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  • #434876
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    I apologize for the late reply to your thorough and thoughtful response.

    “he said please and thank you and all other social-butterfly expressions, but didn’t mean any of them, forming a superficial persona, saying all the right things but not meaning them, remaining on the surface, avoiding depth.”

    “I think that his elated, optimistic, excited expressions are not genuine. They lack depth. He is doing his social lubrication/ public relations kind of communication with you.”

    My whole life, and perhaps a personality of my soul is that I am, sensitive to people being fake. When someone is fake with me, it makes me feel cold inside, and void of my desire to connect, in fact I would rather leave. But I learned this “superficial persona,” and I learned it well enough to get through highschool, somewhat ok. Outside of my experience being bullied on my school soccer team. I think my mom had a superficial persona as well, but my dad’s is/was a lot more successful in social situations. My mom has an “extroverted persona” but when she is not in public it goes away. I learned this as well. I learned both of my parents superficial personas, making me appear socially equipped. But I learned this persona wasn’t attracting authentic people, so I have been learning to undo it, and in fact stop caring how I come across to every single person. I have gotten much better, but still have moments with the people closer to me, where I wonder what they are thinking of me. But I do my best to consciously refuse to act a certain way to get some perceived approval from them. I am proud of this 🙂

     

    “your father and my mother have this in common: growing up invisible and angrily, demanded excessive visibility from their daughters, your father,  during his “house cleaning” sessions; my mother, during her poor-me, histrionic sessions.
    In my mother’s excessive demands that I see her caused me to set my eyes on her, to not see me or anyone, but her. “
    As I read this I realized more about myself. My mom also has/had these poor-me sessions, demanding I see her, and I am now realizing, consequently not seeing myself. Until I was in 8th grade, 13 and becoming a woman, I didn’t receive too much attention from my dad. Pre-13 my dad played with us like kids, but was emotionally and at times physically absent. He would play with us but not be present. It was in this time I believe my mom used me as an emotional venting place. I would escape her by playing with my siblings. After 13 my dad became more strict on places I could go, things I would wear and all this. Then 16 when I moved in with him, is when he began to demand this excessive visibility from me.
    “a fighting sea turtle (sea turtles chase, bite, hit with their shells, butt heads, literally.. so I read).”
    hahaha, made me laugh out loud in this cafe!
    “patience, young grasshopper.. I mean, young sea turtle, lol. (and patience, anita). The voice does get weaker. It’s not loud, and it doesn’t take center stage like it used to.”
    🙂
    “But his core emotional unseen experience was cemented within him before you were born. It was not, and is not in your power to dissolve his cement.
    Interesting, how by demanding that you see him, he created your core emotional unseen experience, about which we talked in the past, an experience that’s in the process of being dissolved, good job, Seaturtle!”
    I’d never thought of my dad as feeling unseen, until reading this. But you are so right. When I was home, just recently I had lunch with him where he randomly started to defend himself, about things that I had never said. He was defending himself from a politically correct sort of stand, as if he was being judged by others, and that his (very real) hard work was not understood or appreciated. It was in this moment I realized his defensiveness had nothing to do with me, I had just gotten home! It was not mine to solve, but I still tried, and his facial expression made me believe he could see what I was saying was true. I told him what those people thought, as far as how hard he worked, simply did not matter. I was afraid he would just vent more to me, but instead he silenced and we began a new topic of conversation. 🙂 It was a moment I feel like he could see me. These moments have been occurring in the past year, since I moved states away from home. He didn’t see me for most of my life, but as I heal from this core experience, I believe he also wants to heal and I think we may be able to help eachother!
    “Your father created this sensitivity in you (of being selfish) and I’m guessing that your sisters became aware of this sensitivity over the years, willing to use it against you..?”
    Yes, especially one of my sisters who has a talent for poking peoples buttons and insecurities.
    I say to the sea turtle: sea turtle, when you are close enough to a shark, and you look into the shark’s eyes, you will not see your authentic self. You will see a predator approaching his/ her meal.
    I will close my imagery with a dolphin-anita swimming side by side with a sea turtle in a blue-purple deep sea.
    Dear wise dolphin-anita, I appreciate and understand the imagery
    thank you and please stay swimming close <3
    I truly feel bad about your thoughtful message getting left without a response, please forgive me.
    Seaturtle
    #434874
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Helcat,

    I am so happy your soul had a bizarre level of hope, certainly not a trait of a soul’s first time around the block!

    I like your question about my soul’s personality. I came up with this, my soul has always sought understanding of others and of myself, I have always sought self improvement, and connection, at times at whatever cost.

    There were some personality traits like wisdom and an optimism that I can creatively make it in this world, not necessarily a cut and dry path my parents tried to get me to follow. But then it occurred to me, my sister has those similar traits. Which makes me wonder if they are environmental personality traits. Are there any concepts in Buddhism that speak on souls and siblings?

    Tibetan Buddhism sounds so interesting I will have to read up on it. To choose the realm we reincarnate to next, sounds great. But then I read “all options other than the human realm are considered bad,” I am curious about this. I am surprised because this would mean the most enlightened souls are here on our earth in human form? Or perhaps they go to “bad” realms to make them better?

    “I have a ridiculous hope that for me one day the pain will go away entirely.”

    This is not ridiculous, sounds like your inner child soul speaking 😉

     

    Seaturtle

    #434844
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Good morning,

     

    I have been reading “the Seat of the Soul” by Gary Zukav

    “All the energy of the soul does not incarnate. To incarnate, the soul creates a personality from those parts of itself that it wants to heal in the physical environment, and from those parts of itself that it lends to the process of healing in that lifetime.”

    “So powerful is the energy of the soul that it could not advance into a physical form without, literally, exploding that form. In the creation of personality, the soul calibrates parts of itself, reduces parts of itself, to take on the human experience. Your higher self is that aspect of your soul that is in you, but is not the fullness of your soul. It is a smaller soul self. Therefore, “higher self” is another term for “soul,” yet the soul is more than the higher self.”

    “Intuition is a walkie-talkie, so to speak, between the personality and the soul. This happens through the higher self.”

    It is making me ask myself, “what is my soul here to heal?” “does the personality have its own set of wounds it needs to heal? wounds that were accumulated in this life? or was I born with my wounds.”

    I’ve spent a long time, practicing self awareness and healing wounds of my personality. When he says the soul creates a personality, does he mean we were born into this world with our personality?

    Are/have any of you reading this become familiar with the process of healing your soul? I wonder if what needs to heal becomes clearer, and what is the light at the end of the tunnel like, after you have healed an aspect of your soul?

     

    Seaturtle

    #434769
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Dear Helcat,

    So tell me if you think I am interpreting this wrong. But after reading your description of schemas, mine in being unnoticed and overlook, so that is comfortable to me. I remember learning this concept in psychology, and thought I was conscious of my schemas. I used to think they were being controlled and told what to do. But now as I get to know my parents more and reflect on my childhood I am realizing it was much more. It was emotional neglect, soul-less, cold, arguing, laughter, tv, vacations and games with my siblings, the best part.

    ” Once you have lived together and they have experienced hardship. That is when you have a good understanding of someone’s character as people are at their worst during times of hardship.”

    I appreciate this observation.

    Wise words “Intuition is calmer.”

    I imagine that dynamic during disagreements would be because of your father. I am imagining that as a child when your father was angry you just wanted it to stop and you were scared and wanted a hug. But he was also unstable and not safe for you during those times. Would you agree with this?

    Yes. Interesting though, to get to the safe place, a hug, I did different things with my dad than with N. With my dad I would say something to make him feel empathy for me, in those moments I would bring up what I was dealing with in life at that time. For example he got upset with me for being too messy (as he did often) after leaving a very small thing out of order, or leaving my homework on the counter. He would confront me and I would feel so bad, apologize, then would bring up something bad that had happened between me and my mom that was affecting me emotionally. He would empathize with me then the space would feel much safer to me. With N, first of all he would never be the one to confront me. I was always initiating the conversations about how we felt. He would be passive aggressive so I would tell him his behavior was making me sad, and ask him why he was behaving that way, if it was something I had done, to which he rarely had an answer for. Usually gaslighting me telling me my intuition about his passive aggression was wrong. This was that emotional discomfort with him, the moment I wanted to erase what I had said to begin with and skip to a hug, so I usually would. How long before I caved would vary, but usually I would just drop it to feel emotional safety again. He rewarded me for dropping it.. rewarded with warmth and closeness.

    So then my solution is to learn to be calm during confrontation and not feel emotionally unsafe. Why do I feel emotionally unsafe, how do I self regulate my emotions in those moments.. ?

    I think the difficulty is to stay present when triggered during a disagreement. It takes a lot of practice and willingness to be vulnerable, being open to be hurt, but at the same time trust that the other person doesn’t want to hurt you.

    I read this after I wrote the above. Staying present sounds painful. I am calm now though and still feel like N wanted to hurt me. Like he was punishing me for not being a certain way. How he handled the breakup certainly supports that. Do you think people act out of character when in pain of a breakup, or that it in fact reveals some of their personality? I am wondering because I wonder if my not trusting him was about me or about him. Same with my dad, if not trusting him was about me or him. Do I have trust issues with everyone or just those who are actually untrustworthy.

     

    I celebrated fourth of July by spending time with friends outside, watching other people’s fireworks!

    Ditto, I enjoy talking to you as well! I am doing good, I am trying to juggle my internal healing while still taking care of things in the outside world. I wish cars, money, housing and food weren’t necessities haha. How have you been? and your baby, doing much better now?

    Seaturtle

    #434764
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    Thank you for your thoughts. I want to heal my wound and thank you for your exercise recommendation. I will start it today.

     

    Seaturtle

    #434763
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Anita,

    “And why, you might ask, did I not join the festivities? Because I have Covid, 3rd day now (Covid face emoji, if there is such an emoji).”

    As I read your message I thought your fourth of July sounded wonderful. I saw many eagles when I was visiting the PNW recently. And it must not have been too hot where you were because I was outside on the fourth and it was hard to not constantly think about the heat. I am so sorry you have covid. How are you feeling today?

     

    Seaturtle

    #434715
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Dear Helcat,

    “I think it is apt because sea turtles are peaceful, gentle souls, they live to a long age which represents wisdom. They are adventurous and free spirited. You share all of these qualities. 😊

    I like all those things! Thank you 🙂

    “You might not feel it and see it as much yet. But since you first message you’ve grown a lot. You’re still the same awesome person, but you are trusting your intuition more and finding your voice. It’s lovely to see. Long may it continue!”

    Cheers to this. On my recent trip home I also had some family members tell me similar things. That they see growth happening.

    I don’t want this to let me avoid being in another relationship, but I have this new fear that came along with the positive growth, and it is that I will lose myself in a relationship again. But that would have to mean I stop listening to my intuition again, so my solution has been to really get in line with my intuition so I don’t ignore it repetitively, again. Relationships create a barrier between me and my intuition.. I wonder why this is and if it is possible to get my intuition to always be at my forefront.. ?

    Anita, I’d also love your thoughts on this!

     

    “Ah well Buddhism has a great deal to say about attachment. I would recommend looking into that side of it as well. I’m sure you’ll have lots of fun.”

    I will thanks for the recommendation.

    “It is honestly very hard to maintain a warm demeanour in difficult situations especially with people that aren’t necessarily trusted.”

    I have an intuition question. When we don’t trust someone, how do we tell if it is because of our own trauma or it is our intuition?

    I actually have similar difficulties. For me, it’s the feeling of vulnerability that I don’t like. I feel very soft and squishy during disagreements, easily hurt. I used to think that the only way to protect myself was to emotionally distance myself from the situation.”

    This is how I feel in hard conversations with a loved one as well. It’s strange, it’s like there is a part of me that really wants to skip to the end of the conversation and hug. But I cannot accept a hug during the disagreement, I feel repulsed by closeness, but I love closeness so I get irritated that I feel that way. I would get upset with N because he (the situation with him) made me feel repulsed by closeness, yet I knew that is all I really needed/wanted. I think it was this contradiction that was the most painful part, and I wanted out of that space so badly, and so did he, that we didn’t truly finish many disagreements and instead skipped to the end.

    “I read something that basically said that if you approach a relationship with negativity it will not heal. Whereas if you approach a relationship with positivity, the person will be inspired by your character and respond in kind. Not entirely true. But that is what ancient Chinese philosophy is like. 😂

    It is certainly optimistic. If only positivity was all it took to heal a relationship.

    Did you have a good fourth of July?

    Seaturtle

    #434716
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Dear Helcat,

    I wrote a response to you that is “awaiting moderation,” I am not sure why! But just so you know 🙂

    Seaturtle

    #434714
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    “When you don’t reply to me for an couple of weeks, I think that you don’t have a desire to talk to me, or you have the desire to not talk to me. At times I felt a bit hurt, a bit angry.”

    I appreciate your honesty. I am sorry you have felt that way. Those certainly aren’t my reasons, I think about you often as I would a close friend. I think the struggle is it is a long distance friendship. If we met in person I am sure we would talk for a few hours, back and forth, the same amount we get across in several days here. I don’t have anyone else I talk to virtually like this or for that matter have a need to open my computer more than once a week. Last summer when we spoke daily, I was on my computer daily for work. I suspected you feeling a certain way and just wanted to avoid any built up feelings because I would like to stay friends! You are important to me.

    “When you say “silent and cold”, you mean silently hurt and angry?”

    I would say silently hurt for sure, I wouldn’t say “angry” it was more like disappointment and frustration that he didn’t have more care for my feelings. Because he knew it bothered me when he answered the phone while we were spending planned time together, but he preferred answering the phone to my feelings. That was an issue in general was him repeating things after I had already told him they hurt my feelings, like answering the phone, being late or smoking with our roommate as I fell asleep alone.

    “– wait, these are your words or mine (all of it, with warmth substituting the feeling of being ALIVE (my words).. ?”

    I was using your words to help me express mine 🙂 the layout of what you said and content had alot of similarities to me so I thought it would be a helpful exercise for me. I bolded the words that I changed for my experience.

    “you are mentally healthier following the breakup, congrats!!!”

    Thank you 🙂

    Did you celebrate the fourth of July yesterday? if so what did you do?

     

    Seaturtle

    #434563
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    To your June 17th post,

    I do wonder how much I have in common with an actual seaturtle. And yes, I very intentionally have time before having my own hatchlings. I want to make sure I am swimming in the correct direction, to the right beach.

    Seaturtle

    #434562
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Hello Anita,

    I miss the time where we frequently talked, I feel bad that my schedule, since then has made my responses less frequent. Does this make you feel badly? When I am not on the site for a couple weeks, does it make you feel like I am selfish, using you, or cold?

    Also I apologize for my horribly grammatical phone message here a couple weeks ago. I won’t use my phone again because my autocorrect changed some words and it is just a small typing platform, but you did great with it!

     

    To your post June 12th

    “Let me ask you first: did you behave coldly and selfishly with him- Sometimes? Often? Rarely? Never?”

    Not never. I was cold when I felt cold. There were rare occasions where he would do something, and I would then be so bothered (like picking up the phone mid conversation). And after he did it, I found myself feeling cold, infact I disliked the feeling so much I almost wanted to just pretend not being cold, but as you know, I display my authentic feelings and in those moments I went silent and cold, while being kind and straight forward. I am glad you asked me this question so I could reflect, him calling me cold sometimes is accurate.

    June 13th you wrote:

    “…my true self was loving and trusting and felt ALIVE, but then, it was terribly abused by my mother, twisted into knots and generally emptied of the feeling of being ALIVE”

    It is helpful for me to hear about your experiences as it helps me express mine. For me ‘my true self was warm, but then was terribly abused, twisted into knots and generally emptied of the feeling of warmth. Leading to me feeling cold. My dad was also paranoid and emotionally detached from me, angry at me.. And I also feel it created and angry, judgemental and misguided loyalty. Everyone hurt him so I hated everyone including myself. All with the purpose of his acceptance, “togetherness.”

    “The danger he saw was that ‘through this false self, the infant builds up a false set of relationships, and by means of introjections even attains a show of being real’, while, in fact, merely concealing a barren emptiness behind an independent-seeming façade”. “

    After reading about false selves being created by needy parents who deprive their child’s spontaneity, I am tracing back to times I remember feeling my spontaneity was shut down, and times my parents were needy. I am trying to put together how/ which experiences I went through created this “barren emptiness.” It honestly feels like I have only been out of this “show of being real,” since I was 20 years old. I certainly had people and moments I was real with, but through my childhood I remember very clearly feeling like my real self was too awkward to be, so I just behaved like what I thought would blend in, or be accepted. When I started dating in fact, at about 20, I promised myself to be my real self. But I was out of practice. There are parts of my real self that I have not been comfortable to be around certain people. In the past few years I have challenged myself to really be myself, but it is delicate and if rejected too much I put it back on the shelf.. I felt the majority of my real self was rejected and judged by N. It is making me wonder if he only appeared to accept me in the beginning, then when he got tired it started to show that he didn’t anymore.. why would this happen? There is no question I did my best to show him me, and did not receive that from him. I honestly don’t think I ever saw his truest self, either him hiding it or not even knowing it himself..  It is out of the relationship, the past 6 months that I have been able to be my real self, I am not afraid to be rejected by new people and find it so exciting to find people who are real with me. That attitude has lead me to new relationships with new people and even some family members. If you’d like to ignore the note I made connecting this to my relationship with N I would completely understand, I almost deleted it wondering if it was only redundant and shouldn’t let myself be so curious about him the relationship still.

    Seaturtle

    #433787
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    Can I just say that “This is the first time EVER that I am typing a post using my phone, I don’t know how to copy and paste. Or how to find an exclamation mark, etc. Nonetheless, this is history in the making, znd it is done on your thread.” is my favorite message of yours I have ever read 😂

     

    Seaturtle

    #433786
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Oh my gosh Anita! I have not yet read the messages, but I saw emojis on your post and I was so excited!

    Seaturtle

    #433773
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    “…surrendering to what I cannot change, which first takes SEEING that which I don’t like (and cannot change). Connecting this to N, maybe you can add Surrender to the list of the stages of a breakup that you wrote about in your journal entry (May 13).”

    I agree, surrendering takes seeing what you don’t like, which is the sacrifice to seeing things as they actually are. I have certainly been attempting to surrender to the stages of grieving a breakup. Surrender without letting it take me over. I feel like it has taken me over a couple times.

    “Seeing him clearly and then surrendering to the truth of what you see…seeing him clearly is seeing that he didn’t see you…He told you that he loved you, but he can’t tell you who.. you are.”

    You are so wise with your words. I think what Helcat said describes what has been holding me back from fully surrendering to this truth: “And people with empathy listen and reflect, wondering if that person was right when we are told something cruel. Particularly so, when there is underlying trauma that the message aligns with.” There is part of me that thinks if I surrender that he couldn’t see me completely, then I am ignorant to the thought that I have problem I need to fix.. I give attention to cruel things he said, especially things that underlying trauma aligns with. Him calling me selfish, cold and that I made him feel used. Those are things my father also told me. I don’t want to be those things, do you think those could be false selves? Because if they are, then he saw them.. What do you think about the concept of the people we meet in life are mirrors into ourselves? I don’t like my reflection looking at him, does that make it wrong?

    “Seaturtle, authoring a book one day, with a title like People who don’t See the Ones they claim to Love: The Hope for healing Human Blindness. Something like that.”

    I love this. I hope I exert great things into this universe that can reach and help others.

    “(1) he did not see you enough, partly because he is stoned much of the time, and (2) your craving to be seen has been intense, and when you felt unseen, you overreacted, emotionally and often, behaviorally as well (the overreaction started at the very beginning of the relationship with N, on the 3rd date; it’s not a reaction to who N is, it’s something you brought with you into the relationship).”

    Yes I believe this is all true and I agree is something for me to further process with therapy. I feel close to finding a therapist. In fact this morning I had a serendipitous moment where I met someone, hopefully a new friend. I was staring into the sun with my eyes closed, outside a cafe, cause I had just read that that can improve your nights sleep. When I opened my eyes he was smiling at me and I explained what I was doing. We ended up in this very high conscious level conversation. He brought up how helpful his therapist has been and I mentioned my search for one. He ended up telling me she helps him process blockages and recommended her to me! Maybe it is right, maybe not, but I do think I am approaching a therapist. 🙂

    Seaturtle

    #433772
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Helcat,

    I forgot to respond to your question “I don’t know if you felt like you were thinking about the relationship when you didn’t want to?”

    The answer is yes. I have also felt myself talking about it here and with others when I haven’t truly wanted to. But I recently heard something from a book that stuck with me, the author said he asks himself ‘would you rather know what your mind has to say or have the opportunity to experience an absence of the personal mind.’ From it I created a sort of mantra I have been repeating to myself when thoughts of the relationships come or an urge to speak it comes, I say in my mind ‘I would rather experience a quiet mind than go down all these mind trails and visions of “what if this, what if that.” ‘ In the book the author pointed out that what our personal mind is yapping about is statistically insignificant because it is based on so many “what ifs.”

    Seaturtle

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