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PeterParticipantAnita… even “not trying” is still a kind of trying… I don’t have an answer in words. Tao, Flow, Presence — these aren’t an understanding of the mind, but a knowing of the heart.
PeterParticipantTo simplify: I may forget or remember, but I’m learning to trust compassion as the deeper Truth that keeps shaping us. For me, Unfolding Presence is becoming a kind of faith without doctrine, creating space were compassion reveals what’s ‘True‘ and free us from beliefs can trap us in pain.
PeterParticipantAnita, I hear how strongly your mother’s old message still echoes, pulling you back into “she was good, so I must be bad.” And yet I also see the courage in your wondering: what if my goodness doesn’t depend on her at all?
I realize my language around Flow may have been confusing. You’ve described it as spontaneity, like a river moving moment to moment. What I’ve been pointing toward is Flow as arising and return — remembering and forgetting — while trusting that the truths we’ve realized keep shaping us even when we don’t hold them tightly.
Still, as the story of Shang Qiukai reminds us, we can sincerely believe something that isn’t true, like “my goodness depends on mother.” That’s why I lean into compassion as a Truth as it reveals whether a belief is true or not. If a belief traps us in pain, compassion shows us it cannot be the deeper truth.
To be candid, I find your question both confusing and challenging, because the word “goodness” doesn’t resonate with me. What does connect is the deeper sense of being enough, a wound that feels almost primal. That’s where Flow or Presence feels most alive for me: not in defining goodness, but in learning to trust that even when I forget, the truth of being enough keeps working quietly within.
PeterParticipantAnita, if I’m hearing you correctly, ‘Flow’ takes shape for you right now through repetition and re‑evaluation, making sure realizations stay present in your awareness. That is what helps you move forward.
For me, with a shared anxiety of forgetting, I’m experimenting with something different, resting in a realization and trusting it without needing to revisit it. I hear this isn’t where you are at the moment, and that’s perfectly okay.
I wonder if I should use a different word than Flow to describe it. Maybe Unfolding or Presence fits better?
What I hold for you, and for myself, is the possibility that, in time, the realizations we’ve touched, especially the sense of being enough, might feel so steady and trusted that they simply live in us without effort. Not as something to chase or reinforce, but as a quiet Truth that carries and shapes us.
Perhaps part of the journey is learning how to live with the fear of forgetting and finding ways to let truth stay alive without needing to grasp it so tightly. And Flow, whatever word we use for it, is a something being discovered, each in our own rhythm, connected in the movement toward living more freely.
PeterParticipantOn the topic of Spirituality. For me going forward, I’ll give Richard Wagamese (Embers) the last word.
Richard: What’s the best way to learn to be spiritual?
Grandmother: Pack light.
Richard: What do you mean?
Grandmother: Carry only what you need for the journey. Don’t tire yourself out with unnecessary stuff.
Richard: Like what?
Grandmother: Like your head. Like your talk. Spirituality isn’t found in your head. It isn’t found in big, important-sounding words or long speeches. It’s found in silence. If you travel with your heart (stillness) and your quiet, you’ll find the way to spiritual.I might also add that Packing light means trusting your path without needing others to say ‘yes, you’re right’ or walk it with you.
PeterParticipantAnita, no need for apologies. I really appreciate your reflections and how you connect them to your lived experience. What strikes me, though, is that sometimes the analysis seems to keep you-us circling in the past rather than moving forward. I recognize that may be a projection of a pattern I notice in myself.
Something I’ve been working on is learning to trust the realizations that come and creating space for them to shape me… a step I see missing in some of my older posts. It’s not easy, because the pull of old patterns and familiar thoughts is strong, especially with my tendency to overthink. Yet I’m learning that when I lean into one insight and live from it, even briefly, it opens up space for movement and flow.
I wonder what it might feel like for you to pick one of your own realization, maybe about goodness, or about love arising when we stop forcing, and simply rest in it, trusting it as truth that doesn’t need reinforcing with analysis or justification. Perhaps that could be a way to step into the freedom you already glimpse.
This, to me, is how I imagine Flow.. much like the Tao, moving not by effort but by trust in what already is.
PeterParticipantHi Alessa,
I really enjoyed reading your reflections on the Shang Qiukai story. The way you pulled out those Daoist themes got me thinking about the figure of the Holy Fool and that call to “be like children.” There’s a kind of sincerity that comes not from wisdom but from innocence and openness that isn’t weighed down by calculation or fear. Shang Qiukai’s accidental mastery feels a lot like that childlike trust, where desperation stripped everything away except pure sincerity.
At the same time, the Confucian critique you highlighted raises an important tension: lasting moral power must rest on knowledge and discernment, not merely on desperation or ignorance. This begs the question of how one might remain sincerely innocent while also wise.
My thought is that when belief matures into trust, when one no longer merely believes but knows their truth… there is a risk of self-deception. Yet the litmus test, I think, is compassion. If sincerity arises from compassion, it is not foolishness but authentic truth. And if wisdom is guided by compassion, it avoids becoming rigid or calculating.
So perhaps innocence and wisdom aren’t opposites at all. Innocence keeps us open, wisdom keeps us grounded, and compassion ties the two together. In that balance, sincerity becomes both childlike and enduring, something that feels authentic and ethically sound at the same time.
Copilot broke it down as a Paradox of Innocence and Wisdom
Trust vs. Belief:
– Innocence trusts without needing proof;
– wisdom knows through discernment.
Compassion bridges the two.
– Innocence without compassion risks naivety or harm.
– Wisdom without compassion risks cold calculation.Compassion ensures sincerity remains pure while wisdom remains humane.
– The Fool’s Path: Acts sincerely, but risks instability.
– The Sage’s Path: Acts wisely, but risks losing spontaneity.
The Compassionate Path: Integrates both: innocence preserved through openness, wisdom grounded in ethical clarity.
– If sincerity arises from compassion, it is not mere foolishness.
– If wisdom is guided by compassion, it avoids rigidity.Thus, compassion allows one to “fool themselves” into innocence while remaining truly wise. 🙂
On the topic of flow, I’ve found that leaning into that trust or faith, without the weight of doctrine, creates a kind of openness where compassion naturally arises and illuminates the path ahead. In that space, flow isn’t about effort or control, but about allowing sincerity and compassion to guide each step.
PeterParticipantThanks for the kind words, Tee, Alessa, and Roberta.
Tee, I love your connection to the idea of “as above, so below.”I really appreciate the seeds James and Thomas offer us, and the space they create for us to explore them.
PeterParticipantI noticed my last few posts drifted into the more abstract (as I tend to do), and I’d like to bring things back to something more grounded and lived.
Anita, you don’t need to practice Tao as if it’s something outside you. You’re already in it, and your compassion shines through in the way you do your best to be of service to others. That’s Tao moving through you, and its already wondrous .
What helped me wasn’t a practice or trying to embody anything, but trusting the truths that showed up in my life. Trusting the realizations that never seemed to “work” when I tried to make them work. Trusting that I didn’t need to force them or believe them into being. They unfolded on their own when I stopped trying to manage the process. A kind of faith, I guess, only without doctrine.
For me, I noticed a shift when I stopped saying “I believe” and started saying “I know”… The other day someone asked if I believed in the virgin birth, and before I could think my way into an answer, I felt one rise up: I knew. Not as a historical claim or a theological argument, but as a pattern of reality I’ve witnessed in my own life. A “virgin birth” was what happens whenever something new emerges without my effort, without my striving, without my fingerprints all over it. It’s the moment when I stop forcing and something unexpected, undeserved, and quietly luminous appears. It’s the wrapped gift under the tree, something I didn’t earn, didn’t orchestrate, didn’t even know to ask for.
It’s the possibility that arrives unannounced, the insight that wasn’t wrestled into existence, the grace that shows up before I’ve proven myself worthy of it. It’s the way life keeps offering beginnings that don’t depend on my mastery, only on my openness.
Even in my writing, I’ve noticed that when I stop trying to make things happen, thoughts come together on their own. Sometimes they surprise me. It feels like something new can arise without effort, a kind of inner “birth” that happens when I’m not forcing anything. That’s helped me trust what’s already true in me.
The intention of the post was simplicity but this is what emerged 🙂
PeterParticipantHi Anita
I loved the parables. It always amazes me when something simple opens a doorway beyond the words, revealing something quieter underneath.If you look back at my earliest post here years ago, you might wonder at the amount of time… Part of it, I think, is that the self quietly turned “letting go” into another practice to accomplish. Even “embodying” can become that, can’t it? Another thing to do, another way to try to get it right. What I’m seeing now is that the moment I try to embody, I’m already back in the old pattern, the self managing, adjusting, striving.
I use the word embodiment, but I have to hold it lightly, as neither noun nor verb — more like a softening into what’s already here. Not a technique, not a project, not a spiritual skill to master. Maybe that’s why I kept circling. I was trying to practice what only reveals itself when the practicing stops. Still I only catch glimpses, out of the corner of my eye, for a breath or two.
As this softened, a reflection surfaced — a kind of echo:
The Way is and is not, yet from it all arise and return.
No path can reach the Path that is pathless.
Embodied, the path dissolves — the Tao present.When the river is blocked, we carve channels called virtue. When the sky is hidden, we light lanterns called wisdom.
But the river was flowing before the channels, and the sky was shining before the lanterns.
Return to the source, and the lanterns are no longer needed.We are born upon a path, and that too is Tao. Each step a seeking, each turn a question.
Yet as long as we walk, Tao seems hidden. The horizon recedes, the seeker remains restless.The path is not the source, yet the path is not meaningless.
It is a shadow pointing toward the light, a rhythm leading to silence.
When the path dissolves, the illusion of separation fades, and what was sought is revealed as always present.When the path dissolves, the shore appears. Looking back, the way we walked is illumined.
The self whispers, “I arrived by way of the path,” – even though the river does not arrive — it flows.So, Tao pulls us back, again and again, until remembering becomes forgetting, and forgetting becomes remembering.
In that ebb and return, the Beloved smiles. The pathless path is walked, and the walker dissolves into the Way.
PeterParticipantThanks for the story Alessa I haven’t heard it before
I noticed a part of me reading Shang Qiukai’s story as if it hinted at magic or manifestation. But what stayed with me was how little he was trying to do anything at all. His actions were whole because he wasn’t divided. When doubt appeared, the effect vanished. It reminded me that embodiment isn’t about belief exerting power, it’s the ease that comes when the one trying to manage outcomes falls away. And in those moments, I’ve noticed that compassion doesn’t need to be summoned; it rises on its own, and action follows from that quiet, natural clarity.
Confucius’ words linger here too: how about if other and self are both truthful — take note of this. (I read that as transparent to the transcendent)
PeterParticipantHi Anita: I think you capture it nicely – now the question how do we move beyond the words?
What follows is today’s journal entry.
For a long time now, I’ve noticed myself circling the same inner terrain, returning to familiar thoughts, trying to name something I sensed but couldn’t quite articulate. Recently, these lines surfaced:
The Way is and is not, yet from it, all arise and return.
No path can reach the Path that is pathless…
Embodied, the path dissolves, the Tao… Presence.This morning, something softened. A small shift, quiet, almost imperceptible, opened between the words letting go and embodiment. I saw how the former, for me, had quietly become a subtle form of striving and control.
There are moments on the path when a single word reveals the hidden architecture of our inner life. Today, while reading a CAC reflection on the dark night of the soul, such a moment arrived.
The dark night often comes first as loss. It feels as though something essential has slipped away: meaning, joy, certainty, the familiar sense of God. From within the experience, it is loss. It empties us. It unravels us. It asks us to walk without the lights we once trusted.
Yet as the night deepens, another truth begins to shimmer at the edges. What felt like loss reveals itself as the falling away of what could never truly hold us. The dark night appears as loss, but its essence is not loss at all.
We often speak of letting go in such seasons. The phrase feels gentle, almost compassionate… a soft surrender, a loosening of the grip. But even here, a subtle effort remains. A quiet belief that I am the one releasing, that surrender is something I must accomplish.
And so I found myself returning again and again to that night, until another movement appeared: embodiment.
Embodiment is not loss, and not letting go. It is the quiet dissolving of the one who believed there was something to lose. Here, nothing is taken. Nothing is released. Nothing is managed or performed. Belief no longer required, dissolves into something… Free.
What remains is presence, unforced, unguarded, whole.
The dark night may begin as loss and pass through the language of letting go, but embodiment is the gentle undoing of the one who thought anything needed to be surrendered. And in that undoing, a deeper presence emerges, simple, grounded, embodied.
PeterParticipantA woman approached the Buddha and confessed: “I don’t know how to practice, how to be spiritual.”
The Buddha asked gently: “Is there anyone you love?”
She replied: “Yes, my newborn child.”
The Buddha said: “Then start there. Care for him with mindfulness, with compassion. Let that love be your practice.”Sometimes I have the sense that “spirituality” has become too rigid a word.
Spirituality is not a mountain to climb, nor a word to master. It is the quiet reflection that opens us to mystery, and the tender hand that pours love into the ordinary. Begin where your heart already leans, in the care you give, in the breath you notice, in the child’s laughter that needs no name. There, the Way is alive. There, the Beloved is already waiting.
PeterParticipantStudent: Master, I see two paths before me. One speaks of truth, of patterns beyond my control.
The other speaks of care, of tending to what is fragile. They do not seem to meet.Master: Do not divide the river. Its current is both the unseen source and the hand that cups water.
Truth is the flow, care is the drinking. Without one, the other is dry.Student: But how can I know which is real? Is safety an illusion, or is it born of love?
Master: Safety is a shadow cast by the Beloved. Sometimes it appears as questioning, sometimes as nurturing.
Both are mirrors of the same sun. Do not cling to the shadow, step into the light.Student: Then the two paths are one?
Master: Yes. The reed grows because the wind bends it, and because the gardener waters it.
Mystery and care are not rivals. They are two notes of the same song.
PeterParticipantHi Anta
I think you captured something real in describing the experience of falling in and out of flow.
Reading your post, I wondered if Tao might sometimes be mistaken for flow itself, or treated as something to attain, as if staying in flow would make everything wonderful. (that reading was a projection of mine, a something I noticed within me)
Tao is not the flow, but that from which flow arises, holding both our moments of presence and our forgetting, our joys and sorrows.
Noticing the rain, for a moment you we are the rain and perhaps the breath softens. Then the mind, the heart, or the body begins to ask: What is this? How do I sound? – And perhaps another part notices this questioning and laughs. Life doesn’t ask us to remain in stillness. It is, I feel, enough that we notice, and return home from time to time.
I was wondering what you thought of the suggesting that over the years we have been circling the challenge of taking our realizations past something that we know?
The following is yesterdays journal entry.
What does it mean to truly live the values we cherish, rather than just speak of them?
I grew up in a community rich with beliefs. From within, those convictions felt certain; yet from the outside, one might wonder if they were truly lived. My own frustration has often been noticing how far we seemed from embodying the values we proclaimed.
Perhaps this disconnect is not deliberate, but an unconscious pattern, treating the spiritual path as law as if law was the source itself. I know this pattern in myself: when I cling to the path as though it were the origin, I end up frustrated, because the place it points toward cannot be reach though law.
True embodiment flows from the source. It is not born of rigid adherence to forms, but of inner alignment with what those forms signify. When the source is forgotten, the path becomes hollow, a ritual without life, a map without terrain. But when the source is encountered, the path becomes luminous, not as a substitute for reality, but as its reflection….
The spiritual path matters, but only as a signpost. It cannot give what it points to. To live the values we cherish, we must return, if only for a breath, to the origin, the wellspring from which all paths arise. When we drink from that source, the path ceases to be a burden and becomes a natural expression of life itself.
A Day in Flow (update)
Peter rose with the morning light. He poured tea, watching steam rise and fade. He walked to work, heard a child laugh, and joined without thinking. At the office, he answered what he could, listened when words came sharp, and peace returned.
That evening, he cooked, hummed, and watched the sky darken. Nothing extraordinary happened. Yet everything was whole.
The path was not effort. It was the source flowing through him, turning ordinary moments into quiet grace. -
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