Home→Forums→Relationships→Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships
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November 8, 2023 at 11:38 am #424876seaturtleParticipant
Dear Anita,
“-(1) “so hurt you eventually start to wonder why“- imagine a child being so very, very hurt and so very, very alone with his hurt, that he is.. too hurt and too alone (no one there to listen and answer) to wonder why. Resigned to his questions being unanswered, he/ she stops asking. (This doesn’t seem the case with you or with N).”
I think this is the case with N, he has described feeling alone in his childhood. He said he was often left home alone and played by himself. He has said that his mom didn’t really listen to him and didn’t SEE him. Then his dad, from my observations, seems like he made things about himself the majority of the time, complaining to him about his mom. He said when his mom was mad at him it automatically made her mad at his dad to, as if all his “faults” were because of his dads influence.
“but having no trace of you (when you lived with your mom) also made him upset.. So his upset-ness about you living with your mom was not about love for you…”
I agree, it was not out of love. He would frame it as love, and make me feel so guilty as if I was not loving him enough. My mom, on the otherhand was very selfless when it came to splitting time with my parents. When I would come home from college she would sense my stress of not wanting to make anybody sad, and she would just tell me to make my dad happy and she would basically just take the leftovers.
“Routine (at your father’s) that includes a bad routine will not promote self-discipline. No routine (at your mother’s) will not promote self-discipline either.”
I have always felt I lacked self discipline, I struggle to stick with things like jobs (for over a year) and when I try to get on a healthy workout routine, I lose motivation at about 4 weeks. I just start to feel like what’s the point, I only have one life why am I living it with rules for myself..
” I think that in my case, my intense desire to increase my awareness since I was a teenager, perhaps since earlier.. was about my desperate need at the time to (rephrased now).. to parent my very emotionally immature mother.. to raise her, so to speak, so that she will be the mature, reliable, strong mother I needed her to be.”
Interesting, I wonder if this is part of my awareness journey as well. Something I think also encouraged becoming more aware was how my dad made me feel at the “house cleaning” meetings. He would list all these things I did that showed that I was ungrateful for a car, nice home, food, my college paid for. His rationale would completely manipulate me into feeling so bad, but the worst part was I had no idea I did all those “things” leaving dishes out, not having my car cleaned, things like that. the fact I was unaware of causing him so much pain I truly attempted to be hyper aware and thought of how every little thing I did could possibly be interpreted to him. I once told him I felt I was walking on egg shells and he literally laughed and thought that was ridiculous and said he was so easy to have a conversation with if I wanted to. But at the time I didn’t know how to express myself, as his rational, made sense to me and I thought everything was just my fault.
““What is really cool, is my current roommate is one of my good friends from high-school… She said I have always been very cautious of the type of people I spent my time with, shying away from toxic people…“- severely immature parents are toxic to their children. Even if and when they try to be good parents.”
Is it because I had toxic parents at home that when I got to school I had no energy for any more toxic people? As if I went to school already exhausted and drained I couldn’t take on any more?
” a care free child, a state of mind possible when and where there is someone mature and strong, self-reliant and not so needy- to depend on.”
How do I allow myself to be in a care free child state, and a strong self-reliant adult, at the same time? For example, if one day hatchling is craving a care free childlike day of arts/crafts but adult Seaturtle needs to be self-reliant and go to her job where hatchling has to sit still. I assume the answer is not to deny one for the other to shine.
“Trusting him to be the parent that you need will lead to ongoing frustration on your part and on his. It’s a misplaced, inappropriate trust.. similar perhaps to.. your father’s misplaced, inappropriate trust or expectation that you will be.. the strong, mature and attentive mother that he didn’t have.”
This is intense. Towards the end of living with my dad and after, I thought his misplaced trust or expectations of me were those that he expected and never received from my mother. Which now that I think about it is probably true too, he first misplaced them onto my mom, was disappointed, then did it to me… what do you think about this? The reason, however, that I felt it was specifically misplaced trust and attentiveness he didn’t receive from my mother is because he treated me as though I didn’t deserve to be trusted. My mom broke his trust in many ways, and it was as if he treated my teenage years of sneaking out to parties I wasn’t allowed to go to, as if I had cheated on him in marriage. The thing that makes it worse is my “sneakiness” was so much less than majority of teenagers and all of my friends. I snuck out to go hiking with my friends cause he didn’t want me around boys without parents at age 16. I snuck out to play soccer with my friends. He also treated me like I was a (very bluntly put) like I was a slut like my mom. By this I mean, my mom was always a flirt, with all the dads on my soccer team even my coaches, I wasn’t allowed to hangout with the friends whose dads she was friendly with. My mom, as I have said before, cheated on my dad many times. Before leaving to school from ages 13-18 my outfits would get checked, and I began to change at school. My dad would edit any outfit that was flattering on me, even jeans and a t shirt. no makeup allowed. When he told me I wasn’t allowed to wear jeans without a shirt that covered my butt… that is when I started changing at school. He would tell me “boys actually want and respect a girl who dresses modestly” he would promote outfits that made me look like a box. I am a curvy girl and still to this day finding flattering clothes is not my strength, I often feel either too sexy or too boxy. (my exact thoughts about my two outfits at the wedding I went with Nathan to, where I had a panic attack about my clothes)
This brings me to a childhood story, I wrote in my original post. When it comes to being a “care free child,” I wonder if things like controlling my clothing contributed to not allowing me to be a “care free child”? At age 13 taking away the innocence of my clothing my sexualizing me and telling me how boys would think. The story: I was 11 years old, my friends were playing outside, my friend S was allowed to wear whatever she wanted, that day she had the shortest shorts on I had ever seen. Not wanting to replicate, but to feel like I fit in, I wore some shorts that were no where near as short as hers but were my shortest ones, that my mom got me and said were fine. Before I made it outside to play, my dad stopped me and said the shorts were inappropriate and I needed to change to longer ones that reached my knees! I was so embarrassed at the shorts he wanted me to wear as they were not flattering at all and they accentuated my knees, which at the time I was insecure about because my soccer uniform caused my knees to get more tan/darker than the rest of my body! I am Hawaiian (on my moms side) and tan very well. I was so embarrassed I decided not to go out and play anymore. This is my first memory of having suicidal thoughts. I hurt myself, a little bit, in that moment. (trigger warning of what I actually did, you don’t have to read if you don’t want to, I think the story can be understood without,if so stop reading skip to next paragraph now) : I went to the kitchen, got a knife from the drawer and went back to my room and held it to my bare chest, I remember wanting to end it right there, but after just leaving a very small red dot, I put it under my bed) I don’t remember what I did after this, whether I went outside or stayed in my room.
“As a matter of fact, he recently told you that you were bringing him down.. down with your heavy overreactions…? Maybe he is angry at you for feeling like he has to walk on eggshells, that any little misdeed or perceived misdeed can cause a bomb to go off.”
Yes because of my prolonged overreactions. And yes I don’t doubt that a part of him is angry he has to walk on eggshells. However there is part of me that can sense when he accidentally steps on the shells and when he does it out of anger as if to test my reaction. This was the case with being late for dinner that night. So I wrote the post about being upset he was late for dinner the following morning, but this is how I reacted that night: When he told me he was running late, which is definitely appreciated over just showing up late, my text response was “really?:/” as that very day I had said “hey can we please make 5pm work, I’d like a time to look forward to,” so it just really felt like really? anyways, I did not want this to ruin our night, so with the hour I had before his arrival, I told myself “he loves me” “this isn’t on purpose”-but I didn’t believe this one… so I continued with other affirmations like “he likes to spend time with me” “he is trying.” I was able to calm my anxiety, when he showed up it re-appeared inside me but I didn’t say anything in the anxiety and after about 15 min we were sitting down and I felt at peace and we enjoyed the evening together. When I wrote the post the next morning, the feelings rose up again, and it made me wonder if the night before I “over-tamed” hatchling? What do you think?
“N is a nice, hard working young man who is being mistaken for some other person (your father). What if you are putting him into that box, the box of being cold like your father…?”
When I read this the first time I giggled to myself because I can see the irony.
“– N is not CALLOUS (but may be in the process of becoming callous with you). It’s your father who was and is CALLOUS with you. Think of this, if you will: there is a real-life universe and an alternate, or a parallel universe. Hatchling used to live in a real-life universe: her childhood, when she was a real-life child.”
It is my nightmare that N become actually callous like my father. How do I allow hatchling to deal with her unfished business with our father without using N as the target in this parallel universe? Is the better question, how do I replace N with my actual father in that parallel universe?
With love,
Seaturtles 🙂
November 8, 2023 at 12:05 pm #424877anitaParticipantDear Seaturtle:
I will reply further in the morning, but for now, regarding your intelligent question: “how do I replace N with my actual father in that parallel universe?”-
-answer: re-associate with your feelings about your childhood experience with your father. Elaborated: a child stuck with a difficult, abusive parent dissociates best she can, pushing her distressing feelings as far down as she can, becoming minimally aware of them and therefore, minimally distressed.
The real-life child dissociates from herself.. leading to an adult with a dissociated inner child, an inner child who will not stay quiet, insisting to be heard.
You can think of these dissociated distressing feelings as ghosts looking for a body to associate with/ to enter. So, they look for a romantic partner as that body to enter (be projected into), for the purpose of finding resolution and calm. Direct those ghosts to your father so that they will leave N alone. One way to do it is in talk therapy, expressing how you felt back then in the context of your interactions with your father; another way is to journal (you can journal here, on your thread).
anita
November 8, 2023 at 12:32 pm #424878seaturtleParticipantAnita,
(to your second message from November 8th)
I may come back to this message tomorrow for a more detailed response. However I will share my current feelings about it now.
I feel like I have been dealing with two separate battles when it comes to deciding if this is the right relationship for me. Part one of the battle, is what we majorly speak about, how I wonder if N is sensitive enough for me, if he accepts and SEES me, if he truly cares about me/loves me for me. This is the part of the battle that I referred to when I mentioned regretting if I ended things because of this. I wanted to/ and still do want to do with this first, before I take on part two of the battle, because two at once is too confusing. I want to make sure I don’t end things/make a big relationship decision because of part one, because I would regret that. Seaturtle becoming aware of hatchling, and taking the reigns back is goal one. Because even if N is not my life partner, these are things I will have to deal with no matter who I am with.
Then there is part two of my battle. If healed, and no longer projecting F into N, is N at the end of the day the person I want next to me in this life. Yes he is great in many ways, we agree on that. But there are some things I thought would be in my future partner that is missing, but this “missing” or lacking feeling, could be solved by solving part one of my battle. Many of my relationships with friends from the past and present, involve a shared sense of humor, which N and I don’t have. We often do not get eachother’s. He has said he thinks my sense of humor is lacking because I do not like “dark humor or stupid humor.” By stupid humor him and I both mean things like “Napolean Dynamite or Bench-warmers,” I also call it gross boy humor. I understand the jokes but they are just gross to me. I have a very witty sense of humor which N does not, I often make comments he doesn’t hear or get and I just laugh at myself, but this humor is what I share with most other friends, and I feel sad that we can’t share that. We do however share humor in shows like The Office, New Girl and Friends, but again what exactly we laugh at I think is very different. Also sexually, we are compatible in many ways, enough to be satisfied with. However I find alot of other things in life erotic, foreplay, role playing and texting conversations that can be very flirtatious and fun. These are how I expressed my sexuality early on and really loved. With him, he skips foreplay often unless I sort of make it all happen, I often find myself having to imagine things to get fully turned on, as he gets just instantly without foreplay. I have tried everything I know to initiate and teach those things and it is just always awkward in the end and he doesn’t get it. I also am a very feminine woman, I am also adventurous and can hangout with boys and play video games (as I did grow up with all those uncles). However, I like myself better when I embody my feminine energy, N doesn’t bring that out of me. and AGAIN maybe solving battle part one, will make me feel more comfortable to express myself. But as it stands now, N brings out my tom-boy behaviors like getting dirty outside and just an energy that is hard to explain but overall adventurous, loud, fast paced. I miss my femininity. I sort of feel like I want a man that brings the parts of me I love, out to the surface. and I am not sure if this is all due to battle part one, or if this is the relationship. I feel like just friends with N sometimes, which I know you mentioned before, isn’t a good relationship a friendship and good sexual experiences? I do think so, but I also feel like eroticism is what I want to be involved too. By eroticism, I mean a compatibility in what turns us on and makes us feel connected, I have this desire for someone to connect with me so deeply, I know it exists on this earth and I want it. Sometimes I wonder if I break up with N, a very very difficult thing, that the universe will reward me with something magnetically just magical. A bond that is my muse for my artistic visions and is like entering into another world. Love is one of the most written about/painted about phenomenon’s of this earth, and I have to believe that is for a reason, and just know I haven’t experienced what they talk/sing/paint/ write poetry about. I truly hope my hopes are not DANGEROUSLY too high of expectations and I my life will never live up to them, which is a very depressing thought and probably one of my deepest fears. Sometimes I wish there was a way to keep N as a friend as I explored my sexuality elsewhere, but I don’t think this is realistic.
Seaturtle/hatchling I am not sure here
November 8, 2023 at 2:48 pm #424882anitaParticipantDear Seaturtle:
I am looking forward to read and re-read your two recent posts and reply Thurs morning (looking forward because you are a fascinating person to get to know)!
anita
November 9, 2023 at 10:24 am #424900seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
“-answer: re-associate with your feelings about your childhood experience with your father. Elaborated: a child stuck with a difficult, abusive parent dissociates best she can, pushing her distressing feelings as far down as she can, becoming minimally aware of them and therefore, minimally distressed.”
Do you think that I can re-associate and release my feelings about my childhood experiences with my father through art? When I read this I imagined needing an outlet for those feelings that I would be re-associating with, and possibly a blank canvas could be helpful for me. You know what is interesting, so I majored in Sociology, and a big portion of my college classes were also in the psychology department, for a while I thought I wanted to be a child therapist. Then when I moved to Arizona, feeling sort of trapped in that home with N and the roommate, I painted more than ever, some paintings that make more sense now than they did at the time. I have considered starting an art therapy class, I am not sure how to go about it or what qualification’s I would need, but it seems like I may be looping back to that idea.
“One way to do it is in talk therapy, expressing how you felt back then in the context of your interactions with your father; another way is to journal (you can journal here, on your thread).”
I appreciate this option to journal here 🙂
What comes to mind now is how I didn’t know how to talk to him or express myself to him. I often left conversations wondering how I gave in or upset with myself that I couldn’t express myself well enough. He also made me feel stupid and lazy quite often. I watched the show “friends” alot through my parents divorce, it brought me alot of comfort and meant more than a tv show to me. I would rewatch it A LOT, i’ve seen the series through probably near 100 times. I liked it on to watch, or in the background when I was alone. Anways, my dad would make fun of me for watching it, he would say “I can’t believe you like this show so much, Seinfield is way better comedy than this trash,” “watching tv during the day time! must be nice.” He made me question myself often, like my taste in clothing for example, I would wear something that was trendy and he would roll his eyes and kinda laugh (because all of these things were “jokes” to him, if I brought up now he would be like “wow I guess I just didn’t realize you were so sensitive”), he would laugh and be like “copying your friend “so and so” huh?” He would also always tell me I basically wasn’t special… He literally told me I didn’t have original thoughts. Like I would say something I thought was a good idea or think I started a trend or that people liked what I wore or something like that and he would laugh and just make fun of me for thinking I came up with it. My dad is a funny person, the way he phrases things gets laughs, he is very sarcastic and I do find him funny, actually sometimes I miss his sense of humor. But about half of his jokes are at the expense of someone else. My dad could be sweet, he would plan these elaborate gifts for my mom on mothers day and her birthday, he added a speaker system to her car one year and another he put a lunchbox of snacks in her car so she would remember to eat. He coordinated us making breakfast for her in bed every mothers day.
My mom would set up dinner dates between me and my dad cause she wanted us to have a relationship, one she didn’t she never met her real dad and had an amazing stepdad growing up. At those dinner dates, I remember feeling inspired by him, he should be a life coach with how he can inspire you to take on a lofty goal. But then I would feel like I wasn’t good enough if I didn’t follow through on our inspirational conversation goals. I think my mom felt the same way, they would have budget goals and she would currently be inspired but then spend behind his back and I just remember him always being so confused whenever her or I didn’t follow through on this lofty goal. Always had to be my best infront of my dad I never have felt able to be vulnerable with him. Well then there was the year we lived together and we bonded over mutual disappointment in my mom. But his disappointment continued on after mine. I think he literally felt betrayed when I stayed with my mom for long periods.
with love,
Hatchling
November 9, 2023 at 10:34 am #424901seaturtleParticipant“(looking forward because you are a fascinating person to get to know)!”
Thank you 🙂
You know, I hope this doesn’t read conceited, and please let me know if this is just my ego talking. Despite my dad believing I had individuality I have come to see myself as special, I do believe I am unique. I think I project F into N in this scenario though, because I don’t feel like he thinks I am special.. I battle this. I often wonder if N would pick me from a room of women. Or did we just get along and make sense, and on paper we are a match, so it just is and we fell in love. This is my fear. Sometimes I feel like N would prefer a different type of woman than me, when he compliments other women’s personalities who are so different from mine it makes me wonder this. When people with similar personalities to me come on a screen or in person he laughs and is like “that’s you!” but I wish his response was more like he actually wanted it. He complimented an actress the other day who has a very dark sense of humor that he thinks is cool, and it just makes me feel like he doesn’t appreciate what makes me “cool.” I don’t know how much of this is projecting F into N here or how much is actually true that he would have more fun with someone like that, just as I wonder if I would rather be around someone who brings out my femininity and humor (as I mentioned before on battle part two).
Seaturtle
November 9, 2023 at 11:16 am #424903anitaParticipantDear Seaturtle:
I am beginning my reply to you. It’d probably take a couple of hours, maybe sooner.
anita
November 9, 2023 at 1:32 pm #424906anitaParticipantDear Seaturtle:
“(N) has described feeling alone in his childhood. He said he was often left home alone and played by himself. He has said that his mom didn’t really listen to him and didn’t SEE him… He said when his mom was mad at him it automatically made her mad at his dad to, as if all his ‘faults’ were because of his dad’s influence“- his mom’s anger was directed at his dad, not at her son. It is not an ideal situation, of course.. but him being out of the line of fire, may have been a positive aspect of his childhood compared to the alternative.
“I agree, it was not out of love. He would frame it as love, and make me feel so guilty as if I was not loving him enough. My mom, on the other hand was very selfless when it came to splitting time with my parents…”- (1) making one’s daughter feel so guilty = NOT loving one’s daughter. (2) your mother’s selfless behavior was a positive aspect in your childhood, compared to the alternative of having two selfish, self-centered parents.
“I have always felt I lacked self discipline, I struggle to stick with things like jobs (for over a year) and when I try to get on a healthy workout routine, I lose motivation at about 4 weeks. I just start to feel like what’s the point, I only have one life why am I living it with rules for myself..“- feeling restrained by rules, as in being unfree, caged in, jailed…?
“How my dad made me feel at the ‘house cleaning’ meetings. He would list all these things I did that showed that I was ungrateful for… manipulate me into feeling so bad… I truly attempted to be hyper aware and thought of how every little thing I did could possibly be interpreted by him. I once told him I felt I was walking on egg shells… I thought everything was just my fault“-
– feeling that everything was your fault and feeling scared of the next house-cleaning meeting, trying to prevent the next and the next by walking on egg shells, keeping yourself hyper aware of every little thing: this emotional state in itself is a form of imprisonment.. something anyone would want to be FREE from.
“Is it because I had toxic parents at home that when I got to school I had no energy for any more toxic people? As if I went to school already exhausted and drained I couldn’t take on any more?“-
– I am guessing that in school, you didn’t feel the fear/ guilt/ confusion that you felt in your father’s house (and which blocked you from confronting him), so you didn’t have these things in your way, blocking you from confronting toxic people at school.
“How do I allow myself to be in a care free child state, and a strong self-reliant adult, at the same time? For example, if one day hatchling is craving a care free childlike day of arts/crafts but adult Seaturtle needs to be self-reliant and go to her job where hatchling has to sit still“-
– Think of this: two mothers take their children to their workplace. One child is used to be carefree and childlike at home. At the workplace, she plays, but not too loudly and she doesn’t run around breaking things. Much of the time she can sit still as she plays. And so, the mother and the child can co-exist at work.
The second child is not used to be care-free and childlike at home, she often feels restrained and having to act like an adult, careful and cautious, walking on egg shells, so she craves to be carefree and childlike. Once given the chance (outside the home), she overdoes it: she keeps yelling, running and bumping into things and she can’t sit still. The two, mother and child have to go home, or to the park because they cannot co-exist at work.
“This is intense. Towards the end of living with my dad and after, I thought his misplaced trust or expectations of me were those that he expected and never received from my mother… My mom broke his trust in many ways, and it was as if he treated my teenage years of sneaking out to parties I wasn’t allowed to go to, as if I had cheated on him in marriage.. He also treated me like I was a (very bluntly put) like I was a slut like my mom… Before leaving to school from ages 13-18 my outfits would get checked… he told me I wasn’t allowed to wear jeans without a shirt that covered my butt… he would promote outfits that made me look like a box… sexualizing me and telling me how boys would think”, “what do you think about this?“-
– I think covert incest. I think of a child placed in a box that’s labeled “adult”. I think of a daughter placed in a box labeled “wife”. I think it gets claustrophobic in that box. I’d think you can’t sit still in that box.
“I went to the kitchen, got a knife from the drawer and went back to my room and held it to my bare chest, I remember wanting to end it right there, but after just leaving a very small red dot, I put it under my bed“- this is what a girl does when placed and kept in a box for too long.
“I was able to calm my anxiety, when he showed up it re-appeared inside me but I didn’t say anything in the anxiety and after about 15 min we were sitting down and I felt at peace and we enjoyed the evening together. When I wrote the post the next morning, the feelings rose up again, and it made me wonder if the night before I ‘over-tamed’ hatchling? What do you think?”- I think that it will take a significant degree of freeing the caged girl from the box before you can figure appropriate self discipline vs over-self-discipline. The caged girl (over-tamed hatchling)- needs out of the box.
“I feel like I have been dealing with two separate battles when it comes to deciding if this is the right relationship for me. Part one of the battle, is what we majorly speak about… Also sexually, we are compatible in many ways, enough to be satisfied with. However I find a lot of other things in life erotic, foreplay… he skips foreplay often unless I sort of make it all happen… I like myself better when I embody my feminine energy…. N brings out my tom-boy behaviors.. I miss my femininity. I sort of feel like I want a man that brings the parts of me I love, out to the surface“-
– out from the dark box to the surface where there’s light; out of the non-feminine, non-sexual/ tom boy box your father (not N) placed you in?
“I also feel like eroticism is what I want to be involved too. By eroticism, I mean a compatibility in what turns us on and makes us feel connected, I have this desire for someone to connect with me so deeply, I know it exists on this earth and I want it. Sometimes I wonder if I break up with N… the universe will reward me with something magnetically just magical.. I truly hope my hopes are not DANGEROUSLY too high of expectations“-
– I think your that your expectations are indeed too high because.. a girl caged in a non-sexual box IMAGINES that sex must be .. eternally magnetic and magical. It is similar to a starving person imagining eating a steak, imagining it to always- every time and for the rest of his life- be a magical, heavenly experience. But after the first few times.. it isn’t. Sometimes it is, but at other times it’s overcooked or undercooked or it’s too chewy or you’re just not very hungry, etc.
N may not be the guy for you, there might be someone more compatible, but unrealistic expectations need to be considered.
“Do you think that I can re-associate and release my feelings about my childhood experiences with my father through art?… a blank canvas could be helpful for me… I have considered starting an art therapy class, I am not sure how to go about it or what qualification’s I would need, but it seems like I may be looping back to that idea“- reads promising to me. Art is definitely a way to re-associate with and process dissociated feelings.
“I appreciate this option to journal here“- journal away..!
“(F) would also always tell me I basically wasn’t special… He literally told me I didn’t have original thoughts. Like I would say something I thought was a good idea or think I started a trend or that people liked what I wore or something like that and he would laugh and just make fun of me for thinking I came up with it”- he wanted you in the box: no curves and no original ideas (or humor) allowed.. In the box without anything that makes you.. you.
“I do believe I am unique. I think I project F into N in this scenario though, because I don’t feel like he thinks I am special.. I battle this. I often wonder if N would pick me from a room of women… I don’t know how much of this is projecting F into N“-
– I agree that you are unique but your craving to be unique is too strong.. like the starving person craving a steak, the craving leads to (1) frustrations that are too intense in regard to what’s lacking in the present, (2) unrealistic expectations of a magical future.
It is your right of course, to break up with N. I’m just saying that.. well, I said it right above.
anita
November 9, 2023 at 2:13 pm #424911seaturtleParticipantBut then what if being afraid my expectations are too high makes me settle?
November 9, 2023 at 5:45 pm #424916anitaParticipantDear Seaturtle:
I don’t have an answer now, but maybe in the morning. Good night, Seaturtle and hatchling.
anita
November 10, 2023 at 8:27 am #424928anitaParticipantDear Seaturtle:
I was awake for too long last night, couldn’t/ wouldn’t sleep, so I thought a lot about your question and in general, I thought about, taking it from Shakespeare, To be or not to be, that is the question (be/ not be in a relationship with N), a question you’ve been asking yourself and debating over 8 months before you posted here for the first time on July 29, 2023: “My mind hasn’t rested in 8 months… I really have been having this entire debate in my head for a straight 6-8 months“. You’ve been asking this to-be-or-not-to-be question since about November 2022, and still asking this question in November 2023, a whole year of asking and debating.
For the last year of your 2 years and 3 months-long relationship (for the duration of close to half of the relationship), you’ve been asking this question.
“But then what if being afraid my expectations are too high makes me settle?“, you asked yesterday. Let’s look deeper into this question: there is fear of leaving the relationship (finding out that your expectations were indeed too high and regretting leaving the relationship) and there is fear of staying in the relationship and missing possible great opportunities outside the relationship.
Since I already did all the thinking last night, I’ll jump straight to my answer/ my suggestion: leave the relationship. Being conflicted about it for so long, and for close to half of the relationship is reason enough to leave it.
It crossed my mind, that if it was possible, a great solution would have been to put Earth on Pause, leave to another planet, have quality psychotherapy there for 6 months-a year (where you’d talk and process all that we talked about here on your thread), then return to earth (with your therapist to guide you), and Un-pause life on earth. Take it from there.
But since this solution is entirely fictional press the Pause or End button on the relationship with N as an exclusive, committed, long-term relationship. If possible, desirable and beneficial to both sides, the two of you can be friends, sexually intimate or not, but you need to be free to date anyone you want, and you need to put aside and no longer entertain a future with N.
Back to what you shared 3 days ago about your father: “he would promote outfits that made me look like a box. I am a curvy girl... The story: I was 11 years old, my friends were playing outside, my friend S was allowed to wear whatever she wanted… my dad stopped me and said the shorts were inappropriate and I needed to change to longer ones… This is my first memory of having suicidal thoughts”. Less than an hour later, on the same day, you wrote: “N brings out my tom-boy behaviors… I miss my femininity. I sort of feel like I want a man that brings the parts of me I love, out to the surface“-
– You are a curvy, feminine young woman but your curves have been flattened/ restrained/ boxed-in and hidden by F. No doubt in my mind that the right man for you- in the far future (after a long enough pause on the idea of a long-term, committed, exclusive relationship)- would be a man who makes you feel curvy and feminine. Settling into a life with a man (ex., N) who doesn’t is a bad idea now or in 10 years from now.
anita
November 10, 2023 at 12:01 pm #424934seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
“- feeling restrained by rules, as in being unfree, caged in, jailed…?”
Yes I often feel inspired by routine, but then after a while the rules feel like I built my own cage I need to get out of. When you used the child with her mother at work, “And so, the mother and the child can co-exist at work.” So then hatchling is the one who gets bored of my job and has me desiring new routines?
” keeping yourself hyper aware of every little thing: this emotional state in itself is a form of imprisonment.. something anyone would want to be FREE from.”
” I think of a child placed in a box that’s labeled “adult”. I think of a daughter placed in a box labeled “wife”. I think it gets claustrophobic in that box. I’d think you can’t sit still in that box.”
I definitely felt boxed in, but I think what was even more frustrating and quite paralyzing was not understanding why I felt that way. Wanting to run out of my own body and just escape this box I didn’t know how got there or how to get away from. I wanted to please my dad and fit in that box for him. Reading this makes me wish that I had the words to express myself to him, even to this day. I honestly feel like all of my uncles put me into that box, they would also comment about my clothing or mannerisms, being “girly.” My grandma on my dads side also, I remember in 8th grade I posted my first instagram post and I had cleavage in it, my grandma freaked out called my parents and that night my whole account was deleted.
“- this is what a girl does when placed and kept in a box for too long.”
“- I think that it will take a significant degree of freeing the caged girl from the box before you can figure appropriate self discipline vs over-self-discipline. The caged girl (over-tamed hatchling)- needs out of the box.”
What is interesting to me is I need to simultaneously release hatchling from this cage, but at the same time she is also driving the ship. It feels like hatchling is uncaged because she makes herself very known when N does something that resembles our fathers past behaviors.
“- he wanted you in the box: no curves and no original ideas (or humor) allowed.. In the box without anything that makes you.. you.”
You spoke a lot about being caged in a box, a “non-feminine, non-sexual/ tom boy box” and this really resonates with me. I think a part of me fears I was still in this box when N and I met two years ago, and now when I come out of my box he doesn’t understand me anymore, although this could just be projecting F into, but whether this is true or a projection I really don’t know.
“– out from the dark box to the surface where there’s light; out of the non-feminine, non-sexual/ tom boy box your father (not N) placed you in?” -Yes.
My roommate, “M” is many things that would fit into that box my dad wanted me in. She has both masculine and feminine energy but is very in touch with her masculine side. She is very laid back and does not like to feel her emotions. Her physic is literally what my dad wished I had so he didn’t need to worry about my curves being seen by men. She has a square toned muscular body with zero bodyfat, she was also a college athlete and her sense of humor can be boy-ish like N told me I lacked. The reason I bring all this up is because I worry that N met me in my box, and fell in love with her. There is a strange part of me and I don’t know if it comes from insecurity or a realistic idea, but that thinks N and M would be more compatible than me and N… If I was just friends with N and he was single and I was uninterested, I would match them on a date. Just as I wonder if there is someone more compatible for me I wonder if we can make eachother truly happy. Another reason I feel like he loves the boxed version of me is because him and my dad get along very well and honestly if I ended up with N, that is exactly what would make my dad comfortable with. N and I are very much friends and that is all my dad has ever wanted is for me to be with someone who is a buddy, not a romantic partner, which would make him uncomfortable. I wonder if N is a decision made by the boxed girl… sometimes I feel like N is the relationship I grow alot in and with, but that somehow it doesn’t work out, but then is that just because of my projecting F into N and I will regretfully manifest this relationships end? you spoke before about the self fulfilling prophecy,
Before when I said “I do believe I am unique. I think I project F into N in this scenario though, because I don’t feel like he thinks I am special.. I battle this. I often wonder if N would pick me from a room of women… I don’t know how much of this is projecting F into N“ (and you responded)” – I agree that you are unique but your craving to be unique is too strong.. like the starving person craving a steak, the craving leads to (1) frustrations that are too intense in regard to what’s lacking in the present..”
The thing is I know I have a desire to be unique, and I try to be mindful about how much is acceptable. I just don’t feel like N loves me because I am unique/special, I feel more like he loves me because I came along at a time in his life he was very alone and I am a level headed and fun person, but these are not unique to me, many girls are this way, but what separates us from eachother are our styles and personalities, which I don’t feel like N sees or really cares about… As I say that it does sound like I am projecting F into N, but at the same time I still feel like this could be true to an extent. I feel like he could just as easily fall in love with M as he did me (I need to work through this because this thought haunts me and makes me very aware of any sort of acknowledgment between them when we are all together). Like I feel his standards are very basic, but I don’t want someone who could fall in love with such different people, he calls love a choice and rationally like I get it but it also is not what I want to hear, he could just choose to love anyone? I don’t want to just be anyone and I feel like that with him and it makes me feel undervalued, not special, and not loved for who I AM.
– Think of this: two mothers take their children to their workplace. One child is used to be carefree and childlike at home. At the workplace, she plays, but not too loudly and she doesn’t run around breaking things. Much of the time she can sit still as she plays. And so, the mother and the child can co-exist at work.
I appreciate this visual.
with love,
Seaturtles
November 10, 2023 at 12:25 pm #424935seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
“You’ve been asking this to-be-or-not-to-be question since about November 2022, and still asking this question in November 2023, a whole year of asking and debating.”
I love you phrasing this in Shakespeare! It makes me not feel alone in this place, to be or not to be…
“Since I already did all the thinking last night, I’ll jump straight to my answer/ my suggestion: leave the relationship. Being conflicted about it for so long, and for close to half of the relationship is reason enough to leave it.”
This response makes me feel free. But it also makes me sad and makes me wonder if I incorrectly portrayed N in order to get this freeing answer. I have tried to be unbiased, but that is obviously impossible. My mom and sisters all think he is a great match, even my friends don’t understand me when I tell them I am not sure and certainly have doubts. Even my boss! N has done favors for the art gallery I work in and my boss thinks N is the most ideal man, tells me all the time how lucky we were to find eachother … It all definitely makes me question myself, but even through all of those doubts of separating from N, this statement is true : ” there is fear of leaving the relationship (finding out that your expectations were indeed too high and regretting leaving the relationship) and there is fear of staying in the relationship and missing possible great opportunities outside the relationship.”
I honestly wish it was N, I really do. After all, when I was young I prayed that I would meet my life partner young, so we could grow together, which is a main reason I have sat in “to be or not to be” for so long. The thought of ending it with N scares me, and I hope the freeing sensation isn’t a lie. What if that freeing sensation I imagine feeling, doesn’t happen and instead it is just that, “finding out that your expectations were indeed too high and regretting leaving the relationship.”
I know that an aspect of leaving the relationship, is the good moments that you remember. Like when we were at that cabin, and he helped me through the panic attack I had about my outfit and we felt so connected when we were out there alone… I have seen glimpses of N that I would want for the rest of my life. uh to be or not to be!
(I have more to say but need to go right now and thought maybe you would see this today, but if not no worries)
Seaturtles
November 10, 2023 at 6:58 pm #424945anitaParticipantDear Seaturtle: I will read and reply Sat morning.
anita
November 11, 2023 at 11:31 am #424953anitaParticipantDear Seaturtle:
“When you used the child with her mother at work… hatchling is the one who gets bored of my job and has me desiring new routines?”- yes.
Hatchling= all your automatic thoughts and emotional reactions in the present that started and took hold in childhood.
Seaturtle= thoughts and emotional reactions/ emotional experiences that did not take hold in childhood. This includes what you learned from books and online, including what you are learning here, in your thread, and including becoming aware of hatchling and how she operates within you as an observer, observing her from some distance.
“I definitely felt boxed in, but I think what was even more frustrating and quite paralyzing was not understanding why I felt that way“- understanding the why is Seaturtle’s job. It requires observing hatchling from some (mental) distance and figure out her why/ what motivates her, what causes her to feel and behave this or that way.
“Wanting to run out of my own body and just escape this box I didn’t know how got there or how to get away from. I wanted to please my dad and fit in that box for him“- a child will do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING to please the parent.
“My grandma on my dad’s side also, I remember in 8th grade I posted my first Instagram post and I had cleavage in it, my grandma freaked out called my parents and that night my whole account was deleted“- The Cleavage Scare=> Delete the Cleavage… Interesting.
“What is interesting to me is I need to simultaneously release hatchling from this cage, but at the same time she is also driving the ship“- a real-life child throwing a temper tantrum in the supermarket, insisting that her mother buys her ice-cream right there and then, is driving the ship only if her mother rushes to buy her the ice cream so to quiet her down.
The real-life child throwing a temper tantrum in the supermarket probably needs help in a different context: she probably needs positive attention at home.
“It feels like hatchling is uncaged because she makes herself very known“- as does a child throwing a temper tantrum… only she doesn’t make herself known in the right context (home) where she remains unknown.
“It feels like hatchling is uncaged because she makes herself very known when N does something that resembles our father’s past behaviors“- Like the child throwing a temper tantrum in the supermarket, hatchling needs your positive attention at home, home with you, Seaturtle, outside the context of your relationship with N.
Hatchling did all she could to please her father because her father was her first priority. Hatchling needs to be your first priority, a higher priority to you now than your father is r ever was.
“You spoke a lot about being caged in a box, a ‘non-feminine, non-sexual/ tom boy box’ and this really resonates with me. I think a part of me fears I was still in this box when N and I met two years ago, and now when I come out of my box he doesn’t understand me anymore, although this could just be projecting F into, but whether this is true or a projection I really don’t know”-
– it is possible that it is correct understanding on your part, and I never thought of it myself until just now reading this. It may be that N is discouraging you from making the changes that are healthy for you to make. People do resist changes in themselves and in others…
“I worry that N met me in my box, and fell in love with her…. I feel like he loves the boxed version of me… N and I are very much friends and that is all my dad has ever wanted is for me to be with someone who is a buddy, not a romantic partner, which would make him uncomfortable. I wonder if N is a decision made by the boxed girl…”- the boxed-in girl who still wants to please her father.. the boxed girl whose first priority is her father.
(I am responding to your posts my usual way, reading and responding to one part before reading the next).
S, N.. is F’s choice for you…???
“sometimes I feel like N is the relationship I grow a lot in and with, but that somehow it doesn’t work out, but then is that just because of my projecting F into N and I will regretfully manifest this relationships end? You spoke before about the self fulfilling prophecy”- I didn’t consider until THIS very post that N may prefer the girl in the box, that maybe he has been discouraging (???) the girl in the box from coming out and that your choice of N is.. your father’s choice.
Coming to think about it, you did say that your father is doing financially very well at his work and that N has .. you called it something like a millionaire attitude (like your father). Similar values and priorities.
“I feel like he could just as easily fall in love with M as he did me“- for M, being a tomboy may very well be who she genuinely is, it’s her.. out of the box version, while the same is your in the box (not genuine) version. I suppose that you think that a genuine tomboy version can easily win over a non-genuine tomboy version?
“he calls love a choice and rationally like I get it but it also is not what I want to hear, he could just choose to love anyone? I don’t want to just be anyone and I feel like that with him and it makes me feel undervalued, not special, and not loved for who I AM.“-
– hatchling needs to get out of the box, to leave her father’s expectations of who or what she should be. She needs to stop trying to please her father.. to stop the habit (an automatic habit by now) of trying to please him. Hatchling wants to be someone, someone who is valued and special, and that someone is who she gets to be and become outside the box.
“‘… leave the relationship. Being conflicted about it for so long, and for close to half of the relationship is reason enough to leave it”- This response makes me feel free. But it also makes me sad and makes me wonder if I incorrectly portrayed N in order to get this freeing answer… My mom and sisters all think he is a great match, even my friends don’t understand me when I tell them I am not sure and certainly have doubts. Even my boss! N has done favors for the art gallery I work in and my boss thinks N is the most ideal man, tells me all the time how lucky we were to find each other… The thought of ending it with N scares me, and I hope the freeing sensation isn’t a lie. What if that freeing sensation I imagine feeling, doesn’t happen and instead it is just that, ‘finding out that your expectations were indeed too high and regretting leaving the relationship.'”-
-I too thought that N was, as I wrote to you before, close to perfect (while no one is perfect). Like your mother, sisters, friends (and your father), I too supported the relationship because you described so many glowingly positive things about N. But now I understand more than I did before in the 8-pages of your thread.. Wow! I didn’t understand before that some of your understanding of N is not an incorrect understanding based on a projection of F into N, but may very well be a correct understanding of who he truly is.. which is someone who prefers your boxed-in version and in so doing.. he (unknowingly) is doing your father’s bidding, which is to keep you in the box.
To check my understanding, I ask: can you give me examples of N’s words and behaviors that indicate that he supports your in-the-box version and discourages your out-of-the-box version? For the examples to help me, they have to include a description of the objective circumstances, what words were said, and what actions took place (ex., in a restaurant, the waiter said XYZ, N said ABC, then N got up and left the restaurant, etc.), and not include what you thought or felt, how you perceived or interpreted the situation.
anita
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