self—born out of fear and defensiveness.” ~John O’Donohue
But you love your wife, and you have every reason to believe that not complying with her wishes will take her away from you (which you fear and don’t want). So your subconscious is conditioning your body to accept the situation, which would otherwise be unacceptable. Hence all your questioning, reasoning, trying to see why not, etc.
What do you think?
I think that I am trying to get to the root cause of my fear so that I can be more whole as a person and not let my ego control how I respond to certain situations.
- This reply was modified 7 years, 2 months ago by Matt.
October 17, 2017 at 6:45 pm #173623AnonymousInactiveHi, Matt,
Yes, my weekend went very well, thank you for asking (and thank you for wishing me a great one before that ;)). This weekend and the one before that was very productive, I’d put it this way. I do seamanship training once every two weeks, had to do a make-up in addition to that and also it was time for my fall cleaning. Some things remain to be done this weekend, but after that I can relax and really savour being at home and not having to go anywhere and be on time for anything.
I need to be able to honestly communicate with my wife on a very deep and open level. Something that I had never practiced in the past. You know the whole men talking about their feelings thing
Aha, so psychologists are right more often than not after all! :))) Of course, one always has to adjust for that particular given individual, but still…
Maybe, but maybe as my wife and I communicate more, and I start to give her the attention that she is craving, an open marriage is not needed. My wife told me this weekend that since I have been opening up with her, and have been spending more time focusing on her that she hasn’t been texting with Jay as much.
That is such good news!!! Do keep it up! Very happy and glad for you both!!! So she was craving attention from you. Another thought had also crossed my mind before – that open marriage thing might be also a desire to have one’s cake and eat it, too. Here, however, again, one needs to root for the cause of it. Say, I am convinced that in the case of my ex, his not divorcing straight away, when he was head over heels for me, was due to the fact that that would have put him back on his career path and he didn’t have that many years ahead of him to fulfill the dream he had been pursuing since childhood. Later on, however, when everything seemed to be going as planned, not quite, but more or less, he didn’t want to divorce her (his love for me already being on the wane EVEN THOUGH there were a lot of things that could be seen as proof that that was not so) because he needed somebody there to keep up the house for him, him being so focused on his career. He basically kept his wife as a housekeeper and me as a mistress dangling that carrot before both of us that he would eventually choose either one. Of course, all that on the subconscious level, like a dog would know whom to approach for a handout or a two-year old kid would know with whom of his family throwing a fit would work and with whom – no way. Actually, I was the one who told him that when the wife and the mistress are so locked in their positions, neither one budging, the man finds a third one. Which exactly what happened.
So your wife may have been indeed communicating that much with Jay to provoke a response from you, to make you think what you might be missing (and she succeeded!), or she may have indeed been in limbo, like I was at one point not knowing whether to stay with my married #2 (who stopped even mentioning divorce after having said that he would be considering it once I had returned back from my home country) or to go to #3 (who was also married, but seemed to be willing to go to great lengths for me to be in his life while he was married and to divorce “after a year or two”). I was very much in love with #2, but the disappointment was already starting to take its toll and the love for #3 was already starting to develop. It was a terrible six weeks emotion-wise, wouldn’t wish it upon the worst enemy (not that I have one).
It has been shown that just touching your partners skin releases an endorphin rush in the brain. Increased dopamine, that feeling of pleasure is what keeps you connected with that person.
True. At the same time, I also read that men often withdraw there and when women feel the utmost connection. You can find more on this, I’ll just quickly quote what I have read before in a number of spots. “Men feel love when a woman is happy resulting from something he did. This causes him to bond with her. Once he bonds, oxcytocin, another hormone, gets pumped into his system. While oxcytocin helps women relax and causes them to bond and fall in love after sex, this hormone makes men feel stressed. This is partly because their testosterone levels drop below normal. As a result, men often withdraw to recoop. They need to remember their independence and do “guy stuff” in order to rebuild their testosterone to normal levels. That’s when they are ready to come back to you. Turns out this is all very normal for the regular guy. Too much closeness can cause him to retreat and this is a direct results of his hormones.”
So… Would this be true for you as a man?
I will start first with the idea of exploring these emotions. This process is surely new to me, I have lived my life burying my emotions and feelings. Most of my life has gone by with an emotional flat line. There were up and down spikes here and there but looking inside and expressing those feelings/emotions was not something that I did. So why now, I don’t know exactly other than it feels like the thing I need to do. It is extremely uncomfortable, but quite freeing. Kinda like that flashlight idea, the more I shine that light around these areas that I have been hiding, the more I realize that I have been lying to myself, hiding things from myself, or not really living life to the fullest. And I like that notion of living life outside your comfort zone. I have felt more alive over the last couple of months than I have in awhile. Even though it has caused some hurt and misery. I like the idea of spending more time exploring who I really am.
That is great for a number of reasons! One, it proves my guess that all those books, classic novels that critics tout as ingenious insights into the human psyche showing HOW EXACTLY the characters arrived at this or that, achieved some sort of enlightenment, became better persons, are pretty much nonsense. One can, I think, list all the reasons and events leading up to the realization of something, but I don’t think one can really describe how exactly or when it worked. It just happened, like an idea forming in one’s mind, like a bulb in those comic books. Only later, when we try to reason, to talk to oneself, only then do we start forming sentences; before that, it was a sudden occurrence of an idea, nothing more.
Second, I would very much love your case to be the reason for me to hope that my “most recent” guy will finally find peace with himself. (And yes, I would like to have reason to hope that he will search me out again, like he did two times already, one out of the blue (even though I knew that we had chemistry – we met originally when I was still with my ex) and the other one after a two-month silence. But I want (and sort of hope, but not hold my breath and live my life) him to do it this time for real, because he would have healed.)
I don’t think he and his wife will ever really get back together. Out of curiosity, I looked up his Twitter account yesterday after a lapse (not so hard to do now) of over a month. Still no ring (it has been over a year now), doing a tour (you could call him a public figure, and it might be one more reason for him not to divorce his wife lest she should start a smearing campaign and make his affair of several years ago known), ticking off his bucket list items (he retired quite early), looking as if he sometimes drinks in the evenings and as if he put on a little weight. Avoids being at home at all costs.
Now, I don’t know if he is going to continue like this forever (though I wonder what will happen once his bucket list is all done and the daughter is off to college – or maybe his wife WILL finally realize that this is NOT a family life (if she hasn’t done it already and is merely waiting for the girl to leave the family nest; but my ex’s wife was doing all she could to turn a blind eye to her husband living a full double life with me – she was so blindly in love with him as I was and as his current wife is – narcissists are great at that) and take the decisive step), and I certainly can’t count on him searching me out again but for good this time when he could try and get back with that other woman (I don’t know the details of their romance at all), but I do hope he finds peace with himself, because what he is doing right now sure looks like distracting himself while avoiding being with his wife. For my ex, it would certainly be a no-brainer to fall in love with somebody new (and I expect him to do it again in several years), but this guy had been faithful to his wife for 25 years and still can’t forget that other woman completely even though it has been seven years now since the affair, so there is reason to believe that he is not somebody who falls in love just like that.
I am certainly not in love with him. I don’t even know him well – we did discuss nearly everything in writing, but it is not the same as getting to know the person in everyday life, even our regular communication lasted for four months.
I am willing to understand and forget his behaving as if he was falling for me and then basically ghosting on me. I can very well see how intense prolonged stress at home could be the root of it.
I could say that I would be willing to explore the possibility of being with him should he be free and available, also mentally. ‘Cause even though he acted as if he were falling for me two years ago, there were a few red flags that didn’t allow me to believe that he was “all there.”
But I still can’t forget how much chemistry we had, how good it felt to be cuddling with him and, OMG, how witty our chats were, it felt as if fireworks were crackling all around when we chatted! And we discussed some pretty serious things, too, so that also adds to my bewilderment as to how somebody, who feels things so deeply, could behave like that.
Well, I did try to get a rebound with somebody else when my ex announced that he was no longer in love with me. But I checked myself in time, in one day, basically, not after four months.
Add to that all that guy’s blushing and coming up to talk to me later, after “ghosting” on me, and I should really think that he liked me; at least he would consider me an option if he were free.
On the other hand, I knew a couple of guys on whom I would produce that “bowerbird” effect, but their actions would show later that that “effect” only proved that they were willing to have sex with me, not to really care for me.
Still, the vibes I was getting from them were just like that – “sex only,” but the vibes from that guy were totally different.
Pity I haven’t met him in person since August 2016 – I am sure I would know if we met face to face. But he is still in the area, so who knows-?…
She is my soulmate, during our 13 year hiatus when we had zero contact, she always had a place in my subconscious. She was the bar that every other woman I met/dated had to live up to. I none of those individuals even came close to making me feel the same as my wife. Sure there were some who had I had intense physical connection with, and some who I had great social chemistry with.
So I wonder, if there is any way you can dig it up in your psyche and heart, how you managed not to forget her and, at the same time, how you managed to be with somebody else (and kind of compare them to her) if you still remembered her?
I also wonder (and forgive me for the way I put this) why you are not afraid or, rather, ashamed to acknowledge that you love your wife so much, to the point of willing to try an open marriage? (At least, were; hopefully, this is no longer the case.) Or you were able to do it only because no one knows who you are on Tiny Buddha? And you wouldn’t be mentioning this to your male friends for fear of being ridiculed? Or they would understand and not ridicule you for this?
And, since you seem to be such a perfect specimen (no offence intended) of a loving husband and doting father, I would like to hear your thoughts on the following. You know, I must have had some sort of that Electra complex (anita and I dug into this on my thread), because I was totally aware of the fact that my desire not to have children was due not only to the fear of pain when giving birth and not only to the unwillingness to be responsible for somebody spending attention, time, money on him or her and (possibly) getting nothing in return, but primarily, it was due to the unwillingness to share my partner with anybody, even if it were our child. Of course, the fact that nothing is guaranteed and that the father of my child(-ren) may die, leave us, etc. didn’t add to the desire to have children either. Well, I was more willing to have a son than a daughter, but how can one predict?
So I would be grateful if you could elaborate a bit more on how different your feelings towards your daughter are from those for your wife and why somebody like me needs not to be afraid of having children if their father is somebody like you?
Finally, if you could please cast a glance to that other thread of mine and maybe share your thoughts on my response to your guess as to what the reason for my running into unavailable men is, I would really, really appreciate it!
Have a wonderful evening!
X
October 17, 2017 at 9:32 pm #173653MattParticipantX,
It is so nice to get to that point when all is done, and a little relaxation can be had without anything hanging over your head. I love those weekends
This is partly because their testosterone levels drop below normal. As a result, men often withdraw to recoop. They need to remember their independence and do “guy stuff” in order to rebuild their testosterone to normal levels. That’s when they are ready to come back to you. Turns out this is all very normal for the regular guy. Too much closeness can cause him to retreat and this is a direct results of his hormones.”
So… Would this be true for you as a man?
So true, the testosterone dropping, and needing some me time, I can feel when I get to the point when I need some time. Usually I will go for a hike, get out into nature, exercise, paint, edit some of my photos. I think for me having the alone time is most important. The other interesting thing that I have felt is that now that I am eating a healthier diet, meaning much more aware of the sugar and Carbs that I eat and substantial increase in healthy fat, that testosterone dip doesn’t happen nearly as often.
Question, so this guy that you have the Chemistry with, has an ex-wife he has kids with, you as a mistress for a time, and now a current wife?
I am certainly not in love with him. I don’t even know him well – we did discuss nearly everything in writing, but it is not the same as getting to know the person in everyday life, even our regular communication lasted for four months.
I am willing to understand and forget his behaving as if he was falling for me and then basically ghosting on me. I can very well see how intense prolonged stress at home could be the root of it.
This kinda strikes me as something that Jay may say in the future once all of this is said and done. When you are married, stress in the house is so overwhelming because there feels like no escape sometimes. You can’t just go into hiding like when you are single. There is always something that needs to be done, decisions that need to be made between two people. Anger/sadness/neglect all become amplified because that person is always present. I believe that is why marriage is so much work. I have learned that letting those emotions fester is a very dangerous game.
But I still can’t forget how much chemistry we had, how good it felt to be cuddling with him and, OMG, how witty our chats were, it felt as if fireworks were crackling all around when we chatted! And we discussed some pretty serious things, too, so that also adds to my bewilderment as to how somebody, who feels things so deeply, could behave like that.
One of the same questions I have concerning my wife, but I think a sort of compartmentalization occurs, and from some of the ways that she worded things, it felt like she is talking to Jay from a very different part of her pshyche. One that is not connected in any way to our day to day life. Not quite a fantasy world, because she is very much the same person, but from a place where she can not be concerned about the other roles that she has in our life. I am not sure that makes sense but it is a thought
Pity I haven’t met him in person since August 2016 – I am sure I would know if we met face to face. But he is still in the area, so who knows-?…
I would say that meeting face to face would be the true tell, but I would also say that unfortunately to carrying all of the risk in that situation. I mean the fireworks could still be amazing, and the best case scenario would be that it would spark something in him to acknowledge feelings. But the downside is that it would leave everything up in the air again and you would continue having to deal with these unanswered feelings and maybe something that can’t ever be fully explored.
So I wonder, if there is any way you can dig it up in your psyche and heart, how you managed not to forget her and, at the same time, how you managed to be with somebody else (and kind of compare them to her) if you still remembered her?
It wasn’t ever conscious, But the thoughts always came after that initial honeymoon period of new relationships started to wane. When the relationships started getting comfortable, the feelings would always sneak up, and most of the time it ended up being the start of the end of the current relationship. Like one relationship got really serious, we had a great relationship, amazing chemistry, but something just wasn’t there. I don’t know that I can explain it in words. Did you ever have a favorite blanket growing up, one with a silky edge. I did and even though all four corners were exactly the same, there was only one of the corners that I liked to rub on my cheek. why that corner, I don’t know there was just something about it. Maybe I could feel the difference in the way that she loved me, I will have to think on this a little more and get back to you.
I also wonder (and forgive me for the way I put this) why you are not afraid or, rather, ashamed to acknowledge that you love your wife so much, to the point of willing to try an open marriage? (At least, were; hopefully, this is no longer the case.) Or you were able to do it only because no one knows who you are on Tiny Buddha? And you wouldn’t be mentioning this to your male friends for fear of being ridiculed? Or they would understand and not ridicule you for this?
Clarify for me…
I needed a sounding board to discuss feelings concerning the possibility of my wife being intimate with another man. I think I know what my friends would say about this. That would stick up for me and tell me that I needed to think about getting a divorce and letting this relationship go. I don’t think I could get the conversation that I am having with you from my friends. I don’t think ridicule would be the response, I think they would be concerned. I needed a space where I could explore whether a) the jealousy I was feeling was healthy, or if it meant that I should get out of my marriage b) or not a marriage is worth keeping if the two people are open and honest with each other c) if I should still love my wife knowing what I know d) if being intimate with someone else proved that yo don’t love the other person anymore. There are lots of layers, speaking to my friends about it didn’t make sense because I didn’t actually have the total picture as to what I needed to understand.
And, since you seem to be such a perfect specimen (no offence intended) of a loving husband and doting father, I would like to hear your thoughts on the following
Thank-you so much but I am far from a perfect specimen, I have flaws. I have not been the greatest husband or father at times, but I try. I do believe I understand what you are saying though so I will try
So I would be grateful if you could elaborate a bit more on how different your feelings towards your daughter are from those for your wife and why somebody like me needs not to be afraid of having children if their father is somebody like you?
Oh man, kids, this could be hours and hours of writing. I have a very unique perspective since I am not only raising my child, but I am also raising my wifes son from a different man. When my wife and I first got together our son was 7, we had a period of growth between the two of us. His mom had been single, raising him, one other serious relationship who raised our son for a few years, but for the most part it was him and his mother. And now I get involved. I had to work hard to show him that I wasn’t trying to take his mother away from him. We had to work to build a relationship and do those things that build a strong bond so we could trust each other. it took time, but I love him like my own and want to show him how to be a man and succeed at life. I learned that life was no longer just about me, I had this new feeling of having to take care of someone who could not totally take care of them-self. Then our daughter came and that is when my whole life got turned upside down. Our daughter was almost 4 weeks early and she was tiny, but the feelings that came with her were so powerful. You get this sense that it is no longer about you, nothing else matters except the health and safety of this tiny human being. And that is where the difference between my feelings towards my wife and kids lie. You see my wife is my partner in crime, I need her to be with me. I need her to allow me to be myself. I need her to be there to complete me, to support me, to help me grow. With the kids, I love them with everything in this world in order to provide them with what they need to grow into productive responsible adults. That feeling is so amazing and so different. Having kids is scary, there is a lot of bad shit in this world, my wife and I see things everyday that scare the crap out of us. But you will never understand the joy that you feel the first time your child looks you straight in the eyes and says “I love you”, or the happiness seeing your child realize things, or the absolute panic you get the first time you see them fall down and really hurt themselves. I guess living with the wonder and amazement that I get to feel everyday makes it worth more than anything else in the world. I will have a better thought out answer for you later because there is so much more. Having a kid changes everything, including the relationship with your spouse. And that also adds additional stress to your marriage. Love and marriage is all about time, learning how to budget time is the most important skill to raising a family and having a successful marriage.
I will go and take a look at your other post now
Have a great night
Matt
October 18, 2017 at 6:52 pm #173823AnonymousInactiveMatt,
Question, so this guy that you have the Chemistry with, has an ex-wife he has kids with, you as a mistress for a time, and now a current wife?
Oh, Matt, I am afraid I am really confusing with all these “guys of mine.”
Well, to set the record straight, here is the short synopsis of my ex’s love life (my ex = #3 in my other post):
Wife #1 was from college. Married for two years. She gives birth to a child. He knows that his sperm count is low and asks for a genetic test. The baby is not his. They divorce never to communicate again.
Wife #2. Married for seven years. A son born in Year 5 of the relationship. He doesn’t want to upset his parents looking forward to a grandchild, so doesn’t ask for a genetic test. Still doesn’t know whether the boy is his or not. Says the relationship with the wife was bad even before the son was born. Divorced in Year 7.
Between marriages 2 and 3 had several affairs, two of which were with married women who (very wisely – I am surprised they did it or, rather, didn’t do it) decided against divorcing their husbands and marrying him.
Wife #3. In Year 6 meets me. Our relationship goes on until Year 12 when he meets his current wife and for three months or so tells me nothing. Divorces his wife #3 six months after meeting the current wife.
And the guy whom I finally stopped having on my mind two months ago is most often referred to by me as “most recent guy.” Here is the story from that other post.
In June, out of the blue, that guy I can’t stop thinking about now (very mildly compared to the other crushes), wrote to me. We had met before, met in the autumn of 2015, met several times for joint assignments… Besides that, I remember posting for some picture together in front of other people, my elbow against his arm, something was there… Then at a corporate meeting he barely noticed me, so I forgot about him. Then in June, I saw him again after his return from a business trip, and was surprised that he remembered my name. Then he wrote to me out of the blue. We kept the correspondence for six weeks or so (I remember thinking, “What is going on? If you want to ask me out, just ask me out!”) then he invited me to a get-together with other friends and colleagues, I couldn’t come because I had to be elsewhere because of work. Hadn’t heard from him until October 2015 when we started corresponding again (he wrote to me again). That one went pretty well until February 2016 when he stopped for good. We had one full day together talking plus met for a couple of hours for a walk and had a small talk at work one day. During that one-day meeting, he told me about his family troubles. To cut the long story short, he had been married to his high school sweatheart for 20+ years, then met somebody and went crazy. I don’t know why he didn’t divorce for that other woman, but their romance was stopped. He still couldn’t forget her all the way. So needless to say that no counselling for getting back together with his wife helped. I can count at least three times when he put his wedding ring back on and four times when he took it off. The last one was in February 2016 (put on), took off in June or July 2016. But didn’t write to me again. There were a couple of lines from him, but nothing leading to a meaningful discussion of his behavior. He flirted several times and (I think) tried to find out whether I was still single. But nothing. And oh yes, and in December 2015, after a particularly nasty quarrel with his wife, he wanted to crash on my floor. We had never even kissed, just hugged, and I had no intention to sleep with him, and by then I had read advice from men that in similar cases men should be treated as friends (one doesn’t obsess about friends if they don’t write every day, does one?), so I tried to treat him as a friend. He cancelled his visit that night adding that he “can’t have a serious relationship now. I can only be a friend, a good friend, a fun friend, but nothing more than a friend.” Well, we never went out even as friends after that, so I guess he wasn’t such a good friend after all. Then he stopped writing at all, as I mentioned above. Our paths crossed at work a couple of times, our eyes locked for what seemed like eternity, but he never wrote of his own accord. Once we even met at a friend’s party, he sought a place opposite mine, even blushed (he is red, so it is easy to see), but nothing. And then he left work altogether. I found about that on his Twitter, wrote to him a thankful letter to which received a very kind reply saying that he enjoyed our talks and correspondence and adding, “My crazy life is still crazy.” After that I forwarded him some fun stuff with no text from me, he would always reply. A couple of times, he would even ask something pertaining to those fun forward links from me. But nothing developed into meaningful discussions like before.
Maybe that’s for the better, since I remember that in 2016, I thought that he had got to know each other so well and the spark is obviously there, so come on, stop procrastinating, let’s start dating (after divorce, of course – his wife asked him out of their house and he had been renting an apartment for several months).
After reading Tiny Buddha and following similar situations with either divorcing or recently divorced men (this one is not even divorcing yet – presumably waiting for his younger daughter to whom he is very attached to graduate (in three years; son graduating this year)), I know that he has a lot of issues to address within himself, find out himself before he is good dating material. Even if he divorced and we got together, I doubt that it would last. And when he divorces (I don’t see how they can stay together given what I know and feel), he may very well seek that other woman whom he still can’t forget, he may reach out to me – again! – like he did two times already or – like my #3 – he could meet somebody new, fall in love and divorce his wife for that new lady. No guarantee that it would last either.
I remember how I was thrown aback when we met in November 2015 after that renewed correspondence lasting for one month. I thought it was some kind of a date, and he goes – straight away, upon seeing me – “I don’t want to marry, I just want to pass a nice evening” (which we did, staying up cuddling and talking until 2:30 in the morning, didn’t even kiss). Or, on that very day, he told me that he would never marry his wife again (like Elizabeth Taylor did), and then, after two or three months tried to get back with her, however involuntarily that might have been.
This kinda strikes me as something that Jay may say in the future once all of this is said and done.
Jay is not married, is he?
Not quite a fantasy world, because she is very much the same person, but from a place where she can not be concerned about the other roles that she has in our life. I am not sure that makes sense but it is a thought
You know, people with vivid imaginations (like me) often imagine some imaginary friends (like kids do) or lovers when they get older. So Jay may very well be performing that function for your wife, only he is a real person. As a side note, psychologists say that there is nothing wrong with people or kids having imaginary friends (let’s put it this way). As long as people can distinguish who is real and who is not, there is no harm.
I would say that meeting face to face would be the true tell, but I would also say that unfortunately to carrying all of the risk in that situation. I mean the fireworks could still be amazing, and the best case scenario would be that it would spark something in him to acknowledge feelings. But the downside is that it would leave everything up in the air again and you would continue having to deal with these unanswered feelings and maybe something that can’t ever be fully explored.
This is exactly what happened in August 2016 when I saw him last. We hadn’t seen each other since March, I believe. Well, there was one additional time when our eyes met across other people’s heads in the corridor, so I know that he had seen me and recognized me (but never called or texted how I was). A similar thing occurred in July 2016 when I felt somebody’s gaze on me, looked up to meet him glancing away. That was at a distance, and soon he left. Again, no call or message. And then was that friend’s party that I described above. It almost felt like a date to me, us sitting opposite each other, only surrounded by many other people. But maybe it is wishful thinking on my part.
You know, I couldn’t stand having him on my mind all this time and wrote to him in June this year saying basically that I was still interested in him. He replied almost exactly like he had written to me back in December 2015 when he cancelled his crashing on my floor. Let me quote what he replied. “Wow, [my name], I’m flattered. And sorry. And ugh. I’m sorry if I caused any problems. I have been a total mess in my life! And super busy. I’m with my son getting him ready for college now! Anyway, I’m still here. But the same old mess…”
And also given that I have seen men flutter around me only then to reveal by their actions that what they wanted was only to sleep with me, I would still not know unless he told me directly. And even if he felt something, I bet he had gotten a good lesson when he was that love-struck seven years ago to try something again while married. But I don’t think he feels something for me right now. And what he felt back then, two years ago, was close, but not what I really want. You see, we communicated so much, yet there were some things happening around (with weather, for instance) that should have made him inquire how I was doing if he really cared for me. Yet I didn’t hear from him then. Yes, I did hear later, but it was not related. Same thing this year. If he had really been that “good friend” he claimed he could be even though he couldn’t (“couldn’t” – not “wanted”!) to be in a relationship, he would have had a perfect excuse to check up on me. He didn’t.
So the only viable scenario that I can envision (but that is very unlikely) is that we somehow run into each other again, the chemistry still being there and him being already free AND healed and ready for a relationship (from what I could see on his Twitter, nothing has changed in that respect for him – he is still mentally unavailable), and off we go from scratch. As if nothing had ever taken place before.
Highly unlikely, so I am glad I stopped having him on my mind and had no problems not looking up his Twitter for a month.
But, at the same time, I can’t help thinking what a good match it might be. And I do have awesome chemistry with him. But does that mean that he feels the same chemistry with me? My experience and research shows that yes, but even with the chemistry, didn’t I have chemistry with all my exes? I did. And how it all ended? Not so good…
Amd I don’t really know him in real life, so it might be a complete illusion on my part. In writing, we discussed literally everything, up to how one handles finances!
When the relationships started getting comfortable, the feelings would always sneak up, and most of the time it ended up being the start of the end of the current relationship. Like one relationship got really serious, we had a great relationship, amazing chemistry, but something just wasn’t there. I don’t know that I can explain it in words.
So with your wife, that feeling that something wasn’t there never appeared? You and your wife went past the times when your other relationships would end, and yours still continued on a high note, just as enjoyable, with no end in sight?
I don’t think ridicule would be the response, I think they would be concerned.
Very interesting (for me). I realized that I might still be afraid of others and of life at some deep level. I mean, I am not afraid to be different on the outward and in my thoughts, but I am cautious (yes, “cautious” would be the right word) about voicing something that is unexpected and unusual for others to hear.
Thank-you so much but I am far from a perfect specimen, I have flaws. I have not been the greatest husband or father at times, but I try. I do believe I understand what you are saying though so I will try
You are a great person for me to talk to because a) you are a real man; b) your truly love your wife and c) you are not afraid and are willing to register your feelings and process where they are coming from.
but I am also raising my wifes son from a different man
One more reason for me to communicate with you ‘cause it proves how serious your approach to love and relationships is.
And that is where the difference between my feelings towards my wife and kids lie. You see my wife is my partner in crime, I need her to be with me. I need her to allow me to be myself. I need her to be there to complete me, to support me, to help me grow.
Awesome lines! They tell me that my ideal of a relationship as being partners in crime, as you put it, is not unattainable AND that men (at least, some men) can have the same attitude. You see, I am looking for a partner, first of all. I am not looking for a father (well, they say that the husband must be more experienced and more intelligent than the wife for the couple to be stable, so yes, I AM looking for somebody who knows more than I do), I am not looking for a son (God forbid – could never stand immature men), I am looking for somebody on the same level as I am, an equal partner. I believe I am also looking for somebody who has achieved something in life, but not because I am ambitious (I don’t think I am). Partially, it is because I have achieved quite a lot without connections, just talent, hard work and good luck; but mainly it is because I can’t stand the idea of my man rising high only to discover that he can’t pass the test of fame or fortune, that he is ungrateful.
October 18, 2017 at 7:59 pm #173825MattParticipantX,
Okay, wow, now that is a relationship to wrap my head around. No wonder about the confusion. Your Ex sounds like he could use some alone time to straighten himself out first. There is a whole lot of selfishness there to be able to walk into peoples lifes like that and rip everything apart, throw it onto the ground, and walk away with no remorse. That is like a picture of a Tornado ripping through the landscape leaving devastation behind. I am sure there were many fun times, and times of hope, but he was a master manipulator that was able to get everything that he wanted. Out of curiosity, what is the biggest thing that you take away from that relationship?
I terms of the most recent guy, that does go to show how important chemistry is, and how powerful it is. For you to have gone through what you did with your ex and still continue to put yourself in a situation which has all of the makings of a very hard relationship to make work. So lets talk about challenges. From everything you have wrote about, I can assume that you are extremely intelligent, and have worked really hard to get where you are. Is there something there about the challenge of winning the affection of these men who on the outside look unattainable.
Jay is not married, is he?
Jay is divorced with no kids, I don’t know how long he was married for, or when or why he was divorced. It must not have been too good because he must not have any respect for the sanctity of marriage. But then again I think through this whole process, my thoughts on marriage have definitely been altered
You know I think that she is using it as sort of a break from reality, I fantasy that she can slip into where all of the stress of our day to day lives shrink away.
So the only viable scenario that I can envision (but that is very unlikely) is that we somehow run into each other again, the chemistry still being there and him being already free AND healed and ready for a relationship (from what I could see on his Twitter, nothing has changed in that respect for him – he is still mentally unavailable), and off we go from scratch. As if nothing had ever taken place before.
After reading everything, I think that unfortunately you served a purpose in his life and did not get anything in return. I like that you have decided to turn the page, it sounds like continuing to actively pursue/think anything will happen would only serve to hamper you growing more. As an aside,I do believe that if it were meant to be it will show itself and the picture you are painting for yourself is correct.
So with your wife, that feeling that something wasn’t there never appeared? You and your wife went past the times when your other relationships would end, and yours still continued on a high note, just as enjoyable, with no end in sight?
Correct, with my wife, as unsexy as this sounds, it was like your favorite pair of slippers they just fit and they always feel so damn good to put on. We have some very challenging times and the relationship has not been enjoyable all the time, kinda like when those slippers get stinky, the thought of throwing them away never crosses your mind. I have never had that feeling with my wife that something was missing.
I realized that I might still be afraid of others and of life at some deep level
After reading everything else you wrote, I think there might be something to this statement.
I think that when you stop looking for that ideal man, and start looking for people that meet some small need on yours that you will find there are a lot of people out there that can provide you with fulfillment. Then that partner in crime will show up. I also don’t entirely agree that a husband must be more experienced and intelligent than the wife. I think that when you find your partner, you will realize that you compliment each other. Sure there are certain things that I know more about than my wife, but there are lots of ways that my wife is way more intelligent than I am, and that is one of the things that turns me on about her. Granted there are some men out there that aren’t looking for that, because they are intimidated buy intelligent women. They know that they can’t control intelligent women the same way, and are probably the ones that you want to stay away from. My wife knows my weaknesses and doesn’t want to use those against me, but rather help me grow through them. You should want that equal partner that holds the same attitude on life as you. Now my wife and I are also very opposite when it comes to certain things and that is okay to. Like I said it is about complimenting each other.
I gotta go take care of something really quick but will be back shortly
Matt
October 18, 2017 at 8:46 pm #173831AnonymousInactiveGood evening, Matt!
Just saw your reply on this thread (hope you will reply something just as insightful on the other ;)), but it is my bedtime already.
I don’t know if I have time to write an answer tomorrow evening (I have a fencing class), but I already have some thoughts worth jotting down.
I will for sure reply on Friday.
It has all been very helpful for me, but the process is still ongoing.
Funny, it seemed yesterday as if I had written everything I wanted, you replied – and I could immediately see what else needed to be said. Same thing today.
Take care and have a great night!
X
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