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- This topic has 34 replies, 6 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 4 months ago by Call Me Ishmael.
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August 18, 2016 at 1:29 pm #112773Call Me IshmaelParticipant
Dear Anita:
Thank you for your kind thoughts and words.
The world would indeed be a far different place—a better place—if there were more sustained empathy in it.
Although the movie A Beautiful Mind faux pas-ed in its portrayal of the Nash Equilibrium, as well as its portrayal of Adam Smith’s theory, I am inclined to agree with the idea that the best result comes from everyone in the group (families, friends, neighborhoods, cities, states, countries, and humanity on the whole)—and each group, as well—doing not only what is best for him/her/itself, but also what is good for the whole group/collection of groups/humanity.
I suggest that through the mutual application of empathy between two or more people, a group is mentally and socially formed, and from there the idea above applies from the micro to the macro. The keyword, however, is “mutual.” Empathy, as you rightly implied, shouldn’t only be one-sided.
That’s also not to say that empathy is the only thing needed for a world of happy human interaction, but it is a danged good start.
In point of fact, I was not looking for a girlfriend when I met her, nor am I now. I am well at ease with not being in a relationship. (In her case, I am particularly well at ease with not being in a parasitic relationship!) I would, however, be very happy to have someone in my life, with whom I am mutually compatible, who is like the person you describe.
My relationship with her was a learning experience, as are all relationships. Although I have realistically known this all along, through my experiences with her, the idealist part of me was a bit saddened to be made fully aware that, in the end, compassion is a risk to the person extending the compassion, and perhaps to the person being shown compassion—if the compassion unwittingly enables a negative behavior, for example. On the other hand, for everyone to withhold compassion from each other would constitute a risk to “the group” as well.
And then there would be far too many frowny faces in the world. 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁
Danged if we do; danged if we don’t.
CMI 🙂
August 18, 2016 at 8:59 pm #112817AnonymousGuestDear CMI:
Will be reading your latest post and replying tomorrow morning. Lots of frowny faces there….and one smiley one. Till the morrow-
anita
August 19, 2016 at 7:45 am #112838AnonymousGuestDear CMI:
Good read. I am motivated to think further on this part of your post: “compassion is a risk to the person extending the compassion, and perhaps to the person being shown compassion”-
Empathy or compassion is a risk to the person extending the compassion, I agree, very much so. When a child feels empathy for a suffering parent, the child is likely to proceed with attempts to ease the suffering of the parent by negating his own needs and focusing only on the needs of the parent, establishing a pattern of people pleasing, what is called by some “co-dependence”- and living one life FOR another person, sacrifice. Much misery involved, a whole lot.
When you feel empathy for a person who is engaged in hurting you, be it a parent or girlfriend, this is also very risky, or dangerous. When you put yourself in the shoes of the person abusing you, understanding her motives, giving her leeway, you are taking indeed her side… against you: if a person acts against you and you take her side, you are, by definition, against yourself.
Empathy works in the context of Win-Win interactions and relationships.
anita
August 19, 2016 at 8:26 am #112840ButterflyParticipantCMI,
Thank you again form your reply. Yes, I think I will dig more into that (SS). I have written down LOTS of things I would like to say, but no I have not called or mailed it. I am sticking to NC. You are correct. Since he NEVER can really find fault in his own behavior it would probably be pointless. And even though he is not really a MEAN person, he may be “mean” and say something like well just move on then. Which wouldn’t feel good. Yes, and I DO NOT want to get sucked back in again which he is VERY good at doing with his half-hearted apologies. Yes, I do not feel like I expect a reply to a call or letter but not knowing if he heard/listened to a voicemail or read the letter would probably bother me, so you are right. Yes, as the days go by I am slowly forgetting about the need for closure. I have to live with the fact that I just may NEVER get it and even if I did it may not be the closure I WANT. Yeah My close friends and family have also suggested therapy and I just may look into that. I definitely do want to speed my healing as this pain has been horrible. I tried to create a stand alone tread on the topic but I wasn’t sure how to do it. I did post on here but I’m sad to say I don’t know where it “went.” Thank you again.
I am trying! Yes I can!!Butterfly
August 19, 2016 at 6:57 pm #112878Call Me IshmaelParticipantHi, Anita and Butterfly.
Thank you for your responses. I won’t have a chance to reply in detail tonight, but I will tomorrow.
Have a good evening.
CMI
August 19, 2016 at 8:37 pm #112886AnonymousGuestYou are welcome, CMI, and thank you for the note. Will read from you later, then.
anitaAugust 20, 2016 at 7:43 pm #112919Call Me IshmaelParticipantDear Anita:
I particularly like your thoughts on empathizing with a person who is engaged in hurting you. I had never thought about the functional aspect of taking sides against one’s self.
Although I have never expected or hoped to derive any personal benefit from extending empathy or compassion, I have neglected to think fully about the ways in which my empathy and compassion could become a detriment to me. I am cognizant of most of the overt, and even the fairly covert, ways in which it could become a detriment to me, but the very subtle ways I tend to overlook.
I fully agree about the context of win-win. The problem is that when one first tests the waters of empathy with someone one doesn’t know, it is almost impossible to know if it is a win-win situation. Trial and error, I guess.
Perhaps it is the idealistic side of me, but for some reason it seems incongruent that, in the interest of self-preservation, extending compassion and empathy requires a certain mentality of watching one’s back for the possibility of an approaching knife. Clearly it does, but somehow it just feels odd.
CMI
August 20, 2016 at 7:44 pm #112920Call Me IshmaelParticipantHi, Butterfly.
Looking back on my experience with the woman I wrote about, I am convinced that the complete lack of contact between us (although it took a few weeks after the official “end” of the relationship) was one of the things that helped me to better process everything that happened and allowed me to gain a more objective and less emotional perspective on our relationship. It was that increased objectivity and decreased emotion that allowed me to begin regaining my happiness and positivity. I encourage you to adamantly adhere to no contact with him. Yes, it will be very hard. Yes, you will still have all of your questions and desire for answers. Yes, you will still remember the good and great times you had together, and long to experience those things again. Yes, you will still have the desire for him to know how he hurt you. But do not give in. Doing so will only prolong your pain.
Also, ask yourself if there any realistic chance, in the very near future, of him miraculously and permanently changing his behavior so that it is positive and non-destructive to you, and so that it will allow your relationship to become healthy and flourish. If not, then stick with your decision for the relationship to be over, which means doing every positive thing you can to ensure that it stays over, including no contact.
I can understand how, if you were to send a letter (or whatever), that you would have a desire to know if he read it. I would feel the same way. I think it’s great that you are aware of that and that you factor it into your decision-making process.
If you are positive that you want to overcome this as soon, as effectively, and as positively as possible, I encourage you to look into finding a good therapist. I imagine that quality, professional therapy would also help you avoid entering into a relationship like that again.
I hope all the best for you.
CMI
August 20, 2016 at 9:01 pm #112923AnonymousGuestDear CMI:
You wrote: ” in the interest of self-preservation, extending compassion and empathy requires a certain mentality of watching one’s back for the possibility of an approaching knife”-
Often people extend empathy to people who already hurt them in the past and keep hurting, repeatedly. So that would be, using your image, a knife coming from the front.
For a win-win relationship it is important to get to know the person over time before getting too attached and too invested. That way you keep your thinking objective enough to see clearly.
anita
August 21, 2016 at 5:38 pm #112949Call Me IshmaelParticipantDear Anita:
I agree. I was thinking more about the first time one extends empathy to someone one doesn’t know well.
I also agree about getting to know someone before becoming too invested, but I suggest that one can never be absolutely sure about another. As with the woman I wrote about, she and I had slowly gotten to know each other over the course of several months. It wasn’t until we started to become emotionally intimate that the problems started, but I was already invested in her as a person, and as a friend. In the calm objectivity of distant hindsight, I can say that I should have required a higher level of proof regarding her veracity before proceeding, but at the time I trusted what I had come to know over a period of months. It would have been more convenient had she told me that she had a disorder (and had she named the disorder) that specifically caused problems with emotional empathy, and caused her behavior to be extremely destructive the closer to emotional intimacy she became, but she didn’t. She only told me about the diagnoses that elicited my compassion, and gave me a vague warning that she was un-loveable.
But, as I mentioned before, our relationship was a learning experience.
Lesson learned.
CMI
August 21, 2016 at 7:16 pm #112955Call Me IshmaelParticipantErratum —
Sorry; I meant to write: “… that specifically caused problems with emotional intimacy…” not “emotional empathy”.
CMI
August 21, 2016 at 9:10 pm #112968AnonymousGuestDear CMI:
You are making a good point I didn’t think about: a person’s problems can begin showing only after intimacy has already been established. So as a friend she may act okay, calm, reliable but once intimate, then the trouble for her starts. Good point. Maybe part of knowing a potential partner would be to ask her about her past relationships… or better, maybe, hear what she has to say about others’ intimate relationships, maybe one portrayed in a movie, comments she makes can be conversation starters for you.
anita
August 22, 2016 at 8:40 am #112991ButterflyParticipantHello CMI,
I agree with everything you said. It has been easier and easier as the days go on for the most part. I have been processing all that I have read and it is helping with me decreasing my emotions and thinking logically about it all. Yes, I still have questions “Was ANY of it REAL” “why the games & lies?”…etc. But WHO knows whether I would ever get a straight answer anyway. I can’t continue to want answers I may never get and may not like anyway. So I am moving on, focusing on ME & my life. I hopefully have MANY years left to meet and be HAPPY with someone who isn’t a sociopath. I am proud to say he texted me twice (generic texts at that) this weekend and I did not respond. Did not even have the desire too. They just annoyed me honestly. THANK GOD this is getting easier. Thank you so much, being able to vent so freely to someone helps a lot too. Hope you had a wonderful weekend.
Butterfly
August 22, 2016 at 7:43 pm #113037Call Me IshmaelParticipantDear Anita:
Those are some good ideas. We did talk about our past relationships, but nothing rang any alarm bells at the time.
As I found out later in the relationship, after the behavioral issues manifested themselves, she literally prided herself on hiding things from everyone (although she wasn’t nearly as good at hiding as she thought she was). With that kind of mentality, I’m not sure such a person’s responses would be very indicative of his/her true thoughts anway. If a person is intent on actively hiding a disorder (which she was), particularly a disorder that could have a negative and destructive impact on one’s partner, and if a person prides him/herself on hiding things, I’m not sure a partner, or prospective partner (especially someone who has never encountered such a situation before), could ever be fully prepared or forewarned against such deceit.
I am much more attuned to the clues now, though. As I said: a learning experience.
Have a good evening.
CMI
August 22, 2016 at 7:46 pm #113038Call Me IshmaelParticipantHi, Butterfly.
Wondering if any of it was “real” was something I struggled with, too. I know it was real for me, and I imagine that pieces of it were real for her, but much of it was nothing more than a game of deceit for her. And with so much deceit, the pieces that were real were like the kernels of half-truths wrapped in a Gordian knot of lies. And half-truths are whole lies.
What bothers me about the “reality” of our relationship was that I know now that the person for whom I cared so deeply, and loved so comprehensively, was, in the end, just a composite of illusions, just a phantom. And now that everything is over, even though I know it was all BS, I still have those lingering feelings of caring, love, and compassion for her. That’s the hardest pill to swallow.
Good for you for not replying to his texts. The woman I was involved with pulled that poo, too.
Feel free to vent anytime.
Stay strong.
CMI
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