Home→Forums→Relationships→Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships
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October 19, 2023 at 3:19 pm #423563seaturtleParticipant
Dear Anita,
“– he may be taking on the role of a therapist with you, as he has dome with his father (based on his words in regard t his father), but he is a bad “therapist” if he refers to your sincere reasoning as excuses. Can you give me 1-2 examples of what you said that he referred to as an excuses? “
Yes, a therapist in a way of I am very open with him and he listens, but he doesn’t give advice really, he’s just a listening ear that may make him feel dumped on when I truly am trying to explain who I am to him. For example, in the tickling scenario I described before that triggered me from being tickled and pinched by older brothers (uncles close in age). It caused me to back away from cuddling as we watched a tv show, and this “withholding of affection” affected him and he expressed that he did not like that, to which I apologized for, then explained why I pulled away and he thought it was an excuse and negated the apology.
There are other examples that aren’t surfacing my memory right now, but the essence of them is that my trigger response hurts him, and I explain why it happened and sometimes he has empathy for me and is understanding, but other times says they are excuses for my behavior. My behavior is withdrawing, this is not easy for me to say but he has called my trigger responses emotionally abusive to him, because if he doesn’t say the right thing to ease my mind I am cold and blame him. When he told me this it made me take a hard look at myself and definitely made me want to understand why my responses were so intense. This was about 4 months ago, I was also under the influence of alcohol, which I learned from that situation I cannot have if triggered because it exaggerates my coldness, blaming and honestly can bring this sassiness out that he does not like. Basically I would feel and tell him exactly what he could have done to prevent my pain (trigger), at the time I didn’t yet realize where this pain was coming from at all, and I genuinely thought it was his fault. We have talked alot about this and this is also why I wanted to move out so I would stop taking it out on him. It is harder for me to deal with when the same thing happens again, like I tell him something that bothers me like him being late or not communicating with me, but he will continue to obliviously do it and I would get upset with him and ask why he continues to do it and he just didn’t think what he did deserved that response.
“– the dissociated/ removed-from-awareness feelings in regard to your father need to be brought back to awareness, to one extent or another, so to undo the grasp these feelings have on your boyfriend, so to speak.”
Does this involve confronting my father? I still feel those feelings towards my dad sometimes, but only when I re-play what has happened, would journaling (more) about my experiences with my dad help to release them? Often I feel when I talk or think about them it brings me down, but maybe it is helping, because I do still have strong feelings there under the surface if I tap into them.
“Fast forward in the relationship.. it’s still not like he knows who he was- and still is- late for.”
I could see this being true. Sometimes he reminds me of my dad in the way that it will feel like he does know sometimes, but then other times there’s like a wall and he doesn’t actually know anymore. This is when I feel unseen and I get this weird stranger alert in my brain and suddenly feel he is SO far away from me.
“Teflon mindset”
I love this, it is so accurate I have seen this in many people.
“This is the difference between the two of you: you let things in, you let them stick enough to analyze them, so to understand better.”
Yes exactly, and we don’t understand this about eachother. To me, this is what you need to do to grow and learn. I also appreciate feeling things deeply to which he does not understand the point. He accepts this about me, and tells me that he loves how much of a feeler I am, but when its a negative feeling I am lingering on to think about he gets exhausted and will want to move on so quickly. He lets go of things quite fast, and doesn’t care to think about the why, usually. I love our conversations about the “why,” but he is so focused on work and other stress that he is often unable to go there with me mentally.
“TM does not want to understand itself; any opportunity to understand (himself or you)- if it feels distressing to him- will slide off him like oil slides off Teflon.” -Yup, so true, and this is what reminds me of my dad, but N can go in and out of it, but majorly he is Teflon unfortunately and I hold hope that I can help him increase his tolerance to what he repels…
– your father didn’t see you and (not or) your boyfriend doesn’t see you, not beyond the superficial, like you suspect.
-So than am I wasting my time pursuing a romantic relationship with him?
“after me sharing my trigger response after the ticking he asked me ‘why don’t I have triggers like you do, do I have no trauma?’“- he is blaming you for having triggers, stating that he has trauma too, but he has no triggers (being that they slide off, I say), so there is something wrong (faulty, blameworthy) about you, is the message, isn’t it?
– It could be, in that moment I felt sorry for him that he wasn’t in tune enough to recognize his triggers because everyone has them, but his trigger responses, if he has any is to stay silent, so they are very hard for me to detect. Sometimes he is quiet with 0 thoughts, I think this is a male thing? It is hard to tell why he is silent and IF he is bothered.
“this IS the experience of living with a TM.. unless you are equally a TM yourself. and therefore comfortable with unfamiliarity.. having adjusted well to being UNSEEN”
-This hits me hard because OFTEN, growing up with my dad and now with N I feel this need to be more like a TF. He calls his TF behavior “stoicism.” and he does make TF behavior look more relaxing, like he often just tells me to relax, which sometimes I wonder if that is what I need to do, sometimes it is but other times I do want to talk about the why of something.
“in your shoes, hearing this, I would feel guilty about sharing with him anything that would make him feel badly.”
-It does. But since the beginning of our relationship (because, and what keeps me with him) I felt this feeling that he would be in my life for a while, his presence was soothing and he was so kind to everyone, and a hard worker with good intentions, he gives back to the community and people close to him as much as he can, and since I felt he could possibly be my person I dedicated myself to being transparent. I lived by the idea that if I am my truest and most honest self than the people that stick around are true and the ones who leave were not meant for me. I didn’t want something to come as a surprise later on and quite honestly just desperately wanted to be seen by him, and to make sure I was accepted for exactly who I was.
On your last two paragraphs.
I don’t want a TF for myself. If I was a friend to myself I would tell me that I would thrive with a person who was able to see me. But, I love this TF and he is such a close friend to me and honestly I think we help each other learn a lot about each other, hence where I am now. How do I keep this friend and find a non-TF that I so desperately wish to be seen by. Are all men this way, or do I just find them because, as they say, we date our parents… I will say N seems more aware than by dad though, he feels so sorry for my sisters and brother who he can see not being seen by my dad. Perhaps N isn’t all TF? there are moments he sure does seem to see behind peoples action. It is like I want N to be my person so badly, because I love him and he is my home and safe place right now, and he has so many good qualities, none that overcome not seeing me, but he’s just so pure and the dating world out there scares the hell out of me, so much ingenuity. Can a TF learn to me? Or will he always be alone in that disconnected world? Have I wasted all this time of my youth in this relationship? I would hate to permanently lose him.
Seaturtle
October 19, 2023 at 3:24 pm #423564seaturtleParticipantDear Helcat,
Thank you for your kind words 🙂
I hope you also saw my message on October 18, 2023 at 12:06 pm, I know it is long and if you don’t have the energy to respond I can understand, but I thought maybe you did not see it with all the many messages back and forth.
Seaturtle
October 19, 2023 at 4:19 pm #423565seaturtleParticipantAnita,
Ever since I responded a couple hours ago I can’t shake this pit in my stomach of breaking up with my partner. If he will never truly see me then I need to leave. But I can sense the pain of separating and it scares and pains me deeply. He has become by home.
October 19, 2023 at 5:27 pm #423573HelcatParticipantHi Seaturtle
Thank you for sharing. I’m sorry but I will have to get back to you tomorrow again. Lots of family drama atm. I should be fine and able to focus after sleeping though.
Love and best wishes! ❤️ 🙏
October 19, 2023 at 5:30 pm #423574HelcatParticipantOh yes, I saw it. It just takes a bit more thought and concentration to reply to those kinds of things. I don’t want to be unfocused and not give the thoughts you shared the attention they deserve.
😊
October 19, 2023 at 8:32 pm #423575anitaParticipantDear Seaturtle:
We need so much from other people, more than most can offer, A boyfriend cannot be all that you need him to be. There needs to be compromise.. so don’t rush to break up with him. You will soon make the right choice for you. It will be YOUR choice. I’ll read your whole recent posts and reply further tomorrow.
anita
October 20, 2023 at 9:22 am #423588anitaParticipantDear Seaturtle:
The example you gave: he tickled you=> it triggered your past trauma=> you backed away from cuddling=>he accused you of withholding affection from him=>you apologized to him for withholding affection from him and explained why (the past trauma)=> he told you that your explanation was an excuse, claiming that backing away from cuddling with him was something wrong that you did, an offense, something for which you were guilty, and that your explanation was your attempt to lessen the blame attaching to (a fault or offense) (online definition of the word excuse).
Questions: (1) How long after the tickling session did the two of you sit down on the couch in front of the TV and him trying to cuddle with you? (2) What happened in between the ticking and his effort to cuddle: did you make it clear to him that you were upset by the tickling, was there a conversation about it? (3) When you backed away from the cuddling, did you feel angry at him, wanting to punish him for the tickling? (4) Do you always cuddle with him, whenever he feels like cuddling, no matter how you feel.. Does he always cuddle with you no matter how he feels?
“Does this involve confronting my father?“- I don’t think so, at least not at this point.
“Would journaling (more) about my experiences with my dad help to release them? Often I feel when I talk or think about them it brings me down, but maybe it is helping, because I do still have strong feelings there under the surface if I tap into them“-Best would be to do express and process theses strong feelings in the context of quality professional psychotherapy. I don’t remember if we talked about psychotherapy, but given that your father is financially well-off, it will be very appropriate for him to pay for such.
“He lets go of things quite fast“- there is an advantage to having a TM. I would like to have more Teflon in mine!
“N can go in and out of it, but majorly he is Teflon unfortunately“- I suppose TM is a spectrum thing: everyone has it, some more than others.
“OFTEN, growing up with my dad and now with N I feel this need to be more like a TF. He calls his TF behavior stoicism.’ and he does make TF behavior look more relaxing, like he often just tells me to relax, which sometimes I wonder if that is what I need to do, sometimes it is but other times I do want to talk about the why of something“- being somewhere in the middle of the TM Spectrum is probably a good idea; to apply Teflon selectively, depending on the topic and circumstances.
“Since the beginning of our relationship (because, and what keeps me with him) I felt this feeling that he would be in my life for a while, his presence was soothing and he was so kind to everyone, and a hard worker with good intentions, he gives back to the community…“-
-and yet, you’ve been doubting the relationship and thinking a lot about breaking up with him for a long time:
“Please help me, my mind hasn’t rested in 8 months… I don’t think we are soulmates… I really have been having this entire debate in my head for a straight 6-8 months now and I don’t want to waste my time, I want to move on or commit. I don’t want to string this lovely man along, but I don’t want to make the wrong decision and make him the one that got away… I am exhausted with this decision and thought the answer would have come to me by now” (July 29)
“Have I wasted all this time of my youth in this relationship? I would hate to permanently lose him…. I can’t shake this pit in my stomach of breaking up with my partner. If he will never truly see me then I need to leave. But I can sense the pain of separating and it scares and pains me deeply. He has become by home” (Oct 19).
I was wondering earlier, before getting to the computer this morning, are you familiar with the term Relationship OCD (R-OCD) and did you ever consider that it may apply to you?
anita
October 20, 2023 at 10:30 am #423592seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
To answer your questions:
1- After the tickling I backed away for maybe 10 minutes, then I felt bad because he looked almost ashamed of what he “did”…(perhaps how his mother made him feel like a bad/ immoral kid) 2- Yes. I told him I was sorry for making him feel like he was bad or was hurting me. When I told him I was cold/held affection because I needed space after being triggered by my past, he called it an excuse, excusing my reaction. 3- Interesting yes. But I felt angry that he was not trying to come make amends. Then after about 10 min my heart softened to how he was feeling. 4- Not quite, because I like what I call “active cuddling,” where I feel his movement, touching my hair, or rubbing my back. I often feel like getting up and moving around if we are just laying there, which is what he prefers (to just lay there). Whenever I want his version of cuddling it is typically available, but I often don’t want just that unless I am tired. But this could also have to do with the fact he works soooo much, so he is often very tired and I think just has the energy to lay there. He started a painting company and has been working nonstop the past 2 months, to the point where yesterday he even told me he forgot to eat. He does not get enough sleep, he has a hard time not answer a work call on a Sunday, when we have a relax day. He has to ask me to take his phone away, or turn it off completely.
“I don’t remember if we talked about psychotherapy, but given that your father is financially well-off, it will be very appropriate for him to pay for such.”
Money is a very touchy subject with my dad. He holds it over peoples head, has high expectations in return (like my need to text him while I was at college all the time that “I appreciate you” “thank you” “I couldn’t do this without you” etc. This is my first year 100% financial independent from him so it makes me nervous to ask for anything money related. When money is involved the caring dad goes away and the one who is afraid he is being taken advantage of surfaces and it is a place of great paranoia and fear. Many people have taken advantage of him, his own dad and perhaps my mom once upon a time.
“He lets go of things quite fast“- there is an advantage to having a TM. I would like to have more Teflon in mine!
being somewhere in the middle of the TM Spectrum is probably a good idea; to apply Teflon selectively, depending on the topic and circumstances.
Do you know how a feeler can learn to gain teflon and vise versa?
-and yet, you’ve been doubting the relationship and thinking a lot about breaking up with him for a long time:
Yes, this is why my mind hasn’t rested because it is at war. You’ve now seen a glimpse into what I love about him, but when I feel unseen or that distance between us, due to the TF, I want to run to someone who does see me. The fact he doesn’t SEE me is what makes me still doubt we are soulmates.
I was wondering earlier, before getting to the computer this morning, are you familiar with the term Relationship OCD (R-OCD) and did you ever consider that it may apply to you?
As I read this I almost laughed because of how relatable the term is, no I haven’t heard of it, but it must apply to me. I think about it way too much, it is consuming. But what feels consuming is the decision, and feeling I am running out of time if I want a relationship I can build and have a strong foundation, then introduce a family into.
Sending gentle waves 🙂
Seaturtle
October 20, 2023 at 10:33 am #423593seaturtleParticipantDear Helcat,
No worries at all, I just wanted to make sure you saw the response to your message 🙂 I am sorry for what you are going through and please use your energy for your family right now and don’t feel pressure to get back here quickly. Take care of yourself and I hope to hear from you when you return,
Sending my best to you,
Seaturtle
October 20, 2023 at 11:08 am #423595anitaParticipantDear Seaturtle:
I will read and reply by Monday (you said that you’d like to take the weekends off). Please try to have a good, relaxing .. Teflon weekend!
anita
October 20, 2023 at 11:13 am #423596seaturtleParticipantAnita,
Hahaha, thank you! I will enjoy, I hope you do as well!
Seaturtle
October 20, 2023 at 3:12 pm #423602HelcatParticipantHi Seaturtle
Thank you for your patience and compassion! Please feel free to read this on Monday, since you like to have a break over the weekend.
I know exactly how you feel with the issues with apologies. I’ve had similar issues too with my husband. I’m glad to hear that your partner did get better at apologising though. Mine did too.
It also helped to calm my triggers to be treat with empathy and validation. I think that as time went on and we worked on things, I was more able to differentiate between the past and the present. I ended up feeling less and less the need for him to apologize to help soothe my anxiety because it became very clear to me that it was less to do with him and his behaviour and more to do with my past.
Regarding passive aggressive jokes, would be you like to share an example? I think this is something that I’ve been guilty of myself. I appreciate sarcastic humour, whereas my husband doesn’t. It annoyed my sister too when I would be sarcastic. I think that it’s important to take on board that feedback from people and even though it’s a tense situation and a sarcastic joke might lighten my mood, it can have the opposite effect on others. Being sensitive to other people’s needs is important especially to avoid escalating conflict.
It can definitely be difficult living with people so closely. It really takes some getting used to. I remember being annoyed by the lack of space for the first 6 months when my husband and I started living together. I hope that moving out helps you to process and gives you that comfort of having your own space.
I think that therapy could be helpful in the event that you two decide to live together again. You know now that it is a triggering experience for you both and could honestly use some support to help manage this. I think it’s possible to overcome this in a relationship if both partners are committed to supporting each other and working on it together.
Thank you for sharing your experiences of your trauma being invalidated, even though it was challenging for you. You have a lot of strength for being able to do so! What your partner doesn’t understand is that to articulate such deep emotions takes a lot of courage. It’s not a sign of weakness, it’s very much a strength that allows you to heal.
October 20, 2023 at 4:31 pm #423603HelcatParticipantI’m sorry for the amount of suffering that you and your siblings experienced as a result of your father. I did wonder if he was violent at all because of the extent of your trauma. Even witnessing violence from a parent is traumatic.
It’s really difficult because up until recently. Knowledge about trauma and it’s effects has been really limited. It’s only in our lifetime that hitting children has started to be banned. For generations, trauma has been handed down unrecognised and untreated.
I’m sorry to hear that your father would invalidate your trauma, actively deny it and blame you for it. That is extremely painful to experience. Unfortunately, that is very common when it comes to abusive parents. I experienced the same thing with mine too. I wonder, did your father suffer from depression at all?
In some cases, parents who have been abusive flip between denial and periods of lucidity where they experience depression and self-hatred as a result of the way that they’ve treat their children. They don’t usually articulate this as a reason for their depression to their children. I believe it’s a self-protective mechanism for them to live in denial.
I’m glad to hear that your relationship with your father has since improved. Sometimes I find that can create a disconnect or confusion about how was see them. At other times, having trauma invalidated by our abusers can create a sense of confusion and denial about our experiences in ourselves. Do you think you experienced any of this at all?
It’s extremely important that your partner works on not invalidating your trauma.
It is difficult for him to deal with your triggers because of his experiences with his parents. He is very sensitive to perceived criticism at this time. It’s honestly hard to say what kinds of things he experienced during his father’s periods of over sharing and it’s definitely concerning that he experienced that. I think that you’re a very empathetic person and now that it’s clear there is a trigger for him you will do your best to be sensitive to his needs while trying to manage your own.
I think there might also be an additional element too. You’re a very empathetic person, with great communication skills. During a trigger this breaks down a bit. I know that this is one reason why I go quiet sometimes too. I don’t want to say anything harmful to my partner. And sometimes the negative thoughts during a trigger are very strong. There are times when this “leaks” and can be harmful to your partner. I think it can be jarring for partners to experience the contrast between such attentive careful communication and a breakdown. I’m sure that you never intend to hurt your partner. It is just that difficult to communicate effectively when triggered sometimes. It gets easier with a lot of practice. I’m sure that you do your best and it is always something to keep working on.
I’m glad that your partner feels comfortable sharing with you when he feels hurt and that you are receptive to this, do your best to manage the situation and validate his feelings.
He needs to improve on doing the same for you. It sounds like sometimes he isn’t as receptive to your concerns when you raise them. But clearly, in some cases as with the apologies. There is improvement and he tries.
In the long run, I think his willingness to address these issues will ultimately determine if you both stay together. You are very willing to support him and his needs.
Have you ever had a discussion about him invalidating your trauma and how that makes you feel?
I hope that you have a good weekend! Love and best wishes! ❤️ 🙏
October 20, 2023 at 4:57 pm #423604HelcatParticipantI forgot to add some context about my relationship. My husband also had an abusive background.
I don’t remember if I’ve said this before, but I feel it’s important.
For a long time, I felt a sense of distrust and resentment that he wasn’t able to behave “perfectly” and avoid triggering me. I was genuinely hyper vigilant in the relationship and afraid of being abused.
It’s really difficult when the mind overlays past experiences onto our present. It is very confusing and ultimately, understandable that we want it to stop. But ultimately, my husband was never to blame. The traumatic experiences were to blame.
Since I’ve come to understand the large impact my PTSD has on communication during disagreements in the relationship. It’s really helped me to accept him and forgive his very human mistakes when they occur and to let go of that resentment.
I would also say that sometimes living with a roommate that you don’t like as well as a partner can exacerbate tensions. I went through this experience as well and honestly, it’s so much nicer living with only my partner and not having someone around that was actively uncomfortable to live with. Just added this because I seem to remember a roommate situation who you didn’t get on with.
October 21, 2023 at 8:00 am #423607anitaParticipantDear Seaturtle:
I am back sooner than I anticipated but I am okay with you either not reading or not responding to this post until next week, or whenever you choose.
Before I read and reply to your last post, I want to offer you my best understanding at this time, starting with the concept of the inner child and how it applies to you: part of you does not know the difference between Past and Present; for this part what was still is. This is your inner child.. your inner hatchling (baby sea turtle), so to speak… Hatch, for short. The other part of you is the adult you for whom there is Past and Present.
Hatch needed and still (there is no distinction for her between past and present), she needs to be seen and to be treated with kindness. Unfortunately for her, she was unseen and emotionally harassed by her father. The adult part of you thinks that it is something that happened, but for Hatch, it is still happening.
When you take Hatch with you to meet your father (recently for that hour visit during his golf tournament), she doesn’t want to go because she’s scared of him and/ or she is angry with him, but you take her anyway, and you tell her to be nice and that there is nothing to worry about. So, she goes with you quietly, holding her feelings in, and makes it possible for you to have a nice visit with him.
The visit is over, you take Hatch home and- no longer instructed to be nice and hold her feelings in- she let’s them out, aka she gets triggered in the company of your boyfriend and other people. The adult part of you thinks that her fear and/ or anger and other distress is about your boyfriend and the other people, but Hatch’s fear and anger, her distress, is about your father.
The price you pay for having a nice adult relationship with your father is .. UNSEEING Hatch.
To heal as much as is possible for you, you have to SEE Hatch and to do what’s in her best interest.
* I want to submit this and then start a new post with the continuation of this theme as I re-read your past posts.
anita
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