Hi Helcat

I enjoy your ramblings 🙂 and happy that you tolerate mine.

I’m curious about your experience of joy, if you would like to describe it?

For me the experience of happiness is fleeting, a gift of a moment while Joy or Bliss goes deeper and is more durable. Its not lost when the sun sets.
Where I tend to try to cling to happiness for Joy that urge isn’t present…
I’ve been using the words ‘Bitter Sweet’ to describe it, for me, Joy has a taste…
Where happiness has a giddiness about it, joy has a somber yet content note. LOL Like a good wine…. Happiness is like a sweet wine easy to drink, enjoyed in the moment, but easily forgotten. Where Joy is a complex wine with body, various notes (emotions), presently lingers, where just a sip is enough for you to remember for a life. (I imagine that to be so as I’m not a fan of wine – but metaphor works, maybe…

“What happens to the moment when the sun sets?”

I tend to see language as metaphor….
There is for me a difference between Meditation on a sunset and when the sun has set.
Meditating on a sunset, feeling calm, content maybe even happy verses Meditating when the sun has set, and you find yourself in the dark – metaphorical dark – where the world and fears swirling around you. In “darkness” I imagine I might be able to maintain a calm stillness… maybe, but not happiness where if I succeed in remaining calm and still in all that motion, I may even experience as Joy.

I had a teacher say that its easy to be calm and happy sitting quietly by a lake with no one around, not so easy in the middle of rush hour and being honked at. Its good to practice by a lake but a point of the practice is learning to take the lake with you wherever you find yourself. Or something like that.

😊 As a parent you’re going to get a lot of practice

“Today my son learned to walk and with that came absolute chaos. Rolling with it is important. But sometimes you just need to stop and breathe for a bit.”

The image that created for me made me smile… and I image that this moment, when remembered years from now will bring a smile to your face. Joy and or happiness…

Hi Anita

That was a very thoughtful and helpful break down – thanks. I feel were on to something.
As I read through the dialog I’ve been asking if it possible to move past realizing a truth and living/being it. – ‘Joy, life living through you.”?
I feel the perspective on sorrow and discomfort is a important realization.

The following new journal entry was written before your breakdown

I’ve been thinking about the space between the thought and the thinker, the observer and the observed, the experience and the experience. How we fill the space with language, measurements, judgments… constructs unintentionally creating discomfort, then using language and measurement to relieve us from the discomfort. We contract ourselves in a seemingly endless loop.

I wonder if its in the filing of space between observer and the observed that the illusion of time is created?
The created time and space that can only be memory and so the past, or a future that imagines it can change the past or life to be other then it is. Perhaps the space become time may be better thought of as a playground if only, so I don’t become trapped in it….

In my early journal writings, there is a quote by Kierkegaard who argued that “The most painful state of being is remembering the future, particularly the one you will never have. ” I realized that this is a truth and noted how most of the hurt in the stories arose from an imagined future that would or could not ever be… its not just sad morning the future that cannot be, it’s exhausting if you fail to let it go…

I note as Anita has shown from my past writings that what I have been seeking is an answer to what I now see as the ‘problem’ of the illusion of space between the observer and the observed. The exercise of removing measurements of labels and now I think language itself?
(“We seldom realize that our most private thoughts and emotions are not actually our own. For we think in terms of languages and images which we did not invent, but which were given to us by our society“. – Alan Watts)

How we love to fill that space with language. I recall now how many creation/beginning stories start with words being spoken? “in the beginning was the word”

Circling, always circling… to what end?

I recall the thought of the martial artist and dancer training and training until their reactions were responses were no thought (no space) was required…. that its when the dancers ‘forgets the rules that they are dancing, the seeing paradox that they had to learn first before they could forget.

A story told by Krishnamurti
In ancient China before an artist began to paint anything – a tree, for instance – he would sit down in front of it for days, months, years, it didn’t matter how long, until he was the tree. He did not identify himself with the tree, but he was the tree. This means that there was no space between him and the tree, no space between the observer and the observed, no experience experiencing the beauty, the movement, the shadow, the depth of a leaf, the quality of colour. He was totally the tree, and in that state only could he paint.

Days, months, years… measurements… My thought is that moving from words of understanding to being that which is sought will not be an act of will, of trying… it would be a happening?
As a type 5 my playground, my happy place, is the search for understanding… unintentionally creating days, months, years… but to be an artist… ?

Hi Anita

Grate break down and example

My mistake, I now realize (for the first time) is that I remained contracted, minimal in the face of pain for way, way longer than such strategy is effective….

“The hope that emerges from this process becomes the source of deep joy. Unlike shallow happiness, this joy is not easily shaken because it is rooted in the strength and character developed through enduring suffering. This joy does not disappoint because it is not dependent on external circumstances. It is a sustaining, inner strength that can endure even in the face of grief and sorrow.”

Love that

Hi Anita

That’s were I hope to get to with my stories, especially my old ones. I like that in such a space no justifications is needed, no explaining ourselves to ourselves or others.
I think that sometimes I heave held on to the hurt with a semi consensus hope that holding on to the hurt, hurts the one who hurt me. I’m good with releasing that.

Synchronicity happened across this quote yesterday and thought it applied why we might do this exercise with our stories. I’m curious as to how you would parse it.

“The difference between shallow happiness and a deep, sustaining joy is sorrow.
Happiness lives where sorrow is not. When sorrow arrives, happiness dies. It can’t stand pain.
Joy, on the other hand, rises from sorrow and therefore can withstand all grief.
Joy, is the transfiguration of suffering into endurance, and of endurance into character, and of character into hope.
The hope that has become our joy does not (as happiness must for those who depend up on it) disappoint us.”
― Walter Wangerin Jr

Hi HelCat

Thanks for the update. I also find the practice of writing the story with the emotional measuring labels and then re-writing with the non-labels as away to get clarification especially before I’m going to then engage in conversation.

I guess it just means taking the emotional intensity away? To me, as an ex-language teacher all of language is labelling. Every single word has unique definitions.

I read something about Buddha nature and it suggested that Buddha nature was to approach things with an open mind, curious, with compassion and non-judgmental. It seems to me that this is suited to a ‘non-labelling’ writing style.

I’m about to go full Type 5 so apologies 🙂

Your right all words are labels, symbols that point to, construct, describe…
I think the biggest error we make in life is to mistake the ‘map for the territory’ the words and language for the that which it can only point to.

I feel this is why the labeling of a emotion often creates a experience of the emotion. For example we experiencing dis-ease, label it as sadness and we become sad, and more often then not get get stuck in the experience sadness. Then their is a tendency to label that experience as bad and anyone associated with the event becomes bad and we get our victim villein stories. A self feeding cycle of dis-ease.

Language is also dependent on duality as is ego consciousness. When we speak, when we measure, when we label we create duality, consciousness, the constructs we live by. Buddha nature transcends duality and constructs…. returning to stillness, silence , Love, non-duality – the Eternal Now, the source from which the experience arose. By Non-labeling we create the space to return to the source.

As a exercise, re-writing old stories without the emotional labels and measurements such as bad and good, I feel it creates a space to un-stick ourselves. This does not mean blocking out the emotions or experience but paradoxically the space to honestly feel the experience. After I re-wrote some of my old stories I would sit with them and let my self feel. I found my self becoming still and silent… often I would noticed a heaviness somewhere. I’ve read that we often hold on to our experiences within our bodies. For now I’m just noticing.

Hi Anita

Thanks so much for taking a second reading. I would never intentionally invalidate your experience. Sadly I can be clumsy with my words.

I am finding the dialog helpful.

Me: “In hindsight I’m wondering if I felt that I needed to feel the emotions and stay angry to justify the boundaries I was creating. (I notice today, not always healthy boundaries)”

You “you mean that you made some decisions in the heat of the moment, driven by anger and hurt, without considering the possibility of reconciliation, or the impact of the decisions on your life long-term”

Not quite, though I’ve made plenty of heat of the moment decisions based on anger and hurt.
What I was questioning was, now that years have passed, if I was still doing that. If I was retelling a old story’s then using that negative energy that would arise to maintain current boundaries. Realizing that boundaries that need the energy of anger and hurt to maintain might not be healthy boundaries. That said, in the heat of the moment that may be part of the process in developing boundaries but that process is exhausting and I want to do better.

Sadly my journal clearly shows a tendency to hold on to the stories (with the labels) then using the anger and hurt that the labels created to maintain boundaries… Seeing that I also have to question whether at some level, I feel a need to justify my boundaries, which I don’t want to do that any more. The act of justification also being exhausting along with suggesting I’m not being honest with myself in some way.

When reading your non-labeled version of your story. That’s I saw a possibility, a space, to let go, to get to a place were I needing the story. In the non-labeled version I saw a person who did the work and created healthy boundaries that didn’t require any further explanation, exploration, justification, labels or re-telling. Bitter, as the hurt is and was real but sweet because, having emerged out the other side, better connected to the true self. The hurt and the labels no longer having the the hold they had.

That’s the hope on going through the non labeling exercise though as in all things, timing matters. I think I came across my old journal as now I’m ready.

Hope that made more sense.

Have a Good weekend. FYI I stay away from computers on weekends

Hi Anita

Your and Helcat response had me looking though my journal for the labels and measuring I applied to my stories. I was about to add a statesmen at how bad I was/am at labeling my experiences but the use of the word ‘bad’ suggests a label and a failure, when the truth as I see it today is that it isn’t/wasn’t a bad or good ability it just was/is me at the time.

I recently watched a documentary call The Stories We tell – by Sarah Polley. “a investigation into the elusive truth buried within the contradictions of a family of storytellers…”.

The stories told center on Sarah’s mother who had passed away years ago, who it turns out had a affair which resulted in Sarah. What struck me as her dad, brothers, sisters, mother’s friends… told their story’s was the lack of labeling, no blame, no wring of hands, no existentialist angst, no this was bad this was good.

I imagine myself or others learning about such things about their mother making them question their sense of self, and all that drama. Maybe that happened… but if it did they moved passed it. These were stories about a mother who was mother and a human being with dreams and faults and gifts… and that they loved. It was clear she influenced who they were but her story didn’t define them.

Not sure where I’m going with this… What struck me was how desperate we are to tell stories and make sense of them, but that we don’t get to do that having all the information at hand. What struck me was how we can let others peoples stories define our own but that we don’t need to do that. Doing that is a choice. At the end of the documentary my though was that the story about their mother the story tellers arrived at mattered, really mattered but that it also didn’t.

Sarah Polley choice in imagery and camera shots… she would hold the camera focused on the person while they waited in silence, to begin or process a end… and you could see…. them… all of it in their faces, the shots pierced the heart… the bitter the sweet, and it was beautiful in all its messiness, they were beautiful in their discomfort of sharing.

I could imagine people watching the documentary and labeling the actions of this and that person, or event, imagining how angry they might be if this happened to them… but I wonder to what end? And they would have missed the beauty. I can’t stop wondering why we label our stories as we do, or measure our experiences as we do, if perhaps were afraid of that kind of naked messy beauty. Have I missed the beauty?

I was about to delete the this post thinking it didn’t fit in with the thread, as this would be a new and not old journal entry. But then perhaps it does fit. As I go back over the old stories the old journal entries that I say I’m not looking to ‘fix’… fix in place? fix as in change, reshape?… but perhaps see with different eyes.. can I tell the stories today without the labels and let them be as they were/are/will be?

Can I allow the messiness of myself to be beautiful? LOL Why do I feel a need to label is so?