Dear Anita,

It was very interesting to read about your Uncle Morris and how he, in spite of also having grown up as an orphan and having been severely beaten, managed to become an emotionally healthy and kind person:

Yes, he was orphaned too and while she was sent to an orphanage kind of institution, and later, lived with her very abusive older sister, he was sent to live in a Kibbutz where he was terribly abused, mercilessly beaten on a regular basis by one of the kibbutz’s residents, a sadistic holocaust survivor- for a long, long time. That abuse may have been the reason for his severe seizures/ epilepsy.

For some reason, unlike the other siblings, he was interested in reading about psychology, got himself self-educated and attentive to the psychological development of his children. Each one of them grew up to be a unique individual with his/ her own unique path in life, and successful (last I remember.. and I remember wondering how it came up to be many years ago).

It seems that indeed, something was different about him, and he chose to rise above his trauma instead of perpetuating it and transferring it to the next generation.

It reminds me of Viktor Frankl, who too was a Holocaust survivor, but instead of becoming sadistic like your uncle’s abuser, he used his experience in concentrations camps to write his best-selling book “Man’s search for meaning”. I haven’t read the book yet, but I think it talks about finding meaning as a way of transcending pain and suffering. And I relate to that, even though my suffering is incomparable to his.

The way I see it: Viktor Frank transcended his trauma and didn’t let it destroy him. Other people, such as your mother, her older sister, and that sadistic Kibbutz resident, got drowned in it, I suppose, and found horrible ways to cope – by becoming abusers themselves.

I suppose your uncle wanted to alleviate his pain and suffering: that’s why he started reading self-help books and got interested in psychology. Whereas your mother (and my mother) decided that life is suffering – period, and that there is nothing they can do to help themselves. It’s like they got stuck in their trauma and in the victim mentality – and as a result, they made not only their own lives miserable, but also the lives of those around them.

Yes, I did share (2011-13) and I received enough support from my therapist at the time to decide (2013) to end contact with the mother. But what happened next was very disappointing to me, almost heart breaking: he did not support my decision. He was neither for it or against it. He definitely did not express approval of it. So, I thought: if he agreed with me about how terrible it was, why wouldn’t he support ending contact with her?

I interpreted his lack of approval and support as.. a repeat of any of the messages you listed above, as well as this message: Mother is Always Right (even when she is wrong), and A daughter Must Never End Contact with Her Mother No Matter What.

Shortly after, therapy ended as I left the State to another.

Wow, that is disappointing that your therapist didn’t support you when you decided to end contact with your mother. He knew that your mother was very abusive and would make you depressed every time you visited her or talked to her on the phone. Like, why would you expose yourself to more of her abuse – just to follow some social norms, or to appear “grown up” and “mature”?

Yeah, I can see why you didn’t feel like continuing therapy with him. I can imagine this was a blind spot of his, where he didn’t really see things clearly…

She shamed everyone’s bodies, meaning, in her conversations with her sisters, mostly on the phone, she’d gossip a lot and talk in derogatory ways about women’s bodies, how faulty they are (for not being model-like perfect), how they should be ashamed of themselves for not adequately covering their imperfections with loose/ modest clothing & such. There was a whole lot of such talking that I heard second hand. She used very vulgar words for a woman’s.. private part in her conversations. And there was no way to not hear her talking because the apartment was a very small 1-bdr apartment.

As a child and onward, I knew about neighbors’ and cousins’ sexual practices because she talked about such on the phone. A lot. And there was a lot of shaming involved. There was absolutely no censorship in her talking to her sisters on the phone (or in person), considering there was a child present. I remember seeing the people she talked about in real life and having the images in my mind of what they were doing sexually. It was very unpleasant for me to have those images.

My goodness! Using vulgar, explicit language in front of the child, and commenting other people’s sexual lives in front of you – that’s totally inappropriate and abusive. It was exposing you to inappropriate sexual content – violating the innocence of a child’s mind. :\

As far as the bathing as a teenager- that was excruciating. It was traumatic. To say NO to her didn’t even cross my mind. Not an option.

Yes, I can imagine. By that time you were already conditioned to accept everything, or else face her rage, or her suicide threats… 🙁

But at one point on, I negotiated and was allowed to wash parts of me on my own. And at one point on, I was to be in the bathroom alone and was myself on my own, then call her to come in and wash my back and head only(she said I couldn’t do it right on my own).

Good for you! You did manage you negotiate something for yourself. You did show some agency, you did stand up for yourself, even if just a little. But I can imagine how excruciatingly painful and embarrassing that whole experience was, and how horribly you felt about it.

All this part I just shared, I didn’t share it with my therapist at the time.. or if I did, only a tiny bit of it (don’t remember at all)

I can understand why – he was a man, so that might have been one reason. It’s hard to share such intimate things with a person of the opposite sex…

When I read the word “receiving” in “we should be mostly just receiving”, as in, the inner child receiving.. I felt alarmed, as in receiving the mother’s hands on my naked body, or receiving her hands scrubbing my hurting scalp..

Right… receiving anything from her was toxic, felt like a violation. Perhaps what would help is to always imagine adult Anita (AA) next to LGA, whenever you think of your inner child? Maybe adult Anita should become LGA’s chaperone and a trusted person, so that no one can get to LGA, unless approved by AA? I wonder if that’s something that would make you feel safer?

Oh, and by the way, I started incorporating strengthening the quadriceps into my daily exercise yesterday, following your advice (strengthening the gluteus muscles has been part of my daily exercise for years).

Good to hear that! Have you noticed any difference?

And good job being so conscientious about physical exercise over the years! I’m sure it will help you stay fit and healthy for a long time! (flexed muscle emoji 🙂 )

* correction: owns your body

Dear Anita,

actually I was feeling quite good yesterday, not too much pain thankfully. It’s a good feeling to be pain-free, or almost pain-free in my body, even if it’s just for a short while. So I appreciated it. 🙏 Let’s hope today will be similar 🤞😊

Again, no one has ever said these words to me. If only someone said this to me when I was 18, 28, 38.. struggling with severe depression. Everyone has always been For Mother (any mother) and against anyone who spoke against mother.

Societal Empathy and Allegiance has Always been With Mother…

I’m sorry that no one acknowledged your pain before… I can imagine people back at home told you platitudes, like “your mother did the best she could, she sacrificed so much for you, you should be grateful to your mother, your mother loves you”, and stuff like that, right? What about later, in therapy? Have you talked about your childhood in therapy?

You are hearing me, Tee, saying: yes, it really happened. I hear you. I believe you.

Yes, I really do. I hear you. I believe you. I trust that it happened. And that it was horrific 🙁

As I wrote “my chest”, I felt ashamed, ashamed of having a chest.. meaning having a female chest.. So much shame about.. well, I’m too ashamed to talk about it. So much shame she inflicted on me for.. well, for the body being anything different from a clean, plastic doll’s body, genderless.. plasticly clean.

I’ve received a small portion of the similar type of shaming from my mother too. It wasn’t nearly as extensive, but I’ve never felt good in my body. I felt ashamed of myself, and that included my body too.

I can imagine how painful it was for you to hear those shaming words… I’m now thinking that she used to bathe you and dress you into your teenage years. Is that when the body-related shaming started?

I hope this is not too much for you, Tee..?

It’s not too much, Anita. I’ve experienced a small portion of it myself, so I understand.

What is more challenging to me is how to help you, since I’m not a therapist. And so I’m thinking that I should refrain from suggesting various corrective exercises, since some of those might be triggering for you.

I’m almost sure that you would benefit from some type of somatic therapy, e.g. Somatic Experiencing (which I think you mentioned in a response to a member a while ago). Because it involves working with the body (where the trauma is stored), but in a very gentle, gradual way, so that you never get overwhelmed. I think somatic therapy involves various corrective exercises too, but again, it happens in an orderly way, tailored to each individual’s needs.

So I’m a bit reluctant to suggest those exercises, because I’m not an expert, and trauma healing is best done with expert guidance…

I am a good little girl. I deserve love and appreciation. I always did. I was always a good little girl. I deserved acceptance, acceptance of the human body I found myself in, living with it in peace. I deserve gentle coaching, being taught how to live, how to make choices, to have agency in my life, to love myself and hold myself accountable for my words and actions today and every day.

Those are all very good affirmations, Anita. Just one observation, if I may: I think that from the perspective of the inner child, you don’t even need to put a stress on holding yourself accountable. Because being a child is primarily about feeling loved, cared for, and care-free. Holding yourself accountable is more a feature of your adult self.

So perhaps your inner child – little girl Anita – should simply be loved, nurtured, gently held, soothed… (by your adult self), without any expectations on her, including the expectation to be accountable for her words and actions.

Expectations come later in life, but as infants and toddlers, we should be mostly just receiving, without being expected to give anything in return (now it occurs to me that it would be the closest feeling to unconditional love, I guess: just receiving the goodness, soaking it in, and not being expected to earn it in any way).

What do you say?

❤️ 🫶 ❤️

P.S. I’ll reply to the rest in another post, hopefully later today.

Dear Anita,

Tee keeps her promises, thank you 😊 🙏

Haha, mostly yes, except when I have an acute health issue and then my health anxiety spikes and I can’t focus on much else… but yeah, so far so good with this latest flare-up 😊

thank you for your sensitivity. I thought about contacting him long ago, but was afraid that it will reach her and cause her pain that I reached him, as in a betrayal of her (while being in no contact with her).

Remember I shared that she looked at me threateningly when he was curious about me, and kind to me..?

I was afraid of her (what she will do to me if I open up to anyone) and for her (that she would be so very hurt if I did).

I totally understand you. You didn’t want to hurt her and you didn’t want to get yourself in trouble either. You were afraid of her reaction. All understandable, Anita.

Now, it’s been so many years, uncle Morris probably didn’t think of me for a very, very long time. i wouldn’t want to trouble him- potentially- in his last days.

Yes… perhaps you can inquire about him at your sister? But I understand that you don’t want to stir the pot now, causing commotion, and that you feel it’s better to keep things as they are. These are difficult and delicate things, by all means.

“loved ones”- not one they love, not one she loved (me), but the one who loved her.

Absolutely… you loved her, she didn’t love you…

there is a shift in the making.

I’m happy about that ❤️

As for your knee pain:

no, I avoid doctors and medical appointments. I have no doubt that at least one issue is osteoarthritis.

At this point it’s probably just a mild osteoarthritis, since you can still complete your daily walk without significant pain, right?

If that’s the case, I suggest looking into preventative measures such as food supplements and physical exercise, specially strengthening the quadriceps and gluteus muscles, because that helps take the pressure off the knee joint. The stronger the muscles, the less stress on the joint.

Hmm. I wouldn’t go to a swimming pool because I wouldn’t want to be seen in a swimming suit, at least not of the regular kind. Nor would I want to see others

Haha… I’ve got different concerns, part of it is hygiene, but also some other impracticalities… so I’m really not keen on going to swimming pools. But at the same time, I know it could help me, so by not going, I’m not doing myself a favor…

Thank you for your kind words, Copilot couldn’t or wouldn’t have said it better! I hope that by the time you are reading this message, you are still feeling better

You’re welcome, Anita. My back is feeling better, thankfully, but now my neck started hurting 😕, probably due to poor posture. I’m hoping to discuss all this with my orthopedic doctor, and get a good protocol for physical therapy 🤞

Oh, I forgot to add: no more messages from Copilot to you, Tee, now that I know that you wouldn’t like it

Thanks Anita, yeah, I want to treat AI as a machine, not a person, and so I’m quite resistant to its “empathy” because I know it’s just a program. Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s very useful for getting facts and information (although it’s not 100% reliable either, because I had examples where it gave me false information, although that was rare). Anyway, facts and data – yes, emotional support no – that’s my stance towards AI 🙂

But as I said, I very much appreciate your care and concern, and empathy ❤️

Dear Alessa,

good to hear from you! ❤️

Yes, I’m doing better thankfully, but haven’t started physical therapy yet. I’m waiting for my old orthopedic doctor (whom I trust) to recommend a protocol that I can follow. Because I want to be sure not to aggravate the pain with wrong moves…

Yes, basically! I do think I’m a bit too receptive. I tend to push myself beyond the point where I’m comfortable, especially if the other person feels bad about something. I think I need to cut things off a bit sooner.

Right… you’re an empath, it seems to me, and really keen on helping people, but you need to take care of yourself too. You cannot spread yourself thin, specially if the person is a difficult one and kind of never happy, always complaining, always having issues that they expect you to take care of (or even if they don’t expect you, that you feel like it’s your duty to take care of).

I’ve been looking into communication techniques to help with this since I have a habit of shutting down and withdrawing as well.

Yeah, if you have a habit of oscillating between being eager and trying to help and then feeling overwhelmed after a while and withdrawing, perhaps it would make sense to sort of first decide with yourself on the level of engagement that you would prefer with a particular person: what it is that would feel comfortable and not too enmeshed (which leads to burnout), but also not too withdrawn, which doesn’t make you feel good either, it seems.

So to decide what would be a comfortable engagement level, or engagement intensity for you. If that makes sense?

I was thinking about what you said. Thank you for encouraging me to not dismiss my own needs. After reflecting, I think I have been doing that a bit. I do let a lot slide.

You’re welcome! I do hope you won’t dismiss your needs and you will stand up for yourself when needed.

It is hard to deal with things without putting pressure on people.

Right, especially if that’s someone you depend on, e.g. you need them to help you out. If they’re not keeping their part of the deal, it’s hard to look away and not put pressure on them, since it’s something you really need from them and are not getting.

I think because of my autism, ptsd, postpartum depression, having a child and no child care. Plus in general, there has been a lot of stress in my life too. It’s been one thing after another for the past couple of years. It’s created a bit of a crisis and I do try my best to just keep things calm as opposed to dealing with everything.

I hear you, Alessa. It seems one problem is that you don’t have help with child care and that you have to take care of a lot of the things alone. I don’t want to be insensitive and pry, but I understand it’s hard to be in a situation like that. It does put a lot of stress on the person.

And if you add to that other conditions, such as autism, PTSD, postpartum depression, chronic health issues.. it’s really a lot. I can imagine it’s hard for you, Alessa ❤️

And I wish you would have more help with certain things. Is your son going to qualify for nursery soon?

But I’m starting to see that the downside to things piling up is resentment. I guess I’m going to have to prioritise and try to clear my plate so to speak.

Yes, I’d encourage you to seek help if anyhow possible and/or try to clear your plate, so you don’t take on duties that are not yours to take care of. To truly try to take care of yourself as much as possible ❤️

Hmm well it is hard to let go of the desire to feel accepted by people we care about. I think I’m stubborn and not afraid of hard work.

I know, Alessa. Sometimes the people we really care about aren’t able to give us what we need, because they’re preoccupied with themselves. Sometimes we won’t get their love and acceptance even if we invest a lot of hard work in trying. That’s what I’ve experienced with my mother, for example.

But of course, people are different and sometimes it makes sense to put effort in the relationship, especially if the other person is putting some effort on their part too and if things are not one-sided. ❤️

I do need to do a better job of taking care of myself though. It’s no good if I burn out trying to take care of everyone else. Just going to politely have to say no sometimes.

Yes, definitely! Please take care of yourself, because you know the metaphor: you first need to put on your own oxygen mask, because if you burn out, you’re not helping anyone, specially not your son! ❤️❤️

Hi SereneWolf,

learning Greek at the moment? 🙂

You’re feeling better? Or at least able to dance? Haha

Ah no dancing for me unfortunately… 3 weeks ago I got another flare-up with my spine, totally out of the blue, so struggling with that… It’s a never-ending battle with those conditions that affect my mobility (and consequently, my ability to have fun and enjoy some important aspects of life). But it is what it is… it forces me to look deep within and find meaning in all this, and how I might be contributing to these things happening… and so I try to look at it as a lesson and not get too depressed about it.

No, I don’t express frustration to him. But yeah, sometimes I do raise my voice when I can’t bear it. Mostly I just let it go and focus on myself.

Okay good. Yeah, it’s okay to give advice and tell him what would be the best to do for his healing, but if he’s stubborn and refuses to listen, there’s no point in insisting. The wisest thing then is to let go and focus on yourself – on improving your own life, on controlling that what you can control, rather than getting upset about him and trying to change him…

Yes, it’s better. I want to keep this habit of meditation and mindfulness because sometimes I still get overwhelmed with emotions, and because of that, I procrastinate.

Right, and it seems meditation and mindfulness help you emotionally better regulate yourself – not be overwhelmed by negative emotions – and so you can keep your focus more easily, right?

This week was quite productive though. Also, I’m using better strategies as well. I started actually applying with another friend. she’s also going through similar things. So it’s kinda like good support as well.

Cool! It’s great that you have someone to support you, who is in a similar situation. So you support each other. Which is great, because you don’t feel like you’re going through this all alone…

Yes, I agree. The sad thing is it’s always the comparison. That’s why they aren’t happy with what their kids achieved. They’ll be like, “No, their kids achieved more, you do that too.”

That’s very unfortunate. The never-ending comparison… If children are raised in a way that they are constantly compared to other kids instead of being appreciated for who they are – for their own unique gifts and personality – it’s a recipe for poor self-esteem. And if this is embedded in the entire culture, then I guess it results in quite a few people lacking real self-esteem and then competing with each other, rather than appreciating each other.

I don’t know, it just seems unhealthy for the society at large to put such pressure on children… but I don’t know enough, so please feel free to share your impressions, based on your real-life experience. I’d like to know more about if and e.g. how this culture affects work places – whether there is a sense of competition between people working on the same team, or there is still a sense of mutuality, collaboration and team spirit?

(but also please disregard if this is not an issue and I’m just inventing some hypothetical problems)

Yes, I want to learn and actually experience unconditional love (not just parental). but do you really think love can be unconditional? or it’s just a myth, Even are there people who can love you unconditionally? Because even blood related people can’t love unconditionally so. Isn’t that too much expectation waiting to be shattered. that’s what I was thinking lately

That’s a very good question, SereneWolf. I’m thinking about it as I’m typing, since I haven’t really thought about it before… Well, I think unconditional love doesn’t mean tolerating behavior that is unacceptable. So a parent can love their child unconditionally – appreciate their unique gifts, talents and personality – but put limits on certain bad behaviors.

As an adult, we might love someone for who they are, even if we don’t agree with some of their behaviors or even attitudes. The person might have some habits or idiosyncrasies that we don’t necessarily appreciate, but it’s not something that would make us leave the relationship, since those habits are not destructive or disrespectful or harmful to anyone.

The person is still a good person, they have a good heart, their core values align with ours. We feel loved and respected in the relationship, we feel supported to pursue our goals and dreams, and the other person doesn’t feel threatened by those pursuits. They support us, rather than discourage us.

I don’t know if this is called unconditional love, but I think it’s healthy love, it’s a mark of a healthy relationship. So we’re free to be our true self, and some of our “kinks” are accepted, because well, “nobody is perfect”.

And another thing comes to mind: the more the person is in touch with their true self (rather than stuck in their ego), the more we can love them. And the more they can love us too. True self to true self – is I think the best recipe for a healthy relationship.

So perhaps it can be said that we can love each other’s true self unconditionally. Because it’s so easy to love. But we don’t need to love the other person’s ego unconditionally. We can challenge that, put boundaries on that.

Anyway, this is just my musings… I wonder what you think?

Thanks a lot. I had a therapy session a few days ago and I did give the pointers that you mentioned, and she suggested two things. First, have a wallet photo of my childhood self and be kinder to him, or whenever I’m too critical, just look at it so I can know who I’m getting angry at and judging. (I think much earlier you or maybe Anita suggested me this) Also, she told me to write letter, especially to my father. I don’t have to send but put all the frustration and internal hate there and let it out.

You’re welcome! Yes, I remember one of us suggested having a childhood photo of yours at hand. I think it’s a great idea what your therapist suggested to take a glance at your childhood photo whenever you feel critical of yourself. Because that should fill you with compassion and neutralize or at least lessen the blow by the inner critic. Because we cannot criticize ourselves and have compassion for ourselves at the same time… So yes, I think it’s a very good strategy.

Also the letter to your father that you write but don’t send: to express the anger and frustration at him, which you are totally allowed to feel, because he did hurt you with his upbringing. That’s a very good idea too – I hope you’ll try it!

This therapist is actually Asian, that’s why she can understand Asian family dynamics better. And no disrespect, but British therapists were too vague and generic, like “that is wrong” and “blah blah,” but I’m like, you don’t understand—it’s not only my parents, it’s literally the norm and culture here. So I don’t want to put effort into changing the whole culture. And then luckily, I found this one when I emailed that I specifically wanted an Asian therapist.

Oh okay, you feel more understood by an Asian therapist, who understands and has probably grown up in the same culture. And sure, you don’t want to (and wouldn’t even be able to) change the entire culture and its norms. However, you can heal from some of the consequences of that culture, and also choose to take some of those norms and expectations in a more relaxed way, so that you don’t feel like a bad person if you don’t follow them.

I’m glad you’re feeling rapport with your new therapist, and that you don’t feel judged but understood and supported. Happy for you, SereneWolf!

Dear Anita,

I’m very happy that my feedback is helping you on your healing journey. ❤️❤️ It’s also good to hear that you were not as afraid when your sister called you yesterday. Has she mentioned something that would suggest that your mother is doing poorly health-wise?

Little girl mother needed to destroy me, so she did, and so, little girl Anita was so very messed up, not in the position- in adulthood- to be mother to.. Little Angry Girl Mother.

I think it wasn’t your mother’s inner child (Little Girl Mother) who was trying to destroy you, but her protective parts – the shield that she developed around her heart – to protect herself from pain and vulnerability. I think it was her defense mechanisms that kept hurting you, because she refused to admit that there’s an unresolved pain within her – which comes from the inside, not from the outside.

And so instead of admitting and processing her own childhood trauma, her own internal pain – she kept blaming you (and everyone else) for causing her that pain. She projected that pain on the outside, so she wouldn’t have to look at it and face herself. So she wouldn’t have to be vulnerable, basically.

So instead of being vulnerable, instead of admitting that there’s something within her that prevents her from being happy – she blamed you (and everyone else) for her unhappiness.

Chance are that you’ve never seen the Little Girl Mother, because she never showed herself to you, or even if she showed herself, those were just brief moments. I know she was complaining and pitying herself a lot, but her self-pitying part was not the scared inner child – I think it was a protective part with which she guilt-tripped and blamed others.

She never really wanted to be helped – nothing you offered or tried was good enough (which is typical for covert narcissistic people). There was nothing that could make her happy – because she didn’t want to be happy. She used her unhappiness as a tool to manipulate and control others.

This resistance to happiness is not the mark of the inner child, or at least not of the most vulnerable part of us. Because the inner child – the precious, lovable little being that we are – wants to be happy and held and loved. It wants to love and be loved. And chances are that you’ve never really seen that part of your mother: the innermost, the most vulnerable part of her. Because she guarded it diligently…

And most probably she will keep guarding it till the moment she dies… otherwise she would have made a move to show that she’s sorry for some of the things she’s done to you or your sister. She would have shown regret. But because she hasn’t, it means she’s still living in that defensive armor…

I have an image from this movie, a horror movie, about a 4-year-old boy with an innocent face (an inner child) stabbing people while all along having this hurt little-boy look on his face.

Yeah, that’s the most creepy types of horror movies – when an innocent-looking child is a murderer. But as I said, it’s not the inner child that murders or abuses people, but the defensive parts that come “on top” of the inner child.

I imagine our personality like Russian dolls: the innermost part is the wounded inner child, and the outer layers are various protector parts, i.e. defense mechanisms. At least that’s how the Internal Family Systems therapy looks at our personality, and I find it pretty plausible.

Hurt people hurt people. And if the person refuses to admit that they were hurt (as children) and that there’s some deficiency in them as a result of that hurt – that’s how I think the narcissistic personality is created. Because they say: “there is no deficiency in me – it’s you who is making me feel this way. It’s your fault, not mine.”

Anyway, I hope this makes sense to you? That it wasn’t your mother’s inner child that has hurt you, but other parts of her, which were “protecting” her inner child. Her inner child – if my theory is correct – was “locked away”, so to speak, and wasn’t accessible to her (she didn’t want to get in touch with it).

As for my herniated disc, yes please do send what Copilot has to say about the causes of pain and the prospects for healing. I too have been consulting AI, but I’m interested in reading more, because as you say, there might be something new for me. So yes, I’d be happy to read your summary.

All this is helpful to me, particularly in regard to my knees pain-related health anxiety. Thank you 🙏

You’re welcome, Anita. ❤️ I don’t want to offer advice (unless you want me to), but if you’re afraid of cartilage thinning, the first line of defense would be to take food supplements, such as glucosamine and chondroitin, which are the building blocks of cartilage. I’ve heard it helps people who only have a mild cartilage wear – it stops the pain and I guess it stops the condition from progressing as well.

❤️ 🫶 ❤️