Hi Tee,

Thanks for your reply.

Have you tried taking vitamin B6? I’ve tried it when I felt tension in my nerve, and it helped.

Yes, I actually bought a supplement once I read it from you and noticed that the Magnesium I take has it too.

Oh I see, so you didn’t even want an injection because you were afraid you won’t feel the pain and then you’d overdo yourself. This means you didn’t really want to minimize the pain – you wanted to feel it, so that it guides you. I assumed the opposite – that you minimized it so you can keep skating. I apologize for that – that was my false assumption.

Yeah exactly.

What I’ve learned (based on the teachings of Drs Sarno, Schubiner, Hanscom etc) is that pain (specially chronic pain) depends on the way we perceive danger. Pain is created in the brain, based on the impulses we receive from the body, but also the level of danger we perceive.

If we believe that a movement is dangerous/unsafe, we will feel more pain, because pain is the brain’s alarm to stop doing that what is dangerous. If we believe that the movement is safe, we will feel less pain.

Before I’ve learned this, every time I’d accidentally make a wrong move and started feeling pain, I would panic and fear that I’ve messed it up and wouldn’t be able to recover from it. I perceived danger from every “less than perfect” movement. And that’s what increased the pain and made me worry even more. That mental anguish and worry was actually very exhausting, it wasn’t good for my mental health at all.

So I’ve learned to accept that not every less-than-perfect move is dangerous, and this made me much more relaxed about feeling pain. Because I know that in a few days I’ll be back to normal again, and that I haven’t messed it up irreversibly.

Thank’s for sharing your insight. I think it backs the expirience I make.

There’s one thing I think about. I think it can be psychosomatic too. There is this saying in german:’She/He has no backbone’. It’s when someone does not standup for himself. I imagine that as language evolved these sayings evolved. Why is the back chosen in the saying? I can imagine that people observed that certain people who are conditioned this way have weak backs. So this makes me wonder if the healing is reconnecting to myself. This is what my being is prioritizing more than doing exercises it seems to be the most important as soon I get the basic needs met.

But then as it wouldn’t go away and it got worse (partly because I wasn’t told I should be cautious), it really made me overly cautious and fearing my every move.

I think I can relate to this fear I try to move from fear to trust that what ever arises I can handle. The mind does not like that it wants to have control. It has nothing to do if it can’t worry.

Hi Tee,

ah, it’s called sliding vertebra it’s a different thing and has a very similar latin name aand yes I mixed it up. 😉

My pain wasn’t so unbearable that I would need a cortisol injection

Mine either the doctor pushed me to do it after 2 Months. I needed the insurance money. Hard to say how much in numbers it was. It was very dependent on my mood and other needs and how I could meet them.

Yeah, the bigger the distance between the load and your core, the bigger the stress on your spine. I can do much less physical work, even house work, than before, and that’s something I am not happy about either :/

I noticed that too, it’s affecting me rather on the ‘I can’t ride rails in the snowpark every day’ and ‘I don’t feel like jumping stairs with the skateboard level’. If I can accept it it’s easy. I get it that it’s peanuts too not being able to ski at all and needing more breaks during housework.

Yeah, don’t push yourself. Every trainer who has experience with spinal injury will tell you not to push yourself. Maybe a little, till the pain is 3-4, but never beyond that, because that’s when the inflammation starts and you’re doing yourself more harm than good.

Thanks, it’s good to have read that. It will support my future decisions.

Yeah.. but do be careful with certain moves though. Are you still skating?

Yes, mostly small half pipes. Many of the movement’s I do some doctors would not approve. I actually think it’s a bit more resilient or that I get used to feeling it.

So now when it hurts, it hurts on both sides, though more on the left.

Do you have more outward rotation on one side? (while laying and looking at the feet one small toe is closer to the ground usually)

Another question how would you differ chronic and non-chronic pain?

Hey Tee,

I too am suffering from back pain, got a herniated disc.

I got that too and it’s on the sciatic and the piriformis muscle in the butt might do the same. It had it out of the blue while doing a lot of physical activity. I don’t really have pain it’s more like my right leg, right back feels different by times mostly when emotional or when I lift too heavy. I don’t know how reliable it is.

Yes, it’s physical. I’ve had physical injuries in the last 5 years that remained chronic (like knee and back pain), and this is limiting me quite a bit…

I can relate to that as what I have now is slowing me down which am also grateful (I’m less pushy) for and scared (cause I wanna do physical work).

Yes, I am interested in that topic too, because of these injuries and chronic pain that I have to manage and live with. It was quite an adjustment, emotionally and mentally too, to suddenly have to live with physical limitations, to not be able to do the things you loved before. I had to grieve those things. It still causes me pain (emotional pain) but I’ve learned to accept it.

I can imagine and worry how it is to find new strategies for self regulation when those things don’t work at all. It broke me last spring when I was in pain a lot and that is one thing. I feel relieved to read that you find way’s to live with it and function cause it show’s that it’s possible.

This concept was first discovered by Dr. John Sarno, and now it is taught by Dr. Hanscom, Dr. Schubiner, as well as Tanner Murtagh, who is teaching the somatic tracking practice. He has a pretty cool youtube channel, with lots of exercises for tracking our body sensations and reducing chronic pain.

Cool, thanks for sharing.

As you can see, this topic can make me talk for hours 🙂 It came out of necessity, but it is what it is, I’ve learned a lot about it as I am trying to help myself…

Hiooo 🙂

Good morning Tee,

Sound’s like a not boring at all and very challenging situation your in. It’s so crazy when many thing’s hit at once. I wish that you can be loose of your struggle soon and feel healthy. It feels light to read that you get a little hold on things and being able to have some control.

I need to contemplate some more on it

I got inspired by Peter Levine (and Vipassana) it’s worth to check him out if you’re not knowing him yet.

Congratulations on becoming a Snowboard teacher! I am glad you decided not to hide any more, and that it felt natural to be authentic, even though it was scary.

Thanks, I’m touched <3

Actually if we are in tune with our body, we are also in tune with our true needs. And with our intuition. So it makes sense that you would listen to your body and try to sense how you feel about something, and then do what feels right. Yeah, it makes sense to me.

I feel happy that it makes sense to you 🙂 I have been observing that when I’m in touch and I fall on a Skateboard it does not hurt it’s kind of a sweet pain. As soon as there is a slight pressure (my mind wants to take control). I get more stiff it hurts and I feel I can get injured. I belief if I’m patient to wait for risky things to do with confidence, trust and flow chances high I don’t get injured.

I think I have a similar experience with pain as you write here:

Wow, I too learned that I worry too much about my health and that it’s actually health anxiety. I also learned that when I am anxious, the body can’t heal so well, and the pain is stronger too. When I can stop fearing and freaking out, the pain diminishes too. So that’s been super helpful.

I’m not what is making my condition worse always the last 4 times I observed when I’m in pain there’s also guilt or abandonment around and not only as science say’s wrong movement. I might just feel this way because I belief it’s not good for me. Placebo is a deal and I’m scared but also it feels right to not take science too serious cause of the effect it has on my bodymind. It’s like it’s right for the thinking but wrong for the heart.

I hope I do not project my things onto you. I paid attention not to do that.

Hi Tee,

Good you can stay away from the PC during holidays. I’m also away and without a keyboard device. I already did a full reply two days ago and it got lost on the way. Now am doing it again.
I hear that you’re in pain yourself thank you for explaining me why it takes longer for a reply. Also that you did when you found energy for it.

Thanks Beni. I’ve never really learned NV communication per se, just always tried to understand the other person’s point of view and put myself in their shoes. That always helps have more compassion and understanding. And I’ve been a good listener too, always asking people how they are, inquiring about them. But I have to admit, now that I am suffering from health challenges, it’s not always easy because I have to deal with my own pain and have less capacity to deal with other people’s pain.

I grateful there are people who know how to communicate in a compassionate way. In a way which creates space in the heart. I understand, it’s hard to be here for people when you need you’re resources to take care of yourself. Maybe you need people to take care of you. I want to tell you that if you wan’t to talk about something there is space for it.

Glad you’re noticing it now – that when you feel you don’t have options, it’s actually a stress response, not the reality of the situation. So in those situations, try to slow things down (e.g. do some slow deep breathing), and give yourself time to answer.

Yes, that’s a big thing! What also helps is this accupuncture matt I’m trying since three weeks. It’s also very good when you have pain as it helps to refocus on other sensations.

I mean, if someone asks you something you don’t necessarily want to do, you don’t have to give your answer immediately. You can say you have to check your calendar and will let them know later, or something to that effect. And then you can process your upset when you’re alone, and then when you’re calmer, you can decide whether you want to go or not. Keeping in mind that you don’t have to please everyone and that “if you meet someones needs against your own needs, everyone is gonna pay for it“.

Good to read that, even when I know things I need to read and be told again and again. It seems to have more power when it comes from outside.

Yeah, that’s not a good motivation. If you do things you don’t want to do out of fear of being rejected, that’s not a healthy place.

You mean your parents intimidated you into doing something which is otherwise important and valuable (e.g. visit a sick grandmother), and you felt pressured to do it? Whereas if they would have explained, you would have done it more gladly?

Yes, I’m learning that there are people who feel when you’re not alright and then they ask me about it. My parent’s don’t know how to do that yet. I think they might be learning it right now.
I think there was a lack of understanding and space in my upbringing.

It just occurs to me that we need to first have compassion for ourselves, and only then can we have compassion for other people. If we are forced to do something while our own needs are not taken into consideration, what we’ll feel is anger and resentment. And then even if something is worthwhile and kind (such as visiting our sick grandmother), we’ll see it as a burden and have resistance towards it. Not sure if you relate to this?

Yes, I can even say that somewhere I want to visit grandma and there is something more important so important that it needs to be cared for right now. I think the way I learned to do things is to do the visit ma and cope my need for autonomy/authenticity/love/understanding.

What I also wanted to say is that I want to learn more by expirience and that I sometimes might have to trigger people to tell me their boundries and that this is a way I can learn without getting lost in analysis.

Well, we can’t please everyone. It sounds like you’re afraid that if you say No, people will get angry and you can’t bear that. Actually, there might be people who will get angry with us if we set boundaries – because they’ve learned to abuse us and exploit us. But good people – people who are your true friends and who are non-manipulative – will never get angry if you set healthy boundaries. They’ll respect those boundaries. So if you set boundaries and someone attacks you and blames you for that, they’re not a good friend.

Thanks

I hear what you’re saying. You want to be loving to everyone, you don’t want to close your heart to anyone, right? And you feel you need to close your heart to people if you want to set boundaries?

I belief my heart can stay open to anyone and that boundries can be set with an open heart.

This might be if those people are manipulative and can’t just accept your boundaries, but blame you for it. And so you start feeling angry with them and inevitably you close your heart, because it hurts to be blamed…. Is that what is happening?

It’s really hard to stay to my truth whith such people. And it really hurts if I close my heart for such people. Then frear, guilt and anger take over. I think yes, that’s what’s happening. I feel that it’s more important to keep the heart open than to reply to such things.

Do you feel she is blaming you and guilt-tripping you if you set boundaries? Because that’s what might cause you to feel rejected, and you might want to go against your wishes and do it anyway, because you don’t want to hurt her?

Yes, I think I couldn’t set boundries as a child there was no space for it. I would like to meet her and my needs.

Yeah, it could be that you do betray yourself because if you’re being yourself, you get blamed and rejected, and you don’t want that. We as children are totally dependent on our parents. And so we often betray ourselves because we need to stay in the relationship – it’s a survival instinct. And we keep that in our adulthood too.

That’s what I think might have happened.

So you might be doing something similar with you mother – desperately wanting to stay in the relationship and feeling that the only way to do it is if you betray yourself? (or at least that’s how it was the past?)

It’s propably all the same thing. How my mom treated me, how I feel others treat(h) me, how I treat myself. It feels pretty simple.

Sometimes we believe we’re selfish (or people accuse us of being selfish) if we want to respect our own needs. People pleasers believe they are selfish whenever they say No to anything. So I would reevaluate those instances where you felt you were selfish. Maybe you said it in an angry tone and lacking diplomacy, but your basic impulse was to protect yourself and your own needs?

Yes, when I did it it’s just that I didn’t know a harmonic way in that moment. I did it without compassion which creates tension.

Yeah, it seems you are very careful not to hurt people. But sometimes people will be hurt because you’re not letting them to take advantage of you any more. In reality, you’re not hurting them, but they might still accuse you of hurting them…. so that’s a challenge you’ll need to deal with.

Yes, people can be reminded at pain in the past. I can maybe remind them of their memory.
My responsibility is to act with pure intentions. I’m only responsilbe for what I can control.

I think that real, genuine connection can’t exist without empathy on both sides. If you care about people, but they don’t care about you or your needs, that’s not real connection. With some people we just can’t have a genuine connection, because they don’t have empathy or understanding for us, but rather, they want to manipulate us or take advantage of us. I don’t know if this has been your experience, but I am just saying: it’s impossible to be open-hearted and unguarded with everyone because some people will take advantage of that.

I want to disagree. It’s also painful to close the heart. I try to find some in between. Maybe we have a different idea of what the heart is. For me it’s how spaceful the feeling in my chest is. It has to do with how much compassion I feel.
Maybe there’s something I do not understand or can not do yet. Maybe the best I can do is just to be with my heart and not loose it.

Yes, we need to have both. We shouldn’t sacrifice ourselves in order to stay in an abusive or manipulative relationship.

Agree 🙂

But it seems she somehow shifts (or used to shift) a part of that blame on you? Or you felt sorry for her because she seemed helpless, she was pitying herself (you said she was in the martyr role) – and so you gave up on yourself so she would be less upset and less miserable about her own life?

Yes, I was strong for her maybe I was her anchor.

Good. If she’s learning how to meet her own needs, rather than expecting you to do that, that’s a good sign. I hope she’ll keep working on herself and also that you’ll be able to set better boundaries with her, not feeling selfish for doing that.

sadhu, sadhu, sadhuuu

Good Evening Tee,

You can even tell some people – but only those you trust – that you’re trying to be more open about your feelings and show more vulnerability, and so not to worry about you but simply lend you a listening ear, without needing to fix anything. I don’t know if this would be too much to ask, but anyway, just a suggestion in case it may help you open up even more.

That’s a very good point. People tend to be overwhelmed or to give advice.

What I am noticing is that your communication style is very gentle. So I am guessing that you have it in you and that it won’t be that hard to express yourself in a gentle, yet assertive way.

I do and also I work hard for it.

As for the black-or-white reaction (submit or rebel), that’s very typical because those are the only two ways we’ve learned as children. And it’s actually a part of our trauma response (fight-flight-freeze). Fight would be to rebel, flight or freeze would be to submit, I guess.

I think what could help is not to view such situations like an attack – like someone threatening you – but more like someone expressing their preference and you having the right to accept it or refuse it. You having the right to express your own preference.

I agree and I often have this perspective. In Non-Violent Communication, one teaching which stuck with me was: “If you meet someones needs against your own needs, everyone is gonna pay for it”. I belief it’s true. And yet there are situations where I do not leave because I forget that I can. I forget that I have options. Or I just can’t (mentally) and then I know it and live with that.

My experience is that whenever I don’t feel helpless about the situation, the more empowered and less angry I feel. Because I know I have options – I can say no and refuse to do what I don’t want to do. So this gives me a more relaxed attitude about it, rather than triggering the fight-or-flight response, where I feel I need to defend myself from danger.

Yes, it’s about admitting to your self that I have options. I can skip work, weddings, breakfast or whatever if I want. This really helps, these days it’s one of my main practices to give myself all the options. Maybe even too many. I give it to other people too, it’s like: “Whatever you’re gonna do I will accept you”. There’s more to it, the next step might be that there are boundaries and values added to it. Acceptance and tolerance.

I read that some people can’t say no at all, some options are just not practical even if it would be the right thing to do. I don’t push for it anymore. Like with my mom. I accept it happening or not happening.

And then you can be more diplomatic about it, e.g. saying “I know how much you’d love to see this movie, but I really feel tired today and need to get some rest”. So you acknowledge their need, but you also express your own need. That’s how you assert yourself politely and gently. Does that makes sense?

Yes, it makes sense and I can make sense out of it. The first part : “I know how much you’d love to see this movie”, I really want to adopt that. I think it can help making it less scary because there is empathy with autonomy. Yeah, I think I really want to use empathy and autonomy together. That might be powerfull. Autonomy is kinda scary by itself.

You mean the extremes of feelings that a person with a BPD feels (e.g. first the intense love for someone, then intense hate after the person doesn’t give them everything they ask for)?

I think in the broad I mean that somedays I feel connected and then shy again (withdrawl). In romantic relationship’s I get very attached and then I need a lot of space. BPD is overkill. I can connect with the following.

– abandonment is unbearable
– unstable sense of self
– it feels like I can’t be without a person (that’s what it makes hard to leave)

I think I mentioned it because I understood that you do not make boundaries then you boundaries are met by withdrawal.

Yeah, you can’t pretend to have boundaries. I mean, we can have too weak boundaries, which can be easily crossed, or too rigid boundaries, where we put up a wall around ourselves. It takes some healing and practice to learn how to set healthy boundaries. And also self-awareness, because you first need to know what is it that you want and don’t want in your life.

I belief atm, it’s something I need to feel rather than decide.

I totally get you. I also have a bad experience acknowledging weakness or vulnerability to my mother. It always backfired because she would blame me for my own suffering, telling me that it’s all my fault, or she would later use the information against me, to attack me or judge me in some way. She never showed empathy. So yeah, admitting that I am hurting was always dangerous and traumatic.

And I get you, de only difference is our mom’s strategy.

Oh really? Is she attending therapy? Because my mother has always refused it – she keeps blaming other people (including me) for her problems.

Yes, she does. You right, it’s great and a thing to be celebrated. Good to be reminded.

You mean, when she asks you how you are, but actually has that martyr expression on her face and you know she isn’t really interested in knowing how you are – you think that it would help if you asked her “what would you like to know?” instead of answering a more general question of “how are you?

Yes, I noticed that I answer questions which are more specific. I think she needs to connect and in this moment and does not know how.

I noticed that I did not reply to this part.

Thank you, Beni. I know it’s hard to love ourselves, if we are made to believe that we are unlovable and unworthy. That we’re not good enough. I know because it was the same for me. I actually received that first “jolt” of love by meditating on Jesus. Yeah. I didn’t receive it from any person around me (although I did and still do have a good and loving husband). But somehow I always felt a hole in my heart, I felt unlovable for a long time. And then in a meditation on Jesus (whom I imagined as unconditionally loving and non-judgmental), I asked him to fill my heart with love. And it happened. That’s the first time I really felt lovable.

Well, that was my experience. You don’t have to do it like that, of course. But sometimes, when there is no one to give us that first jolt of love, we can call for a higher power, if we believe in one. Alternatively, surrounding yourself with loving, compassionate people, and seeking support in therapy are the best ways to feel that love. To accept that we are lovable and worthy.

Thank you for sharing your experience and I’m glad there are several way’s to have this experience.

Alright, I think I get it: you used to hide your sadness, you didn’t want people to know that you’re in pain (I’ve have the always smile poker face. It’s hard to know how I feel for others and also for myself.)

But last year you started opening a little and admitting when you’re sad (I learned last year to say that I’m poor). You don’t do that to get people’s sympathy and “extract” love from them, but simply to share your feelings, to not hide your feelings any more, right? (More in a : ”oh, look I feel really poor and it’s real but you don’t need to worry. I’m glad you listen to me” way)

Yes, that’s exactly why I do it. Thanks for helping me making it present.

Definitely, that can be wholesome. I am glad you’re opening more, even if it’s still hard for you to show vulnerability. For example, it’s still hard for you to ask people for help when you have physical injury.

You say you don’t want to complain to people because you’re afraid they won’t like you (I don’t complain in front of other people because I’m afraid they don’t like me). But you want to change that attitude and be more open about your feelings. You don’t want to pretend that you’re fine when you’re not necessarily.

That’s all great, Beni. You’re trying to be more authentic and not be afraid to show weakness or vulnerability. You are not less lovable because sometimes you need help or you are sad or frightened. You mother might have taught you you shouldn’t have needs, or that you are selfish if you have needs. But that’s not true.

So it’s okay to show vulnerability. In fact, vulnerability is our secret strength, because it enables us to be authentic, to be ourselves. And being authentic is I think super powerful.

Yeah, that’s where I’m at.

Perhaps when you share that you’re sad and show some vulnerability, you start feeling uncomfortable and you panic? Maybe you fear that people with reject you, and then you quickly try to downplay what you said, like “oh but it’s not such a big deal, I am not that bad actually, I am fine”?

Hmm, yes. I’d like to have control on how I’m perceived because I don’t know what I’m doing is happening. I mostly don’t downplay anymore because it creates more confusion.

That’s nice of you. I think you showed empathy for her. Not pity in a negative sense.

Yes, I felt the same.

Do you say to people what you believe they want to hear? Do you do favors for them because you’re afraid they’ll reject you if you set boundaries? I am just curious: how do you think you people please?

I observed the following. When I’m with people with different dialect I adopt it. I can easily be with a group and agree to every activity. I might loose my autonomy with time.
Yes, I tend to tell people what they want to hear. I feel disconnected when I set boundaries. It’s like one or the other extreme only you or only me.

Oh so she is looking at you with self-pity, but then asks you how you are, right? And so you refused to answer, because you know her intention. Good for you! Yeah, it’s good you don’t allow yourself to be manipulated but could actually see through her and refuse to take part in her little game. What did she tell you in response? Did she get offended?

I think she felt rejected. I do not have space for her pain in this situations because of my own pain.

Good afternoon Tee,

yes, I had a difficult upbringing, with an emotionally cold, strict and very criticizing mother. And it left many scars on me, which lasted for many years. But with the help of therapy and increasing self-awareness, I’ve managed to heal gradually, basically to heal my inner child. I swear by this method of healing, because it helped me the most, after some other modalities didn’t help.

Wow, I feel proud that you did/do this work with you Tee. It needs a lot of strength and courage. I also feel grateful that to meet someone who did overcome it and is able to share it in the way you do.

Oh I see… so you’re kind of pitying yourself, telling yourself and other people “I am so poor”. Or “poor me, nobody loves me”. And then people might feel guilty if they reject you, right? And they start resenting you and the tension starts building. Is that what’s happening?

I do feel that way and I would say it in an unconscious way. Like when someone gives me a compliment I’d say. Ah it’s not so good. I’d down rate it. Because I’d get reminded that I don’t feel good enough.
This might be how tension builds up yes. I don’t see trough it yet.
Right now I try to get some distance from that. I say. Oh, I feel so poor. I must be the poorest person on the planet. Like I try to not take it serious.

If so, that’s your inner child crying and whining, because he really feels unloved. He really didn’t receive the proper love and nurturance from his mother (or father), and he is lacking. He is still trying to receive it, only not from your mother or father, but from the people around you. So you feeling pity for yourself is actually your inner child feeling pity for himself, because he indeed didn’t have his basic emotional needs met.

Okay, I observed that treating little Beni in a pity way does strengthen the belief that he’s poor. I try to tell him in the way I mentioned above: “Don’t be silly my love, you know this is not true anymore”.  It feels like this can help.

The way to heal is to heal your inner child, to give him the love and care he craves. To be a good parent to him. That’s how you’ll stop pitying yourself and “manipulating” people to give you love. Because you’ll have it in you, your heart will be full and nourished.

It is really difficult to give it to myself. I met some people this year who could make me feel that I’m good enough. A very wholesome experience. I belief you also do it.

Yes, there is a way to be in harmony with your inner child. You would need to first acknowledge and validate his needs. Tell him that he is lovable and precious and special. And that you’ll be there for him.

I do that, it does resonate a little. I think the best I can do atm is to not put pressure on him. I think I need to give him space that he can trust me again.
Also I work on making other people feeling good enough. I belief that the mind does not differentiate and by strengthening the trait, I’ll be able to give it to myself later on.

Perhaps experiment with that a little bit and see if you can give yourself some self-soothing. If not, it’s not a big deal, there are therapists for that. They provide a safe environment and the unconditional positive regard, so that we can start feeling seen and accepted and appreciated. They give us the first “boost” of acceptance and validation, and from then on, we learn to love ourselves (and our inner child) more and more.

I will. Thanks for the input.

Oh I see. So she maybe used you to meet her emotional needs, because her husband was emotionally unavailable? (Perhaps she complained to you about your father or other problems in her life?) That can put a big stress on the child, because the roles are reversed, and instead of meeting our emotional needs, the parent expects us to meet their emotional needs, which we as a child are totally unable to.

Yes, I belief this is it. I met her a week ago and I saw it in her eyes.