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    Hi Murtaza

    I’m sorry to hear that your struggling. I relate to the crushing loneliness that comes through your posts.

    I didn’t think your posts were pointless and want to thank you for challenging me it attempting to communicate my thoughts and experiences.

    Their is a time for all things including a time to be still and stopping the seeking of answers and ‘fixing’ oneself. My personal experience of such a time was to be intentional about it. If I was going to take time away from seeking solutions I also need to stop asking the questions and telling myself my stories.

    Friends would tell me that I needed to fill the space ‘stopping’ created with positive thinking which ticked me off. If I was able to do that I would have been doing that!!!  The pressure to force myself into  this mode of being only amplified the negative story I was telling myself. So I told them thanks but that I would avoid filling the space with any story. I would stop telling myself my stories without replacing them.  If I notice I was in my head and repeating a story I’d stop, take a breath and get back to what I was doing in the the moment.  No story, no questions, no answers… and surprisingly I found I could do that some of the time…. then more of the time….

    Like you I think (sorry if I’m wrong) I’m a head person. Meaning I live most of my life in my head, watching, evaluating, gathering information, and then when I’m sure I tell my self I’ll engage… only there is never enough information and resources to be sure…  and when I do manage to engage I often late and miss the opportunity.  I’ve accepted that it will always be my prime strategy for ‘keeping safe’ but I’m better at noticing when it gets in the way. The strategy is my gift and the thing I must overcome.

    Be well and kind to yourself.


    It sounds to me that you have a mature experience and relationship to what it means to Love.  Hating someone who can’t be the person you want him to be would most likely be the ego demanding it could control what it can’t.

    Its understandable that your disappointed even angry as you mourn the end of a relationship. In my opinion Hate is not necessary to experience disappointment and mourn the end of something that mattered to you not to mention the imagine future that will no longer be.   That said as Elizabeth noted all emotional reactions/responses are valid.  A contemplative practice would be to feel what you feel and allow them to flow.

    The TV show 911 had a story line that dealt with this situation.  I liked how the writers worked through the issue which felt authentic to me. Anger, disappointment,  distance followed by a kind of reconciliation that leads to a extended family. It shows that it could be done when those involved allow what they are feeling to flow and not block them.  In that case the couple involved had children so creating and accepting the situation made sense. The path to accepting involved,  tears, anger and a lot of tough conversations. The key I think was maintaining a safe space to have those conversations.

    I was reminded of a quote by Kierkegaard – “The most painful state of being is remembering the future, particularly the one you’ll never have.”
    I suspect this is where many people get stuck, unable or willing to let go of what they imagined the future might have been… If Only… and that they often hide that disappointment behind a emotion like Hate. So my feeling is that you are in a good place to feel what you feel and move forward. I wish you well.


    Hi Murtaza

    But you don’t doubt this. You “know” with certainty that certainty is not possible,

    I was wrong to question your experience of doubt. My thought was that you had built up a catch 22 self validating loop that your well-developed mode of ‘knowing’, the mind, can’t break you out of.

    I honestly have no idea how to make it happen in real life, at one point i think you said, its not something you choose, from the story it seems that luck/randomness made the sparrow realize, what if he wasn’t lucky enough? What if there is another sparrow that didn’t had this realization?

    When we use a world like ‘choose’ we tend to imagine a clear intention attached to a specific outcome, initiated by a force of will to ‘made it so’ always open to disappointed when it doesn’t turn out exactly as we expect.  Such an experience of choice is a product of mind and for many of life’s choices works just fine.  However it doesn’t work so well when we find ourselves stuck, especially when it was the reasoning mind that got us stuck.

    So difficult to explain… The sparrow after all its striving lays disappointed and depressed on the ground.  In this state of mind/being, it is not capable of noticing the breeze that points to a way out.
    Noticing the breeze is NOT a random act of luck as it requires work. (It will take work to release the mind and allow ‘flow’ – other ways of ‘knowing’ – to ‘speak’, which was always present, just not noticed. – Thus it is said we return home and ‘know’ it for the first time. Such is the realization of all illumination.)

    The unconscious has noticed the breeze long ago but the Minds attachment and self validation to what it ‘knows’ keeps it from “hearing” other experiences of ‘knowing’. Sure From the point of view of mind/ego ‘letting go’ of what it knows can be experienced as giving in to random chance and losing control, its not even sure it has, and so it resists.

    The sparrow could give up, as the number of bones laying around suggest those the came before have done. Instead, the sparrow’s act of well, its choice, is to be still and be quite.

    The self-validating mind has not found the way out and so the sparrow asks it to be still and to wait.
    To do this sparrow notes it feelings of disappointments and depression and detaches. The Sparrow has emotions and experiences but is NOT its emotions and experiences.
    The Sparrow notices the past and how it got to where it is and detaches from that as well (It does not disavow the experiences  but refuses to judge or measure. By not judging a labeling the experiences are noticed and allowed/free to flow).
    As for the imagined future the sparrow has no time for it, yet doing so this is not a detachment from hope or intention. The intention of allowing the future and not grasping is a difficult tension hold.  The art of allowing is not a surrender to random chance or control/intention as ones eyes and ears* are always open. Allowing involves a surrender to attaching and labeling which blocks flow, not a surrender to apathy or indifference.

    Allowing does not ignore the past or feelings but a loosening of their grip so that the Sparrow might empty itself. Its in that space that the ‘heart’ and ‘gut’ can be heard. New information.

    The work of ’emptying’ and ‘allowing’ is far from leaving things to chance and randomness. It involves a full participation.

    *Another riddle. ‘I’ do not see, eyes see. ‘I’ do no hear ears hear


    • This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by Peter.

    I woke up thinking of WORM’s and want to see if I can articulate my thoughts and not make a mess of them.

    In programing WORM’s are pieces of code that are Written Once Read Often.  Its efficient as multiple sub-systems can access the same block of code, saving time, memory, and energy.  WORMs are often embedded deep and not always tested to verify if the output remains relevant as the system grows. Badly coded WORM’s are often self validating.

    Programmers tend to forget and overlook WORMs which are often created early in the development, influenced by others, and before fully understanding how each subsystem using the code are intended to function and interact with the system as a whole. What mattered in the early stages of development is that the WORMs worked and kept the system “Safe” in that moment and time…   with a assumption that the code will continue to keep the system functioning and “safe”

    As you noted Murtaza, such “programs” provided the same input and conditions will always return the same result. Change and choice within such a WORM let alone an experience of control isn’t posable…. Well maybe if you change the inputs to the WORM, someone might argue…  not if the inputs are also defined by the self referencing WORM….  WORM’s within WORM’s, an infant loop infecting memory and performance.

    Under the same conditions the same choices will be made.  Even if you had control over the variables (outer and inner)… under the same conditions and moment in time you could only choose to define them as they were defined, even if the choice was left to be random choice, the result can only be the same.   

    I desire different and then the WORM, created by the mind, answers, different isn’t possible.  Even the desire for different which initiates this loop within the WORM is a hard coded variable built into the system. I do no choose the desire for different, better, change… I am set to desire different, better….

    Such reasoning can’t be disputed. Such a WORM validates itself. – On the question HOW to change the WORM rebuts all suggestions. Such a choices can’t be made by me!

    The stuckness and disappointment of an infinite loop. IF A then B If B then A…. To break out of an infinite loop a new third variable C is required. Note C does not replace A or B but works with A and B to initiate a reaction where together the three create as something new, D. That is the Law of Three.

    How to not to find C: The consciousness that created the WORM can’t fix the WORM. The WORM will always be bind to C.  A new way of knowing and allowing is required to find C.

    There are three kinds of ‘Knowing’: The mind, the heart and the gut.

    The problem above was created by the Mind and so will not be resolved by the Mind. The task is to develop and allow other ways of knowing. Oh, but the WROM screams such a way can’t be my way, the system is set…  Quite worm, be still and wait… (I am not out to destroy you)

    Its true we are born with a leaning to one of the ways of knowing, which in our first few years before “knowing” better can itself be incased into a WORM…. The minds way of knowing is the only why of knowing! screams out the WORM…. Quite worm, be still…..

    A programmer might try to delete the code only to discover its so embedded that removing it creates system failures down the line. An act of will is not going to work.

    Becoming aware of the WORM space could be created to notice how it is affecting the system. Asking: why was this code created, what did it serve? Thankyou for your service. What does it serve now? A path forward to quite the “affects” of the worm. Giving  the permission to allowing a different way of knowing that was always present but hidden behind the certainty of the worm?

    A Riddle 
    We work for that which no work is required.

    The first step in a the exercise of free will is surrender.
    Our head, our heart, our gut already “knows”.


    Hi Murtaza

    For me its like giving up my mind, the most thing i value, the control i think i have.

    Totally get that.

    Like you I desire to have all the info before making a choice

    I have this doubt that makes it impossible to know something for sure, even if i got all the possible info, there would be still some missing info, some gusses, and depending on luck and randomness, i can’t have that, i don’t trust that, i started to feel that whatever choice im gonna make, its gonna be just as disappointing as picking it randomly.

    Lots to unpack here. You have this doubt that it makes it impossible to know with certainty.  But you don’t doubt this. You “know” with certainty that certainty is not possible, some unknows will always be involved in any choice.  You can’t or do not want to accept what you ‘know’  which is getting in the way of you finding a ‘skillful’ way of living with what you know.  One of the things  noted in your comments is that they show no indication of being in doubt. You have no doubt about the present which you tend to project into the future which is going to be “just as disappointing” as if picked randomly = no control = despair.

    The one certainty I have is that ‘We very easily create what we Fear’ more so then what we hope for. I know this because I do it (and observe it) all the time.

    I guess I still have a kind of hope. Hope that the “third force”

    Did it happen yet? Did the third force got any closer? For me i can’t do that, i can relay on hope, it feels like im lying to myself, something i despise.

    That the conciseness of which you experience your problems can’t be the same conciseness that solves it

    But this is the only conciseness i have, “all i know, is what i know”

    I did a horrible job trying to articulate that. Perhaps because its not only ‘mind’ thing, not a thinking thing… I’ll try a story

    A sparrow is trapped in a empty old grain silo. During the day the sun shines through the cracks in the wall and in panic the bird flutters around checking out each ray of light hoping for a why out but the cracks are never big enough. Every night the bird lies exhausted, disappointed, in the dark, depressed. This cycle continues until the bird no longer checks out the rays of light for escape. To depressed to be depressed at rock bottom the sparrow finds itself ’empty’ – stops thinking, dreaming, worrying, even hoping… this emptying is a happening not a something willed for if the sparrow thinks this is not what it wants. In this emptiness , this space, this quietness, the sparrow notices a breeze coming from a small hole in the ground that it had never noticed before. Entering into a dark hole in the ground is the last thing the sparrow would ever had imagined itself doing, one of the reasons perhaps it was not conscious of it before. Terrified the sparrow enters the dark tunnel that goes deep into the ground until it eventually leads upward and into the world.

    The third force and ‘new’ consciousness is the breeze from the dark hole in the ground the sparrow felt and did not come from  the mind in which it was stuck. While the sparrow was franticly fluttering around seeking out ever crack of light for a answer or laying defeated on the ground stuck in its mind/fear it was blind to the experience of the breeze. It is only when the sparrow  detaches from mind, fear, depression, hope even love… that the third happens and the way out becomes conscious.   Not known as the sparrow cannot know what lies within the dark hole. Only that the breeze was fresh air (new level of knowing). The way out is not up but down. The sparrow lived happy ever after… when one day it found it self in a house with no obvious way out…

    The way out (any new level of knowing/consciousness) is not up but down.  Letting go (emptying) of the thinking (mind) that keeps you stuck which I know is terrifying.





    Your mention of wishing you could rewind time reminded me of a new TV show – Ordinary Joe – about a guy who wonders what would have happened had he made a different choice at his graduation. The choice was a minor one, who to celebrate with, but it turns out one that creates three very different time lines. Actually Joe is the kind of Guy that panic’s when a choices is required and seems to prefer when others or situations makes the choice for him.  Of the three paths the show explores, all of them have their problems and missed opportunities.

    Also reminded me of a Book THE MIDNIGHT LIBRARY by Matt Haig
    Its about a woman who life has been full of misery and regret. She feels she has let everyone down, including herself and decides its time to end things. Between Life and Death she finds herself in the Midnight Library  where she gets to sample every timeline that every choice might have created, she gets to undo every one of her regrets and work out her perfect life…



    I just saw your question to TeaK

    I think what TeaK was suggesting is similar to what I am getting at in the above.  That the conciseness of which you experience your problems can’t be the same conciseness that solves it.  You have been so consistent in your thinking and responses that its its become part of the issue that needs to be addressed. In one this ability to be so consistent is a strength and at the same time a weakness that gets in the way.

    As you ask the question and frustration becomes How?

    Everything I have read in the last few years points to the answer involving the Zen concept of doing by not doing, the act of will which evolves the letting go of ‘will’, synchronicity (participating in ‘creation’ by entering into the flow vice going against it)… we work for that which no work is required….
    This is not Passive but a Active engagement that does not ‘hold on’, that lets go of “itself”, its outcomes….creating space…

    Every wisdom tradition suggesting that a ‘new level of conciseness’ is possible (may even be Life’s goal) and that the way involves a ability’s  of allowing the happening. (getting out of our own way).  Thus the ego work – ego conciseness is limited, liner and tends to be binary and not able to solve the issues it creates. It takes a healthy ego to let go of ego and engage (another paradox)… And in the end we return to where we started and ‘know’ it for the first time.



    Hi Murtaza

    Five minutes after posting the bit about what I was working on I wanted to delete it. A attempt to understand my own thoughts, it was a mess and embarrassing.  Been such a weird headspace these last few months.

    I do remember ‘No Country for Old Men’. So many people thought it was such a great movie and I hated it as I found it nihilistic. Giving up to the idea of fate, luck, chance whatever you want to call it is my kryptonite.

    I hated the movie because a part of me feared it reflected a truth and my greatest fear. That accepting that as a truth, I couldn’t see how it couldn’t end in despair. And if that the case I want off the ride…

    The above actually matches my Enneagram type, both its hope and fear. Observation/Investigation and Detachment is my gift but also my weakness. A healthy detachment and engagement can so easily turn into Indifference, apathy and disengagement. (odd how one’s gifts are also one’s curse, the thing to overcome. Batman is partially responsible for the creation of the Joker. You might argue that one does not exist without the other. But that may be binary thinking)

    I also tend to let things happen but then become upset that things haven’t worked out as I think/demand they should have. My challenge is to remain engaged even ‘knowing’ at some level that thigs are and will be as they are and must be. That we are more influenced by things that our outside our control then that we have influence over. (As above so below having more influence then as below so above… still the latter is possible)

    I don’t know Murtaza…. Do I think change is possible?

    I’ve observed others that appear to do it….  Albert Einstein noted that “No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it.” That a binary either or problem  requires a third “force” , a new level of consciousness, to create the new.  I think that is true but is a something that you can’t ‘will’ into being , one can allow it… A act of will which is  a letting go of ones will.  That is scurry which I guess is why most never do it. (The letting go of will is not passive but very much active engagement which feels like a paradox and likely why its so difficult. )

    What are we accepting when we don’t choose… even if an illusion, is still a choice? Another paradox.

    Like you I desire to have all the info before making a choice. Unlike you I don’t feel quilt when, as I almost always, get it wrong and desire a do over.  I do though often feel shame which has me wanting to crawl into my hole and disengage. Shame for being a something that is wrong more then shame for having done something wrong. So many places to trip oneself up.

    What keeps me from crawling into a hole or immerging when I find myself in one…. I guess I still have a kind of hope. Hope that the “third force” (new level of consciousness is possible) might break the stuckness and point to a Fourth Way.

    “A human being is a part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feeling as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.” ― Albert Einstein


    • This reply was modified 1 week, 5 days ago by Peter.

    Hi Murtaza

    Good to hear from you. I never hardboard hard feelings so a apology wasn’t required yet is appreciated. The communication was, as TeaK mentioned, often challenging but I always felt it was coming from a place of someone trying to understand their own thinking and feelings. I often user this form of communication in that way, and our dialog often had me asking if I really believed, felt  and or understood the things I was trying to convey.

    Similar to apathy I struggle with a desire for a healthy detachment and engagement with life against a indifference and  disengagement from life. There are days when I think similar things you expressed in your post and fall into indifference. I tell myself that their is a time for everything and work on not being to hard on myself when I fall into one of those days.

    Not giving advice, just that I’ve been thinking about this problem a lot lately. In trying to deal with my tendency to indifference I’ve been looking into the history of the Enneagram and its connection to the Law of three and Law of Seven, a process of ‘motion’ and creation/re-creation.   Along with that is what I view as a novel take on the problem of duality, ‘problem of opposites’, and ‘oneness’. (Language and ego consciousness tends depend on duality so its difficult to communicate but easy to get stuck in)

    In some teachings there is a idea that dually collapses into oneness where the opposites ‘disappear’ and all is ‘good’.  But I have always found that such a ‘oneness’ has little energy for movement leading easily into indifference and non-engagement.  “Everything this is as it is, as it must be, as it will be”… what’s the point…. might as well disengage, move to a cave and sit quietly avoiding unpleasantries and avoid suffering… except the suffering of aloneness.  Can’t seem to get away from that one, no matter that everything is connected and ‘One’…

    Anyway the take on the problem of duality involves the adding of a third (no duality  but trinary) which then creates a new forth/one/happening. By adding a third to the two a new a  ‘something’ Fourth happens.  The process is not a circle that devours itself but a spiral that projects itself outward into time and space.  When  stuck in the duality of either or the task is to add a third, which working with the two creates the ‘energy’ that allows the ‘forth’ to happen.  A act of will which starts with surrendering ones will (how’s that for a paradox the act of will is letting it go) The fourth is not controlled but a happening.  Their is intention but detached from outcome… The problem is that we tend to be blind to the third ‘force’

    That was a mess… Anyway  – ‘The Complete Enneagram: 27 Paths to Greater Self-Knowledge’ might be a interesting read.  It might not change anything but will keep one distracted… Still if their is a third that can break us out of our either or duality thinking/doings stuckness…. that would be a grail worth finding?

    G.I. Gurdjieff. The “Law of Three” refers to an assertion that every phenomenon is a new arising that comes into being through three distinct lines of action. The first force is affirming, the second force denying, and third force reconciling.

    “Just as it takes three independent strands of hair to make a braid, so it takes three individual lines of force to make a new arising. Until this third force enters, the other two forces remain at impasse. These three lines of action are free of moral judgment and they are neither “good” or “bad”.


    Hi 03

    I think its good to remember the difference between like and love.  I’ve always thought that it was a good thing that the ask was to ‘Love one neighbor as oneself’  and not ‘Like one neighbor as oneself’  as it it always possible to Love someone (or ones pets) in those moments when you don’t like them. (even when Love requires a relationship to end)

    I might argue that it is precisely in those moments of dislike when we lean on Love.

    Liking and disliking will always  ebb and flow while Love is the one thing that can be practiced as a constant.


    Hi DC
    I have to say you have a gift for expressing your self in words.

    I’d like to share a story that I often think about

    Let me tell you one story here, of a samurai warrior, a Japanese warrior, who had the duty to avenge the murder of his overlord. And he actually, after some time, found and cornered the man who had murdered his overlord. And he was about to deal with him with his samurai sword, when this man in the corner, in the passion of terror, spat in his face. And the samurai sheathed the sword and walked away.

    Why did he do that?  Had  the Samurai acted from a place of anger at being spat it would not have been the same as in acting from his sense of ‘duty’ –  his authentic self. For most of us, I think, its easier to take action clinking to the energy generated from ‘being angry’ or better yet ‘being righteous’ in our anger… only such anger tends to burn everyone involved and usually involves ego and a desire for control.   Had the Samurai acted from anger attached to ego the end result for the murder would have been the same but He would have been changed.

    Acting from the core of ones authentic self, the still point, The samurai acts as he must. The samurai leaves the SC not out of anger or disappointment but because it is the correct action for the samurai to take.  That is the impression I get when reading your posts. That you are leaving not out of ego or anger but that in this moment of time that is what the situation calls for.  No other reasons required




    Jackie – So sorry for the struggle you find yourself in. Thank you for sharing as I think many can relate.

    I read the following from Matt Haig today

    A thing my dad said once when we were lost in a forest

    We had gone for a run. About half an hour in, my dad realized the truth. “Oh, it seems that we’re lost.” We walked around and around in circles, trying to find the path, but with no luck. My dad asked men – poachers – for directions and they sent us the wrong way. I could tell my dad was starting to panic, even as he was trying to hide it from me. We had been in the forest for hours now and both knew my mom would be in a state of absolute terror. At school, I had just been told the story of the Israelites who had died in the wilderness and I found it easy to imagine that would be our fate to….

    “If we keep going in a straight line we’ll get out of here”, my dad said

    And he was right. Eventually we heard the sounds of cars and reached a main road. We were eleven miles from the village where we had started off, but at least we had signposts now.

    I often think of that strategy, when I am totally lost – literally or metaphorically. I thought of it when I was in the middle of a breakdown. When I was living in a panic attack punctuated only by depression, when my heart pounded rapidly with fear, when I hardly knew who I was and didn’t know how I could carry on living.  If we keep going in a straight line we’ll get out of here.

    Walking one foot in front of the other, in the same direction, will always get you further than running around in circles. It’s about the determination to keep walking forward – The comfort Book by Matt Haig


    Sorry DC I didn’t mean to imply I was suggesting you continue as a member of the SC. I agreed with Anita on that. Sometimes

    I was talking about the idea of detachment and letting go in general.

    From what I read your authentic self requires you to speak up when you notice wrong doing, while your anxiety and sleepless nights appear to be attached to the outcome of speaking out.  Begs the question is it possible to be act as our authentic self requires us to act and be detached? The middle way would be to detach oneself from the outcomes (good or bad) as you engage (engagement can involve stepping away). Being still within ones actions…

    Not easy… We all have a desire to be ‘seen’ and heard’, which is where healthy boundaries come in and that in this case may require you to step away from the SC and create some space to breath. (Sometimes Love requires a relationship to end)

    In this space you may decide to meditate on why and how you take on the police role? I’m not suggesting that your actions are in anyway ‘in the wrong’ only that its a good way to learn things about oneself. Try to do so with out attaching labels to your thoughts or self on the matter.

    Each role we play has a time and place as well as various methods. Another question you might ask is if their are ways to engage in the these ‘roles’ that are more successful then others? For example when I attempt the police role in the past I became a ‘hammer that saw every situation as a nail’. Worked great on the situation that really were nails not so much on the ones that weren’t.


    Hi DC

    However, perhaps the time has come for me to step back. Should I resign and just “let go” of the situation in the Buddhist way? Am I too attached to this?

    Just wanted to say something about the “Buddhist way” of letting go as I understand it. A unskillful detachment often leads to indifference and a giving up. A skillful detachment is a doing by not doing, action and stillness…  In the situation you describe a setting of healthy boundary might involve a detachment from outcome while engaged in the process, being true to yourself.

    That said I agree with Anita, as in all things their is a time and now might be a time to take a step back and center yourself. Not as a fight or flight reaction to the situation but a middle way.

    There is so much injustice in our world its a challenge to know when take a stand, when to ‘be the policeman’, the ‘social worker’, the’ peacemaker’…  all have their time and place. I feel the most important is that when we act regardless of how (which role we play) we do so from our center, being honest with ourselves regardless of result.



    “I think by the time you’re grown you’re as happy as you’re goin to be. You’ll have good times and bad times, but in the end you’ll be about as happy as you was before. Or as unhappy. I’ve knowed people that just never did get the hang of it.” – No Country for Old Men

    Saw this quote today and thought of this thread. Funny how life works… enough to make you cry

    I hate that movie – No Country for Old Men – It was so depressing and I didn’t want to think their was any truth in it, while a part of me new their was. I didn’t like the truth shoved in my face that way.

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