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December 17, 2024 at 11:35 am #440809anitaParticipant
Dear Jana:
This quote from the Buddha speaks about maintaining compassion and loving-kindness, even in the face of extreme adversity and cruelty. The idea that we should not allow hatred to take root, even when faced with unimaginable suffering, highlights the depth of Buddhist teachings on non-violence and inner peace. The emphasis is on training our minds to remain unaffected and to cultivate compassion, even towards those who harm us. This teaching challenges us to rise above our instinctual reactions and aim for a higher state of consciousness where love and compassion prevail over hatred and harm.
I want to think about it further Wed morning and get back to you. What are your thoughts on this quote? How do you think we can apply these teachings in our everyday lives?
anita
December 17, 2024 at 2:14 pm #440814HelcatParticipantHi Jana
I haven’t come across that quote before, thank you for sharing it! It reminds me of a story about a monk who was imprisoned and tortured. He forgave even the people who committed the vilest torture.
I do believe that compassion and understanding are key to these things. I’m keen to hear your thoughts too.
Love, peace and best wishes! ❤️🙏
December 17, 2024 at 3:08 pm #440817PeterParticipantHi Jana
I haven’t seen that quote before.
The other day I was watching a old film about war where the soldiers behind enemy lines argued about taking some action that in some of their views would make then little different then the enemy. The danger is war is becoming what your fighting. You can see this in the conflicts today.
A story comes to mind that Campbell told “of a samurai warrior, a Japanese warrior, who had the duty to avenge the murder of his overlord. And he actually, after some time, found and cornered the man who had murdered his overlord. And he was about to deal with him with his samurai sword, when this man in the corner, in the passion of terror, spat in his face. And the samurai sheathed the sword and walked away”
Had the samurai killed the murder out of anger instead of his dharma, would the samurai still be a samurai?
I think there is truth in the saying that the end is in the beginning, the inner place from which we act matters.December 18, 2024 at 7:10 am #440824Jana 🪷ParticipantHello all! 🙂 I’ve been much busier now than I expected so I don’t have enough time to reply in more details. I will do so later tomorrow or during Friday when I have a free day. The quote is from https:// http://www.dhammatalks .org/suttas /MN/MN21.html I found it when I tried to search “Zen Buddhism what to do when I am attacked”. Thank you for all your replies! I’m inerested in your thoughts and experiences.
☀️ 🪷
December 18, 2024 at 8:39 am #440833anitaParticipantHello all:
Compassion (karuṇā) and loving-kindness (mettā) are central tenets of Buddhism. These virtues are meant to be extended to all beings, even those who cause harm. The teachings encourage practitioners to cultivate these qualities universally, without discrimination. The teachings aim at transforming the practitioner’s inner state, fostering a mindset where compassion becomes a natural response. This process takes time and practice.
The ideal of extending compassion to torturers is more about guiding one’s intentions and inner state than about expecting literal application in all situations (such as.. feeding/ helping a torturer to torture others out of compassion for the torturer).
Buddhism also recognizes the importance of boundaries and self-care. It’s essential to protect oneself from harm and not to enable abusive behavior. Tara Anand, a Buddhist and illustrator and visual artist from Bombay, India, currently based in New York City, in her article titled “Is an Aspiring Bodhisattva Allowed to Have Boundaries?” published in Tricycle, wrote: “Without healthy boundaries to enable self-preservation and allow self-care, it may be difficult to cultivate the steady stream of energy that is required to walk the path.”
Buddhability on Setting Boundaries: “Boundaries are limits and needs you express to yourself and others in order to feel safe, healthy, and comfortable.”, “Setting boundaries is how we share with others what behavior we find acceptable and what behavior we do not.”
Self-care is crucial for sustaining the energy and compassion needed to walk the Buddhist path. It’s about protecting oneself from harm and not enabling abusive behavior under the guise of compassion.
In real-life situations, the application of compassion can vary. While the ideal is to maintain an open heart, it’s also important to consider the context and one’s capacity at the moment. It’s crucial to have realistic expectations and understand that extreme compassion is a guiding star, helping practitioners cultivate a compassionate mindset, while also acknowledging the need for self-protection and contextual adaptation.
anitaDecember 18, 2024 at 10:38 am #440836PeterParticipantHi
It’s crucial to have realistic expectations and understand that extreme compassion is a guiding star, helping practitioners cultivate a compassionate mindset, while also acknowledging the need for self-protection and contextual adaptation.
I often find myself asking: Is it possible to remain compassionate while holding someone accountable and or protecting oneself?
I think the Buddha is say yes it is not only possible but something expected from his followers.I’ll be honest and say that sometimes to take action I rely on the passion of righteous righteousness. Or using the adrenaline boost from fear, anger and hate, which I then take on as ‘being’ – I am angry, I am hate… and compassion nowhere to be found. When ‘I am anger and or hate’ getting even is the most likely driving force behind my actions..
There doesn’t seem to be a great deal of energy created from the compassionate state, but maybe that’s the wrong way to look it?
When I feel anger or fear, and get that boost of energy, the energy remains available without me having to ‘become anger’, I can still act from a place of compassion while holding someone accountable or protecting myself. I can do it not from a place of getting even, being right… but from a place of compassion. I don’t have to become what I’m fighting against to fight it.
December 19, 2024 at 6:54 am #440855Jana 🪷ParticipantHello,
thank you for your replies and opinions.
The way I deal with this question – cope with my fear of being possibly attacked – is as following. I believe that partly I am able to protect myself by my way of living – following the Eightfold Noble Path. I can protect myself simply by leading a moral life. Then there is no sound reason (for most people) to attack me.
I think that in practical life, regardless of whether one is a Buddhist or not, these points are the most important:
– Right Thinking
– Right Speech
– Right ActionIf I refrain from negative thinking about others, from false, divisive or harsh speech and from harmful actions in general (stealing, hurting, sexual misconduct, …), I will minimalize chances to be verbally or even physically attacked. Simply by the fact that there is no reason to do so. Does it make sense? (I am exhausted after a lot of socialization so I am not in my best form explaining my thoughts)
But some of you might remember what I was dealing with (physical bullying, emotional and social rejection). And although I am save and very happy these days (I am very grateful for that), it still makes me wonder how I can protect myself from evil people. I feel compassion, I wish them good from all my heart and I hope that one day / one lifetime they will be able to reach the Buddha in themselves. I really do. I do not have grudge against society or people in general, let alone someone specific. I never did even when I was bullied. I always wanted to understand them. But I know that my compassion, good heart, goodness won’t protect me against a real attack… I know it all too well. (You too, don’t you?) Some people are so lost, they would not be ashamed to kill a monk. And this is a real life… such people are among us.
Can we really be pure Buddhists to survive in real, practical life where you must socialize with all kinds of people including very bad ones? Don’t you think that there is a reason why Gautamma ordered monks to stay away from ordinary people (even their own families) in the woods and temples? It is written in the first chapters of dhammapadda.
I’ll come tomorrow back to your earlier answers. 🙂
☀️ 🪷
December 19, 2024 at 8:59 am #440859anitaParticipantDear Jana:
Your commitment to living a moral life and following the Eightfold Noble Path is truly admirable. It makes perfect sense that leading a life rooted in Right Thinking, Right Speech, and Right Action can help minimize conflicts and attacks. True, in practical life, compassion and goodness do not always protect people from real harm.
“Can we really be pure Buddhists to survive in real, practical life where you must socialize with all kinds of people including very bad ones?”- one of Buddhism’s core teachings is the impermanence of all things. This includes understanding that situations .and people can change. Adapting to changing circumstances and behaviors (including by protecting oneself) while maintaining core principles is part of being a Buddhist.
Setting boundaries to protect oneself from harm is consistent with the principle of non-harming (ahimsa), which includes not harming oneself. Buddhism is about acting with compassion, but not enabling harmful behavior. For example, if someone is being unkind, respond with calmness and compassion but also assertively communicate your boundaries.
Buddhism teaches the concept of “skillful means” (upaya) which involves using wisdom and compassion to handle situations in the most skillful, effective ways: finding ways to avoid conflict, using diplomacy (diplomacy that’s to be adjusted to a culture that frowns on politeness/ aplogizing, as you shared about recently..), and seeking peaceful resolutions while staying true to your principles.
Practicing mindfulness helps in staying present and responding thoughtfully rather than reacting impulsively. It helps in recognizing harmful behaviors, setting appropriate boundaries, and protecting oneself.
In essence, being a “pure Buddhist” (I read and learn) in practical life involves striving to embody the principles of Buddhism while recognizing the need for practical wisdom, self-care, and protecting onself- and others- from harm.
anita
December 19, 2024 at 2:20 pm #440871PeterParticipantHI Jana
Can we really be pure Buddhists to survive in real, practical life where you must socialize with all kinds of people including very bad ones?
I’m not sure how I feel about the notion of ‘Pure Buddhism’ and worry that it could be mistaking the boat for the destination.
Essentially your asking if it is reasonable to ask a person to be true to themselves, there belief, their values… when having to deal with Life? I feel that it is, but that that does not mean that when we fail, as we will, we do not hold the values we have.It seems I’m hearing the question as permission to fail, which I don’t think is what your suggesting. I do know that if your resound to hate with hate, anger with anger, fear with fear… someone cutting you up in pieces with cutting someone up to pieces … your creating more of the same.
Its my feeling that the only tools we have to influence life direction is compassion and forgiveness.
December 19, 2024 at 8:59 pm #440877HelcatParticipantHi Jana
Regarding worrying about feeling attacked. I think that a way to deal with this is to build up your confidence in coping with these situations and acknowledging that the past was difficult, and it is stressful to deal with these things even as an adult. But! You are an adult and you are very capable of handling difficult situations.
You handled the difficulties with your neighbour well. You deal with criticism from others well. Whilst it does hurt. You are a very capable person. Even as a child, you stood up to bullies and protected others.
My thoughts are that there are bad people in the world, but there are far more average person in the world and there are also good people in the world. The key is being able to tell the difference. The way that people behave with others is a predictor for how they will treat you. People often have patterns. If you listen and watch, you can learn who you should avoid or if forced to interact with them, be very careful around.
I think that if we are careful as adults, very few seriously bad things happen and the bad things that do happen if you take care of yourself well are often unpreventable and unpredictable. I like to compare my fears with outcomes because I have a tendency to catastrophise. I find that it helps to reassure myself that my worst fears are unlikely to come true and that a more tolerable outcome is likely because I am capable and skilled enough to handle emergencies.
Love, peace and best wishes! ❤️🙏
December 20, 2024 at 5:58 am #440884Jana 🪷ParticipantHello Anita,
thank you for your explanation. I do agree. This is the middle way. 🙂
I am not sure what you meant when you wrote about the impermanence in this context of fear of violence: “one of Buddhism’s core teachings is the impermanence of all things. This includes understanding that situations .and people can change. Adapting to changing circumstances and behaviors (including by protecting oneself) while maintaining core principles is part of being a Buddhist.”
Hello Peter,
“Is it possible to remain compassionate while holding someone accountable and or protecting oneself?” I believe it is. I don’t find compassion and accountability contradicting. Don’t we help the person when we generate good Karma for example by persuading him not to attack us with compassionate attitude?
I find a “pure buddhist” as a very good person with highly moral standards and very pacifistic attitude, which is unfortunately in our world easily taken advantage of. But I might be wrong… I’m still on my way of understanding. 🙂
I am not sure if I understand this: “… using the adrenaline boost from fear, anger and hate, which I then take on as ‘being’ – I am angry, I am hate… and compassion nowhere to be found. When ‘I am anger and or hate’ getting even is the most likely driving force behind my actions.” Can you elaborate on it and maybe write some specific situations?
Hello Helcat,
thank you for your support and understanding. You are right that it has much to do with my confidence. But I would repeat myself again. I sometimes find it difficult to tell the difference between people. Some people are good actors. But I rely more on my intuition now. I try not to overthink. As for violent types of people, such as the hooligans, I would try to stay out of their way, of course. But If I was confronted and threatened to be beaten as in the past with the neonazis again, I would try to talk my way out of it… with my open heart, understandnig and compassion. I know that such violent behaviour is rooted in his suffering. And if there was just a shred of sense and love in him, he would possibly retreat…
This brought up another memory. I was playing outside with my friend nearby the woods and we were found by a group of boys who wanted to celebrate Walpurgis Night (we call it here “Burning of the witches”)… simply, people gather around a bonfire, sing, drink, eat and burn a witch made of hay and twigs… And their “leader” ordered us to get them wood for their campfire. It wasn’t a problem for me and I brought the wood. He continued to be bossy and ordered me to prepare the fire and do this and that… I did it without any words or much resistance. In my head I evaluated (out of fear) that it was better to obey and I actually didn’t mind the work… I noticed that the more I obeyed him, the nicer he was to me. In the end I was even invited to stay at the campfire (which I didn’t because I was too shy to stay there with four older boys). But my friend was older than me and she was much more stubborn… and the more she resisted him, the angrier he got… I tried to tell her “Come on, do it and we can go”, but she wouldn’t listen to me… I told him that I would do the work that I didn’t mind doing it, but he was already so irritated by her resistance than he didn’t listen to me, either. And it ended up in some nasty hits…
But now… I don’t know why I started writing this. 😅 I got lost in my thoughts. Maybe later.
☀️ 🪷
December 20, 2024 at 7:26 am #440890Jana 🪷Participant📔 journal (Dec 20 2024, 16:00)
I was very busy – teaching, Christmas preparations, visits, shopping, … I am exhausted. I didn’t have time to meditate and need to get back to my mindfulness again.
Our pets don’t like visitors. Our dog is very jealous. She needs to check the visitors all the time and when we let her in her kennel (because not all people like big dogs), she is sad. She always chews on visitors’ shoes and other things she finds. Our cat doesn’t like strangers and she always runs away and returns only when she knows there is noone unknown in our house.
This morning I had a typical introvert hangover again. But I managed to get out of it quite soon. I know now when I get in this mood, it is the accumulated stress by too much socializing. I took our dog for a very long walk to get rid off my headache. It worked.
Honestly, I don’t enjoy Christmas time anymore. People are being crazy. Many people are in a depressive mood… where is all the peace, good mood and love? Why are people so serious about Christmas? It’s just a holiday… but people are horribly stressed out.
I am happy that we will visit my parents on Sunday and then we have a few days just with each other without anyone around. ❤️ My ideal world. 😊
☀️ 🪷
December 20, 2024 at 7:47 am #440891anitaParticipantDear Jana:
You are welcome. As far as the quote about the impermanence of all things (“anicca” in Pali): this teaching asserts that everything in life— situations, experiences, emotions, people— constantly changes. Accepting this can lead to a more adaptable, less attached mindset, and to better coping with life’s unpredictability.
The principle of anicca is applicable in the context of fear and violence in the following ways: (1) recognizing that fear is a passing state can help mitigate its impact. By understanding that the intensity of fear will eventually subside, a person can manage their response to fear more effectively and avoid being paralyzed by it.
(2) understanding that a somewhat threatening/ scary situation will pass, can help a person respond to it mindfully in a way that de-escalates the situation, instead of responding to it impulsively, and escalating the situation.
(3) After experiencing fear or violence, the understanding of impermanence can help in healing. Knowing that the pain and trauma, while significant, are not eternal, can provide hope and facilitate the process of recovery and moving forward.
Anicca doesn’t mean accepting mistreatment but rather responding to it most effectively.
For example, in the Walpurgis Night situation you shared about, the leader’s behavior was authoritative and bossy, indicating a desire for control and dominance, common in group settings where one person tries to assert power. Out of fear, you chose to comply with the leader’s demands, which led to a decrease in his aggression, while your friend resisted, standing up for herself, which led to an increased aggression from the leader.
Your compliance gave the leader a sense of control, which appeased him. However, your friend’s resistance threatened his authority, leading to aggression. After such an encounter, it’s valuable to reflect on what worked and what could have been done differently. This reflection helps in building resilience and better strategies for future situations.
Finding a balance between standing up for yourself and avoiding unnecessary conflict is crucial. In any threatening situation, it’s important to assess the level of threat and potential for escalation. While complying to avoid immediate danger, subtly setting boundaries could have helped. For example, agreeing to gather wood but politely declining additional tasks, signaling a willingness to help without becoming overly submissive. Maybe saying, in a calm and respectful tone, something like: “Sure, I can help with that,” followed by “I need to head back soon,” could have balanced cooperation with gentle assertion..?
anita
December 20, 2024 at 8:52 am #440897Jana 🪷ParticipantHello Anita,
who knows… 🙂
I think that this is something we cannot be always prepared for. We cannot know how the person will act. People are unpredictable.
☀️ 🪷
December 20, 2024 at 10:41 am #440899PeterParticipantHi Jana
I am not sure if I understand this: “… using the adrenaline boost from fear, anger and hate, which I then take on as ‘being’ – I am angry, I am hate… and compassion nowhere to be found. When ‘I am anger and or hate’ getting even is the most likely driving force behind my actions.” Can you elaborate on it and maybe write some specific situations?
First I will say anger is a valid emotion often calling us to pay attention and take actions. The question is what energy feeds that anger? Compassion, Love, Fear, Hate…
Its difficult to explain personal observation…
Take Scenario A: where you noticed a injustice, to yourself or others, and you need to decide to act or not act.
Scenario A-1: your at a content place in your life and taking action is going to get messy. You see the injustice with compassion and it breaks your heart. You know that its a wrong that needs to be righted… do you act?
Scenario A-2: Your at a content place in your life and taking action is going to get messy. You see the injustice with compassion and it breaks your heart. You know that its a wrong that needs to be righted.. and you feel angry about it… do you act.
In which Scenario are you more likely to act A-1 or A-2 and why?
My observation is that for most people to act they need the energy from anger to act. This is not a statement of good or bad, right or wrong, it just is. And its my observation that the danger is that we begin to feed that anger with energy of ego righteousness and when it get really bad hate which history provides many examples.
There is another trap of most wisdom traditions and that is the practice as a escape from engagement with life messiness.
The Buddha suggestion is to avoid both those traps is to always act from a place of compassion. Its easy to sit by the side of a lake and be still. Much more difficult to take that stillness with you as you engage with Life, but that is what the wisdom traditions call on us to do.
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