Dear Anita,

“for a little girl, a young child (hatchling), a scenario where a parent abandons her for another child (a prettier child, a smarter child, etc.) means death” … “Fast forward, projecting your father into your boyfriend, you fear being abandoned by him for another young woman.. one who is more to his (N’s) standards, and the fear feels like the fear of death.”

I think back to my childhood, I am the oldest of four and I always did everything I could for my dads approval, I dedicated myself to a sport, which I did have fun with, but I also never thought there was another option, it just never occurred to me, it was to just keep getting better and I found satisfaction in the improvement I saw in myself. I did take a-lot from it, hard work does get you results, I did intense workouts every day that he would ask me about at every dinner. Many days I of course wanted to skip a workout and didn’t but I didn’t because I wanted to be able to say yes when he asked me at dinner. I eventually did get in very good shape, which helped me feel more confident in my sport. He complimented my physic, I will never forget him commenting how fit I looked in the “love-handle” area while at the beach in Hawaii, I remember feeling odd about it but also satisfied that he was proud. This to say, I did “follow the rules” of his conditional support, in fact I feel the sister I had a bad relationship for a while with, resented me because I was setting a lofty expectation that she felt short of. I was the one chose over her… so it is interesting to me that I still fear not being “the chosen one.” It is almost like since I WAS, now I can’t not be.. that feeling of “death” is so real, it truly is that intense. Is the solution here also emotion regulation skills?

“I can’t think of a better partner for you.”

This is very sweet, thank you 🙂

“Hatchling grew up with this instinctual fear being triggered. She is still afraid of being completely abandoned.” … “Objectively, N ending the game when he did, and the way he did, was not abusive or even rude, in my estimation. Subjectively, it felt terrible to hatchling because she is so very sensitive to any event that, to her,  has a taste of abandonment, no matter how vague, weak, or minor.. or non-existent the taste is in objective terms.” … “For hatchling, any taste of abandonment from someone she needs emotionally (N), is a clear-and-present danger, strong and major.”

Making note of this.

“– N can’t be nice enough to undo what your uncles did to hatchling, nor can he be nice enough to change the conditional “love” of your father, and turn it into an unconditional love. Your healing may require quality professional therapy.”

My first and only therapist that I have had was quality but her way of doing things was very hands off, she was awesome and her method worked for that time of my life where I was being awakened, but now I would like more intense therapy where someone can actually give me the type of insight that you do. Rather than just sort of having someone who just listens, with very light amount insight/advice. What type of therapy would you recommend?

““The fact the disconnect is on his end I feel alleviated of blame, but then I still feel the concern for its end, because it is in his control and that feels unstable to me“- I am not sure I understand this part, but I’ll say this: N is not Perfect, but reads to me that he is..  close enough to it (and nobody is perfect). He makes mistakes and he will make mistakes in the future.“

– By this I meant, N is not aware that being at his parents house caused him to feel the same as when he was a child. He is not aware, that going on that little hike, on that torn up trail where I felt disconnected from him, has to do with something going on inside of him.      Before I saw your comment:

(““Perhaps I can still ask him even though the feelings are not fresh on his mind?“- you asked this in regard to the unpleasant walk in nature when taking a break from being in the distressing company of his parents. I suggest that you ask him this if and when he brings up the topic of his parents.”)

I actually asked him this morning, how he has felt since the trip or reflected on how he felt back at his parents, and he just said “I enjoyed it and didn’t feel badly there this time..” As I am really putting effort into how I feel and why, I have this feeling like he is not on that same path and I have a desire for him to be on it too. I want him to be aware of his feelings on that torn up path, and I want him to be aware that he disconnected from me there. I know he is amazing and not perfect, so I don’t want to have unrealistic expectations, but I can’t help but crave the same self awareness.

My rational self, outside of the feeling, can see that he didn’t do anything wrong in the game situation. When you said “N can’t be nice enough to undo what your uncles did to hatchling” I can see how this can be true, but unfortunately I don’t think my feelings follow my rationale here. When I read this there is a part of me that understands and a part of me, I am assuming hatchling, who still believes he can be nice enough to heal me … I don’t necessarily believe it, but I feel it, if that makes sense. It is an interesting feeling to feel split internally here.

“(2) Experiencing these feelings is human and there will always be feelings that are uncomfortable to feel, but you can lower the intensity of these feelings via emotion regulation skills, which means to indeed lower their volume.”

This is so interesting because it goes along with my internally split feelings, like I mentioned just before. It’s like when I am in the emotion I can see it overpowering me, I can’t escape it cause I don’t yet have the tools, but I find myself searching for tools when I am in the emotion. I realize there is a lack of emotional regulation skills while in it and it can be a very paralyzing place to be.

“hatchling’s trauma/ fear of abandonment (which took hold way before you ever met N), and therefore, it is not about N’s actions.”

I am circling back to this, you mentioned much earlier in your last post, but it stuck with me. When you used the analogy of a fawn and her mother and abandonment = death, it got me wondering where exactly this fear of abandonment is from. These are my two hypotheses:

My dad did was not really ever emotionally there. But as far as physical abandonment, he did move out, and into a hotel after my moms final time cheating on him. I of course understood because I knew why he was leaving and I actually agreed with it, I would have done the same. So I don’t think I felt abandoned, but maybe I felt it was unfair I was left with her and he didn’t take me. Once he got a house, about 6 months later I decided to move in with him.

My mom was emotionally in and out, she had a drinking problem, I found out later. She always had a glass of wine in her hand, it never made her aggressive with us, infact she was perhaps too clingy to us with it, she would get extra affectionate. But her wine self is almost like an inauthentic affection feeling .. Then when I moved out with my dad, I left her, so she didn’t abandon me? In fact she reached out to me all the time but I did not respond to her for about a complete year. After a year I ended up spending alot of time with her cause I missed her, then the time with both my parents started to sway back and forth, depending on where I felt more free. I often felt free-er with my mom, but safer with my dad.

“hatchling needs you to be gentle with her. Every one of her feelings carries a message with it. It is only after you thoroughly heard each message, that each feeling- having served its purpose- will.. no longer be there to distress you.”

I assume I will just know when this message is received. I do wonder though, are the messages sort of like realizations of the true reason hatchling is afraid, mixed with some awareness as to why it is a fear that is not helpful .. ? This is an abstract thought that, if true, I have felt before, but can’t pin my finger on what scenario exactly I have felt this before.

Always with Love

Seaturtle & hatchling

Dear Anita,

I apologize for my later response, my trip to see my partners family was consuming in many ways and I am just now reading this response. The following day him and I stayed at an aribnb together for a friends wedding (the main reason we went on the trip) and I just wanted to do my best to be present and not make the drive about me, which I inevitably would have done if I saw a response from you, I would have needed to express it to him, but I did not want to overwhelm him with my feelings.

I am now reading your response.

Wow your view of what happened is very perceptive and I appreciate it so much. I now wish I had read it before so I could have better seen the hurt n. I completely blamed myself for feeling disconnected. I thought perhaps his parents relationship scared me and made me hyper aware of any sort of disconnect on his end, which it probably did which exacerbated my feelings when he disconnected from me. When I feel disconnected from him I tend to think something is either wrong with me or the relationship, but if the disconnect is happening from his end, how to I detect and remedy this?

This explains why when we left to go to our airbnb, after a bit of disconnect remaining between us on the drive over, as soon as we got to the cabin, and I mean AS SOON AS we got there, I felt more connected to him than ever. We had such a bonding moment where I believe we both felt very safe. We cuddled on the couch, then I gave him a haircut for the wedding and we got ready together. We again were connected the next morning and through our whole drive home, even at his parents house, but then after dinner had another disconnect (I will share in the paragraph after next)

There was however another issue I had, it wasn’t between US it was, I am pretty sure, between seaturtle and hatchling.. While we were getting ready for the wedding, I tried on the dresses I brought. I couldn’t afford a new one and my only option were a couple in my closet I hadn’t worn before or in a long time. I tried on all three and did not feel confident. I thought about how I would be compared with the other women there .. I am not proud of this and new it was not a helpful thought but I felt it very deeply. I then also forgot my regular makeup essentials. After this final straw I broke down into tears and thought I couldn’t go. I had thoughts like “N will be attracted to another girl and I won’t compare,” “His friends won’t think I am good enough looking for him.” I should mention, this was a wedding for one of his highschool friends and were all going to be people from his past I had never met. I was actually terrified on the inside to run into an ex girlfriend of his or someone he had a crush on. My head spun with thoughts of comparison with those girls as well and for some reason, hatchling thought she would literally just die if there was a scenario where he had an ex/crush there that I thought was prettier than me.. I feel very vulnerable sharing this because I am not proud of my insecurities, I am not sure why they occur either. I wish I had my head high enough to not be bothered by such superficial little things. In the end, N was really there for me and helped me through the panic attack and I felt strong enough to finish getting ready and make it work. Once I arrived at the wedding I instantly felt safer as I met his friends and did not feel less than them or judged negatively for the way I looked and behaved. I enjoyed the rest of the wedding. However, a voice remains in my head even now, “If you WERE faced with someone who made you feel inferior physically or behaviorally, you would have been crushed with anxiety.” …

The next day our drive home was lovely and we stopped for breakfast and had some very engaging conversation and I learned some new things about N. I love how he pays attention to world affairs and has such a level head about what is happening around him. It makes me feel safe. It also intrigues me because I do want to know about those things too and look forward to more of those conversations. Once we got back to his parents house I still felt connected to him up until after dinner and we started playing a board game with his mom, it was late and N did say later he was tired and trying to end the game already, but this is what happened: We were playing a game where we all have to sort of build something and the person that does the best in many ways wins, however you can’t win if you don’t at least complete what you build. I wasn’t very good at it, but his mom said that she goes easy on people who haven’t played and typically will at least give everyone the time to complete their building. It was the end of the game and N’s mom was about to win but she put off winning so that I, the last one to finish, could complete my building. But then N comes in and finishes his, ending the game, leaving me unfinished. When I looked at him he had a straight face with a “sucks to suck” attitude. I asked him to not do that so I could finish but he continued to do so with no sort of playful smile or anything. This hurt me deeply .. I am not saying these are rational feelings, infact I know they aren’t but in that moment I felt he didn’t love me, didn’t see me, didn’t care about me or my feelings, I felt like he completely abandoned me. I held back tears. He then left the table to go outside to probably smoke (weed) with his dad and I was left at the table sad and alone with his mom just holding back all my feelings. That night he came to tuck me into bed and I was too afraid to start the conversation about my pain, I was too afraid of him denying my feelings and I knew how badly that would hurt me so I ignored the feelings and we snuggled before he went to his bed downstairs.

Next day we drive to the airport. My feelings about the night before caught me by surprise again while we were waiting to board the plane. A family next to us were playing a game, maybe that is what reminded me Im not exactly sure. Anyways I can’t hold back this time so I tell N how I felt about the way the game ended. He said that my feelings were not warranted for the actions that he did. He said what he did should not lead to my reaction. I told him he didn’t understand my trauma of feeling betrayed by a teammate (life teammate, we were not on a team in the game). He said he felt hurt that I didn’t know what it felt like to be on opposite teams of a friend you have to play against, as he experienced that a lot in football and knew it wasn’t easy. I told him there should be a better way to play games together, that he should be able to be kind to me while playing with me and that there should be guidelines between us. I told him we should never be the one to screw the other person over. It is ok if you/your team wins but there is a kinder/ more loving way to do it, I wanted him to let me at least finish building as he would have still one, but I felt what he did was rude. to this he responded with laughter like I was completely rediculous for calling him rude about a game. He said “it’s just a game” MULTIPLE times, but this only made me feel invalidated cause obviously I was expressing feelings that went beyond a game. To which he responded “so then it sounds like we just can’t play games together because you can’t be a good sport.” I literally wanted to strangle him when he said this, my body was so uncomfortable I felt like I could burst with energy and run a 5k. We did resolve this conversation, I think (although as I write this it still upsets me ..). When I told him that having all those uncles growing up, like 6 older brothers I was bullied in games, they would gang up on me and cheat so that I always lost, if I was about to win they would cheat, sometimes they were just better and won without cheating but again I was like 8 and they were 13-20 years old making an 8 year old feel slow and stupid. My siblings and I literally can’t play games with my dad anymore without witnesses, because he would change rules to fit him and have these rational reasons as to why all his rules made sense. He NEVER let us win. We would be crying at the games and my mom would actually call him a bully to which he just said we needed to learn… I tried to express to N that I was bullied in games growing up but even those words coming out of my mouth made me feel stupid like “can I really not handle a game?” anyways when I told N I felt unloved, abandoned and like he was like one of my uncles who teamed up on me while I was abandoned and left alone to fight an army, he comforted me. N told me that he was always on my side and that he loved me, this melted me into tears… It is all I needed to hear to feel safe again. But there is still a part of me, I realized as I wrote this, that just wants him to be “nicer” to just ME, his life teammate, when it comes to games. and I think we still disagree here and I am scared to revisit it and be told he won’t do it or it’s just on me to be less sensitive.

Anita, this response came flowing through me at my computer. I feel more in tuned with my feelings than ever before and I have a fear you will tire of this forum, but I want you to know it is so helpful to me and I really appreciate you. I look forward to your response, hopefully ❤️

With love,

Seaturtle & hatchling

Hi anita!

Thank you for your support and congratulations 🙂 I am excited too!

“I truly thought they were solved but maybe I was just ignoring hatchling and the real solution is to actually unlearn my body’s learned response to love and learn to see how others do care about me? I often feel my friends don’t care about me and do things without considering me .. and this is all being directed at N! what do you think about this?“- I am not clear about what you are asking here. Can you rephrase it clearly?

-I read something on a different forum platform (Reddit), someone started a topic about not being able to receive love from her boyfriend, to help sort the two people in the discussion I will call the girl “Red” and the boy “Blue”.

I am summarizing the parts of Red’s post that really resonated with me:  Red says “I was treated pretty badly throughout my school years and bullied in high school. I find myself having pretty low sense of self worth and I feel unlovable sometimes.” Red says “I don’t know how to accept his compliments; I say thank you, but on the inside I feel he is lying .. but I know rationally that isn’t true. I feel guilty and I feel like I need to pay him back in some way. I know people do nice things and I should just let them but I feel so guilt because I feel like I don’t deserve it.”  “These patterns kind of spill over into my platonic relationships as well. I find myself wanting to love others, but never wanting to be loved. I love spoiling my friends with small gifts and favors .. I feel like I can’t depend on people how they depend on me.” “People say I am not a bad person, but I can’t help but feel like I am a bad person on the inside and I just masquerade as a good friend, and eventually someone is going to rip off this mask that I have and discover the truth.”

Red then receives a response that I found very helpful, Blue (the responder) was bullied as well and says ever since “I was playing a game of emotional catchup with self worth because everyone hated me.” For me, Seaturtle, it is not hate, instead it is people thinking I am awkward or too quiet, weird. Blue continues “So I thought I was just prone to receiving hatred because of who I was. I tried to get people to like me. It worked, but I kept them at an arms distance for sure and I never got better. I had to start letting people get closer and get to know me and not the smiley cardboard cutout of me. Many years later, I began to realize that I was not unlovable, it was that those kids couldn’t love others properly.” Blue continues “Understand that the guilt, anxieties of being a bad person, and secret lying are all a response to stressors and not the same as reality. It’s just your brain trying to defend you from people loving you.” “your brain currently thinks love and kindness is danger. Like whenever someone shows you love and you get that response of “wtf why are you doing this? I don’t deserve this” that’s a response to what your mind perceives as danger. Another tip is to remind yourself that when you’re receiving love, you’re not gonna die. It’ll retrain your brain and over time it’ll put love in the not danger category and you’ll get different reactions.”

-This point hit me hard, when I said “my body’s learned response to love” this is where I got that idea. when I said “the real solution is to actually unlearn my body’s learned response to love and learn to see how others do care about me?” I was referring to this idea of training my brain to put receiving love into a non-danger category.

-When Red talks about ripping off a mask I feel the same way. In new social situations I feel like I have this false sense of confidence and someone will see beyond the mask and see how insecure/awkward/odd I am and that I am faking the confidence to fit in. I fear that if I allow people closer than an arms distance, they will see behind my mask and be disgusted and reject me.

-My question is this, Is my brain defending me from love? Because if I am not able to see/receive love from others then I will be so thirsty for it that I demand it from my love partner.

-I hope this clarified what I am getting at, as opposed to making it more confusing adding Red and Blue…

“- part of maturing is taming (effectively and kindly parenting) the inner child, so to not act impulsively when thoughtful action is the right thing to do, etc.. It’s the over-taming/ the imprisoning of the inner-child that is the problem.”

This is another question that I thought of last night, the difference between taming and over-taming hatchling. I suppose I will have to get to know hatchling more and what makes her feel ignored versus relaxed/tame?

I wonder what hatchling is like when tame, it feels like she has been in a state of irritation this whole year and over-tamed before that.

Thank you again Anita 💜

Seaturtles

Hi Helcat,

Please don’t feel pressure to rush back to this forum, your immediate needs are much more important. I am sorry for what you are going through and send you support and strength! I also send love and strength to your baby ❤️

In response to your message:

It is episode 9 of season 1 of Crazy ex-girlfriend, I am fairly certain he was making fun of her weight. It really bothered me because she is not even what I would call “over-weight.” I could see myself having her body type once I have children, if I do. He does not give me a lot of physical compliments already, so I think I am more sensitive for that reason. I know he is attracted to me through other cues and I also believe I am right now as well, I just think about the future and him wanting a younger fitter woman. After all after the divorce my dad started dating a woman much fitter than my mom in every way as well as 10 years younger, with some plastic surgery, together they are very superficial appearance-wise. Being thin is praised in my family, the opposite is thought of as “needing help,” you will suddenly get comments on your body and nutrition and workout recommendations. I am going to talk to my partner about this this evening when I see him and get back to you further on his meaning of Meatball lol.

Seaturtle

Dear Helcat,

“I had to practice recalling who he was outside of disagreements and comparing this truth of what I knew about my partner being loving against the almost dark thoughts I experienced during a trigger.”

This is Helpful thank you.

I am not sure if this is a trigger response or what exactly it is but sometimes his jokes make me feel very insecure. We were watching a show this weekend, its a comedy “crazy ex girlfriend,” anyways if you’ve seen it that would be funny. Anyways there’s a scene where this girl is trying to get this guys attention and starts dancing on a stripper pole, it was actually a good dance she did and with confidence, and my boyfriend goes “look at that meatball,” the show is a comedy but still, coming from him made me insecure about my own body. (I am not overweight but I am not skinny) Growing up my family always put a heavy emphasis on being in shape, I thought I overcame this insecurity that I was not a gym model, but it has been resurfacing lately and I got mad at my partner for his comment to which he thought was ridiculous and just a joke. It just made me feel like if I ever looked like her he wouldn’t be attracted to me anymore. There was a very thin yoga instructor in the scene as well I felt he was staring at and it tortures me inside a bit. I truly wish I was more secure than this, feel like I should be and feel embarrassed I don’t have the confidence to overlook it. Should I start another forum about this? I am not sure if this falls under what you relate with..

Dear Anita,

Thank you for explaining this concept of hatchling to me, I feel it.

“The adult part of you thinks that it is something that happened, but for Hatch, it is still happening.”

Is Hatch ever able to have a sense of time, past versus present? Is the goal to raise hatchling into an adult as to be in one mind? Or are we meant to have these two parts of us, and are there more than hatchling and adult?

“When you take Hatch with you to meet your father (recently for that hour visit during his golf tournament), she doesn’t want to go because she’s scared of him and/ or she is angry with him, but you take her anyway, and you tell her to be nice and that there is nothing to worry about. So, she goes with you quietly, holding her feelings in, and makes it possible for you to have a nice visit with him.”

Wow this makes me feel terrible that I did this to her. Does this make hatch angry? Is there a way to willingly bring her to such family events I don’t want to miss and will inevitably interact with my dad? This visual makes me want to care for her so badly.

“The visit is over, you take Hatch home and- no longer instructed to be nice and hold her feelings in- she let’s them out, aka she gets triggered in the company of your boyfriend and other people. The adult part of you thinks that her fear and/ or anger and other distress is about your boyfriend and the other people, but Hatch’s fear and anger, her distress, is about your father.”

So if it is hatch that cannot distinguish where to direct her anger, Adult can help her?

Sending love,

Seaturtle

Dear Anita,

“For as long as Hatch has significant unresolved issues in regard to her father, she will keep seeing him in N (and in other people).”

“– I think it’s Hatch who is running away, running away from her father who is not genuinely caring or kind, a man who will not do what needs to be done for his daughter’s best interest.”

Both of these made me start to feel emotional. I haven’t heard the term “Hatch” before, but the sense of it feels real. I do feel like I am split in two. I can see her, “hatch” this scared version of myself and then I can see ME who is confident and loving and regrets what hatch sees/feels/says.

“(October 10)- your relationship history fits my understanding that Hatch keeps seeing her father in men and.. she keeps running away, or wanting to run away (from her father).”

Yes! I was doing this consciously. That is why when I started to feel some of my father in N, I was disappointed in myself, I thought he was different. I do not like men who reflect my father. N has admitted to understanding my dad, his desire to feel respected, and their drive to be financially free and in power of their own destiny. I like that they get along it makes me feel safe in a way, but I don’t want them to be too similar, which I don’t think they are “too”, but they both have that teflon.

““He accepts my flaws and loves me in spite, which touches me so deeply because I didn’t receive unconditional love from my father“- it doesn’t touch Hatch deeply enough .. because of these unresolved issues I keep mentioning, seeing her father in N.“

Exactly. I have to convince Hatch with words but she doesn’t feel it like I do and logically feel I should. I think Hatch often is more present when we are on dates… because that regret of what Hatch sees/feels/says, as mentioned earlier, happens after N leaves. I wonder why I didn’t enjoy that perfect date more? I don’t think it is all Hatch, and hopefully getting less and less and I try to overcome this association between N and my Father…

“-Hatch- for whom there is no distinction between past and present, is still living in her father’s house, still distressed, still wanting to run away.”

Wow, this spoke deeply to me. Could this be why I feel so exhausted all the time? I think since moving out I am coming out of this exhaustion, slowly, but I just don’t have as much energy as I want to or see others have. I don’t have enough to commit to my dreams, I end up taking so many breaks or just wanting to give up cause I am too tired, it make me feel lazy and weak.

” if what he meant instead was to say that in the here-and-now experience, you felt angry at him and responded to your anger by withholding affection from him, similarly to what his mother did.”

I agree with your assessment of his use of the word “excuse” not being abusive, I have felt it more of a present feeling of his about my current response to him. It just makes Hatch angry/insecure. But recently I have been able to see this behavior as if out of body and it helps to distance myself from the anxiety.

“To prevent this (withholding affection) from happening, it will take you SEEING Hatch, and then understanding that N is not your father, and redirecting your anger to whom it belongs.”

Are there affirmations that can help me to remind myself he is not my father? When triggered I still believe Hatch sometimes and simultaneously want to argue it, like my adult-self/ME is burried so deep I can barely hear her anymore but I am trying. “redirecting your anger to whom it belongs” -visualizing my father and directing anger to him? in the end I want to be able to get rid of that anger all together, rather than just redirect it. Is redirecting it first then I will need to resolve that with him? or will it always be there, like the law of energy that it can never truly be rid of only moved?

“(3) There is only one person who can make Hatch feel seen, and it is not N. It has to be you, the adult part of you.”

This is freeing in a sense for sure. however there are people in my life who do make me feel seen, why is this? My mom, sisters and two close friends (sometimes random acquaintances) make me feel seen when I cannot see myself, is it wrong to want this from  a partner? Or is there a reason that I don’t feel seen by him as I do others?

“Once seeing how Hatch really feels, it will take doing what’s right for her. If what’s right for her is to no longer hope that her father will finally see her, and then to never talk or visit him.. then don’t (have no contact with him).”

I will need to think about this and let it marinate. My heart can’t imagine not having contact, but I can’t tell if that’s cause I feel bad for him or myself. It gives me a big sense of loneliness to avoid him. What are some techniques to hear hatch?

“Hatch needs to be seen, and for her feelings, needs and wants to be validated and respected.. by you.”

Do you know of techniques, a book, or mediation practice that can enter me into a space to communicate with myself in this way? Adult–>Hatch.

“ask Hatch: who is the bad man she keeps wanting to run away from? If she feels your commitment to SEE her and then, to do what’s right for her.. she will tell you.”

I hope and look forward to this interaction.

Thank you so much Anita, you are helping me understand myself and I feel so supported by you.

Sending Love and appreciation,

Seaturtle

Anita,

Hahaha, thank you! I will enjoy, I hope you do as well!

Seaturtle