Hi Tee,

Also, you can say No to yourself. Is it in situations where you would want to indulge in things that you know are not good for you? Or in situations where your automatic reaction would be to freeze? But now you know better and you choose a more mature response, which is aligned with your true self?

I wrote it like these to things are connected but they are not. I think what I meant was that some parts are actually not me, they are someone else. This part’s I send away. These parts often also make me doubt my own boundaries and needs.

Ah, she understands that you don’t want to be bossed around, but she can’t help but lash out from time to time, right?

Yes, she she’s it but can’t change it.

Alright, so when you are in freeze, you are kind of depressed, doing nothing, perhaps using drugs to numb the pain?

Drugs don’t work for me. I have not tried psychedelics maybe they could. Conventional drugs do not really help. Listening to music helps it kinda makes the pain more enjoyable. Eating also doesn’t work anymore to cope. To cope creates confusion and clarity I have no space for that in my mind.

And then when you get out of freeze, you try to achieve some of your own goals, but you feel like your mother is trying to tell you what to do and what to achieve, so it feels like she is trying to control you?

Yes, it’s like a port of her in me. I want that part to go away.

That would be in line with what you’ve said that you want to stay independent of her, and that refusing to clean the kitchen (i.e. refusing to obey her orders) is a way of maintaining that psychological independence. So perhaps staying in freeze is also a way to stay psychologically independent from her – because you are withdrawn in your own shell and unreachable to her, and so she cannot control you?

I think I do freeze because I need to suppress my boundaries to be able to please someone which does not respect them.

You said that right now you are in the space where you are able to say No to other people’s requests, if they don’t align with your true needs. Do you think that with this new mindset, you’ll be able to participate in your father’s birthday party? Because earlier you said that you most probably won’t be able to go (My dad turns 60 and throws a big party I made shure I have time and I really want to go but right know it feels like I can’t go). Perhaps this has changed now?

My body is very clear about that. It feels like no way. I tried to start a process with my dad but I think he lacks the empathy and curiosity to make me feel save. So I could open up and we could find a way which I can attend.
I think the main thing is that my mum said:” I don’t even know if you attend at the birthday”. From that point on it shifted and it feels too dangerous to risk my integrity. I feel it’s unfair to my dad cause he got in between also I do not know anyone else who could help, my mom has no close friends. I could call her psychiatrist.
Also I can accept how it is right now, it might be necessary for my mental health to split very clear for  me to fully let go.

Hi Tee,

Has your mother (or father) ever told you that you are making a big deal out of nothing and that you surely cannot be as hurt as you are claiming to be? Have they tried to deny your experience and tell you that you are too sensitive and/or faking being hurt?

I think what I learned is that I do this by intention. That’s probably why I feel guilty.

Anyway, now you are an adult, and you’ll have to create that anchor, i.e. that strong “mother”, within yourself. You shouldn’t wait for your mother to change and become the source of that strength and support – you need to create it in yourself.

I want to give that to me and I don’t know how. I wanna take responsibility. All I can give is to give space to me and it seem I can’t get enough of it and have no control except that it always works out somehow. My dad turns 60 and throws a big party I made shure I have time  and I really want to go but right know it feels like I can’t go. Now I’m creating space for that.

Give yourself encouragement, or seek encouragement (for the things you’d like to achieve) outside of your parents. You can seek it in coaches, therapists, support groups, people who are already doing what you want to do. You need to find an anchor elsewhere and stop expecting her to give you that strength and courage (or whatever quality you feel you are missing).

I’m not expecting that conscious. I think my parents have not much capacity to care for me or they expect me to ask which I don’t do. I think about seeking help and sometimes I did as when I did this post. It takes long and at least I talk to people that I do not have  many impulses to seek help.r I’d need an online therapist and I somehow need to create space for that person and do not know how. I mean you are supporting me in that way out of goodwill <3

It seems that when you tell her your pain, you are still hoping that she would be able to relieve it. But she isn’t. She can’t give you the strength/support/encouragement you are hoping for. So your every encounter is painful because you are seeking something she cannot give you. She is burdening you with her own pain, instead of relieving you of your pain. It’s like adding insult to injury.

Mhh, I wonder if I do belief that subconscious. I think it’s also working with her is like working with me cause I kinda treat myself like she treated me but the last time was too painful and now I need to stay away. I don’t know how long.

That’s why it seems to me you’d need to stop hoping to have your emotional needs met by her. You’d need to start finding ways to meet your own needs and seeking people who can help you in that endeavor. Become emotionally “unhooked” from your mother, so to speak.

It’s good to hear. I need to hear this. It takes so long if I tell something to me. I need have people say things to me. I work on meeting my needs. I belief I need something like a family to be able to do a regular job and live at a place for longer than 1 month.
The things I tried feel failed and I’m afraid if I fail again now it’s too painful.

It seems she doesn’t like it when you don’t show empathy for her. If you are cold and distant. If you don’t let her complain about her problems, right? She doesn’t like your protective shell. And you don’t want to get out of that shell, because it would hurt you even more (what I said earlier: her pain is added onto your own pain, and it is too much to bear).

She needs the connection. She probably feels like there’s something wrong with her when people block. Like I do.  Yes, I need to protect me.

It seems you withdraw into your protective shell, so not to be overwhelmed by too much pain (both hers and yours). And maybe also not to lose focus from yourself, because if you start focusing on her and her problems, you tend to lose yourself, or forget what you want, or start feeling guilty for wanting those things? Perhaps you fear getting enmeshed with her, so you are hiding in that shell, to keep your own space and identity intact.

Mhh, yeah I would. I’m at a point where it is too painful to withdraw from pain. Which is good and also scary.

Ok, so you try to negotiate with her to give you tasks where you won’t feel misused? (because you said you’re only willing to help her if you feel that her requirement is “selfless”). She doesn’t like your conditions and she gives you a strict/angry look (you called it a “fierce” look).

Yes or in your words: ‘a task where I do not freeze’! I’d like to find a way to show her that she can meet her need for support and I can meet my need for autonomy.

Maybe she feels you are too demanding (or lazy/unhelpful), and not her? And that her requirement/plea for help is justified? While you are unjustly accusing her? (As if she’s made responsible for something which is my fault.)

I think she beliefs it’s my duty as her child to support her. Yeah, you say the same thing. It’s most difficult do give to people who think it’s their born right to receive and take it for granted.

It does seem to me that your attitude towards helping her is a defensive stance – you withdrawing into your protective shell and not wanting to be “used” by her, for fear of getting emotionally overwhelmed and overtaken by her. I think it’s a bit of an overreaction, but I understand where you are coming from. You don’t want to give anything of yourself, because you feel so burdened already, that any additional pain of hers (and an expectation to be soothed by you) comes with a risk to overwhelm you. So when she needs help, even if it is as simple as cleaning up the kitchen – you feel it might deplete you even further and take you away from yourself and your own needs and desires.

I think I want her to really see me and see me equal. I have the same right to choose the task as she does. It’s not really about the task it’s about control and me making a statement that I do not wish to be controlled. I want to be asked what I would like to do and what is needed. I want my support to be valued and not taken for granted.

So refusing to help in the kitchen becomes like a self-protection tool, albeit a misguided one, because if I am guessing right, you are still hoping to have your emotional needs met by her. So you are still kind of dependent on her, even if you are trying to protect yourself from her…

I’ll reflect about it. Isn’t it also about the people pleaser thing why I do that in the end? I’ve been thinking that I am dependent on her (subconscious). Cause I noticed that the things which stress her out like go traveling, working a regular job, not misusing drugs, having a girlfriend are things I struggle(d) creating for myself.
It sometimes feels like that I am my mom and my self is this thing I can’t control. And all I wish is that I would not need to care about myself. It would just do what it is supposed to do.

I said it’s an overreaction. But if it is a freeze response (“I draw a line. My body draws a line”), it’s not conscious – it is what your body and your nervous system do automatically. When you are in the freeze response, your rational mind isn’t “online”, so you cannot really control your reactions. So I just wanted to clarify that, because I don’t want to sound as if I am blaming you for being overly reactive. The freeze response is not your fault – it’s an automatic reaction when we feel in danger.

Thank’s for clarifying Tee.

There are techniques to get out of the freeze response, which include moving our body. I am sure you have looked into it already, but here are 3 really useful youtube videos, by psychotherapists that I respect a lot:

“This is what it’s like to be in freeze” and “Unfreeze yourself“, by The Holistic Psychologist channel, and

“Are you stuck in freeze mode? How to turn off the freeze response“, by Therapy in a Nutshell.

Mhh, sounds like I’m quite often in a freeze response or I feel what I can do without getting into a freeze response and only do that.

I hope it helps, if you’re not already familiar with it.

I’ll download the books.

Thanks Tee,

feel free to shorten the text. I been quite emotional today I think I wrote things reasonable but feel free to question and ask and also I want you to know that I do not expect a reply and feel grateful if you do a reply.

Hi dear Tee,

I’m happy too, to hear from you 🙂

Really happy to hear this! That means you don’t even feel it for the most part, right? Are you still skating? And yeah, better not try full-time construction job, because that would for sure aggravate it.

Yeah, still skating and I’ve done some hours of construction work.

My back is a little better too, thank God. But now my knee problem got reactivated, after having been dormant for 1.5 years (since my back injury). I hope it stays manageable and doesn’t escalate, specially now, before the summer holidays.

Let’s hope for the best. True holiday’s coming. What do you have planned?

It felt emotionally distant, right? As if it didn’t affect you?

You know when adult’s say to kids that they are simulating? Like that. It feels distant, it does affect me cause of the self betrayal.

But then, as you were writing your reply, you had an encounter with your mother, and then you felt it emotionally?

I saw it very clear, the ambivalence between being my mum’s child and in a way father.

Am I guessing this right?

Yes, subconsciously it makes it hard to do things in live I want to do.

Can you give me an example of something you’d like to express to her, but you worry that she will worry and will try to talk you out of it? (and thus control you)?

Mhh, since the last encounter I don’t wanna express anything to her. I would like to express myself. Affection, a hug.

Can you give me an example of a request she makes on you, which you deem as not selfless, and then you can’t do it?

It’s simple things in the household clean the kitchen. Mostly it is support.

Thanks for asking.

Hi Tee,

How is your back?

So far you haven’t talked about your father too much. How was he involved? Was he the one who sent you to your room when you were misbehaving?

Yeah, in my Memory yes. Mhh, my Dad was in Hospital as a child for one week and his mom couldn’t see him. I think that created some kind of void and he needs my mom and his job for it and my mom needs my dad. I think it’s about counterwil that when your personality is loose in a sense of a people pleaser can bend himself to please you maybe cope with someone solid to orient yourself.

My Dad is really good at making material presents. He can’t really say how he feels. Lately he said he was depressed for a decade in his 40ies. He would just say he’s alright all the time. My mom would always want to know how our day was or his day at work and we did not really wanna answer. It didn’t feel right. It was/is often a too open a question and doesn’t feel save to reply. It’s in someway food for something unwholesome. When you don’t listen but project yourself on the reply it can be painful to the replier.

My father was a people pleaser and basically, my mother’s enabler. He himself hasn’t abused me, but he didn’t do much to protect me from her criticism and harsh treatment. And he always tried to appease her, so to maintain the “peace” in the family.

Like he enabled by letting it happen? Appease mens to pretend everything is alright even if it isn’t?

I never had prejudice against men, though I didn’t like men who resembled (physically) to my father.

Luckily, I found a good husband and we have been happily married for many years now, although we did have our ups and downs. But our relationship grew and got stronger over time. So I am pretty happy with that aspect of my life.

Feels good to hear!

Interesting. So when imagining it, you feel good about it in the moment, but then you feel that you sort of “ticked the box” and you actually let go of that dream?

Yeah, it seems to be some way of coping with something.

You don’t engage it any more?

Yeah, I’m kinda over it. I learned the past year that if it happens I need to let go of it.

So sometimes you try to imagine your future, but you feel without perspective? Does it mean that nothing comes up that would excite you as your possible future?

When I say future here I mean the present future. I think it could be called black out. When you wanna meet a need but you do not know any strategy. No person you could meet. There is not much exciting then. I don’t enjoi it much but actually I’m present then and the mind is calm.

It seems that sometimes there is a certain burden and heaviness when you try to envision your future. It feels easier not to envision anything, but to only focus on the present moment, because staying in the now feels peaceful and grounded. Is that what you’re saying?

Yes, it seems to be wholesome to envision but it actually often isn’t.

What do you consider to be your higher needs?

If there is no external motivation I do it for myself.

Hi Tee,

I was impluseless lately. I’m rather being than doing.

In what sense were you intense?

I’m not shure, I have to ask her. I imagine needing a lot of attention.

Well, I always tried to console my mother, i.e. explain why she shouldn’t be so negative, why things are not so bad as she sees them (and I never succeeded). But that was already when I was an adolescent and in my early 20s. As a child, I wanted approval, I was a good kid, a good pupil. But I never got approval, e.g. I was never praised for my good grades. Instead, I was scolded if I got a B instead of an A. So I was supposed to be perfect.

I hear that you got the information when there was something to improve at school. Your parents did not let you know that and in your twenties you confronted your parents and you didn’t find a way to show them that there are different ways to look at situations.

Do you remember at least something from your childhood? Do you remember more from your teenage years?

The answer to the question is dependent on what I expect to remember. Like when I think at my childhood I get maybe straight away 2-3 situations. In 4 Minutes I get like 8 situations, I remember. I remember more from my teenage years. How much do you remember?

Okay, so when you feel vulnerable, you don’t have the compulsion to please her, to “console” her, to make her less sad, right? Because I am guessing (based on what you said about her earlier) that she tends to complain a lot and would like to receive sympathy from you. And she would “get high” on it, i.e. it would only confirm her martyr stance, right? But you don’t want to take part in that game of her playing the martyr, and so you are cold with her. You are not giving her sympathy, right?

Mhh, I think she did not complain to me in a direct way. It would rather be that it’s kinda dependent if the kitchen is in order and that I needed to do what she said else she could loose it. Like she needs an illusion of control. I just had a similar situation with her lately. Where she would say I need to do something right now! And I couldn’t do it. I’d just sat and looked at her. I’d have needed to hear her feelings to understand why it was so important and needed to be done right now. I did not understand. She said sorry after and I told her that in a case of emergency I need more information. I can’t take it if it’s being pushed around.

When you say that as a child you were strong for her, maybe it means that you didn’t want to express your own sadness or upset, not to bother her with it? Because she was burdened with her own stuff anyway. Maybe that’s when you rather smashed the window, or hit your own head, or got in tension with your younger brother?

Mhh, I eventually did express feeling hopeless. I was struggling at School. I was sent in my room for something when I smashed the window. Or I remember breaking some expensive things I got as a present.

So she wasn’t able to meet your emotional needs, and then you suppressed those needs in front of her, but then acted out in different ways, like smashing the window, having tension with your brother and suchlike. Is that what happened?

Mhh, maybe suppressed or I think I rather played a similar game. My dad and brother are more black and white and colder.

It’s a different level. Being kind to a stranger in the park is not the same as opening up to someone in all your vulnerability. In that sense it is “superficial”. But it is serving a purpose of you being true to yourself and doing acts of kindness – something that your heart is telling you to do. As you say, it’s honest and authentic. So it counts. But it’s a different level, of course.

Thanks for the word <3

Yes, it seems they couldn’t provide that emotional support for you. Perhaps they weren’t abusive (e.g. criticizing you harshly, or shaming you and humiliating you), but they simply didn’t pay attention to your emotional needs. So yeah, it would be emotional neglect.

Yes and they didn’t know how they feel themselves.

What do you think about daydreaming or imagine future situations, feelings are often included?

<p dir=”ltr”>Hi Tee,</p>

<p dir=”ltr”>I wonder if you, as a child, felt guilty for playing and simply having fun and being care-free, because your mother was always unhappy and sad, in the martyr mode? And so you felt guilty if you were happy and enjoying yourself?
And perhaps you rather did what was expected of you? Actually, now I’ve taken a look at you earlier posts: you said that you didn’t do what was expected of you, but would rather freeze or engage in a self-destructive behavior:</p>

<p dir=”ltr”>
I think I was strong for my mom. My mom tells me that I was really intense. I think you had a simillar struggle if I remember right.
I also don’t remember super much. It’s hard to differentiate between analyzis and expirience.
I have some memories of self destructive behavior. Where I destroy things I like or a window or hit myself on the head to find some exit for how I feel. Or me and my younger brother having tension.
Mhh, I notice that I’m cold to my mom when I feel vulnerable like I do not send emojis then. I don’t trust that she can handle it then. Like she would get high on it. There are pictures of me expiriencing myself. You know what Gabor sais, it’s what’s not there. Empathy and the ability to express how you feel, really listen with the heart. I do not remember my parents doing that. Telling me how they feel or having these moments of connection much. Even nowadays it’s difficult and often I create it. I meet people who tell their parents are like their best friend and that’s how I imagine is how it can feel when you can express yourself both ways.</p>

<p dir=”ltr”>That’s nice. You did say in the beginning of your thread that you would like to have a deeper connection with people (“Right know I belief that what I actually want is deep connection with people.”). So it seems you are doing that now, offering your selfless, pure love (in form of kindness and help to a stranger), and that’s how you are expressing what you couldn’t as a child, i.e. what was not appreciated by your mother (or both parents?)</p>

<p dir=”ltr”>
Mhh, yeah I do that and it seems to be wholesome. I still think the mentioned situation is in a way superfiscial but honest and authentic. It often feels not deep enough.</p>
<p dir=”ltr”>I feel that I long for a partner.</p>
<p dir=”ltr”>I think love couldn’t be received emotionally by my parents as much as I needed it or was toxic when given.</p>

<p dir=”ltr”>Yeah, it seems expressing your true self, your compassionate and loving self, is your priority at the moment. Also, expressing yourself perhaps in play (e.g. skate-boarding), or doing other activities that bring you joy, instead of getting stuck in the usual freeze response, which actually blocks your joyful self-expression.</p>

<p dir=”ltr”>
Yeah, that’s what I want most in live. So, simple. Thanks for the support Tee ,<3</p>

Hi Tee,

Oh… so you’re usually sick once a month with similar symptoms? But now it’s been lasting for 3 weeks, with symptoms ranging from exhaustion, feeling cold, feeling stiff, headaches etc. Sorry about that :/

Could be that your immune system is out of whack. Have you seen a doctor, or you already know this state, so it’s not something to seek help for?

Propably and Immunesystem whack, I’m finally getting better!

Actually I’ve been examining myself, and it could be psycho-somatic (I always seek possible mental causes of physical symptoms). So I kind of know what might be causing it.

So yeah, you’re right, it’s probably not physical worsening (hopefully!), but more like a signal of something that I am not doing right in my life, a signal of a limitation of mine. And now it’s time to start addressing it.

Haha, I do the same with the physical symptoms. Sounds like you’re confident and hands on about this!

Since then I’ve realized that I am worthy just because I exist, simply by having been born, and I don’t need to do anything to prove my worth.

Juhuu, feels good to read that. Reminds me at Gabor Maté I heard him say last week. Asking yourself if you’re good enough is the wrong question. Do you ask yourself if a tree is good enough or a Mounatin 🙂

However, I still have the need for achievement – not to prove myself to anybody, but to share my gifts and talents – to simply “shine my light” in a more deliberate way, if you will. So it’s kind of the need for self-expression and self-realization in one, you might say 🙂

Is it a way of giving love?

Okay, let me repeat it here again: you don’t know what your contribution (to the world) should be, and you want to pray for clarity on that.

My comment to that: how about listening within to what you want to offer to the world, rather than listening “without” (to a higher power to tell you)?

I belief in the way things are and so far haven’t met a higher power. It can be frustrating to know things you’d like to do and not being able to do them. I think praying can really help me to be an antidote to feeling helpless. Then I can pray for finding way’s to do what I want to do with joy. To overcome my obstacles in times of despair.

It sounds like if you don’t do things others expect from you (or you believe they expect), you fear that the person might feel rejected, and it causes you pain. And you feel helpless because you don’t want to hurt them, but at the same time, you don’t want to do it either. So you are conflicted. You feel ambivalence, and perhaps you freeze in that neither-nor state, not wanting to do it, but not able to reject it either. Am I interpreting this right?

Thanks for sharing this observation. What you write is very close to how I feel. Yeah, this impulse confuses me and it is a challenge to bear. What I do is to let go which takes some time and control.

It sounds like a healthy thing: to allow yourself time and space to flourish, not judging yourself, not rushing yourself, but being like a good parent, or a good friend, to yourself.

It feels good to read that 🙂

Hi Tee,

That’s okay if you don’t respond when you don’t feel like it. No pressure. I am sorry you got sick – is it something like the flu?

Thanks, I need to hear this over and over. Mhh, I wonder I actually am sick once a month an now since 3 weeks. Feeling exhausted, last week rather stiff, ill and headache this week more a cold, less dizzy. I wanna try omega-3 and Vitamin D maybe that helps.

I am again worse with regard to my back – it started hurting for apparent reason, without any wrong move, so I am perplexed. Not really panicking like last year, but it’s not a good feeling to go through it again, because I thought I’ve reached a certain state, where I was more resilient and more stable. But apparently not :\

Do I get you right, you put more stress on your back like exercise and now it started hurting? I can Imagine that you feel vulnerable and helpless cause what you did seemed to have less impact. Maybe it is something like a flashback and you are more resilient and stable than you think.

Well, it would be a positive contribution for the world, on a small scale of course, within my sphere of influence.

In a course in miracles they say that the valuation does not matter rather how it feels. I like that.
Is it rather that you wanna see yourself in a certain role in life doing a certain action to validate your existence?

You want to pray to know what you need to do? Like, you don’t know what your contribution (to the world) should be, and you want to pray for clarity on that? Sorry if I misunderstood you…

Yes, that’s it. Thanks for trying.

Ah, it sounds like you believe people have expectations on you, they want you to do something, and you feel pressured by it, and you don’t like it. (BTW there are no expectations from my side, so as far as I am concerned, please don’t feel pressured to reply).

I think expectation is a small part. If someone does not reply on a forum or the phone within a time it’s easy to feel rejected. It’s already special for our systems to communicate without seeing or hearing. And I noticed that for me it’s hard to accept that my action is maybe not the cause but reminds a person at her vulnerability. My system sees danger if I do not take action I can get into ambivalence then.

Okay, so you feel comfortable doing things at your own pace, in your own time, when you feel like it, not when someone tells you to do it, right? Is it related to your family and the expectations they have from you? Or other people’s expectations as well?

Thanks for asking Tee. Yes I do things in my pace, time and feel. It is like being a child and I think I need this type of space to flourish.