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October 11, 2016 at 10:05 am #117779greenshadeParticipant
Hey guys..I just got into a “discussion” with my dad. I usually keep things with him on the surface. My dad has bipolar disorder; abusive and controlling during manic phases when I was a child; has mellowed since then. He expresses a lot of love, lots of hugs, talks to me using baby talk to express love (?!). I do not find this natural, think its fake and I fake a response to it generally.
My therapist thinks I’m assuming that hes acting. My basis for this assumption is that in the past he has lied to me about money that was sent to me by an uncle, where he kept it and told me I had spent it even thou I had kept careful written account and know I haven’t. Once he apologized to me for treating me badly, he was crying, with his hands covering his face but I saw him peak out at me from behind his hands and smirk. There are other multiple instances where hes told my mum ive said things I haven’t and vice versa, not to set us against each other but to get his own way. I also feel he tries to control me using guilt; when I was travelling for work he would call every few hours and keep telling me how lonely and sad he was. As a result I changed work plans and stopped studying for the qualification I was studying for because I felt so guilty.
Today something small happened. He went behind my back and tried to control some small aspect of my life. I let him know that wasn’t okay, which is the first time ive done something like that. It should have stopped there but snow balled into him saying he wished I would spend the two hours I spend on way to work with him (basically I shouldn’t go to work), me saying he couldn’t use me as an emotional crutch and needed to take responsibility for his own well being.
He basically responded by saying he mustve done something really bad to deserve a daughter like me; again the tone was sad but he was smirking as he said it. Now hes back to “my sweet child, my lovely child”, gushing over me.
I’m so confused about this. I don’t know whether to feel guilty or if Ive done the right thing. I guess I feel like I need perspective.
Also, I’m sorry for the extremely long post; lots of back grounds to give. Thanks for reading you guys.October 11, 2016 at 11:09 am #117784PeterParticipantWe experience guilt when we know we did, or feel we have done, something wrong. When we are unsure we have done something wrong we experience something else. Discerning what that something else is, requires a great deal of discernment.
Guilt and shame sometimes go hand in hand; the same action may give rise to feelings of both shame and guilt, where the former reflects how we feel about ourselves and the latter involves an awareness that our actions have injured someone else. In other words, shame relates to self, guilt to others.
Sometimes I find it difficult to discern the difference to the feeling of guilt and shame. Often I think that undeserved feelings of quilt are really experienced as undeserved shame, and that the difference is important.
From what you wrote I think you may be experiencing undeserved shame.
Maybe it’s all semantics… however it seems to me you have taken on the responsibility of your father’s feelings and state of mind which has left you feeling bad (equating feeling bad with quilt) about who you are as a daughter and person. As this relates to how you feel about yourself that would be shame. An undeserved shame.
Anyway
I found the fallowing book helpful
‘Shame and Grace: Healing the Shame We Don’t Deserve’ by Lewis B. Smedes- This reply was modified 8 years, 1 month ago by Peter.
October 11, 2016 at 12:27 pm #117788greenshadeParticipantHi Peter thank you for replying!!
You are right, what I’m feeling is shame,not guilt. I think it is undeserved, then I feel crazy for thinking that it is undeserved. It helps to hear someone else say that it is undeserved also, it makes me feel less crazy. I’ve been struggling with this a lot recently, will look into the book you mentioned.
With gratitude,
MOctober 11, 2016 at 6:55 pm #117854AnonymousInactiveDear greenshade:
You wrote: “Once he apologized to me for treating me badly, he was crying, with his hands covering his face but I saw him peak out at me from behind his hands and smirk”
this is crazy making, your own father pretending to cry and smirking instead. We need clear messaged from our parents. We need clarity and honesty. You got none from him.
A child is born needing to trust the parent because of being dependent on the parent. It is a tragedy, for the child, to realize the parent is not dependable. It is quite unbearable to know this about your parent, crazy making. Isn’t it?
I am realizing these very days the full extent of my mother smirking herself when she realized that I was hurt by what she said. She looked for the pain in my face and when she saw it, she smirked.
This kind of behavior on her part has cost me many years of confusion and misery, conflict and distress. It is only when SEEING her for who she is, that I am gaining clarity and peace of mind. Although I still am sad.
anita (temporary account used)
October 12, 2016 at 5:10 am #117885XenopusTexParticipantYou basically thought that you could have s meaningful interaction with somebody who is incapable of such. And, he continued to push your buttons.
Crying in and of itself does not indicate sorrow or regret over things. I see it a lot in court. As judges will do, you fell for it, and wonder why your father was smirking. Simple reason he was smirking: he got the reaction out of you that he wanted. You are here wondering why you feel ashamed; a part of you actually believed his act.
October 12, 2016 at 9:42 pm #117987greenshadeParticipantThanks you guys, for replying!
You are both right anita, and xenopustex. It is crazy making, especially they go back to being loving and needing your support again within minutes, and I do also continually fall for it.
I think the reason I fall for it so continually is because the message is reinforced by my family. Whenever my dad did or said something that was hurtful the blame was turned onto me by my mum, my dad’s psychiatrist, even the teacher I went to talk to for “rocking the boat” or “upsetting him” . As my mum puts it “you cant expect him to change, or admit hes wrong” because “he’s sick and its not his fault”. The gist of it is I have to make peace with being abused, while being abused.
I tried to talk to my mum about shifting out for a bit, while im in therapy and in the process of healing because being around him triggers a lot of my fears and anxiety and she said “youre getting too far out of control”.
So where I am is; Ive made conscious efforts to make myself more aware of who I am and what I feel, and I feel unable to act on it. So i can either find out a way to “re-suppress” everything, which is how ive lived a long time, or act without support which I dont at the moment feel brave enough to do (a single woman moving out of her parents home to live somewhere else in the same city is unheard of in my city so it is unlikely that my extended family or friends would support me. Rather, I am likely to turn myself into a social outcast).
Thank you for allowing me the space to rant!
Lov,
mOctober 13, 2016 at 7:06 am #118002AnonymousGuestDear greenshade:
Four facts:
1. Being in the presence of your father makes your healing very difficult, if not impossible, because “being around him triggers a lot of my fears and anxiety.” Being in the presence of an abuser does that, whether they abuse you at the very moment or in the past (Even if the abuse is in the past, it is already recorded in the brain and is activated by the mere sight and voice of the abuser).
2. Your father is abusive and he is responsible for his behavior. You are not responsible for his behavior.
3. Your mother, his psychiatrist, the teacher, anyone and everyone who denies #2 and puts the responsibility on you, in other words, anyone promoting the concept that your responsibility is “to make peace with being abused, while being abused”- they are ALL wrong. Every single one person.
4. There is this social reality where you live: “a single woman moving out of her parents home to live somewhere else in the same city is unheard of.” Your extended family will not support you in such a move and you will be a social outcast.Where do you go from here, greenshade? What can you possibly do?
anita
October 14, 2016 at 1:12 am #118148greenshadeParticipantHi anita 🙂
I’ve started applying into masters programs abroad, that is one thing that would be socially acceptable as well as get me some space. If I do get in, however, there is a year from now until that will start and until then I’m trying to have as many things outside of home that build my self esteem as possible. But apart from that, dont really know. Its also confusing, because even if I do get out of this situation, I’m slightly afraid of my own self destructive tendencies kicking in, that is I intentionally mess things up when Im close to succeeding at something and while I am aware of this, I havent been able to gain much control over it.October 14, 2016 at 1:33 am #118150AnonymousInactiveYour first post asked for perspective, and although the others have helped you with that I think, I feel so strongly I can’t help but add my perspective: “Holy crap, get away from him! And get a new therapist!”
That baby talk thing is creepy as f***. Stop faking a positive response to it. Calling you every couple of hours to tell you how lonely and sad he is? What is he thinking? And he’s interfering with your career?
OK, so you’re in a bind with regards to your living situation. Do you know for a fact your family wouldn’t support you? Could it be, for example, that your mother’s sister never got on with your father but didn’t let on because of faaamily, but would put you up if you explained the situation? I don’t know, I just feel like you have very strong grounds to want to move out, and reasonable people would help you. It may be worth arranging some time with one or two of your extended family members to have a talk and feel them out.
If you find yourself self-sabotaging, just be like, “Oh, look. I’m sabotaging myself again.” And then you pick up the pieces and try again. Don’t be intimidated by your self-sabotaging self. Remind yourself of the freedom and sanity you stand to gain, and keep trying.
Good luck, man.
October 16, 2016 at 9:54 am #118308greenshadeParticipantHi monklet 🙂
Thank you for replying, and for caring. I’ve stopped faking a response to the baby talk. I’m also working on setting emotional boundaries, which is a little disorienting, to not get caught up in someone else’s emotional storm.My extended family is quite conservative, unfortunately, and the concept of abuse isn’t one that’s understood. They mantain I had a very good childhood because I was financially taken care of when I expressed unhappiness at one point.
Love,
MOctober 16, 2016 at 10:38 am #118314AnonymousGuestDear greenshade:
After reading your note to me I am all for the Master Degree plan, living away from home, in combination with competent therapy so that you don’t sabotage yourself. First thought I had reading your self sabotage tendency, in the context of living away from home, is that part of you wants to be a good daughter to your father by staying with him (and if you leave, that part will want to take you back to him).
In therapy, you can gain insight and learn how to not give in to that part and over time, that need, to be a good daughter to your father will weaken and finally be eradicated.
An abusive, dishonest, manipulative, unrepentant father does NOT deserve a loving, honest, conscientious, loyal daughter. These traits make you available for abuse, not for love.
anita
October 18, 2016 at 1:09 am #118405greenshadeParticipantHey guys.
I guess this is difficult for me to deal with, a lot dissonance sets in whenever I think about my dad.
He has bipolar disorder, so when he is manic he is a different person from who he is usually. When he is not manic, he is depressed. I have not seen him at baseline, if I have I dont remember it. Everyone tells me how loving he is, how caring and thats completely at odds with my own experience. I was also taught to believe how he was acting wasnt his fault because he was sick and not in control of his behavior, so to not be angry at him because how he was acting wasnt who he was. At the same time, I may also be viewing him thru the lens of anxiety and depression, both of which I am currently struggling with, so I dont know if I am viewing him clearly or not. All of this makes me very uncertain as to what reality is.
Adding to this, if I think of him as manipulative, I cant be loving towards him, and if Im not loving towards him a lot of religious childhood fear kicks in (when I was a child I believed disobeying or hurting your parents means you go to hell, at a subconcious level I still believe that i guess, even thou I am not conventionally religious.)
So while I hear your words, it is possible for me to internalize them at times, at other times it isnt because of all the confusion listed above.
with gratitude,
mOctober 18, 2016 at 11:54 am #118433AnonymousGuestDear greenshade:
I understand being confused about reality. I know confusion and it kept me stuck as well. I too did not believe my own experience. I doubted my ability to evaluate reality correctly. It took me over five years of daily healing work to be able to trust my ability to evaluate reality correctly.
Maybe if you lived away from your father, maybe go to effective counseling, over time you will get the clarity you need.
A few points from your last post:
1. “…how he was acting wasnt who he was”- when his behavior toward you was abusive, he was abusive. It is like this: let’s say someone stabs you and you, naturally bleed. It doesn’t matter if the person who stabbed you is sometimes kind, or never stabbed someone else. Or if he is bipolar. Fact is, he stabbed you and you bleed.
2. “disobeying or hurting your parents means you go to hell..” Does a parent who hurts his innocent, loving, trusting child, again and again, goes to hell? If the hell business is supposed to be a matter of justice, what is more unjust than the hurting of the innocent and trusting?
3. ” I may also be viewing him thru the lens of anxiety and depression, both of which I am currently struggling with, so I dont know if I am viewing him clearly or not..”
I think what came first is your father hurting you, no one protected you (being on his side, not on yours). The CONSEQUENCE of that was your anxiety and depression. Not the other way around.
anita
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