Hi Silvery Blue

Im sorry to hear about the situation in your family and how you are finding it hard to communicate with them because of their issues. I don’t have family members with those specific issues but I do have problems with my sister and dad with whom I feel the gap between us is too large to traverse because there has been so much pain and where I feel that I am alone in trying to broach the gap in a constructive way. It is painful to leave them behind but this is what I have chosen to do because it was affecting me, and so affecting my own family thro me, because I was unable to contain the negative influence my dad and sister had upon me. When I feel stronger I may revisit the situation because I do not want to abandon them but I chose to preserve my own sanity for my own sake and the sake of my family. I feel it was the right decision for me at this point in time. A choice had to be made to help someone since helping someone was what I wanted to do. In the end after years of arguments and disasters, I have chosen to help myself and my family. Helping my dad and sister led to further pain for all parties. Perhaps my dad and sister did not see it as pain but they couldnt stop themselves from responding to me in an emotionally immature way which is a difficult dynamic to withstand when it goes on and on and on. Breaking out of a trauma bond is a very hard and non intuitive thing to do. That may not be what you have at play. I am just relating to you the factors that were at play for me. Put in simply terms, I can only help others after I have helped myself to be a more sane person. Perhaps they may see this change in how I am with them and reflect on it to turn things around. They have always had that opportunity. Its not that I wont help those who will not help themselves, but it seems that I cant because, when I try, I hurt myself and still end up helping no one.

Your questions are very precise:
– how tactfully articulate our needs and boundaries without feeling like we are hurting others or ourselves
– how to learn how to remain compassionate and considerate when we feel hurt
– when we feel hurt, ignored, how properly work with these feelings (maybe tips, sources, …?)
– healthy boundaries which don’t isolate us from others (maybe try to formulate some of them?)
– any specific examples from your real lives, if you are willing to share them and want to discuss them and find some support

I have been thinking along these lines myself over the past few weeks. I will ponder on them and get back to you ❤️

Hi everyone,

Its heartening to read how things have transformed here between Tee and Anita. Ive learned a lot from the insights they shared as they traversed this pretty rough and rocky path. Thanks for allowing this all to be public so that I could learn from it too, both of you. As Im sure many of us are, I am on my own healing journey and seeing how you have both managed to come to this place after a very drawn out and oftentimes bitter battle gives me light and hope for my own attempts at reconciliation with others in my life ❤️

Another thing I see is that there is a beautiful little community here that has been in each other’s mentions for years. For me, this is itself pretty remarkable and heartwarming. I dont see it anymore, not for a long time, and most definitely not online. I feel pretty lucky to be here ❤️ Thanks for having me (altho I guess you didnt exactly have a choice in that lol 🙂

You guys are wonderful. Keep shining your light ❤️

Hi ❤️

Silvery Blue 🙂 Not at all – theres no distrespect of tactlessness that I feel going on. Please also let me know if you sense that from me. Different cultural norms obviously colour the way we deal with things ad the expectations we carry. For sure – being heard is definitely a human need. Its universal and one of the ways in which to feel connection with somone and knowing others care to hear us out is a huge part of what brings us a sense of mental well being. Where I said its important to be clear on why our message should be heard by others, it sounds like you want to say something and are looking for an opening to say it but because it is about how something played out here, you are reluctant to. Altho I think you have said it to a certain extent (it appears that way to me)?

So my considerations could be what is the reason I want to speak on it and who do I think needs to hear it or who do I want to direct it to? There have been times where I have stood up for some injustice only to find that, even tho others may agree with me, me taking the stand mainly achieved to make myself a pariah despite having widespread agreement from many people when I was on a one on one basis with them. Another consideration is what is the outcome you are after? Are you looking to reveal this to us all here (audience and platform)? Would it be more suited as a one on one, perhaps an email? Would it be better to frame it as a more impersonal and general message about injustice, that justice is important to you? Or is it that you want those who were mistreated to feel supported? Its not that its not warrented to stand up for others, but if those who were directly involved in the conflict are ok with it playing out as it has so far then is there any further need for action? If you think there is then perhaps reflect on why this is an issue for you. I’m not saying that it shouldn’t be but its in breaking it down like this that we can learn more about why things are important to us and which part of us has come out to make themselves be felt, most often because of an injustice done to them in the past. Maybe it is that part of us who needs to be felt, heard, and soothed? Did they have boundies that were overstept that they want to communicate to us maybe? Please be assured that I am not saying that this is what I think you must do, or even that it is my analysis of your situation. Its simply what I would do. For me, I call that shadow work and it takes a lot of the emotional stickiness I felt in a situation right out.

I think along similar lines to Alessa in that we need to account for how we respond to those who may have done so while triggered. If we have that fortitude then thats the ideal time to practise it (ideally, its not easy, I fail in this a lot 🙁 ) Even so, whoever you are talking about, as Peter said, the ones with the trigger are the ones who need to be mindful of it. It is their responsibility. My personal stance is that I’ll give kids all the understanding and support they need. I will do it to a certain extent with adults if they are in my inner circle. For people outside of that, its on a case by case basis. I do not give people the permission to mistreat me anymore and my absorbing it once or twice is ok. Ill warn them that this was not ideal but if I keep on having to do it then I reassess my relationship with this person. Do you feel you have been mistreated perhaps? I think everyone on this thread is being respectful enough. That’s my impression tho. Like I said with shadow work, is this a calling from a part of you who did go thro mistreatment and wants to make a stand now?

I spend time building resiliency when it comes to this type of thing which is basically an exercise in self-soothing and realising and feeling thro that I may indeed be alone in this but that is ok. Parent me will take care of kid me. I can take it and in this instance I have to because the person who could help me isn’t. I look at it from the perspective of how I dealt with it and not how I felt let down by others which is the flipside altho I do soothe them too. I love all parts of me individually 🙂

Others letting me down is a fact of life in the same way that others can lift me up being as much a fact of life too. It still hurts and sometimes it reopens wounds but chances are you arent being hurt in isolation of reality. You asked if it was normal for family and friends or people who want to connect to hear us out. I agree that they should but my life has taught me that this is not often the case sadly. There are some people who cannot accept our message for what it is. There are some who never will. Then there are some who may be more receptive to it but you have to figure out how to go about doing it. Hugs! This is hard to live thro and some days it hits us harder than others.

I am open to hearing you out but as an outsider I dont know how much that will help. The offer is there.

❤️

Hey folks 🙂 This is a cool discussion! I’m really enjoying it 🙂

Alessa, yes it was to do with something on Laven’s thread. Thanks for the reassurance. I like your personal distillation of what healing is currently about for you and the last bit really stands out to me: “Mistakes happen, it is what you do afterwards that matters. Trying to make amends is an important part in the process for me.” I’ve come to regard this as a massive marker of what it is to be a reliable person. It teaches me that I can rely upon myself more and more with each mistake I make. It’s as much for me as it is for the person I’m making amends for. In the trauma space, self-compassion is often ignored, sometimes to the point where we don’t even realise that we are being harsh with ourselves. Making amends quietens the inner critic, or the feelings of shame, or whatever negative thing that comes up. So I get to not have to wage war with my inner demons all while becoming more reliable as a person and hopefully also showing the other person that I’m sorry. Making mistakes looks like a wonderful opportunity for growth lol.

Silvery blue, you asked if I had had any specific experiences of somethings. When I wrote that I was talking from an animal behaviour standpoint. Many social species do this type of thing. As a primatologist I’d say that all great apes, of which humans are one, do it to perfection. Its normal behaviour. Social behaviour is inherently political. Everything gets noticed and can be used for or against you at a later time. Coalitions form and shift. Leaders are challenged and usurped. Its part of our ancestory.

I do also have my own personal experiences with this. I was raised in a dysfunctional family system. In order to survive in this environment I quickly learned the skills I needed. I became hypervigilant, people pleasing, self-sacrificing, detached from a sense of authenticity. Small, simply, everyday things I did that bought out an emotional response in me – good, neutral or bad – would be noted by my parents and used against me at a later time in order to exploit me. Showing genuine emotion was dangerous for me so I tried to keep it hidden. When you grow up in a mesh of antagonistic relationships it can be alarming how a small and innocent smile can become twisted and monsterous to someone else who wasnt even part of the interaction and they can make your life quite hellish.

On giving respect to others while being respectful to ourselves, I think it depends on what our motivations were to have taken part in the social interaction in the first place. If we went in wanting to build connection then give and take should be more of less reciprocal. If we went in wanting to perform an act of service, say to hear someone out who is in a less fortunate position that us, then Id say we may not be treated in the ideal way but we did get to perform the act of service which, in that case, was our reason to get involved so we accomplished our goal. But if I was to spend a lot of time in social situations that left me feeling drained, or sad, or invisible, then I would not continue to spend that much time in them.  Getting someone else to acknowledge our goodness and to try to convince them of it is something the inner child of a person who had trauma would do. While its nice to be there for others, if we are flagging, then we arent actually there for them in the first place. Its counterproductive and I would question what I was trying to achieve. There are others who can listen in our place. We dont have to be there for them if we are self-abandoning to do it. You have to wonder, in those situations, who is there for whom? I respect and admire your will to be supportive to others but, for me, if I am doing it to the detriment of myself then I would draw the line there personally. Maybe another day I may be in a better place to do it. Its not forever. Theres not milestone Im trying to hit by hearing them out. Its just for that interaction where I am feeling that way. I’m curious – why would you fight it?

Take care all ❤️

I don’t believe that true compassion can be attained if it does not include self-compassion. Giving compassion to others at the expense of ourselves, regardless of the reason that happens to justify it in our mind, is compassion like to the other whilst being an over or under extension into ourselves. Compassion is the balance bwtween what we give outwards and what we have inwards. Anything else is off balance and sets of a reactionary chain of events that hurts whoever it was that performed the act.

This is captured in Attachment Theory where the bonds we form with others in social interaction mean that life is filtered in a certain thro our eyes as conforming our beliefs about ourselves. Theres secure attachment which is supposed to be ideal and outside of that there is anxious, avoidant and disorganised. A secure person would consider what the cost is to themselves and take that into account in their decision os whether they want to do something that looks compassionate and kind. If they didnt take that into consideration initially, then experiencing the outcome of their actions would inform whether they would do it again, or how they would do it again, and so they would reassess their boundries.

In the Vedic school of thought, this is a question of finding our dharma and the play between karma, and kriya. An act thro kriya is when you take the right action at the right time to the right degree and aligns with dharmic action. It considers not taking an action as an action as well. One done outside of this balance leads to karma where we experiences consequences for our action. Karma is suffering. Kriya is not.

And for sure, we cant expect everyone in a group to commit to being equally vulnerable, equally present, equally understanding. We can hold space for this and practise it ourseles to the capacity we do. We can act respectfully while respecting ourselves whatever that may look like to us but if we don’t respect ourselves and self-sacrifuce, this is noted by others. Its opens doors to how it can be used to manipulate and exploit us, it can be seen as a sign of weakness by others and be judged, it can reveal different degrees of alliances that we have with different group members. Any social act is a political one; its reputation enhancement, its wanting to be seen as considerate. Then theres reacting because of how we are feeling and that being taken as a communicative signal to others – we can signal unintentionaly to others that we are displeased or we can do it intentionally, and if intentionally, then what is the intention? Is it that we want thr other person to stop doing it, is it because we are manipulating others to see things as we do?

Conflict is an inescapable truth of life and not dealing with it well holds us back in life. It must be dealt with. Not conronting it at all is avoidant behaviour. Confronting it immediately is an anxious pattern. Confronting it securely – what does that look like? I’m guessing that its in dealing with it gratiously within a reasonable timeframe. Its in having hard conversations that may feel critical and blaming but doing it kindly. Outside of that, we don’t have control on the how others will respond.

Whew, that must be a relief! Glad you are all back home 🙂

Afternoon Everyone

Looking over the conversation here I think there have been some valuable point raised. HOpe its ok if I address them here to the person who made them. It makes it feel like we are talking to people as opposed to strangers, if thats’s ok with you all?

Silvery Blue – thank you for affirming with me that I will not be upsetting you by taking part here. I have a feeling everyone else on this thread knows one another relatively well, or are familiar more with each others stories and I think I am the new comer. It means a lot to hear that as it takes away some of the heaviness from me that I am an interloper. I love your point you made on finding your way with an inner conflict as you deal with conflict with others. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I get the impression that because you feel you have less trauma and difficulties to deal with, you perhaps feel you are less deserving, or maybe should place less emphasis, on how you confront the other who has more reason, or right, or even awareness, to react from their triggers and wounds? In my view, you have as much right as anyone else to be treated in a respectful and fair manner. When there is conflict tho, I can see why you may feel you can absorb more of the problematic behaviours that is fair. I take this approach in select circumstances; I do it with my loved ones and my children. These are trusted people whose wounds I know, and who have proven to me their commitment to dealing with things in a more healthy way. The other is when I am with colleagues who I have to work with, and acquaintances. With them I will take their treatment a small number of times, even just once depending on the nature of the conflict, and then reassess what my new boundary will be with them going forwards. I have family who I consider to be of this second sort who, bec they are ‘family’, I accept in my life to a certain degree. So they are people who do not treat me respectfully yet I see as within some sort of inner circle. In that type of case I treat it with caution. Conflicts there are unresolvable Ive found. Ill give them the space to express themselves but I will not expend energy on repeatedly explaining my points to them, or convincing them of why my needs should be considered. This is a power play as far as I am concerned and I will not enable them further by giving them my power. I really happy to hear you have found another supportive online community. Id love to get involved in it if you are willing to share the name? On that, what do you think it is about that space and this one that makes it feel safe to you?

Peter – I’d be interested in how you conceptualise forgiveness. I have had a battle with forgiveness for most of my life. I see its merits but it causes harm to the self too, when done out of obligation or because we force ourselves into it thro some body of wisdom or because of society’s expectations of what it is to be a good/moral person. And yes, tension 🙂 It does provide impetus into some really engaging and energising conversations I find because there is often a lot of passion and strong opinions to be aired. Shadow work is my jam! I love it and I am always curious about finding ways to hook myself into it. No matter how much external factors may disrupt my peace, integrating my shadow has always given me a new sense of calm. I’ve found various online resources about shadow work. My youtube algorithm is a master at digging these up for me but I have also found other resources such as the personal development school, which is an online community and platform where you can pay for courses into various types of relational healing with self and other. I have been studying the Vedas lately to see how it deals with the nature of reality and our role in it and I’ve found the concept of dharma to be liberating to me in so many practical ways on a day to day basis.

Alessa – I like your point about unrealistic expectations and assumptions. I think of my dealing with the toxic members in my family via this filter. It was a hard one to parent myself thro as my inner child was always ready to give them unrealistic freedom into me. But I’m still making sense of this for myself. It would be lovely to know how others have found their way, or are finding their way, thro this. And yes, patience! That a really painful one for me too but tie as shown my repeatedly that nothing can be done with it. Patience and timing. Unsolved conflict always seems to lead to either anger or resentment for me, and in those cases resentment, for me, is just subsided anger where its righteous anger that did not get heard or acknowledged leaving me feeing unseen. There was only so much of being unseen that I could take if it was by people who were just unwilling to see me. No amount of patience, or approaching it from another angle can overcome that. Some people are simply not going to be willing to see me and my experience with them tells me that it is down to a power play because they have double standards in that they demand respect from me, or stonewall.

Also, how do you get the emojis to appear? The smile face is a colon and a bracket. What are the codes for the others?
Have a good day folks.