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Peter

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  • #454034
    Peter
    Participant

    In my readings – A Zen master’s discipline is about removing what obscures awakening. When discipline arises from that intention, it becomes an act of care. It says: I see your Buddha‑nature, even when you forget it. I will not indulge the habits that keep you small… In this way form is how formlessness becomes visible. Love, in its deepest sense, is not sentiment but the willingness to meet reality as it is. Sometimes that meeting is soft; sometimes it is firm. Both can be expressions of the same heart.

    Form corrects. Love reveals. Which one moved you.

    “Sometimes form steadies us. Sometimes love uncovers us. When you listen closely, which one stirs your heart.”

    #454032
    Peter
    Participant

    Hi everyone
    Looking back on my earlier responses, I suspect I played the fool. Zen stories are not usually meant to be explained but to be sat with, allowed to work on us in silence. Yet this is not a typical Zen story, and since I am certainly not a Zen master, perhaps playing the fool can sometimes illuminate what lies beneath.

    Like Anita, my attention was drawn to the nun’s action and to the question of how the Zen master might respond. In that moment I felt the tension at the heart of Zen: Zen as a practice has form, yet Zen itself is without form. It is “nothing,” and yet that nothing is fullness. So I found myself wondering, how might a Zen master apply discipline (form) and still remain fully in accord with Zen? Put another way, how and or when is discipline a attribute of Love? A question to ponder.

    I also noticed how easily the story echoed the world around us. As Roberta noticed, the nun’s actions can be view as being courageous, the kind of courage that feels especially needed now. Watching the discourse of the day, I witness again and again, how often we fail to be honest about the values we claim to hold. Much like the monk in the story, we profess one thing, in hiding, and enact another. I witness what passes for dialogue, and in those moments feel like calling out:

    “If you truly love your neighbor as yourself, then come and embrace them now.”
    “If you truly hold the values you proclaim, then embody them now. Bring them out of the darkness and into the light.”

    To Anita’s point, that calling out might shame the person who isn’t being honest with themselves. Yet I feel their is a difference between deserved and undeserved shame. In the story I suspect the monk caught in the illusion of his desires blushed. (a symbol of awakening?)

    In the end, the story turns back toward us, as Zen stories tend to do. The nun’s challenge is not only to the lovestruck monk but to anyone who holds ideals at a distance rather than living them. Zen does not ask for perfection; it asks for presence. To notice when our words wander away from our actions. To sense when fear keeps us from stepping forward. To recognize that the “embrace” she calls for is not merely physical but the willingness to meet life without retreat. In this way, the story becomes a mirror, reminding us that the Dharma is not found in lofty principles or elegant forms, but in the quiet courage to embody them, moment by moment, in the very places we hesitate to enter.

    #453994
    Peter
    Participant

    Hi Alessa
    I agree it would not be love but a illusion of desire, a fantasy imagined as being Love.

    I don’t know anyone who has not fallen into that trap. And some of them have required that inner ‘slap’ to ‘wake up’. I’m pretty sure most of us have also experienced that “waking up” the hard way as well. 🙂 To my way of reading, its what makes the Zen story relatable. I’ve been shamed by such a slap, I have dressed up desire as love, I have hidden truths from myself that only a ‘slap’ would sake loose… but I am also the gardener who sometimes sees. So their is hope 🙂

    #453991
    Peter
    Participant

    Hi Anita,

    I appreciate the way you’re exploring the nun’s motives. It’s natural to look at the story through the lens of relational and community dynamics as a monastery does have rules and structure, and those matter on a practical level.

    On that level, I imagine the master would probably need to speak with both the monk and the nun to bring some light and discipline to whatever desires, illusions, or motivations might have been involved. He might even turn the incident into a Zen Kaon style story to teach others on the illusion behind hidden professions of love.

    Such stories tend to avoiding labeling desire or motive as good or bad. Instead, they use moments like this to reveal what’s been hidden. In that sense, the monk, the nun, and even the master aren’t so much “characters” as mirrors for different movements within one’s own mind.

    For example, I see the nun as an aspect of myself that wants to help others “see”, yet is sometimes hesitant to confront things directly. And your question also highlights another part of me, the part that has confronted others with a hidden intention to hurt and or shame. The story reflects all of these impulses and desires. Which, each in their own ways become problematic when not ‘seen’. Illuminated, and are a form of desire. In such a story I’m not required to judge or label myself, which is another form of illusion, but notice, and in noticing these aspects of self, soften and even dissolve them.

    At the same time, the nun standing up and speaking openly isn’t necessarily only about shaming or correcting him. It’s also the kind of jolt Zen stories are known for. The moment when something concealed suddenly steps into the light. Not right or wrong, just seen. And sometimes such ‘seeing’ requires such a metaphorical slap.

    #453955
    Peter
    Participant

    Hi Thomas,
    Thanks for posting these Zen stories. One of the things I enjoy about them is how many different layers they offer depending on how you look.

    One way I like to approach a Zen story is the same way I’d look at a dream, where every figure is an aspect of myself. So in this one, I’m the monk hiding desire, the nun exposing it, and the class watching. When I played with the story, I added a gardener quietly observing the whole inner drama. (observer is the observed) That’s why my version leans more toward illumination than rule‑breaking. The “shadows chased by dawn” was my way of pointing to that moment when something hidden becomes seen, and illusion loses its power.

    For me, Zen stories often point toward that shift from concealment to clarity. Not in a moral sense, but in the simple way that seeing dissolves confusion.

    I appreciate the exchange. It’s interesting how the same story keeps shifting depending on where we stand.

    #453842
    Peter
    Participant

    I was tending the garden when the commotion began, a ripple in the stillness, the kind only quiet souls know how to make.
    The nun rose like a flame remembering its ancient name.
    The monk stiffened, as though the figs he longed for had suddenly begun to speak.

    “Ah,” I murmured, “a illusion has stumbled into daylight.”

    Her voice moved through the hall and the shadows fled as if chased by dawn.
    His silence opened like a gate, and there, in the clearing, desire revealed its true face, dangiours when hidden, wisdom when seen.

    I returned to my cucumbers, content with their simple honesty, for they ask nothing of the dark and grow straight toward whatever sun
    the day is willing to give.

    #453635
    Peter
    Participant

    Hi Everyone
    I’ve loved this Zen story about the “silent debate”, how, when no words are spoken, we end up hearing the sound of our own minds. When nothing is said, everything you see is yourself. Thanks for sharing it Thomas

    What moves me most is how two people can stand in the same moment and walk away carrying completely different worlds. The traveling monk walked away touched by wisdom. The disciple walked away stung by insult. And yet, somehow, the lesson still found its way to the hearts that needed it.

    This story reminds me that the Way, the quiet intelligence of life, rarely arrives wrapped in perfection. Sometimes it comes disguised as misunderstanding, as hurt feelings, as someone else’s anger. Sometimes the Way speaks through us even when we’re not trying to be wise, even when we’re caught in our own storms.

    The traveler was humbled by what he experienced as a profound insight. The disciple was inflamed by what he believed was mockery. Two egos, two illusions, one puffed up, one wounded. Zen has a way of showing us that ego distorts everything, whether it lifts us up or knocks us down.

    And there’s a softer lesson for the disciple too: I imagine him learning how the traveler interpreted their exchange, and in that moment discovering that others sometimes see more strength, more depth, more wholeness in us than we see in ourselves.

    For me, this story is a reminder to stay open. To remember that meaning often rises not from what happens, but from the landscape inside us. And that wisdom can find us anywhere, even in silence, even in confusion, even in the places where we least expect it.

    #453202
    Peter
    Participant

    Thanks Alessa
    I really appreciate how you keep these reflections grounded in real life. Thank you for sharing that moment; Your walk with your dog says everything, it’s beautiful.

    #453056
    Peter
    Participant

    Anita – Yes 🙂

    #453036
    Peter
    Participant

    Hi Everyone – I think I’ll leave the conversation on flow’s rise and fall here, with this Christmas blessing:

    Winter’s Grace
    Trusting the Light Within

    The pathless path lies silent,
    Not yours to claim or trace.
    The choiceless choice is given,
    A grace that leaves no trace.

    Virgin birth within the spirit
    A dawn no shadow can bind.
    As Earth in winter slumbers,
    Let your hidden light unwind.

    Become the glass unclouded,
    The mirror without a face.
    Eyes that truly open,
    Ears that deeply embrace.

    Not seeking, yet surrender,
    No grasp, no guarded view
    Transparent to transcendence,
    The Way is finding you.

    #453035
    Peter
    Participant

    Anita… even “not trying” is still a kind of trying… I don’t have an answer in words. Tao, Flow, Presence — these aren’t an understanding of the mind, but a knowing of the heart.

    #453021
    Peter
    Participant

    To simplify: I may forget or remember, but I’m learning to trust compassion as the deeper Truth that keeps shaping us. For me, Unfolding Presence is becoming a kind of faith without doctrine, creating space were compassion reveals what’s ‘True‘ and free us from beliefs can trap us in pain.

    #453020
    Peter
    Participant

    Anita, I hear how strongly your mother’s old message still echoes, pulling you back into “she was good, so I must be bad.” And yet I also see the courage in your wondering: what if my goodness doesn’t depend on her at all?

    I realize my language around Flow may have been confusing. You’ve described it as spontaneity, like a river moving moment to moment. What I’ve been pointing toward is Flow as arising and return — remembering and forgetting — while trusting that the truths we’ve realized keep shaping us even when we don’t hold them tightly.

    Still, as the story of Shang Qiukai reminds us, we can sincerely believe something that isn’t true, like “my goodness depends on mother.” That’s why I lean into compassion as a Truth as it reveals whether a belief is true or not. If a belief traps us in pain, compassion shows us it cannot be the deeper truth.

    To be candid, I find your question both confusing and challenging, because the word “goodness” doesn’t resonate with me. What does connect is the deeper sense of being enough, a wound that feels almost primal. That’s where Flow or Presence feels most alive for me: not in defining goodness, but in learning to trust that even when I forget, the truth of being enough keeps working quietly within.

    #453001
    Peter
    Participant

    Anita, if I’m hearing you correctly, ‘Flow’ takes shape for you right now through repetition and re‑evaluation, making sure realizations stay present in your awareness. That is what helps you move forward.

    For me, with a shared anxiety of forgetting, I’m experimenting with something different, resting in a realization and trusting it without needing to revisit it. I hear this isn’t where you are at the moment, and that’s perfectly okay.

    I wonder if I should use a different word than Flow to describe it. Maybe Unfolding or Presence fits better?

    What I hold for you, and for myself, is the possibility that, in time, the realizations we’ve touched, especially the sense of being enough, might feel so steady and trusted that they simply live in us without effort. Not as something to chase or reinforce, but as a quiet Truth that carries and shapes us.

    Perhaps part of the journey is learning how to live with the fear of forgetting and finding ways to let truth stay alive without needing to grasp it so tightly. And Flow, whatever word we use for it, is a something being discovered, each in our own rhythm, connected in the movement toward living more freely.

    #452989
    Peter
    Participant

    On the topic of Spirituality. For me going forward, I’ll give Richard Wagamese (Embers) the last word.

    Richard: What’s the best way to learn to be spiritual?
    Grandmother: Pack light.
    Richard: What do you mean?
    Grandmother: Carry only what you need for the journey. Don’t tire yourself out with unnecessary stuff.
    Richard: Like what?
    Grandmother: Like your head. Like your talk. Spirituality isn’t found in your head. It isn’t found in big, important-sounding words or long speeches. It’s found in silence. If you travel with your heart (stillness) and your quiet, you’ll find the way to spiritual.

    I might also add that Packing light means trusting your path without needing others to say ‘yes, you’re right’ or walk it with you.

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