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Building lifelong relationships- need to change an unknown pattern

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  • #426976
    Chloe
    Participant

    Hello!

    I’m trying to make a change in life but I’m having trouble determining the root cause of my issue.  I want to build lifelong relationships, I don’t want to be elderly and completely alone, but I seem to be getting in the way of myself somehow.

    I’m a 40f who is a single mom after divorce over a decade ago.  My family of origin is not close with me- they only talk with me when they are asking for money.  When I don’t have money to give or choose not to, they don’t speak with me.  I try to stay connected to my parents as they are getting older and won’t be around forever and they say they love me and my teen child but there is no closeness or belonging there.

    So I’ve worked hard at my other relationships.  I choose not to seek a romantic partner.  I’ll build friendships that seem reciprocal and those will last for a few years but then they ghost me, drift away with no explanation, or flat out create a narrative and have zero discussion and end the friendship.

    A good friend just ended our friendship in the fall.  I had asked for more consistent communication (things had happened in life and her going 3 weeks without answering messages or calls was actually worrying me), and she determined I was passively aggressively saying she wasn’t ever going to be good enough and she stopped talking to me altogether.

    This type of thing has happened several times over the years, with some people just deliberately choosing to drift back into being acquaintances (going from vacations and holidays together to me not getting invited and them declining invites, all of a sudden no longer available to meet for coffee ever,  now to saying hi and fake pleasantries at church, but when I ask what happened to change everything the answer is always ” nothing!  Stop seeing things that aren’t there!”).

    I am the common denominator in these stories and I know I need to make changes somehow to have long lasting relationships, but I’m not certain what is going wrong!  One thing I’ve noticed is that if I have a time of need or if I ask for something in the relationship, like more consistent communication, that’s damaging to the relationship. I try to keep a diverse social circle so I’m not relying on only one or two people too heavily.  I enjoy my me time quite a bit.  I understand that couples a lot of times only want to hang out with couples.  But I want friends that I can do life with for a long time, not just wonder if today is the day they decide to just be done with me.  Or wonder ” if I ask for what I need will they leave?”  I love joining my friends on things that make them happy- but I always have to do my stuff alone.  People identify me as fun, so supportive, a good communicator, a good friend.   A good friend often says one thing she loves about me is that I’m “low maintenance” and I don’t put obligations on people- which is cool and all but what if sometimes I do need someone to rely on?  At this point when I do have a need I’m terrified to ask because I don’t want to lose someone else, and I don’t want to meet new people because I’m tired of letting people in for them to make themselves at home in my life for a while and then just leave.

    I’m sure I’m not the only one dealing with this type of situation and I’d love to have a conversation about what others have identified and tips for building community that both gives and takes.  I think a big part of this is that the world is very hard right now for everyone.  But my pattern is still a pattern I need to figure out how to change if I’m going to make it into my 60s without being completely isolated.

    Thank you!

     

    #426991
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Chloe:

    Welcome back to the forums! We communicated back in December 2016, just over seven years ago, and on the same topic. Hopefully our communication back then will help me in my reply today.

    You shared today (I will be adding the boldface feature to all the quotes): “I’m trying to make a change in life but I’m having trouble determining the root cause of my issue.  I want to build lifelong relationships, I don’t want to be elderly and completely alone, but I seem to be getting in the way of myself somehow“-

    – (1)  You stated your goal: to build lifelong relationships (friendships, not romantic relationships), and to not be completely alone at old age, (2) You suggested that you may be getting in your own way of accomplishing this goal, (3) you want to figure out how you may be getting in your own way/ what is the root cause of you not having lifelong relationships.

    About your family of origin, you shared today: “My family of origin is not close with me- they only talk with me when they are asking for money.  When I don’t have money to give or choose not to, they don’t speak with me… there is no closeness or belonging there“.

    Seven years ago, you shared: “As a child, I definitely was defined by my accomplishments and successes… I was always the ‘smart’ one, the ‘good’ one. My sister was more of a wild child and was in trouble a lot, and my parent’s marriage wasn’t good most of my childhood. So in essence, in my youth invisibility was better. Attention meant you were in trouble, you did something wrong, or someone was mad at you… my family is very blue collar, and ‘love’ wasn’t really spoken of in my youth. So I probably am idolizing others, seeking some sort of parental bond that will provide me with the corrective experience of love I’ve sought since youth“.

    I want to develop the last part I boldfaced right above: how it may be that you are idolizing friends and seeking them to love you in ways you needed your parents to love you as a child, and how this seeking may be in your way of having lifelong friendships:

    “I think my difficulty is that I struggle to find people that accept both the positive, giving parts of me and the down, needy parts. People enjoy me when I am loving, positive and giving, and then turn away or become angry when I need that encouragement or help” (Dec 2016), “One thing I’ve noticed is that if I have a time of need or if I ask for something in the relationship, like more consistent communication, that’s damaging to the relationship… People identify me as fun, so supportive, a good communicator, a good friend. A good friend often says one thing she loves about me is that I’m ‘low maintenance’ and I don’t put obligations on people” (Jan 15, 2024).

    Is it possible, Chloe, that in the beginning of a friendship and during most of the time within a friendship, you behave in ways that are indeed positive, supportive and giving, which attracts people to you. But at the rare times when you do express your emotional neediness, you express such deep, unsatisfied and unresolved, decades-long neediness, that you do so in ways that are not appropriate for an adult woman in the context of an adult friendship. More like a very hurt and maybe angry child who is looking for that “corrective experience of love” which friends are not able to provide for you even if they tried, and no matter how hard they tried?

    Within the context of your original family, your role was that of the invisible, agreeable child who didn’t seek attention, “the ‘good’ one“, the tamed child, while your sister was the “wild child“. Thing is, a tamed, controlled child still has a wild side to her (a hurt side, an angry side, a demanding side), and that wild side has to show, it has to express itself. Question is: how does your wild/ untamed side show within friendships…?

    anita

     

    #426993
    Chloe
    Participant

    Hi, Anita,

    I am absolutely blown away by the depth of your response, and very thankful! Thank you for joining me in this exploration.

    You ask about how my hurt, angry, demanding side shows in my adult friendships.  That is a fair question, and I’m not sure.  As far as all outward, typical things one might see (yelling, blame, destructive behavior, etc), none of those things happen.  If my mood or inner thoughts aren’t “fit for public consumption”, I stay home until they are. I go to bed, I work on some exercises to challenge myself to a more healthy mindset.  Much of what could be residual untamed side plays out internally in my head, through negative self- thoughts, and I’ve worked hard over the years to keep that to myself.  When I was a young adult (20’s) I was more external- I would yell, be dramatic with others, etc.  Haven’t acted out in that way in many years.  For example- work has been very stressful and one day I was invited to dinner with a small group, and I declined, just saying “thanks for the invite but it’s been a hell of a day and I’m staying in. Have a blast,  I’ll catch you next time”.  and they did, and I stayed home that night and allowed myself my negative self-thoughts and went to bed early, I felt better when I woke up and put my work resiliency back on, and I did join them next time.

    I went through a good bout of therapy a while ago and during that time and since have been working on something my therapist called healing my inner child.  Having my adult self  ‘save and care for’ my inner child, so as to not be seeking that externally.  I’m proud of the work I’ve done and generally feel a whole lot healthier as a person.  I’ve come to understand that this idea sold in the movies of “found family” is much a myth, and have built much more realistic expectations around my relationships these past years.  Yet I still find that at about the 6-7 year range, my friendships fail.

    In most recent situations, I’ve let it go externally, keeping peace, but I am still internally aware that this isn’t the life I’m wanting.  With the friend who gradually distanced, I asked a couple of times, pointed out I was noticing changes, and the answer was that nothing was different, even though there were clear definable changes.   I accepted that I would not have an answer and that continuing that line of questioning would end poorly, and now we say hi in public and buy each other’s children’s fundraiser items and she will reference stuff she sees on my social media and call me by the old nickname she gave me and that’s it.  There’s no big blow up- just a clear understanding on my part that something changed she wasn’t comfortable sharing or working through with me and that’s that.  It’s confusing and uncomfortable for me but it is what it is.  In the other recent instance, when my friend expressed her thoughts that I was insinuating she wasn’t good enough, I tried to communicate clearly and supportively that my wish for more consistent communication was just that, a wish, born out of both a concern for her wellbeing and our recent situation where lack of communication almost led to missing a trip she really wanted to take (that she would have been mad at me for).  I saw it in the same vein as when she mentioned her wish that we lived closer to one another (that I can’t do anything about at this time)- us identifying things we would like or wish could or would happen, but not deal breakers if they can’t happen.  We did not see it the same way.

    I continue to work hard on healing myself as a person.  I’ve noticed a lot of positive change, especially reflecting on where I was when last I asked for feedback here.  From my point of view, I do worry that I have these relationships that are important to me and in order to keep them I need to keep my mouth shut if I have any wants or needs, and that doesn’t feel the greatest.  I am assessing for appropriateness for what I keep internal and what I share, and I’m communicating fairly compassionately and clearly.

    So what I have to wonder is this: I’ve grown up with this experience of love and belonging as only a factor of what I can give/provide/achieve/ reflect, and I’m still and likely always seeking a different, more whole kind of love, even if I don’t conciously act out that need- is it possible for me to have more lifelong connections?   And what steps can I take if I’m not sure where to go next?   And I can honestly say I enjoy my own time and space in a way I certainly didn’t back then.  But I still desire to have more than just acquaintance relationships in my life, and I want to keep the friends I have (maybe even make new ones!). I’ve watched friends and acquaintances isolate themselves and I definitely do not want to do that to myself.

    Thank you so much for your thoughts surrounding this!

    #426994
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Chloe:

    You are very welcome! You read like a person whose done a lot of healing work and who is as mentally healthy as one can be in this very troubled world of ours. Like you said, and I agree: “a big part of this is that the world is very hard right now for everyone“.

    Like you suggested back in 2016, couples do not tend to socialize with single women, so that’s a factor that’s not dependent on who you are (other than on your status as a single or divorced woman). I’ll add to it that teenagers and young adults are very motivated to connect and socialize, but older adults- significantly less, as they are busy with careers and children. So, as far as friendships go, you have these two factors operating against you.

    is it possible for me to have more lifelong connections? And what steps can I take if I’m not sure where to go next?“- I believe that it is possible for you (it’d be terrible if I expressed otherwise.. wouldn’t it). As far as where to go next.. here’s an idea that occurred to me a few days ago (before you posted, not having you in mind): if I was to volunteer, I’d volunteer to be with elderly people, to connect with them so that they don’t feel isolated (as many do).

    In your 2nd sentence, original post today, you wrote: “I want to build lifelong relationships, I don’t want to be elderly and completely alone“- neither do many people who are already elderly.. people with a lot to say, people who are often single (having been widowed) and no longer busy with raising children or with adult children going to college, getting married, etc.

    What do you think?

    anita

    #426999
    Chloe
    Participant

    Hi Anita,

    It’s interesting you bring up volunteering with elderly individuals, as I recently started helping some elderly people at my church with various things!  It started with one lady who needed raking done when she had COVID.  I’m always trying to find opportunities for my teenager to help in the community so we loaded up and went out to help, and we keep running into these types of needs.

    I am proud of the internal work I’ve done, but right now it doesn’t feel like it’s enough if I’m continuing to lose people I care about and I don’t know why.  I feel like in adult relationships people should be able to tell one another things or have requests and that be okay, it shouldn’t be friendship-ending.  But in my case, it usually is.  Do other people have this experience or is it just me?  I feel like I’m constantly walking on eggshells, and it makes me very hesitant to even want to befriend others ( and that’s an internal negative self thought type situation that I continue to work on).   I recognize that to give in to that mindset would be self-defeating and also wouldn’t build the life I’m looking to build.  I guess I currently have an “Instagram life”-  people tell me how  much they respect me for the things I do (like traveling solo, for example), but if I had a really sad day I’d have nobody to call.  Hence me seeking feedback from an internet forum.  Is this a common issue for all adults at this point, this lack of actual connection?  Are relationships as a whole more superficial these days?  I didn’t think so, people share these things with me without issue, but I don’t really know anymore.  I wonder if I’m inadvertently teaching people they can expect support from me, to the point where if I’m not available when called upon that’s offensive.  I do feel that could have been a factor in my most recent friend leaving.  But that’s not a dynamic I want to feed- I want relationships where I can attend to my own self and that be okay as well, that my health is supported.

    Me asking about the possibility of connection earlier is quite a silly question to ask, looking back- how could somebody say “nope! Hopeless!”  🙂  but I have observed close knit families and other people with successful relationships and I have wondered how much my early experiences may be affecting my current ability to healthily connect, and I’m not sure if others have been through that same kind of thought process.

    #427000
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Chloe:

    I went on a walk and thought of your thread, then came home and typed a 3rd post for you. I then found out that you submitted a 3rd post. I read it and I want to reply to it tomorrow. For now, this is what I posted to you before reading your most recent post:

    You mentioned me joining you in this exploration– if I may continue the exploration I started in my first reply today,( since you welcomed it):

    you wrote: “You ask about how my hurt, angry, demanding side shows in my adult friendships.  That is a fair question, and I’m not sure.  As far as all outward, typical things one might see (yelling, blame, destructive behavior, etc.), none of those things happen”-

    – In the quote above, did you acknowledge a hurt, angry, demanding side in the context of friends?

    And regarding atypical things one might still see: a silent anger, an accusation delivered via a look, no words, no sound.. maybe with a mild smile?

    My mother used to do those typical things you mentioned above: yelling, blaming, and destructive behavior (hitting me, breaking and tearing things), yet what appeared in my nightmares again and again was none of those typical things, only her silent face looking at me with blaming eyes and that mild smile that bore no affection.

    I digressed.  I know that you are not her.

    Exploring, bringing up possibilities that may be true to some extent, or not at all-  for you to consider..?

    anita

    #427012
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Chloe:

    First, congratulations for all your amazing healing mindset and continuous work through the years: “I am a really growth centered individual… I went through a good bout of therapy a while ago… generally feel a whole lot healthier as a person…I continue to work hard on healing myself as a person.  I’ve noticed a lot of positive change… I am assessing for appropriateness for what I keep internal and what I share, and I’m communicating fairly compassionately and clearly…I am proud of the internal work I’ve done“-

    – I am proud of you too, if I may say so!

    I re-read what you shared here and in your previous thread like a detective of sorts, looking for the answer of your question, which partly paraphrased is: with all he healing work I’ve done, why is it that none of my friendship last and “if I had a really sad day I’d have nobody to call?

    I’ll be quoting you, then typing as I think, thinking as I type: “My family of origin is not close with me… there is no closeness or belonging there… I’ve grown up with this experience of love and belonging as only a factor of what I can give/provide/achieve/ reflect, and I’m still and likely always seeking a different, more whole kind of love”-

    – there is no closeness or belonging now with your parents/ family-of-origin (you’re at around 40 years-old), but growing up you felt some closeness and belonging, only it was dependent on you GIVING and NOT RECEIVING, and on being invisible because the attention you received, when you received it, was negative: “in my youth invisibility was better. Attention meant you were in trouble, you did something wrong, or someone was mad at you”, Dec 2016)

    Fast forward, in friendships you GIVE, but when you try to receive, the friendships end (I am stating this in a simplified way). This reminds me of a scripture from the bible: “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.” (Matthew 7:7). At first, a moment ago, I thought to myself that maybe you don’t do the asking right, but then, there was nothing in your posts that indicate that there is something wrong with the way you ask.

    Next, I am thinking that the problem may not  be with you asking for what you need, or with the ways you ask for what you need, but with the receiving part: “ask, and it shall be given to you”-

    – being given attention when you were growing up was a negative experience (“Attention meant you were in trouble..”). Fast forward, let’s say you ask a friend for what you need, but when you receive it, the attention to what you requested scares you, and you reject the attention, the help…  and the friend for having her well-meaning attention being rejected.

    Or maybe before you ask, a friend has been trying to give you what she imagines that you need, but you rejected it over and over again.. before ever asking. The consequence: the friend rejects you back and the friendship ends.

    “A good friend just ended our friendship in the fall.  I had asked for more consistent communication…  and she determined I was passively aggressively saying she wasn’t ever going to be good enough and she stopped talking to me altogether”- was she saying that her efforts to help you were never going to be good enough…?

    It is a human need to feel useful and helpful. When a person is deprived from being able to help/ when a person’s efforts to help are rejected again and again, the person himself- or herself- feel rejected.  It may be that the problem is not that people end friendships with you because they are not willing to give, but because you are not willing to receive.

    “One thing I’ve noticed is that if I have a time of need or if I ask for something in the relationship, like more consistent communication, that’s damaging to the relationship”- it may be that after many times that you rejected a friend’s efforts to help (offered without you asking for it), then when you ask for something, the friend gives up on trying yet again to give you something that you will receive.

    It may be that you don’t even register a friend’s efforts to help, and reject those without being aware of doing so.

    “People identify me as fun, so supportive, a good communicator, a good friend.   A good friend often says one thing she loves about me is that I’m ‘low maintenance‘ and I don’t put obligations on people”-

    – so supportive ..but not willing to be supported? Low maintenance to the extreme, as in refusing any support vs moderation?

    I’ll stop here. Is it possible that my theory is true to you and your experience?

    anita

    #427041
    Chloe
    Participant

    Hi Anita,

    You’ve given me much to think about!  Work overtook life for a moment, but I’m happy to return to this exploration. And as for digressing- sometimes the things conversations bring to mind are brought to mind because we wonder about similarities, and that is exactly why exploring with others can be an amazing thing!

    In your first reply, you mention the atypical signs, and I believe that I do engage in these things somewhat. For instance, not surrounding my discussion with my friend about my hope that we could have more consistent communication, but earlier this summer, I did share with her my intermittent feelings of loneliness/desire for connection as situations changed- a cancelled trip with another friend (for very good reason that I understood, but was disappointed about).  I know that as I shared my disappointment, I was very clear to also share my understanding why it was happening.  And I definitely did not put pressure on my friend to “fill the gap”.  But I did share that that event might encourage me to seek more solo travel.  And I can see how my friend may have taken that as me making statements that she related to, even though I tried my best to keep it specific to the situation, understanding of how adult lives often don’t mesh well, etc.  I may struggle with how to navigate sharing of authentic thoughts (disappointment of a cancelled trip) while still supporting friendships.  I think that may be the crux of it- no matter how improved I get at communication, I still feel like sharing anything negative at all about my life, any type of dissatisfaction, I feel like that is a major roadblock in my friendships.  Yet I don’t really know how to keep up appearances with people who have longevity and depth with me.  Obviously I’m not out sharing my burdens with acquaintances, but after a certain point I hear other’s burdens and I share mine.   But either I need improvement communicating my burdens when and how appropriate, or I’m connecting with people who have difficulty hearing those, because I’m a helper and maybe I’m just finding those who need to be helped, and we never actually move beyond that dynamic.

    In your second post, you mention the potential of me not being able to accept help.  This has been a significant issue in my life, and one I’ve been working on.  I’m not sure how it plays into my most recent friend issue- you bring up her saying she was never going to be good enough.  That statement was directly related to her never communicating regularly, specifically.  There has been a significant change in her responding over the past year, and I took her statement as her telling me “I am not able to respond or interact any differently than I am right now”.  I think where I get frustrated with that is that she clearly expected me to continue to reach out in the same manner as I had been (more in line with our previous communication style), because when I had an incident with my parents that took me away from regular messaging for that week she responded very negatively, accusing me of doing it on purpose.  She never actually was able to hear and acknowledge that I was slightly absent due to my parents’ concern, she just determined her reasoning was correct and disappeared.  I think, when I look back, she was growing away from me over time, and I failed to recognize it.  I know that I do that- I’m trusting in the friendship, and others say they are too, so I see the signs of distance but I give people the benefit of the doubt, that they are busy, going through things, having typical adult space-  not working on leaving.  And then there I am, feeling a little bit like an idiot once I realize that for them, they were finished with the relationship for a while, and were just waiting for me to catch up with this information.

    I suppose this could definitely play in to my difficulty accepting support.  There are people I will more easily allow to help me- but they are people who have not then turned around and used that need for support against me.  And I admit, I’ve run into this more than a time or two- I’ll need help or support, someone will offer to provide it, but then when the time comes, they have a ton of reasons why they can’t provide it or I shouldn’t need that type of support.  And its not just the typical negotiation of what they can provide or what would work for me or scheduling or whatever (typical boundaries type stuff), it becomes a full-out “you shouldn’t need this” or “you should be able to do this alone”.  So that discourages me from asking for help or allowing it, because in the past it has turned into a reflection of my character or fitness for some people, and I really don’t have time for that and would like to avoid it whenever possible.

    I’ll pause here- there is a lot going on in my mind right now!  Thank you for meandering through this with me!

    #427048
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Chloe:

    Thank you for the note about digressing. I will feel more comfortable when digressing again.

    Earlier this summer, I did share with her my intermittent feelings of loneliness…“-

    It occurred to me when I read your original post for the first time, reading about your friend saying that you were “passively aggressively saying she wasn’t ever going to be good enough“, that she was projecting someone in her early life=> into you. Could be a passive aggressive mother who repeatedly gave her the message that she was not good enough.

    Too often when we talk to people, they don’t hear us. They hear the voices in their heads, often the voices of parents who keep talking to them via self talk. This is one reason why friendships in adulthood are difficult to start and to maintain: people “hear” people who hurt them when they (don’t) hear us, inaccurately projecting other people into us, and they react appropriately to those other people.. not to us. This was true to me too, still is, but I learned to notice my inaccurate projections and correct them, truly seeing and hearing the person in front of me.

    “I may struggle with how to navigate sharing of authentic thoughts (disappointment of a cancelled trip) while still supporting friendships.  I think that may be the crux of it- no matter how improved I get at communication, I still feel like sharing anything negative at all about my life, any type of dissatisfaction, I feel like that is a major roadblock in my friendships“-

    – I think that sharing anything negative about your life is likely to activate inaccurate projections on the part of many people who experienced lots of negativity in their childhoods, people who never learned to notice when they inaccurate project.

    “Either I need improvement communicating my burdens when and how appropriate, or I’m connecting with people who have difficulty hearing those“- people who inaccurately project (there are so many of us).

    Here is a way to help the situation, maybe: ask a friend, current or future, about their childhood experience and you will know what of what you share with them is likely to trigger their childhood negative experiences. You can ask them if they are familiar with inaccurate projections and explain to them what it is, if they don’t know.

    “when I had an incident with my parents that took me away from regular messaging for that week she responded very negatively, accusing me of doing it on purpose.  She never actually was able to hear and acknowledge that I was slightly absent due to my parents’ concern, she just determined her reasoning was correct and disappeared“-

    – I read this quote AFTER typing what I did above this quote. This quote right here has inaccurate projection written all over it. She never actually was able to hear you and your circumstances because she was hearing a parent (most likely) taking attention away from her on purpose, giving her the silent treatment perhaps. And she reacted appropriately (disappearing) to the parent and to her childhood circumstances with the parent.. not appropriately to you and to your circumstances.

    I’ve run into this more than a time or two- I’ll need help or support, someone will offer to provide it, but then when the time comes… it becomes a full-out ‘you shouldn’t need this’ or ‘you should be able to do this alone’“-

    – there are plenty of selfish people, projections or not…

    anita

    #427054
    anita
    Participant

    edit 6th paragraph: I think that sharing anything negative (or positive) about your life has the potential to activate someone’s inaccurate projections, if what you share triggers a powerful part of their personal negative/ painful childhood experience.

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