Dear Anita,

“You’ve been asking this to-be-or-not-to-be question since about November 2022, and still asking this question in November 2023, a whole year of asking and debating.”

I love you phrasing this in Shakespeare! It makes me not feel alone in this place, to be or not to be…

“Since I already did all the thinking last night, I’ll jump straight to my answer/ my suggestion: leave the relationship. Being conflicted about it for so long, and for close to half of the relationship is reason enough to leave it.”

This response makes me feel free. But it also makes me sad and makes me wonder if I incorrectly portrayed N in order to get this freeing answer. I have tried to be unbiased, but that is obviously impossible. My mom and sisters all think he is a great match, even my friends don’t understand me when I tell them I am not sure and certainly have doubts. Even my boss! N has done favors for the art gallery I work in and my boss thinks N is the most ideal man, tells me all the time how lucky we were to find eachother … It all definitely makes me question myself, but even through all of those doubts of separating from N, this statement is true : ” there is fear of leaving the relationship (finding out that your expectations were indeed too high and regretting leaving the relationship) and there is fear of staying in the relationship and missing possible great opportunities outside the relationship.” 

I honestly wish it was N, I really do. After all, when I was young I prayed that I would meet my life partner young, so we could grow together, which is a main reason I have sat in “to be or not to be” for so long. The thought of ending it with N scares me, and I hope the freeing sensation isn’t a lie. What if that freeing sensation I imagine feeling, doesn’t happen and instead it is just that, “finding out that your expectations were indeed too high and regretting leaving the relationship.”

I know that an aspect of leaving the relationship, is the good moments that you remember. Like when we were at that cabin, and he helped me through the panic attack I had about my outfit and we felt so connected when we were out there alone… I have seen glimpses of N that I would want for the rest of my life. uh to be or not to be!

(I have more to say but need to go right now and thought maybe you would see this today, but if not no worries)

Seaturtles

But then what if being afraid my expectations are too high makes me settle?

Dear Anita,

“-answer:  re-associate with your feelings about your childhood experience with your father. Elaborated: a child stuck with a difficult, abusive parent dissociates best she can, pushing her distressing feelings as far down as she can, becoming minimally aware of them and therefore, minimally distressed.”

Do you think that I can re-associate and release my feelings about my childhood experiences with my father through art? When I read this I imagined needing an outlet for those feelings that I would be re-associating with, and possibly a blank canvas could be helpful for me. You know what is interesting, so I majored in Sociology, and a big portion of my college classes were also in the psychology department, for a while I thought I wanted to be a child therapist. Then when I moved to Arizona, feeling sort of trapped in that home with N and the roommate, I painted more than ever, some paintings that make more sense now than they did at the time. I have considered starting an art therapy class, I am not sure how to go about it or what qualification’s I would need, but it seems like I may be looping back to that idea.

“One way to do it is in talk therapy, expressing how you felt back then in the context of your interactions with your father; another way is to journal (you can journal here, on your thread).”

I appreciate this option to journal here 🙂

What comes to mind now is how I didn’t know how to talk to him or express myself to him. I often left conversations wondering how I gave in or upset with myself that I couldn’t express myself well enough. He also made me feel stupid and lazy quite often. I watched the show “friends” alot through my parents divorce, it brought me alot of comfort and meant more than a tv show to me. I would rewatch it A LOT, i’ve seen the series through probably near 100 times. I liked it on to watch, or in the background when I was alone. Anways, my dad would make fun of me for watching it, he would say “I can’t believe you like this show so much, Seinfield is way better comedy than this trash,” “watching tv during the day time! must be nice.” He made me question myself often, like my taste in clothing for example, I would wear something that was trendy and he would roll his eyes and kinda laugh (because all of these things were “jokes” to him, if I brought up now he would be like “wow I guess I just didn’t realize you were so sensitive”), he would laugh and be like “copying your friend “so and so” huh?” He would also always tell me I basically wasn’t special… He literally told me I didn’t have original thoughts. Like I would say something I thought was a good idea or think I started a trend or that people liked what I wore or something like that and he would laugh and just make fun of me for thinking I came up with it. My dad is a funny person, the way he phrases things gets laughs, he is very sarcastic and I do find him funny, actually sometimes I miss his sense of humor. But about half of his jokes are at the expense of someone else. My dad could be sweet, he would plan these elaborate gifts for my mom on mothers day and her birthday, he added a speaker system to her car one year and another he put a lunchbox of snacks in her car so she would remember to eat. He coordinated us making breakfast for her in bed every mothers day.

My mom would set up dinner dates between me and my dad cause she wanted us to have a relationship, one she didn’t she never met her real dad and had an amazing stepdad growing up. At those dinner dates, I remember feeling inspired by him, he should be a life coach with how he can inspire you to take on a lofty goal. But then I would feel like I wasn’t good enough if I didn’t follow through on our inspirational conversation goals.  I think my mom felt the same way, they would have budget goals and she would currently be inspired but then spend behind his back and I just remember him always being so confused whenever her or I didn’t follow through on this lofty goal. Always had to be my best infront of my dad I never have felt able to be vulnerable with him. Well then there was the year we lived together and we bonded over mutual disappointment in my mom. But his disappointment continued on after mine. I think he literally felt betrayed when I stayed with my mom for long periods.

with love,

Hatchling

Dear Anita,

“-(1) “so hurt you eventually start to wonder why“- imagine a child being so very, very hurt and so very, very alone with his hurt, that he is.. too hurt and too alone (no one there to listen and answer) to wonder why. Resigned to his questions being unanswered, he/ she stops asking. (This doesn’t seem the case with you or with N).”

I think this is the case with N, he has described feeling alone in his childhood. He said he was often left home alone and played by himself. He has said that his mom didn’t really listen to him and didn’t SEE him. Then his dad, from my observations, seems like he made things about himself the majority of the time, complaining to him about his mom. He said when his mom was mad at him it automatically made her mad at his dad to, as if all his “faults” were because of his dads influence.

“but having no trace of you (when you lived with your mom) also made him upset.. So his upset-ness about you living with your mom was not about love for you…”

I agree, it was not out of love. He would frame it as love, and make me feel so guilty as if I was not loving him enough. My mom, on the otherhand was very selfless when it came to splitting time with my parents. When I would come home from college she would sense my stress of not wanting to make anybody sad, and she would just tell me to make my dad happy and she would basically just take the leftovers.

“Routine (at your father’s) that includes a bad routine will not promote self-discipline. No routine (at your mother’s) will not promote self-discipline either.”

I have always felt I lacked self discipline, I struggle to stick with things like jobs (for over a year) and when I try to get on a healthy workout routine, I lose motivation at about 4 weeks. I just start to feel like what’s the point, I only have one life why am I living it with rules for myself..

” I think that in my case, my intense desire to increase my awareness since I was a teenager, perhaps since earlier.. was about my desperate need at the time to (rephrased now).. to parent my very emotionally immature mother.. to raise her, so to speak, so that she will be the mature, reliable, strong mother I needed her to be.”

Interesting, I wonder if this is part of my awareness journey as well. Something I think also encouraged becoming more aware was how my dad made me feel at the “house cleaning” meetings. He would list all these things I did that showed that I was ungrateful for a car, nice home, food, my college paid for. His rationale would completely manipulate me into feeling so bad, but the worst part was I had no idea I did all those “things” leaving dishes out, not having my car cleaned, things like that. the fact I was unaware of causing him so much pain I truly attempted to be hyper aware and thought of how every little thing I did could possibly be interpreted to him. I once told him I felt I was walking on egg shells and he literally laughed and thought that was ridiculous and said he was so easy to have a conversation with if I wanted to. But at the time I didn’t know how to express myself, as his rational, made sense to me and I thought everything was just my fault.

““What is really cool, is my current roommate is one of my good friends from high-school… She said I have always been very cautious of the type of people I spent my time with, shying away from toxic people…“-  severely immature parents are toxic to their children. Even if and when they try to be good parents.”

Is it because I had toxic parents at home that when I got to school I had no energy for any more toxic people? As if I went to school already exhausted and drained I couldn’t take on any more?

” a care free child, a state of mind possible when and where there is someone mature and strong, self-reliant and not so needy- to depend on.”

How do I allow myself to be in a care free child state, and a strong self-reliant adult, at the same time? For example, if one day hatchling is craving a care free childlike day of arts/crafts but adult Seaturtle needs to be self-reliant and go to her job where hatchling has to sit still. I assume the answer is not to deny one for the other to shine.

“Trusting him to be the parent that you need will lead to ongoing frustration on your part and on his. It’s a misplaced, inappropriate trust.. similar perhaps to.. your father’s misplaced, inappropriate trust or expectation that you will be.. the strong, mature and attentive mother that he didn’t have.”

This is intense. Towards the end of living with my dad and after, I thought his misplaced trust or expectations of me were those that he expected and never received from my mother. Which now that I think about it is probably true too, he first misplaced them onto my mom, was disappointed, then did it to me… what do you think about this? The reason, however, that I felt it was specifically misplaced trust and attentiveness he didn’t receive from my mother is because he treated me as though I didn’t deserve to be trusted. My mom broke his trust in many ways, and it was as if he treated my teenage years of sneaking out to parties I wasn’t allowed to go to, as if I had cheated on him in marriage. The thing that makes it worse is my “sneakiness” was so much less than majority of teenagers and all of my friends. I snuck out to go hiking with my friends cause he didn’t want me around boys without parents at age 16. I snuck out to play soccer with my friends. He also treated me like I was a (very bluntly put) like I was a slut like my mom. By this I mean, my mom was always a flirt, with all the dads on my soccer team even my coaches, I wasn’t allowed to hangout with the friends whose dads she was friendly with. My mom, as I have said before, cheated on my dad many times. Before leaving to school from ages 13-18 my outfits would get checked, and I began to change at school. My dad would edit any outfit that was flattering on me, even jeans and a t shirt. no makeup allowed. When he told me I wasn’t allowed to wear jeans without a shirt that covered my butt… that is when I started changing at school. He would tell me “boys actually want and respect a girl who dresses modestly” he would promote outfits that made me look like a box. I am a curvy girl and still to this day finding flattering clothes is not my strength, I often feel either too sexy or too boxy. (my exact thoughts about my two outfits at the wedding I went with Nathan to, where I had a panic attack about my clothes)

This brings me to a childhood story, I wrote in my original post. When it comes to being a “care free child,” I wonder if things like controlling my clothing contributed to not allowing me to be a “care free child”? At age 13 taking away the innocence of my clothing my sexualizing me and telling me how boys would think. The story: I was 11 years old, my friends were playing outside, my friend S was allowed to wear whatever she wanted, that day she had the shortest shorts on I had ever seen. Not wanting to replicate, but to feel like I fit in, I wore some shorts that were no where near as short as hers but were my shortest ones, that my mom got me and said were fine. Before I made it outside to play, my dad stopped me and said the shorts were inappropriate and I needed to change to longer ones that reached my knees! I was so embarrassed at the shorts he wanted me to wear as they were not flattering at all and they accentuated my knees, which at the time I was insecure about because my soccer uniform caused my knees to get more tan/darker than the rest of my body! I am Hawaiian (on my moms side) and tan very well. I was so embarrassed I decided not to go out and play anymore. This is my first memory of having suicidal thoughts. I hurt myself, a little bit, in that moment. (trigger warning of what I actually did, you don’t have to read if you don’t want to, I think the story can be understood without,if so stop reading skip to next paragraph now) : I went to the kitchen, got a knife from the drawer and went back to my room and held it to my bare chest, I remember wanting to end it right there, but after just leaving a very small red dot, I put it under my bed) I don’t remember what I did after this, whether I went outside or stayed in my room.

“As a matter of fact, he recently told you that you were bringing him down.. down with your heavy overreactions…? Maybe he is angry at you for feeling like he has to walk on eggshells, that any little misdeed or perceived misdeed can cause a bomb to go off.”

Yes because of my prolonged overreactions. And yes I don’t doubt that a part of him is angry he has to walk on eggshells. However there is part of me that can sense when he accidentally steps on the shells and when he does it out of anger as if to test my reaction. This was the case with being late for dinner that night. So I wrote the post about being upset he was late for dinner the following morning, but this is how I reacted that night: When he told me he was running late, which is definitely appreciated over just showing up late, my text response was “really?:/” as that very day I had said “hey can we please make 5pm work, I’d like a time to look forward to,” so it just really felt like really? anyways, I did not want this to ruin our night, so with the hour I had before his arrival, I told myself “he loves me” “this isn’t on purpose”-but I didn’t believe this one… so I continued with other affirmations like “he likes to spend time with me” “he is trying.” I was able to calm my anxiety, when he showed up it re-appeared inside me but I didn’t say anything in the anxiety and after about 15 min we were sitting down and I felt at peace and we enjoyed the evening together. When I wrote the post the next morning, the feelings rose up again, and it made me wonder if the night before I “over-tamed” hatchling? What do you think?

 “N is a nice, hard working young man who is being mistaken for some other person (your father). What if you are putting him into that box, the box of being cold like your father…?”

When I read this the first time I giggled to myself because I can see the irony.

“– N is not CALLOUS (but may be in the process of becoming callous with you). It’s your father who was and is CALLOUS with you. Think of this, if you will: there is a real-life universe and an alternate, or a parallel universe. Hatchling used to live in a real-life universe: her childhood, when she was a real-life child.”

It is my nightmare that N become actually callous like my father. How do I allow hatchling to deal with her unfished business with our father without using N as the target in this parallel universe? Is the better question, how do I replace N with my actual father in that parallel universe?

With love,

Seaturtles 🙂

Dear Anita,

“– She is re-experiencing her  relationship with her father while in a relationship with N ever since it became a long-enough relationship, longer than all your past relationships. It was bound to happen no matter who you’d be in a romantic relationship, once the relationship lasts long-enough and you become .. (too) attached to the man.”

So is the answer through the relationship? I started to have this feeling about a year into the relationship but the past year has been the “8 months my mind hasn’t rested” (the title of my first forum). Does ending this cycle require me to be alone with hatchling more? or to actually spend more time with N to build trust?

I am not sure if this is hatchling or objective truth, but sometimes it seems like N tries to make me disconnect from him. His mom is quite cold when it comes to affection and nurturing. But I am the opposite, I love to nurture and take care of others. Sometimes I feel like N does things, unconsciously, that intentionally bring out my cold side, like his mother. But I do not like to be cold, it feels terrible when I feel triggered and my warmth hides away. For example, like I mentioned in my post, November 4, 2023 at 1:33 pm, the next morning, Saturday, was obviously a delicate day after that miscommunication about spending the day together, we both cried, him after seeing me truly struggle to calm down. The next morning feeling so delicate, it really felt like he kicked me while I was down by texting me so coldly, when I asked when we were meeting for lunch he says “I ate lunch at 10am lol”, like this message is such a brush off and the “lol,” like does he have zero sensitivity? Then he just straight up says  “it means we’re not gonna see each other today.” He knew that would trigger the whole evening to me, he knows me better than to think that wouldn’t hurt. I do not understand this lack of empathy and sensitivity from him and this honestly just triggered another panic attack, which is the moment I wrote the post on November 4, 2023 at 1:33 pm. THEN the next evening, Sunday night, he was to come over for dinner and he was an hour late! Just kicked again while I was down. Honestly I literally felt like he just wanted me to be cold like his mother, but if he is going to try to put me into that box I want to be far away from him. I haven’t talked to him about the CALLOUS text messages or being late, on top of everything that had just happened! because he will just get defensive and it will ruin our time together. But it really bothers me.

with love,

hatchling and possibly Seaturtle in defense of her

Dear Anita,

In response to your reply on (November 3, 2023 at 12:11 pm)

“he said this time, meaning that at other times he felt badly… If that’s what he meant (without necessarily meaning to express it to you), then he is aware of feeling badly when in his parents’ home.”

Interesting observation. Yes he has, but he didn’t notice it this time? Yes it is very possible he just didn’t want to talk about it. He doesn’t like to talk about emotions or feelings, I have to tiptoe around this, which is hard cause I do want to. He often feels good and “closer to me” when we do talk about feelings but starting is super delicate.

” Something about your childhood was positive enough to make it possible for you to have the level of awareness that you do today. Maybe he wasn’t that.. fortunate.”

Interesting. I haven’t thought of my awareness coming from something “positive” from “childhood.” For some reason I felt it was negative childhood and positive adulthood that caused forced awareness after being made to feels so badly, so hurt you eventually start to wonder why. What do you think about this?

“CBT is effective when it comes to challenging the inner child’s emotion-led thoughts (aka emotional reasoning) and leading her into believing what is objectively true vs what she feels is true. Over time, hatchling will believe what is objectively true.”

This gives me hope, CBT is something I will pursue. I often feel emotion driven and confused about objective truth.

““I often felt free-er with my mom, but safer with my dad“- I didn’t know that you feel safer with your father… Would you like to elaborate on this sentence, the whole sentence?”

I am glad you asked for clarification here because reading it back it can be misleading. After not speaking to my mom for a year, ages 16-17, my heart ached for her so much that I forced compartmentalized “my mom” and “the woman who hurt my dad/family.” Also, living with my dad gave me insight as to why my mom “rebelled,” he made it hard to tell him the truth cause he was not very understanding if you did not have exact rational language that he would understand. When I opened back up to my mom I stayed with her for several months, which by the way made my dad upset, he would get annoyed if I spent more time with her than him. He felt it was unfair? I am honestly not sure where his mood swings stemmed from. When I stayed with my mom, we would smoke weed together, she had a dab pen that she shared with me, I had tried once experimentally with a friend at 16, but with her was my first time consistently. When I stayed with her for a certain amount of time I would start to feel a little unhinged, like I needed a routine. My dad’s home was very routine, he had a gym there and had all his meals planned in the fridge. By saying my dads home had more “safety” what I really mean is consistency and routine. I would swing back and forth between my moms and dads, one with fun: takeout food, random activities, crafts, I think my mom was trying to get me to “like her” again, so she just gave me whatever I wanted, this is what I meant by feeling free-er. Then the other with reliability and structure: healthy food, workouts, waking up early, no excuses for days off.

wow I am having a realization. I have felt this way in my life for a long time. I switch between structure/routine and impulsivity/desires. When I am in one for a certain amount of time, about 4 weeks, I CRAVE the other…This is actually something I have felt was “wrong” with me. It affects my work, I often get inspired by the structure of my job, then after too much I start to call out of work, stay home and paint/whatever craft I am currently inspired by. I have been fired by jobs because of this and told by two employers I take too much time off… But I have yet to find a job I care enough about, I get to the point of not caring if they fire me cause I want a new routine anyway. Acting in plays, classes and improv are actually the only activities I don’t desire to cancel on or take breaks from.

“We adapt by figuratively closing our eyes to what scares us/ minimizing awareness. Fast forward, as adults, our eyes are still closed and our awareness- blocked to one extent or another, often significantly.”

This may be why I have such an intense desire to increase my awareness, because of the previous lack. What is really cool, is my current roommate is one of my good friends from high-school. That was a time in my life where I was very unaware, for the reasons you just said. I feel a disconnect with that version of myself, my memory is as if I was a robot, disconnected and pretending to be someone else so that I fit in and could avoid not being accepted. But my roommate has talked about my high-school self, being similar to how I am now, in ways. She said I have always been very cautious of the type of people I spent my time with, shying away from toxic people. She also pointed out that I have always been a “one friend at a time” girl, getting close with one person for a season before they became part of my circle. It was nice to hear her talk about my teenage self, it helps me to connect/ resonate with that version of myself.

(I will respond to your next reply in a separate message)

With love,

Seaturtles

I am sorry for being dramatic, I feel immature and weak for it. I feel like I cannot handle how he disconnects from me and don’t know if I can handle this relationship. It brings me to such low places that make me very depressed. But as you said he’s perfect for me, so if it’s not him maybe I just can’t handle any intimate relationship, but then I would be so lonely, I just don’t see light at the end of the tunnel right now.

Dear Anita,

I will read and respond by Tuesday morning, earlier if I find the time. Tonight is opening night for my performance in a the Shakespeare play! N will be there and I am very nervous and want to come back to read when I can focus. Have a great weekend!