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Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships

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Viewing 15 posts - 571 through 585 (of 594 total)
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  • #433785
    anita
    Participant

    Still typed on my phone: thank you 😊 ☺️ 🙂 🙏 (these emojis are the only ones that showed up for me) thank you, Helcat!

    Anita

    #433786
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Oh my gosh Anita! I have not yet read the messages, but I saw emojis on your post and I was so excited!

    Seaturtle

    #433787
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    Can I just say that “This is the first time EVER that I am typing a post using my phone, I don’t know how to copy and paste. Or how to find an exclamation mark, etc. Nonetheless, this is history in the making, znd it is done on your thread.” is my favorite message of yours I have ever read 😂

     

    Seaturtle

    #433788
    anita
    Participant

    Thank you, Seaturtle: I am still thrilled (not on the phone now, so no emojis in this post)!

    anita

    #433810
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Seaturtle:

    I have more time this morning, sitting in front of the computer, to reply to your yesterday’s posts more attentively. You asked me yesterday: “Him calling me selfish, cold and that I made him feel used. Those are things my father also told me. I don’t want to be those things, do you think those could be false selves?

    From Wikipedia/ true self and false self:

    “The true self (also known as real selfauthentic selforiginal self and vulnerable self) and the false self (also known as fake selfidealized selfsuperficial self and pseudo self) are a psychological dualism conceptualized by English psychoanalyst Donald Winnicott. Winnicott used ‘true self’ to denote a sense of self based on spontaneous authentic experience and a feeling of being alive, having a real self with little to no contradiction.<sup id=”cite_ref-2″ class=”reference”></sup> ‘False self’, by contrast, denotes a sense of self created as a defensive façade,<sup id=”cite_ref-:0_1-1″ class=”reference”></sup> which in extreme cases can leave an individual lacking spontaneity and feeling dead and empty behind an inconsistent and incompetent appearance of being real, such as in narcissism…<sup id=”cite_ref-:0_1-2″ class=”reference”></sup>

    “when what Winnicott was careful to describe as good enough parenting—i.e., not necessarily perfect<sup id=”cite_ref-4″ class=”reference”></sup>—was not in place, the infant’s spontaneity was in danger of being encroached on by the need for compliance with the parents’ wishes/expectations.<sup id=”cite_ref-5″ class=”reference”></sup> The result could be the creation of what Winnicott called the ‘false self’, where ‘other people’s expectations can become of overriding importance, overlaying or contradicting the original sense of self, the one connected to the very roots of one’s being’.<sup id=”cite_ref-6″ class=”reference”></sup> The danger he saw was that ‘through this false self, the infant builds up a false set of relationships, and by means of introjections even attains a show of being real’,<sup id=”cite_ref-7″ class=”reference”></sup> while, in fact, merely concealing a barren emptiness behind an independent-seeming façade”.

    * I will submit this post next because I expect lots of extra print because I pasted and copied from Wikipedia. In the next post, I will remove the extra print.

     

    #433811
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Seaturtle:

    I have more time this morning, sitting in front of the computer, to reply to your yesterday’s posts more attentively. You asked me yesterday: “Him calling me selfish, cold and that I made him feel used. Those are things my father also told me. I don’t want to be those things, do you think those could be false selves?

    From Wikipedia/ true self and false self:

    “The true self (also known as real selfauthentic selforiginal self and vulnerable self) and the false self (also known as fake selfidealized selfsuperficial self and pseudo self) are a psychological dualism conceptualized by English psychoanalyst Donald Winnicott. Winnicott used ‘true self’ to denote a sense of self based on spontaneous authentic experience and a feeling of being alive, having a real self with little to no contradiction.

    “‘False self’, by contrast, denotes a sense of self created as a defensive façade, which in extreme cases can leave an individual lacking spontaneity and feeling dead and empty behind an inconsistent and incompetent appearance of being real, such as in narcissism…

    “when what Winnicott was careful to describe as good enough parenting—i.e., not necessarily perfect—was not in place, the infant’s spontaneity was in danger of being encroached on by the need for compliance with the parents’ wishes/expectations. The result could be the creation of what Winnicott called the ‘false self’, where ‘other people’s expectations can become of overriding importance, overlaying or contradicting the original sense of self, the one connected to the very roots of one’s being’. The danger he saw was that ‘through this false self, the infant builds up a false set of relationships, and by means of introjections even attains a show of being real’, while, in fact, merely concealing a barren emptiness behind an independent-seeming façade”.

    Back to your words from yesterday: “I have been called ‘cold’ by the people that I do in fact intend to distance myself from. Like F, my friend P and N… Him calling me selfish, cold and that I made him feel used. Those are things my father also told me. I don’t want to be those things, do you think those could be false selves? Because if they are, then he saw them.. What do you think about the concept of the people we meet in life are mirrors into ourselves? I don’t like my reflection looking at him, does that make it wrong?”-

    – First, “What do you think about the concept of the people we meet in life are mirrors into ourselves?”-  the people we meet generally show us who they are, more than who we are. Generally, the mirrors we look at in others show us a murky mix of who they are and who we are.

    Second: “I have been called ‘cold’ by the people that I do in fact intend to distance myself from. Like F, my friend P and N… Him calling me selfish, cold and that I made him feel used. Those are things my father also told me. I don’t want to be those things, do you think those could be false selves?“- I don’t want to answer this because I don’t want to either join the people who call you cold, selfish and/ or a user, and I don’t want to tell you that you are not these things because you may be, at times.

    Therefore, I will tell you about me in regard to my true and false selves: my true self was loving and trusting and felt ALIVE, but then, it was terribly abused by my mother, twisted into knots and generally emptied of the feeling of being ALIVE. What followed was a feeling of emptiness, an inner death of sorts, depression, shame and guilt.

    My mother was paranoid and very much emotionally detached from me and often, angry at me. One of my false selves was the angry, judgmental self that was invested in a misguided loyalty to my abuser: I was angry at the people who hurt her, and since she claimed that everyone (sooner or later) was hurting her, I hated everyone, including myself. The purpose of this false self was to be on my mother’s side so that she will be.. on my side, so that she and I will be together.

    These days, I am in the process of dissolving this false self and resurrecting the generally trusting, loving self, loving and trusting myself and others.

    anita

     

    #433930
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Seaturtle:

    oceanic society. org:Sea turtles are often compared to dinosaurs due to their scaly, reptilian appearance. In fact, sea turtles were around at the same time as dinosaurs! That’s right, sea turtles as we know them today evolved 110 million years ago and have changed very little in the years since. This means that they not only coexisted with dinosaurs for around 45 million years, but they also outlived them, surviving the mass extinction event that took place approximately 65 million years ago

    Sea turtles take an extremely long time to grow from a hatchling into a reproductive adult. Depending on the species, a female sea turtle can take between 10 and 30+ years to lay her first eggs“- and the Sea Turtle OP of this thread is 25-years-old, still has time before laying her first eggs..?

    When sea turtles hatch from their nests, it’s thought that they learn their location using the Earth’s magnetic field, a phenomenon known as geomagnetic imprinting. Even after as many as 30 years, when a sea turtle hatchling becomes a mature adult, it remembers the location from which it was born, like an address. The turtle will then be able to navigate thousands of miles back to the same beach (or nearby beach) to lay its eggs“- thinking about you, Sea Turtle.

    anita

    #434562
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Hello Anita,

    I miss the time where we frequently talked, I feel bad that my schedule, since then has made my responses less frequent. Does this make you feel badly? When I am not on the site for a couple weeks, does it make you feel like I am selfish, using you, or cold?

    Also I apologize for my horribly grammatical phone message here a couple weeks ago. I won’t use my phone again because my autocorrect changed some words and it is just a small typing platform, but you did great with it!

     

    To your post June 12th

    “Let me ask you first: did you behave coldly and selfishly with him- Sometimes? Often? Rarely? Never?”

    Not never. I was cold when I felt cold. There were rare occasions where he would do something, and I would then be so bothered (like picking up the phone mid conversation). And after he did it, I found myself feeling cold, infact I disliked the feeling so much I almost wanted to just pretend not being cold, but as you know, I display my authentic feelings and in those moments I went silent and cold, while being kind and straight forward. I am glad you asked me this question so I could reflect, him calling me cold sometimes is accurate.

    June 13th you wrote:

    “…my true self was loving and trusting and felt ALIVE, but then, it was terribly abused by my mother, twisted into knots and generally emptied of the feeling of being ALIVE”

    It is helpful for me to hear about your experiences as it helps me express mine. For me ‘my true self was warm, but then was terribly abused, twisted into knots and generally emptied of the feeling of warmth. Leading to me feeling cold. My dad was also paranoid and emotionally detached from me, angry at me.. And I also feel it created and angry, judgemental and misguided loyalty. Everyone hurt him so I hated everyone including myself. All with the purpose of his acceptance, “togetherness.”

    “The danger he saw was that ‘through this false self, the infant builds up a false set of relationships, and by means of introjections even attains a show of being real’, while, in fact, merely concealing a barren emptiness behind an independent-seeming façade”. “

    After reading about false selves being created by needy parents who deprive their child’s spontaneity, I am tracing back to times I remember feeling my spontaneity was shut down, and times my parents were needy. I am trying to put together how/ which experiences I went through created this “barren emptiness.” It honestly feels like I have only been out of this “show of being real,” since I was 20 years old. I certainly had people and moments I was real with, but through my childhood I remember very clearly feeling like my real self was too awkward to be, so I just behaved like what I thought would blend in, or be accepted. When I started dating in fact, at about 20, I promised myself to be my real self. But I was out of practice. There are parts of my real self that I have not been comfortable to be around certain people. In the past few years I have challenged myself to really be myself, but it is delicate and if rejected too much I put it back on the shelf.. I felt the majority of my real self was rejected and judged by N. It is making me wonder if he only appeared to accept me in the beginning, then when he got tired it started to show that he didn’t anymore.. why would this happen? There is no question I did my best to show him me, and did not receive that from him. I honestly don’t think I ever saw his truest self, either him hiding it or not even knowing it himself..  It is out of the relationship, the past 6 months that I have been able to be my real self, I am not afraid to be rejected by new people and find it so exciting to find people who are real with me. That attitude has lead me to new relationships with new people and even some family members. If you’d like to ignore the note I made connecting this to my relationship with N I would completely understand, I almost deleted it wondering if it was only redundant and shouldn’t let myself be so curious about him the relationship still.

    Seaturtle

    #434563
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    To your June 17th post,

    I do wonder how much I have in common with an actual seaturtle. And yes, I very intentionally have time before having my own hatchlings. I want to make sure I am swimming in the correct direction, to the right beach.

    Seaturtle

    #434570
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Seaturtle:

    “When I am not on the site for a couple weeks, does it make you feel like I am selfish, using you, or cold?”- no. When you don’t reply to me for an couple of weeks, I think that you don’t have a desire to talk to me, or you have the desire to not talk to me. At times I felt a bit hurt, a bit angry.

    Also I apologize for my horribly grammatical phone message here a couple weeks ago“- I didn’t notice or I don’t remember a horribly grammatical message by you.

    but you did great with it!“- thank you!

    “To your post June 12th“… did you behave coldly and selfishly with him- Sometimes? Often? Rarely? Never?”- Not never… I went silent and cold, while being kind and straight forward… him calling me cold sometimes is accurate”- it’s a good thing that you didn’t go silent and cold and then erupt with rage (my mother’s pattern).

    When you say “silent and cold”, you mean silently hurt and angry?

    “For me ‘my true self was warm, but then was terribly abused, twisted into knots and generally emptied of the feeling of warmth. Leading to me feeling cold. My dad was also paranoid and emotionally detached from me, angry at me.. And I also feel it created an angry, judgmental and misguided loyalty. Everyone hurt him so I hated everyone including myself. All with the purpose of his acceptance, ‘togetherness.'”-

    – wait, these are your words or mine (all of it, with warmth substituting the feeling of being ALIVE (my words).. ?

    “I am trying to put together how/ which experiences I went through created this ‘barren emptiness.’… I felt the majority of my real self was rejected and judged by N…. It is out of the relationship, the past 6 months that I have been able to be my real self, I am not afraid to be rejected by new people and find it so exciting to find people who are real with me. That attitude has lead me to new relationships with new people”– I boldfaced the good news: you are mentally healthier following the breakup, congrats!!!

    Yes, I very intentionally have time before having my own hatchlings. I want to make sure I am swimming in the correct direction, to the right beach.“- swimming in the correct direction is key (It’s the journey)

    anita

    #434714
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    “When you don’t reply to me for an couple of weeks, I think that you don’t have a desire to talk to me, or you have the desire to not talk to me. At times I felt a bit hurt, a bit angry.”

    I appreciate your honesty. I am sorry you have felt that way. Those certainly aren’t my reasons, I think about you often as I would a close friend. I think the struggle is it is a long distance friendship. If we met in person I am sure we would talk for a few hours, back and forth, the same amount we get across in several days here. I don’t have anyone else I talk to virtually like this or for that matter have a need to open my computer more than once a week. Last summer when we spoke daily, I was on my computer daily for work. I suspected you feeling a certain way and just wanted to avoid any built up feelings because I would like to stay friends! You are important to me.

    “When you say “silent and cold”, you mean silently hurt and angry?”

    I would say silently hurt for sure, I wouldn’t say “angry” it was more like disappointment and frustration that he didn’t have more care for my feelings. Because he knew it bothered me when he answered the phone while we were spending planned time together, but he preferred answering the phone to my feelings. That was an issue in general was him repeating things after I had already told him they hurt my feelings, like answering the phone, being late or smoking with our roommate as I fell asleep alone.

    “– wait, these are your words or mine (all of it, with warmth substituting the feeling of being ALIVE (my words).. ?”

    I was using your words to help me express mine 🙂 the layout of what you said and content had alot of similarities to me so I thought it would be a helpful exercise for me. I bolded the words that I changed for my experience.

    “you are mentally healthier following the breakup, congrats!!!”

    Thank you 🙂

    Did you celebrate the fourth of July yesterday? if so what did you do?

     

    Seaturtle

    #434716
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Dear Helcat,

    I wrote a response to you that is “awaiting moderation,” I am not sure why! But just so you know 🙂

    Seaturtle

    #434717
    Helcat
    Participant

    Hi Seaturtle

    Happy 4th of July!

    Thanks for letting me know! That was very kind of you. I look forward to reading your message. I’m sure it will be through soon enough. 😊

    Love and best wishes! ❤️🙏

    #434719
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Seaturtle:

    Good ton read from you, friend! 4th of July, I celebrated by mowing a huge area for 3 hours, under the sun and the big blue skies with an eagle flying above, all alone (no other humans) because everyone was downtown, or elsewhere, celebrating. And why, you might ask, did I not join the festivities? Because I have Covid, 3rd day now (Covid face emoji, if there is such an emoji).

    I am exhausted but okay, sort of. I hope you had a great 4th of July!

    Please feel comfortable to post here whenever you want. Emotionally, I am okay to read from you as frequently or as infrequently as you happen to post, and I mean it! So, post whenever you will, if you will, I am here.

    anita

    #434715
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Dear Helcat,

    “I think it is apt because sea turtles are peaceful, gentle souls, they live to a long age which represents wisdom. They are adventurous and free spirited. You share all of these qualities. 😊

    I like all those things! Thank you 🙂

    “You might not feel it and see it as much yet. But since you first message you’ve grown a lot. You’re still the same awesome person, but you are trusting your intuition more and finding your voice. It’s lovely to see. Long may it continue!”

    Cheers to this. On my recent trip home I also had some family members tell me similar things. That they see growth happening.

    I don’t want this to let me avoid being in another relationship, but I have this new fear that came along with the positive growth, and it is that I will lose myself in a relationship again. But that would have to mean I stop listening to my intuition again, so my solution has been to really get in line with my intuition so I don’t ignore it repetitively, again. Relationships create a barrier between me and my intuition.. I wonder why this is and if it is possible to get my intuition to always be at my forefront.. ?

    Anita, I’d also love your thoughts on this!

     

    “Ah well Buddhism has a great deal to say about attachment. I would recommend looking into that side of it as well. I’m sure you’ll have lots of fun.”

    I will thanks for the recommendation.

    “It is honestly very hard to maintain a warm demeanour in difficult situations especially with people that aren’t necessarily trusted.”

    I have an intuition question. When we don’t trust someone, how do we tell if it is because of our own trauma or it is our intuition?

    I actually have similar difficulties. For me, it’s the feeling of vulnerability that I don’t like. I feel very soft and squishy during disagreements, easily hurt. I used to think that the only way to protect myself was to emotionally distance myself from the situation.”

    This is how I feel in hard conversations with a loved one as well. It’s strange, it’s like there is a part of me that really wants to skip to the end of the conversation and hug. But I cannot accept a hug during the disagreement, I feel repulsed by closeness, but I love closeness so I get irritated that I feel that way. I would get upset with N because he (the situation with him) made me feel repulsed by closeness, yet I knew that is all I really needed/wanted. I think it was this contradiction that was the most painful part, and I wanted out of that space so badly, and so did he, that we didn’t truly finish many disagreements and instead skipped to the end.

    “I read something that basically said that if you approach a relationship with negativity it will not heal. Whereas if you approach a relationship with positivity, the person will be inspired by your character and respond in kind. Not entirely true. But that is what ancient Chinese philosophy is like. 😂

    It is certainly optimistic. If only positivity was all it took to heal a relationship.

    Did you have a good fourth of July?

    Seaturtle

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