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Peter

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  • #407028
    Peter
    Participant

    I was wondering why sometimes it happens just like that without any effort, anyone has any experience on how to reach and maintain such a state?

    Ah to be the still point that is also dancing.

    Its a paradox. The moment we ask the question we are out of the moment. The moment we realize were in the experience we are tossed out of it. The moment we try is the moment we fail.

    Their is not try only be. A exercise of Will that is a letting go of Will, a surrender of expectations, desire, thought.

    #407027
    Peter
    Participant

    Question Are we born with a Purpose or do we create our own?

    My 2 cents for what its worth. Yes but its not what you might think.
    Born you are the answer to the question, you are purpose, every breathe you take, every move you make, purpose.

    As Campbell noted Life does not give you meaning or purpose you give meaning to Life

     

    #403558
    Peter
    Participant

    Thanks for sharing your experiences and thoughts Helcat

    #403524
    Peter
    Participant

    Dear Berta

    Which practices you engaged with?

    Before one practices, mountains are mountains and waters are waters; after a first glimpse into the truth, mountains are no longer mountains and waters are no longer waters; after enlightenment, mountains are once again mountains and waters once again waters.

    We are not meant to live on top of mountains. Thus all spiritual experience and practice must incorporate the return. The return to Life as it is. In my opinion that is something most traditions don’t do well. My Experience with Buddhism is that the challenge of the return involves the practice of detachment. Healthy detachment, healthy boundaries where one accepts things as they all while remaining fully engaged in life .

    From your post it sounds like you have fallen into the trap of Indifference.  Its a fine line between detachment and Indifference. One of my observations with the Buddhist practice is it often involves a loss of energy to engage. The unskillful detachment from ego, goals, relationships, identity, hope… leading to indifference. If I am not my ego, my experiences, my emotions, my memory why engage, what’s the point = loss of energy.

    Sitting by a calm lake in meditation and or contemplation nothing touches us and we think what bliss. Then life interrupts, we need to eat, relive ourselves, work, the stuff of life, everything touches us. The goal of the practice is to take the experience of the lake with us as we engage fully in the stuff.

    We return from the mountain/lake and see for the first time. Nothing has changed, everything has changed.

    #402984
    Peter
    Participant

    I appreciated your thoughts and humor, Tommy.

    I’ve often wondered about why the Buddha is most often shown as laughing and I think one of the reasons is that when you laugh you are letting go, letting flow. Thus one may have experienced laughing so hard you peed yourself, a little.  🙂

    #402945
    Peter
    Participant

     I have smacked myself many times but I only get dizzy.

    🙂 that sounds like Zen to me. Begs the question what is enlightenment and how we would notice when a moment of enlightenment was achieved?

    My observation is that its kind of like happiness the moment one thinks… ah their it is I have it… it disappears.  Enlightenment like trying to grasp and hold on to air with ones hands. The problematic word in that sentence being ‘grasp’ as it tends to be attached to the word ‘I’. In Zen thier is no I so no-thing to do the grasping.

    When I picture the stone being thrown at the student (or slap) in that moment thier is the stone and body labeled student. The body spontaneously ducks. No thoughts like… Why did master throw the stone, The stone is a illusion, the body is a illusion, what does this mean, why, why me, not fair, vengeance, anger, fear… If such thoughts did arise the student is going to get hit and its going to hurt.

    The body/mind/spirit, labeled student, “knows” this and engaging fully in the moment as it is  moves. The rock flies past. A moment of enlightenment. A moment not measurement in time or space and so infinite -“Some infinities are bigger than other infinities” 🙂 (The Body and rock are not illusions the  ‘student’ is)

    In Zen a act of Free Will is the act of letting Will go, (In my opinion the only act of free will possible) , Doing by not doing. A state of being where one is fully Engaged in Life as it is and at the same moment fully Detached.  I’m reminded of those infomercials selling the some slow cooker or something. ‘Set it and Forget it.

    My experience of Zen is that it seems to be a practice intended to ‘break’ the mind. Break the habitual thinking, thoughts, memory’s that we believe/feel is a I. One returns from where one started and ‘sees’ it for the first time (the mountain becomes a mountain)  We work for that which no work is required (doing by not doing) “You” are/were always buddha

    Thanks for humoring me letting me play 🙂

    #402869
    Peter
    Participant

    I think your answers were pretty good and your experience with Zen Koan’s seems to be on point. You arrive where you start 🙂

    Koan’s…  one master answers yes the other no and both are correct and wrong… has lead to made many a Student suffering. Perhaps that is the point or intent as it is the tension between seeming opposites that leads to consciousness as Koan’s push/pull a student to transcend duality/thought… begging the question if one transcends duality is one still conscious??? Yes… No… Mu 🙂

    I read a story about a student that asked a master ‘What is Zen’ the Master throws a stone at the student, and the student spontaneously ducks and and awakens.

    LOL I forgot my point…. their is a reason the buddha is always laughing

    #401346
    Peter
    Participant

    Hi Leaagain

    How did you overcome learned traits from childhood trauma?

    By making them conscious and realizing at a deep level that you are not your memories, you are not your past – you have memories, you have a past.  By making them conscious, perhaps with help from a therapist you take ownership of what belongs to you and what doesn’t. The aim is to develop healthy boundaries that being healthy will aid in the developing or relationships with your self and others.

    Relationships are crucibles in which we discover ourselves. You don’t need to be in relationship to discover yourselves but nothing like a relationship to push/pull a person into the process.

    A purpose of relationship is to heal the past. What I mean is that in relationship your ‘ghosts’ of the past are going to come out to play with your friend and or partners ‘ghosts’ . Thus that need to be conscious of them, shine a light on them. Healthy boundaries will help work through those times when a person in relationship is triggered by the past. A healthy relationship can be the best place to coming to terms with our past hurts, shadow, and projections (Projections, shadows, hurts… usually all mixed up together)

    Do you risk relationship, is it worth it?

    That is something only you can answer. As humans we are really good at justifying the answer to such questions. However I might argue that if your answer is all justifications  your probably not being honest with what you really want. (Justifications tend not to make healthy boundaries as the tend to lock away all possibility. )

    My advice for what its worth. Be Brave, do the work in coming to terms with your past/memory (you are not your memories) know your boundaries and see what might show up.

    Its said Only Love can break a heart. That I believe is a truth if a ironic one.
    Yet a broken heart is a open heart and oh what that might a open heart experience.  Scary I know… but scary can be fun?

    #400853
    Peter
    Participant

    Hi Helcat

    I grew up in a religious cult while being abused so for a long time I was angry at God. I blamed him for the bad things that happened. I prayed for him to save me and I thought he didn’t answer

    I hope I didn’t trigger past hurts with my use of the word G_d

    I grew up in a very religious community as well thought not a cult. My early experience of  God was as a ‘being’ constantly judging the bad and the good. Follow the rules = good, disobey = bad.  Most prayer was of the petition type — Please help me, let this happen, don’t let that happen… Of course such a God answered all prayers just mostly with the silence of a No.  Growing up I believe everything about me was wrong – life was not happening as I prayed it would therefore I was being punished which meant I was bad and not following the rules as I ought, even if it thought I was.

    Yeah fun times.

    Early on we talked about how in one journey always seems to be a returning home to see it for the first time.  I know that to be true. No matter how far I tried to leave those early years behind they always showed up and so I had to come to terms with my experience. Just hearing the word could send me into depression and I found I was interpreting any new spiritual language through my language of birth. Thus I cannot avoid the word God

    Even though I got to a place where God was no longer like Santa Clause rewarding the good and punishing the bad  I wasn’t able to throw away the word God. I needed a more skillful way to relate to it.

    You might notice that I often type the word God as G_d the intent being to indicate that the word is as a symbol that points past to self to a something, a experience, that is no-thing and at the same all-things.  G_d is also the experience of connection to everything – the drop in the ocean that at the same time contains the ocean.   It is the experience when language drops away,  when duality drops away (language like ego consciousness is dualistic by nature) and we are, G_d is, that stillness that is dancing…. ( Ohm – the sound of every word spoken and will be spoken, all-things – no-thing… have you noticed the silence that from which Ohm ends and starts….)

    What am I saying… I had to let go of my pavlovian reaction to the word God in order to begging to embrace what I was learning and so heal the past. If at the at the end of all our exploring we arrive where we started… it was work that needed to be done.

    Today even my relationship to prayer has changed. I prefer silent prayer, centering prayer…kind of like meditation/contemplation.. (No supernatural Being and pleading involved). Even the Lords Prayer has changed for me. Experienced as symbolic language its a prayer about centering oneself for the day. As above so below – G_ds will be done, As below so above – we are forgiven as we forgive (We are bigger then big and smaller then small, we are influenced by forces beyond our reckoning and we also influence – we participate in Life. Who we are matters) Thus we ask only for our daily needs and return to silence.

    I hope if haven’t confused the matter more. The above the long winded way of me explaining that when I use a word like God I do not intent it as you experienced it growing up.

    #400348
    Peter
    Participant

    @Helcat
    I’ve never tried marijuana but read a pit on the therapeutic potential of some psychedelics under controlled conditions. but not sure I’m brave enough.  My experience with time is that at a subjective and dream level the past, present and future occur together in the same moment. While our objective experience of time is linear. As you say the mind – ego consciousness – needs to make sense of what happens.

    I feel the same way. You can be hurt, angry and still love.

    Interesting as I’ve been  thinking about this a lot lately.  When someone says God is Love what are they saying? to be it begs the question what is Love – if G_d is mystery and unknowing what does such a statement say about our expectation of Love. I suspect when people use the word love they only associate the positive feelings and experiences with the word. How can a negative experience be love?

    My thoughts for what they are worth.
    I’m going to disagree and say Love, at its highest level IS, and as such beyond conditions – G_d is Love – Life is Love – all of IT  the joys, wonders and horrors is Love.  Love at such a level is beyond language and dualist thinking (problem of opposites) Perhaps only Buddhas and Saints 🙂

    At the personal level when people hear unconditional love I wonder if they are thinking unconditional allowing which is not love.

    Love as experienced unconditionally involves having healthy boundaries. A paradox, or perhaps not. To be loved by another to be seen, to be heard, to matter who we are, what we do , what we say must matter and that requires boundaries of accountability, responsibility which create experiences of meaning, purpose…

    The experience of being loved and loving has conditions, boundaries. While LOVE is unconditional. One can, as you noted, Love while, angry, disappointed, hurt, fearful, happy, joyful… and even when, especially when,  holding others and oneself accountable.

    I wonder if that makes sense. words can be so troublesome.

    #400018
    Peter
    Participant

    Hi Helcat

    Enjoying your thoughts

    Now I wonder if that is true. I have had my own thoughts over the years and seen how people are linked and shape each other.

    I’ve been playing with this thought as well. In some of the resent reading their is a suggestion that its not only the people we meet that we are linked to but at some level it is everyone.  A step further that at a cellular / atomic level we are linked to everything from the beginning. We are both the drop in the ocean and at the same time the ocean

    All of this linked to the notion of Karma as a natural reality. Karma not the  misunderstood as justice or  having to do with reward and punishment. The idea is that Karma are the lenses through which we see the world. (we see the world as we are not as it is). From that perspective Karma and memory, cellular memory to mental memories, conscious and unconscious are interconnected. The suggestion was that Karma is ‘memory’ which is a interesting thought.

    The past is memory and the future ‘imagination memory’ the goal then would be to create space from the past and future (memory – karma) and be spontaneously engaged in the present avoiding the creation of unskillful karma. In this way I guess we clean our lens

    Anyway I forgot my point. My thought was that the two notions – being connected to everything and Karma, how that is experienced is connected.

    #399571
    Peter
    Participant

    I guess, the truth in that text is that what we need is within us all along.

    Reminded me of Paulo Coelho story the Alchemist and T.S. Eliot’s “We shall not cease from exploration. And the end of all our exploring, Will be to arrive where we started, And know the place for the first time.” Ones treasure was always within, just not noticed.
    We work to get to a place where we might notice the jewel that was always present as we journey, our work does not create it, it was always ours. (that might not be the intended teaching of the parable but that’s the beauty of parables)

    Thanks for sharing

     

    #399515
    Peter
    Participant

    I’ve enjoyed following the conversation.

    “He knows the way through the desert and many people follow him. But they get tired following”

    When Gautama becomes Buddha and returns he recognizes his task is to teach what cannot be taught. I think he knew we tend to mistake the path and teachings as the destination. Meditation by a still lake, so wonderful who would not want to stay but meditation is not the destination. The teaching is not the destination.

    In Christianity I often wonder how many worship a book as being G_d. The words as the destination. But I do not find that a moment of rest though it may be a necessary part of the journey. As goes the saying one must lose God to find G_d.  Similar I think to “If you meet the Buddha, kill him.”

    Dancing is a great teacher. When learning to dance your are not dancing, that ok learning is necessary. Dancing happens when you get to forget what you leaned and Dance. What you learned will be their if you trust the body, ears… the body always new how to dance. The mind only necessary to notice the moment.  But the mind will want to step in, judge it. the mind is too slow to dance. So easy to mistake the studio, the community the classes, the learning as the destination.

    Next time you are meditating and stressed watch parts are you are not relaxed, where does your stress rest on your body? Where is your mind, where is your breath. There is no judgment,  just noticing, the mind quiets or it doesn’t, you are not your mind.

    Being relaxed when Meditating is great Meditating while not relaxed is better. 🙂

    #399060
    Peter
    Participant

    @Helcat

    I very much apricate your thoughts and sharing of experiences. I find it helpful to hear how others think about such matters. These teachings and experiences are not the easiest to communicate let alone practice.

    I think at my best day I may manage 1% 🙂

    As a young man I was really interested in the Norse myths. Something that stuck with me was the Odin had two ravens that would perch on his shoulders. The ravens were named Huginn (Thought) and Muninn (Memory). The ravens would gather information for Odin who then used the information to shape the world. The Ravens where also know to be speakers for the dead and Oden the Raven god.  In many cultures the Raven regarded as a trickster and co-creators of the world.

    Thought and Memory, tricksters and creators of our experience of our worlds. In that context we are like Odin a ‘god’ of our creation.

    Interesting how if you look close enough through the stories we tell, regardless of culture, that the hints to ‘enlightenment‘ and or ‘to see and  experience the world as it is’ are present. The Buddha laughs as ravens enjoy their tricks to get us to see.

    #398995
    Peter
    Participant

    A friend of mine had a experience/vision in which she felt connected to every thing. She described it as being very vivid, colorful… and being loved, of being Love.  She didn’t use the words enlightened.  She told me that as time passed she fell into depression. How to return and hold on to such a experience. She  suspected part of the problem was the holding on which was really a desire to remain. The view from the top of a mountain is wonderful but the oxygen is thin. We aren’t intended to live onto a mountain.

    I had a experience equally vivid but not colorful as my experience was complete darkness/emptiness. A emptiness in which there was no fear, no anxiety, a awareness of everything which was no-thing. Perhaps pure consciousness. Like my friend everything/no-thing connected….

    And then I thought “I”.

    Their is a scene in the Matrix where Neo  enters the void of the matrix (here the void was white) and rows of clothes and weapons appear. The racks coming from nowhere and whizzing by Neo only stopping when he selects a item until he is fully dressed. Once dressed he enters the ‘world of the matrix’

    That was what it was like the moment I thought “I” a peace of “clothing” (memory of identity) thrust onto me, forming me and pushed me from the void into the “waking”  world.

    With the thought of “I” I remember thinking Nooooooo!!!! as I left the bliss of emptiness and experience of everything, clothing myself in my fears, hopes, anxiety… memory of I.

    My memory forming my physical and mental bodies and pulling/pushing me into, I will use the words “waken world”.  Oh how I wanted to longed to go back, longed for home, but life is experienced in the matrix and I was formed to experience it.

    I didn’t fall into depression… or maybe I have at times. No experience as been more vivid to my mind

    The moment I think “I”…. I wonder if the clothes (and weapons) were chosen by me or for me?

    The moment I thought “I”, I thought Noooo… what if I would have thought Yes?

     

     

    • This reply was modified 5 months ago by Peter.
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