November 11, 2023 at 11:40 am #424954
One more thing, Seaturtle: I forgot to comment on “‘finding out that your expectations were indeed too high and regretting leaving the relationship.’“- leaving the box is not an unreasonable desire or expectation. It is not a too high of an expectation to be free.
To be free or not, should be the question, I say.
anitaNovember 12, 2023 at 6:57 pm #424969
These excerpts from your last post stood out to me and I will reflect on more and respond in the morning, when I can enter a more intensional space. I was curious to read your reply, but can only partially respond this evening (due to my Shakespeare Play obligations).
a real-life child throwing a temper tantrum in the supermarket, insisting that her mother buys her ice-cream right there and then, is driving the ship only if her mother rushes to buy her the ice cream so to quiet her down.
“It feels like hatchling is uncaged because she makes herself very known“- as does a child throwing a temper tantrum… only she doesn’t make herself known in the right context (home) where she remains unknown.
Hatchling did all she could to please her father because her father was her first priority. Hatchling needs to be your first priority, a higher priority to you now than your father is r ever was.
S, N.. is F’s choice for you…???
– I don’t know this for sure, but I think if I ended up with N, then F would be very accepting, he offers to pay for N’s ticket to come on family trips and he even lets us have our own room and space. It seems like he encourages the relationship, or maybe he IS just supporting it because he sees his daughter treated well… What I am saying is I fear making decisions out of what my dad wants, because it got me nowhere for so long and prevented me from actually discovering what I wanted and who I was. So when my dad supports the decision I think It makes me wonder why I want it, is it because I am still being controlled. by him? Or do I trust my own pull towards N.
– I didn’t consider until THIS very post that N may prefer the girl in the box, that maybe he has been discouraging (???) the girl in the box from coming out and that your choice of N is.. your father’s choice.
It is my fear that he won’t approve of the girl more outside of the box, because when we met, two years ago, I wasn’t as self aware as I am now. We spent saturday together this week and I actually spoke with him about this caged girl, I told him what the cages requirements were and how it held me from being truly feminine and curvy, and sensitive. He responded with something that counteracted my fear that he won’t also love the girl out of the cage. He recognized his own behavior of recommending modesty, particularly on stage at my play. I play a barmaid, and in the 1500s they are very boisterous and my top is low, he commented after the shower that I had a lot of “titty” showing, lol. It wasn’t a judgemental tone, it was more a concerned one and it made me pull up my shirt for performances after, I just immediately let him impact my behavior (just like I let F impact my behavior, so it gave me a familiar feeling and fear that N wanted me in the cage too). But then on Saturday when we spoke about the caged girl, he literally on his own brought up the top from the show, and after I told him my dad prevented me from showing curves in that cage, he said “Oh no I did that to you about your costume,” I really appreciated that he recognized that, then he followed it by saying “Do what you need to do baby, I trust your feelings” It caught be by surprise, but at the same time fell into his character well so that did help fight my fear of him wanting the caged girl.
The way I feel about N changes more than I want it to. Some days I don’t see how it will work, then other days, like today, I feel more optimistic. After finally getting a whole day alone yesterday I feel more supported by him. I realize that all this inner child work with hatchling was initiated because she has had a lot to say through this relationship, and he is actually the one who told me about the playhouse that I am at right now and encouraged me to sign up. So I think he does encourage me to leave that cage, but I think I am very afraid of coming out of the cage and not being accepted by him… Just as the uncaged girl was not accepted by F and put into the cage by him. It is like hatchling is coming out, and afraid another man will throw her back in. If I get the slightest sense of N doing this, a whole alarm system goes on in my nervous system.
I will respond more fully to both of your most recent replies in the morning, for now this is what immediately came to mind when I read part of your reply, but I only had about 30 minutes to type.
SeaturtlesNovember 13, 2023 at 7:58 am #424977
I read your wish that I sleep well last (Sun) night and although I was too awake for some of the night, eventually I slept well. Thank you! I am impressed that you found the time to reply yesterday, being that you were busy with obligations in regard to the Shakespearean play you are part of. Plus, I don’t expect you to reply on weekends.
“(F) offers to pay for N’s ticket to come on family trips and he even lets us have our own room and space. It seems like he encourages the relationship“- he is encouraging and supporting the relationship big time.
“I fear making decisions out of what my dad wants, because it got me nowhere for so long and prevented me from actually discovering what I wanted and who I was. So when my dad supports the decision I think It makes me wonder why I want it, is it because I am still being controlled. by him? Or do I trust my own pull towards N“-
– you don’t know then if your pull towards N is about your need to please F (being controlled by this need) OR it is a pull that is free from this need.
“We spent Saturday together this week and I actually spoke with him about this caged girl, I told him what the cage’s requirements were and how it held me from being truly feminine and curvy, and sensitive…. he followed it by saying ‘Do what you need to do baby, I trust your feelings‘”- no evidence yet that he prefers the girl in the box.
“After finally getting a whole day alone yesterday I feel more supported by him… I think he does encourage me to leave that cage, but I think I am very afraid of coming out of the cage and not being accepted by him… Just as the uncaged girl was not accepted by F and put into the cage by him. It is like hatchling is coming out, and afraid another man will throw her back in. If I get the slightest sense of N doing this, a whole alarm system goes on in my nervous system”-
– make a commitment to hatchling that you will be there for her every step of the way as she leaves the box, tell her that you will not put her back in the cage no matter what N or anyone does.
” do I trust my own pull towards N“?- hatchling needs to trust Seaturtle. This is why it is necessary that you make hatchling a PROMISE: to take her hand and walk her through leaving the box and moving away from the box step by step, staying away from it forevermore, no matter what anyone says or does.
anitaNovember 13, 2023 at 11:27 am #424983
(This is the rest of my response to your reply on November 10th)
“It crossed my mind, that if it was possible, a great solution would have been to put Earth on Pause, leave to another planet, have quality psychotherapy there for 6 months-a year (where you’d talk and process all that we talked about here on your thread), then return to earth (with your therapist to guide you), and Un-pause life on earth. Take it from there.”
I wish this were possible as well, because like I said before, I feel like there are two battles I am fighting at the same time. One being the majority of what has been on this forum, projecting F into N and all those consequences, then battle two of even if I am totally healed is N the right person for me then, cause if so I want to power through, if not then I think battle one would be easier to work through alone.
“Back to what you shared 3 days ago about your father: “he would promote outfits that made me look like a box. I am a curvy girl... The story: I was 11 years old, my friends were playing outside, my friend S was allowed to wear whatever she wanted… my dad stopped me and said the shorts were inappropriate and I needed to change to longer ones… This is my first memory of having suicidal thoughts”. Less than an hour later, on the same day, you wrote: “N brings out my tom-boy behaviors… I miss my femininity. I sort of feel like I want a man that brings the parts of me I love, out to the surface“- “
See this portion is what I feel is part of battle two. When I label the battles one and two, I mean them to be sequential, one needs to happen before two can. I am not sure if my feeling that N doesn’t understand me outside of my cage is me projecting F into him or if it is what is really happening, or both! At this moment in time, I would like to focus on battle one, as we have been doing. I want to heal my relationship with hatchling, gain her trust, even if that means losing N. I just really want to be clear on what hatchling needs before I make that drastic decision though because he means a lot to Seaturtle.
(The following is my more thorough response to your reply on November 11th)
“Seaturtle= thoughts and emotional reactions/ emotional experiences that did not take hold in childhood. This includes what you learned from books and online, including what you are learning here, in your thread, and including becoming aware of hatchling and how she operates within you as an observer, observing her from some distance.”
Have you read the book the Untethered Soul? When you phrase it this way, that hatchling is operating in me as an observer. Although hatchling does more than observe, would it be correct to say that both hatchling and Seaturtle observe each other then and also both act? Anyways the reason I bring up the book is it speaks about an “inner roommate,” I wonder if this is a metaphor for hatchling, it also speaks about you, I assume the adult self Seaturtle in control, can be an observer of your own thoughts, or “hatchling.”
“- a real-life child throwing a temper tantrum in the supermarket, insisting that her mother buys her ice-cream right there and then, is driving the ship only if her mother rushes to buy her the ice cream so to quiet her down.”
Are drug addicts/alcoholics run by their inner child? I find that when I have wine with my friends it happens and ends naturally, but sometimes after what has felt like a long day I crave a couple glasses of wine, I wonder if giving in to this want is in response to hatchling having a sort of tantrum? Or even actual food/ice cream cravings, are all non essential cravings hatchling?
“The real-life child throwing a temper tantrum in the supermarket probably needs help in a different context: she probably needs positive attention at home.”
If what I said above is true, and unproductive or even destructive cravings are giving in to your inner child’s tantrum, then all of this could be solved with proper self care/”positive attention at home” ? Is proper self care the answer to unhealthy cravings in general? and maybe even addiction?
“only she doesn’t make herself known in the right context (home) where she remains unknown.”
Why does hatchling make herself known outside of the home, how is she more known outside of the right context (home)?
“It feels like hatchling is uncaged because she makes herself very known when N does something that resembles our father’s past behaviors“- Like the child throwing a temper tantrum in the supermarket, hatchling needs your positive attention at home, home with you, Seaturtle, outside the context of your relationship with N.”
“hatchling needs your positive attention at home, home with you, Seaturtle” – I want to learn how to do this. It sounds sad, but unsurprising as hatchling has been having tantrums, but I don’t think I fully know what this is. Is the positive attention that she/I need personal to hatchling? Or is it just typical self care like spa days, keeping your home and body clean in general? Is it simply doing what makes me happy, such as art and acting? I am trying to imagine as if she were a child out of my body, how to make her feel cared for and to trust me. I want to be there for myself. I want to be here for me.
“Coming to think about it, you did say that your father is doing financially very well at his work and that N has .. you called it something like a millionaire attitude (like your father). Similar values and priorities.”
Yes they are similar in the way of being money driven in their careers. Whereas I am taking a different route, I am trying to follow what I love and I am narrowing in on it but it makes it to where I am changing up what I do alot. So to someone with their mindset they say stick with it, because that is when profit starts to happen, but this does not resonate with me I move on a more abstract path and to me “profit” does not equal actual dollars. They are similar in how much they work, and I believe a similar motivation is because working is easier than sitting with their thoughts and feelings, something they both don’t think is productive, so they obviously don’t understand why I do it. However N is more accepting of me in that way, versus F who makes fun of it and just does not understand at all, which is odd cause he does see a therapist… I have felt before like N doubts my method to find what I want in this world, he has told me he doesn’t trust me financially, which I understand because I do not have savings and I barely make more than my rent every month at this art gallery right now. It gives me stress too but I want to act in a play rather than demean myself and go work nights for tips like he would encourage if I brought up. Tips for serving food and drinks, no more haha just to be clear he would not be ok with that and neither would I, no judgement to others I just didn’t want you to think he would encourage me to go that far. Anyways, his doubt in my methods make me doubt myself, wonder if I am playing it too risky and need to be more dollar oriented. But I just have this belief that if I keep following what inspires me it will guide me and the financial means will follow with hard work in that direction. N has said I live in a fantasy world believing things will work out, but I also think he believes in me, it’s just he is wary. One more note on F and N’s millionaire attitude, yes they both follow the money, but what they want the money for is very different. My dad buys luxury gifts for himself and his girlfriend and spends a week a month at a 5 star resort drinking by the pool and playing pickle ball. Which does sound like a fun lifestyle I do admit. However, N’s style feels better to me. He wants to travel the world, stay in nice places but that is not the focus, he talks about all the things he wants to see, he wants a boat to travel for months at a time, he wants to retire young so he can do all this. It sounds wonderful to me as well, but I don’t quite know yet how my lifestyle will meld with his, because I don’t know if I will be retiring early, I having a feeling one of my arts (painting, drawing, acting) will start to take off and I will want to keep doing them. Maybe I just trust the process though?
“I feel like he could just as easily fall in love with M as he did me“- for M, being a tomboy may very well be who she genuinely is, it’s her.. out of the box version, while the same is your in the box (not genuine) version. I suppose that you think that a genuine tomboy version can easily win over a non-genuine tomboy version?
-“I suppose that you think that a genuine tomboy version can easily win over a non-genuine tomboy version?” In the eyes of a guy (maybe N) who wants a tomboy, yes. I wonder if he wants a tomboy, I don’t know if he appreciates or particularly likes my more girlie/feminine side that I only want to dive further into. Saturday morning N and I went to breakfast. We had a nice night together after my play, and I love going out to breakfast in the morning, this spot we found has deliciously made fresh food that makes me feel good. We were talking on a real level, which we don’t always get to do because we see each other mostly after work when he is too tired to talk about deeper things (it energizes me so I am always up for it). But anyways, we were in a ‘real talk’ space and I began to ask him reflection questions on our year living together. It has been a bit over a month of me at this apartment and it felt like a good enough distance away now to reflect. He said it was good and hard but that we were stronger, but I wanted more of an answer than that. I asked him what he meant by “hard parts,” and he said there were times he didn’t know which of us was right (often during my trigger responses, I knew it was not all his fault I felt the way I did but my inability to explain irrational reactions to specific things, was confusing for him) and he felt very alone. I asked him, “through all the parts of living together that were tough, from my triggers confusing you to times I blamed you, through all the bad parts, why did you decide to stay with me?” and he said “Because we always came to a compromise, you listened to my perspective and understood in the end, you are really good at that.” I appreciated hearing this, even though I asked for it. Although I need help as to why this was one of my following thoughts: Does he just want to be with me because I am a good communicator? How low is his bar for a relationship? Do I want this relationship if he only loves me because I am fun, pretty, and above average at communicating?. These thoughts are not new, but it was unpleasant to feel them when we are having a good morning, we are spending the day together. I didn’t fester on these thoughts, instead I decided to have a peaceful day with someone I love to be around and overlook the feeling of meeting his low standards. This is why I even worry about him having feelings for M, because if his bar is low, where I am, then there are a lot of things that may seem better to him than me. Something positive I thought about to keep my mind optimistic was how I would love for him to be the father of my children. He will be an amazing dad, is that reason enough to stay with someone? I have doubt that he loves all of me, instead just a portion of me, which only short changes both of us in the end.
(I also read and respond as I go, before reading the entirety)
(I don’t want to change this part of your response into the bold, like I usually do, because it will take away from what you bolded, so the next to portions are you, Anita and the third is Seaturtle’s reply)
“he calls love a choice and rationally like I get it but it also is not what I want to hear, he could just choose to love anyone? I don’t want to just be anyone and I feel like that with him and it makes me feel undervalued, not special, and not loved for who I AM.“-
– hatchling needs to get out of the box, to leave her father’s expectations of who or what she should be. She needs to stop trying to please her father.. to stop the habit (an automatic habit by now) of trying to please him. Hatchling wants to be someone, someone who is valued and special, and that someone is who she gets to be and become outside the box.
So this feeling I have, that he does not “love all of me” and that I feel I am “undervalued” and “not special.” Are you saying that these thoughts/feelings have nothing to do with N? Because that would mean that, going back to my two battles analogy, that winning battle one (getting out of the cage fully), would make battle two (Is he right for me, do I love him, are we the right love for eachother) irrelevant or just answered simultaneously? Let me know if this two battles analogy is making sense to you or if I should explain more, because it makes sense in my head but I am not sure how it is fully translating.
“To check my understanding, I ask: can you give me examples of N’s words and behaviors that indicate that he supports your in-the-box version and discourages your out-of-the-box version? For the examples to help me, they have to include a description of the objective circumstances, what words were said, and what actions took place (ex., in a restaurant, the waiter said XYZ, N said ABC, then N got up and left the restaurant, etc.), and not include what you thought or felt, how you perceived or interpreted the situation.”
Okay so I think he does do things that me think he supports my in-the-box version, however it is not necessarily that he discourages my out of box version. I think he is more comfortable with my in-box version. I describe this as my behaviors that made my dad happy, when I was (trying to be) money driven, athletic outdoors, sporty, a left-brained thinker, believing that feelings are mostly not real, working hard, no breaks! Evening taking out the trash, I say this one because it gives me a similar energy feeling as this whole category, living in my apartment with a girl roommate, we just split the chore it doesn’t bother me too much, but while I lived with N I didn’t want to do the “dirty” chores, I felt the guy should and I will make the house homey, which was unappreciated. I felt he thought that making it clean and cozy was a lesser chore but he did not like when I expected him to do things like that. I get into this trash chore because in general, the box required me to live in a more masculine energy, and that is not who I am, nothing wrong with women who are. I feel there are different ways I contribute that allow me to be in my feminine, which feeds me as opposed to the masculine where I am more drained. Sometimes I took out the trash and was fine with it with N, maybe he had a long day at work and I had energy, but there was something about him asking me to do it, or if I asked him he would say why cant you…and I just wanted to be like cause I’m a girl lol I don’t know if this is just stupid but I wanted to sort of journal and elaborate here on that feeling. Now here are examples of him encouraging my in-the-box version (aka what my dad would also say):
-M asked me if I wanted to join an indoor soccer team with her and I told N and he said “you should do that!” in an excited tone
-I don’t like movies with gross boy humor, and he said “you lack some sense of humor”
-Pulls up movie in comedy,drama section about black people growing up in a tough town. Said I hadn’t watched it, (my rommate was here) and M says ” you haven’t seen that? hahaha uncultured swine! haha just kidding” N was in approval. N said “you wouldn’t like this movie.
-When we went to palm springs with his parents I packed a bathing suit I liked and he said “you are going to wear that infront of my family?
-I bring up what I think is a small conversation that is energizing for me and he responds “all you want to do it talk about feelings”
I am having a hard time coming up with specifics, by I feel he supports me in the box because I know that he would be “impressed” with me if I did things as that boxed girl. If I wanted to go dirt biking with him, or aim my career to be money driven, or like gross boy humor, that he would like me to be all those things. Like we get along best when I am doing something in those categories with him, like I be his bro/pal/buddy. He loves when I get bro-ish with him, play video games with him, that kind of stuff. I mean I also like when he joins my art stuff which he occasionally does. I feel like I am losing my point in this response to you question, let me know if it shed any light or perhaps changed your mind in some way? I will think more about this question of how he encourages the in-the-box girl.
With love and appreciation,
Seaturtle and hatchlingNovember 13, 2023 at 11:49 am #424984
(this is my reply to your message November 13th)
“To be free or not, should be the question, I say.”
This question is much easier to answer than, to be or not to be in the relationship. I choose free!
“– you don’t know then if your pull towards N is about your need to please F (being controlled by this need) OR it is a pull that is free from this need.”
Exactly. And I think this is a monumental statement that is the umbrella for a lot of my doubts and negative thoughts and fears about the relationship.
” do I trust my own pull towards N“?- hatchling needs to trust Seaturtle. This is why it is necessary that you make hatchling a PROMISE: to take her hand and walk her through leaving the box and moving away from the box step by step, staying away from it forevermore, no matter what anyone says or does.
-Yes I am attempting to promise this and have it be believed, and also to truly mean it when I say it.
SeaturtlesNovember 13, 2023 at 4:44 pm #424999
Dear Seaturtle: I will get back to you in the morning. Have a good evening and night!
anitaNovember 14, 2023 at 6:14 am #425007
(this post is not a response, but a journal entry)
This morning I feel not well in my head.
Sunday night I was having a relaxing evening and fell asleep on the couch, I slept from 9pm-1:30am, about 4 1/2 hours. I came to to my room, washed my face and laid in bed, I couldn’t fall back to sleep, I was awake from 1:30-6am just eyes closed mind racing. Ended up dozing off for maybe an hour at about 6am-7am, then woke up again, then slept another 30 min or so and finally just got up at about 8am. This sleep was induced by wine and nicotine, which is new to me. I smoked a vape for the first time a couple weeks ago after drinking for fun with friends, the combination was so relaxing I craved it again about 4 times since, twice now I have been alone. I don’t feel good after I feel dry and my throat hurts, I don’t want to be addicted to this drug so I limit it to when I drink wine which is a few times a week with my roommate or alone, I don’t believe it has yet become a problem, but I am also very aware of having two alcoholic parents and I don’t want to be like them which often keeps me from it.
When I was finally up at 8am on monday, I was having bad cramps, as happens occasionally on my cycle. With the lack of sleep and painful cramps I decided to call out of work. I ended up having a very productive day, as I often do when calling out of work. I came to the “tiny buddah” forum in the morning for some self reflection and growth, I was in the space for about 2-3 hours. I then took a break to have some lunch, turn on the tv and do some laundry. After about an hour of those activities I turned the tv to soothing music and began a new course online to learn about affiliate marketing, because if I can find a way to work from home/various cafes and locations, that would be ideal for me, I really don’t like going to my 10-5 every day. It was fun for a while but now I feel like I have to do the same thing every day and it no longer feels authentic. I sell art in a gallery and it was first fun, now I feel it is mundane and boring. After two hours of coursework on this 15 day master class I invested in, I finished the laundry, cleaned up the house, then left to meet two friends at a hot yoga class.
Hot yoga felt great, as always. I came home that evening, had a healthy dinner, no wine or anything, I was inspired by my yoga class. I watched tv with my roommate then came to bed at about 11 pm, I wanted to be in bed earlier but I lost sight of that vision while talking with my roommate about the winter soups I want to try to make with the blender I got for christmas last year from my dad. Once in bed I was on my phone searching for more free trials of yoga classes, often first class being free, I also looked at cycling classes, I wanted to sign up for the morning but since it was midnight by that point I thought I should let myself get good sleep, so I booked a class for 5:45 pm, after work for today.
However, and this is where my desire to journal entry came in. I woke up at 4am, and couldn’t fall back asleep, just like the previous night. My thoughts about everything going on in my life just came flooding in. I told myself, these are irrelevant while I am laying on my bed, I can sleep and deal with these later. The thoughts temporarily stopped, but sure enough found myself in them again moments later. This happened for about an hour and I just decided waking up was less painful then laying down trying to sleep, even though I feel so tired. I decided to start my self reflection early this morning, maybe hatchling is trying to wake me up to tell me something.
To open up the pace I began reading my inner child book I recently started, “Healing The Child Within” by Charles L. Whitefield M.D. But the book took me down a dark path. I finished chapter five on “Parental Conditions that tend to stifle the child within,” reading it I had mental and physical responses I didn’t expect and still feel. I read the section on ‘Development of Codependence,’ recognizing both my parents were codependent. My dad a workaholic, and current alcoholic, although I am not sure if that started while I was young, I know for sure by the time I was 16/17. My mom was an alcoholic, always a glass of wine in the home I lived ages 7-15, before then I can’t recall, but it is still current. neither get aggressive, both parents get kinder and more lenient and sweet when they drink. The chapter included alot of other people’s stories as adults and how having codependent parents has affected their lives. I relate to every one of them in one way or another and reading them gives me a deep bodily pain, I don’t want to keep reading but I need to.
a couple book excerpts I underlined
“And because we stuff our feelings, we are unable to grieve our everyday losses to completion”
“We learn that ‘quick fixes’ such as compulsive behaviors will allows us to glimpse our True Self and will let off some of the tension” -which is perhaps why I called out of work… Although I was in physical pain and tired
Reading all the signs of co-dependence are things that resonate with me 🙁
The commonalities listed amongst all the stories of those who had co-dependent parents are inconsistent, unpredictable, arbitrary (day to day), chaotic, and mistreatment. Something very strange happened while I was reading the section under ‘Chaotic.’ It starts “Chaos may be manifested by any of the following….” but once I got to 3 my body glitched, I don’t know how to describe this feeling but I read all three, and once I read three my body literally had a millisecond of a seizure, my eyes closed and my body stuttered, like my whole body just pulsed at once, eyes shut muscles clenched, then just as abruptly released and eyes opened. It was unlike anything I have experienced, but was half a second long altogether. 1-3 read as such
“(1) physical or emotional abuse, which reaches the child shame, guilt, and “don’t feel;” (2) sexual abuse, which teaches the same, plus distrust and fear of losing control; (3) regular and repeated crisis, which teach a crisis orientation to life;”
-there were two more but right after three is when my body just fully twitched. I finished the chapter, with a feeling like I am not in control of this terror I feel inside. I know I will have mental clarity again, but still in this moment I feel afraid I am stuck in the feeling I have now which is anguish and tension.
I read this list here under the heading “Some Terms for Mental, Emotional, and Spiritual Trauma That May Be Experienced by Children and Adults.” It then says:
Abuse: Physical — spanking, beating, torture, sexual, etc.
Mental — Covert sexual (See below)
Emotional — (see below)
Spiritual — (see below and text)
[here there is a long list of verbs that correlate to these types of abuse, I relate to almost all but I will include ones that feel most important]
“Inflicting guilt, criticizing, joking about, laughing at, teasing, manipulating, deceiving, tricking, betraying, hurting, being cruel, belittling, intimidating, patronizing, overpowering/bullying, controlling, limiting, withdrawing, not taking seriously, discrediting, invalidating, misleading, disapproving, making light of or minimizing your feelings, wants or needs, breaking promises, raising hopes falsely, responding inconsistently/arbitrarily, making vague demands”
reading this list made my body so tense, I feel like hatchling is terrified. I do not feel good this morning, but I can’t call out of work again. Maybe my cycling class will help me sleep tonight. I hope it is a low maintenance day at work. My vibrations feel low and threatened. The book says talking these things out will help me.
Seaturtle and hatchlingNovember 14, 2023 at 10:23 am #425018
* A comment following having just read the ending of your post from this morning, and having just completed my long reply this morning (about to submit it in a moment): you had a tough time most recently and probably a challenging day at work, so please rest and take your time before reading this reply. You can postpone reading it to tomorrow, or even longer. Also, you can read one part, and read another part at a later time. No reason to rush.
I will respond to your 2 responses in this reply:
“I feel like there are two battles I am fighting at the same time. One being the majority of what has been on this forum, projecting F into N and all those consequences, then battle two of even if I am totally healed is N the right person for me… one (battle) needs to happen before two can“-
-it’s about removing the projection of F into N and seeing N for who he is as the projection is peeled off of him. It can’t be a neat process where one step is completed before the other can begin. it will be a mix of both happening.
“I am not sure if my feeling that N doesn’t understand me outside of my cage is me projecting F into him or if it is what is really happening, or both!”- do you understand yourself outside of your cage, do you have a clear image/ understanding of who you are outside the cage?
I mean, if you haven’t fully lived outside the cage yet (beyond doing art, acting in a play, etc.) then you only have a feeling/ an impression, here and there, of what it would feel like, look like, sound like…?
“At this moment in time, I would like to focus on battle one, as we have been doing. I want to heal my relationship with hatchling, gain her trust, even if that means losing N. I just really want to be clear on what hatchling needs before I make that drastic decision though because he means a lot to Seaturtle“- reads like a sensible plan!
“Have you read the book the Untethered Soul?“- I heard of the book but didn’t read it.
“When you phrase it this way, that hatchling is operating in me as an observer“-
– I wasn’t clear when I wrote: “becoming aware of hatchling and how she operates within you as an observer, observing her from some distance“: I didn’t mean that hatchling should operate in you as an observer. I meant the other way around. Back to the example of the child throwing a temper tantrum in the supermarket, if there is a parent around observing the child, then the parent can make sensible decisions for the child. But if the child is there all by herself (akin to an adult who is completely identified with her inner-child, no distance/ separation between the two), the child will not make sensible choices for herself.
“would it be correct to say that both hatchling and Seaturtle observe each other then and also both act?“- I am sorry about not being clear in the sentence I wrote because it takes away from correct understanding. It is not hatchling’s job to observe Seaturtle any more than it is a real-life child’s job to observe and understand and take care of a parent. It is Seaturtle’s job to observe and understand hatchling.
“Are drug addicts/alcoholics run by their inner child?“- initially, yes. But after addiction develops, they are run by the addiction itself.
“Sometimes after what has felt like a long day I crave a couple glasses of wine, I wonder if giving in to this want is in response to hatchling having a sort of tantrum? Or even actual food/ice cream cravings, are all non essential cravings hatchling?“-hatchling needs to feel better and food, ice cream and wine (not necessarily at the same time, lol) makes her feel better, this is why she wants those things. It is Seaturtle’s job (much like it’d be a responsible parent’s job) to decide how much of these things to allow hatchling to have at any one time.
“Is proper self care the answer to unhealthy cravings in general?“- responsible supervision and parenting of hatchling by Seaturtle is an essential part of self-care. Seaturtle needs to not be too strict with hatchling. Better give hatchling some ice- cream twice a week, let’s say, instead of.. never. The latter will create cravings.
“and maybe even addiction?”- treating addiction is complex.
“Why does hatchling make herself known outside of the home, how is she more known outside of the right context (home)?”- hatchling needs to be free to be herself (to be known to herself and to others) in every context, every day. She gets to be herself when drawing, painting and acting in a play, but she needs more opportunities to be her true self.. opportunities to discover who she is (to become known to herself).
“Is the positive attention that she/I need personal to hatchling? Or is it just typical self care like spa days, keeping your home and body clean in general?“- it is both, personal positive attention and general self-care. If indeed, hatchling’s experience with her father is as significant to her as I believe it is, then the personal attention she needs is to be heard, to be able to tell her story as it truly is.
“I am trying to imagine as if she were a child out of my body, how to make her feel cared for and to trust me. I want to be there for myself. I want to be here for me“- you’d need to be there not for your father (still trying to please him, still seeing him more positively than he is), but be there for hatchling and listen to what she is trying to tell you about this very important person (her father) and relationship in her life.
“Yes they (F and N) are similar in the way of being money driven in their careers. Whereas I am taking a different route, I am trying to follow what I love and I am narrowing in on it“-
– it may be that you are compensating your father for having a different daughter (different from F) by giving your father a similar future son-in-law (similar to your father). It may be that you are giving yourself the freedom to be different from your father because of this exchange.
“Saturday morning N and I went to breakfast. We had a nice night together after my play, and I love going out to breakfast in the morning… I asked him, ‘through all the parts of living together… why did you decide to stay with me?‘ and he said ‘Because we always came to a compromise, you listened to my perspective and understood in the end, you are really good at that.’.. my following thoughts:… Do I want this relationship if he only loves me because I am fun, pretty, and above average at communicating?. These thoughts are not new, but it was unpleasant to feel them when we are having a good morning”-
– my understanding: hatchling has been trying so hard to gain her father’s approval by behaving in ways that would gain his approval, ways that didn’t feel true to her, or didn’t yet feel true to her (hatchling needed time and opportunities to become her true, genuine self). Whenever she succeeded in getting F’s (temporary, conditional) approval, she said to herself something like: he didn’t approve of the true me, he approved of the fake me. The result: even when you received his approval at any one time, you never received approval for who you truly were/ who you were yet to be.
“my in-box version. I describe this as my behaviors that made my dad happy, when I was (trying to be) money driven, athletic outdoors, sporty, a left-brained thinker, believing that feelings are mostly not real, working hard, no breaks!“-
– hatchling didn’t have the opportunity to discover, over time, if she is money driven or not. She didn’t feel safe to discover, to develop, to become herself. There was a more urgent need: to get F’s approval, so.. without knowing who she is, without becoming through experience who she genuinely is/ would be, she took on behaviors that were not (and could not have been) authentic to her.
“in general, the box required me to live in a more masculine energy, and that is not who I am“- living in the box/ cage is all about trying to get F’s approval, and masculine energy is what seemed to get his (temporary, conditional) approval.
“Now here are examples of him (N) encouraging my in-the-box version (aka what my dad would also say): -M asked me if I wanted to join an indoor soccer team with her and I told N and he said ‘you should do that!’ in an excited tone… I am having a hard time coming up with specifics, by I feel he supports me in the box..”- in all your examples, I see nothing that suggests that N supports you living in a cage, or of placing your femininity in a cage. So far, seems to me that this part is all an inaccurate projection of F into N.
“This morning I feel not well in my head… I smoked a vape for the first time a couple weeks ago after drinking for fun with friends, the combination was so relaxing I craved it again about 4 times since, twice now I have been alone. I don’t feel good after I feel dry and my throat hurts, I don’t want to be addicted to this drug so I limit it to when I drink wine“-
– I suggested earlier to allow hatchling some ice cream twice a week or so, so that she doesn’t crave ice cream. I am not extending this suggestion to vaping. Inhaling a dangerous substance by choice is not ice cream. Better prevent a nicotine addiction by never vaping again. It’s okay to limit wine but it’s.. very unwise to limit vaping: don’t vape/ smoke at all.
“I sell art in a gallery and it was first fun, now I feel it is mundane and boring“- I want to make a point here in regard to being authentic: being authentic does not mean always or even often feeling excited. Being authentic, living an authentic life includes doing what is beneficial to do when it’s boring to do. Being authentically bored.. is part of being authentic.
“I began reading my inner child book I recently started… But the book took me down a dark path… my body literally had a millisecond of a seizure… my body just fully twitched. I finished the chapter, with a feeling like I am not in control of this terror I feel inside… I feel like hatchling is terrified”- put the book away and don’t read from it anymore. This book, of the self-help genre, I imagine (didn’t read it) is not helpful to you. It overwhelmed hatchling… She needs small pieces of information, a bit at a time.. not a whole book thrown at her.
Whenever you read my posts, if you feel distressed, take a break, don’t keep going.
“I do not feel good this morning, but I can’t call out of work again. Maybe my cycling class will help me sleep tonight. I hope it is a low maintenance day at work. My vibrations feel low and threatened”- when you have a chance, after work.. or tomorrow, whenever it is convenient for you, let me know how your day go, will you?
anitaNovember 14, 2023 at 7:16 pm #425040
I am going to respond to your reply tomorrow, for now I just wanted to give a journal entry update.
I don’t feel much better to be honest. I stuck through work all day, I went to the cycling class to attempt to gain a win. I definitely feel like hatchling is still rattled. It could be mixing with the fact I am on day 4 of my menstrual cycle?… not sure but I feel a little depressed. I am scared I won’t be able to sleep again and tomorrow will be worse. I tried to tire myself out to day though and I haven’t been able to sleep past 5 hours the past two nights so maybe tonight I will make up for it, I hope!
I feel pessimistic about my relationship with N again, and I feel confused with my back and forth feelings towards the relationship. But I am still scared to leave it because of the good and because I don’t know how much “bad” is even objectively real. It is weird tho, although I feel pessimistic, I also wish he was with me because I really feel like I need a hug, someone to sleep by me. But then is that Seaturtle being weak for hatchling? I want to be there for hatchling but I feel weak today. Today I had the thought while driving that I feel like I know myself less than I did before, but I want to see myself going the opposite direction and am struggling to see the light at the end of the tunnel. A bit overwhelmed still but hoping for a good sleep. I will talk to you again tomorrow,
Seaturtle and hatchling (perhaps separating the two is making me feel overwhelmed I have this weird desire right now to just bring them back as one, but I don’t want to lose progress)November 14, 2023 at 7:39 pm #425041
Your mood probably has a lot to do with sleeping too little as a result of the nicotine and wine you consumed yesterday, and your menstrual cycle is part of it because of the hormones released.. and the reading from the book overwhelmed you.. A combination of things. I think that you should have some calming tea if you have that, or warm milk.. a hot bath and relax, calming music maybe.. Try to not think about any of what troubles you.. will you?
anitaNovember 15, 2023 at 9:23 am #425052
Yes I will 🙂 I slept more last night, tiring myself out and sweating out the toxins of the vape. I smoked it on Sunday the 12th, it is crazy if that was still affecting me yesterday! You are right I shouldn’t entertain that road. I feel better this morning than yesterday already, but I think I really overwhelmed myself. For that reason I am actually going to take the time to focus on giving myself a rest of being introspective today and just focus on my present feelings and thoughts, so I will respond to your latest message tomorrow morning. Thank you for being there for me,
SeaturtleNovember 15, 2023 at 10:03 am #425054
I like everything you wrote today in your short post. You are welcome, thank you, and please take a day off (or more, take as much time as you need) from introspection. It’ll be a well-deserved time off from the excellent introspection you are capable of!
anitaNovember 16, 2023 at 12:10 pm #425084
I am sorry I did not make it to my computer this morning, my boss is in town today and I was not able to sit at my computer this morning like usual. My mom is coming to town tomorrow morning, I will spend the weekend with her and my last weekend of acting in the play! This weekend I am not sure how much I will be online, if anything I may journal about how it is going with my mom, but I may not get to a response to your last reply till monday. I hope this sounds good to you, I look forward to sharing about my moms visit.
SeaturtleNovember 16, 2023 at 8:24 pm #425090
It sounds good to me, it does!
anitaNovember 17, 2023 at 7:03 am #425098
I wanted to add to my last night’s short message: I wish you a good last weekend of acting in the Shakespearean play you are part of, and a good Friday-Sunday with your mom. Keep it light on the relationship front with B (shouldn’t be difficult since you’d be so busy), and calm yourself whenever you feel too stressed, so that you don’t overreact to people and situations.
If you find yourself stressed or too intense in regard to your mother this weekend, you are very welcome to take time-out from her (press Pause on the conversation/ excuse yourself and go to the computer), and as you suggested: journal about it here, on your thread. I will be glad to read and reply as soon as I am able.