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Contemplating divorce

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  • #82241
    miranam
    Participant

    We have been married for 20 years and have a 10 y.o. together. We have been through many things together, like any couple I guess. In our marriage I am the one who leads and he is a follower. This is how we are and I think it suited us both. I think that during all these years my emotional needs were not met, at least a big part of them. He is a nice guy, a very good father, but when it comes to be a husband, a man who shows love through his actions, this is where he fails. There was a time, when our son was 3-5 y.o. I felt really emotionally abandoned, I felt very unhappy with a lot of burden on my chest. I tried to talk to him, to fix what was missing, but he was not receptive. I lacked courage to end things back then and ended up by having an affair.

    This was not fulfilling either, although I was in love with the man. When I became emotionally disconnected to my husband, he felt it and started doing things that I always wanted him to do. But I did not care, I did not love him anymore. After a long reflection, I decided to stop the affair and give my 100% to my husband and my family. Unfortunately 6 months later he discovered the affair. He was devastated, but said he forgave me. First year after was rather good, then he became disconnected and mean to me. I knew the reason and kept working on our couple. I still did not feel my needs met… But I just thought that if I am trying harder it will eventually work. Last year was rather good. I think I settled, knowing that this is how he is and even if I don’t get 100% what I want, and feel unhappy at time, he is a good person, he is loyal and loves me the way he can. A month ago I discovered he was having an emotional affair with his colleague. It just started, so they were not intimate yet. I found out he did a lot to her and was with her the way I wanted him to be with me.
    He is now begging for me to forgive him, saying he was not himself. He does not know why he did that. That he loves me and scared to lose me. He ended the relationship and gave all the access to all is accounts and phone. I am in a lot of pain and do not believe in our future together. I invested so much in our couple for the last fourth years, that I can’t handle the disappointment. He is not essentially bad or mean. I came to the realization that he is very selfish, even if he comes across as not being so. All that matters for him is to feel good. My emotions never matters. He is somehow covertly abusive. Passive-aggressive. This is why the decision to divorce is very hard for me. Should he be overtly mean and aggressive, I would not hesitate a second…

    What I know, is that I cannot be back to the live we had before I found out the affair. Some dramatic changes need to happen. And I also know he is incapable of. He wants me to accept his mistake and to resume living as we did before.

    I know it is all very confusing. I would appreciate any perspective, any advice or just a support. I feel stuck and suffer a lot.

    #82246
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear miranam:

    This is my second vote today in favor of ending a relationship but with adding a special concern, and that is about your 10 year old. His well being is VERY important. He is an innocent party to this marriage. I would focus on his well being as my highest priority, if I was his mother, that is, if I was you.

    His well being may be best served by a non- traumatizing divorce-

    his well being will definitely NOT be served by having a traumatizing separation and divorce, by fights in front of him, by you or your husband trying to make him take sides, etc. If you choose separation and divorce, I would PLAN it and follow through carefully with your child’s well being always on your mind.

    Some would tell you: stay married for the sake of the child. That is a possible resolution in some instances but is it in yours? There is a lot of dysfuntion in many household of married couples, so you don’t want that. You want as good a home enviornment for your child as possible. If such will be better once you are divorced- then go for it all the way.

    Sounds like there is nothing you can do with your husband for better communication and evolution, postive development. As long as this is so (and often it is, most often people do not change/ evolve and continue to do so on an ongoing basis)- you have to accept what is- or divorce.

    Can you divorce in a way that will not traumatize your child? Can you, as the leader you have been in this marriage, also be the leader in the divorcve? Can you set the rules and him following these rules so it is not harmful to your child?

    Tell your child the truth, not all of it, but the truth and support him with all of his feelings regarding this truth. Do not lie to him. He needs to not be ALONE in this, to not see that things are different than what you are telling him that they are. And if you stay in this marriage and you continue to suffer and the passive aggressive behavior by your husband continues- that will damage him.

    Write more if you’d like and I will respond.
    anita

    #82252
    Inky
    Participant

    Hi There,

    Is it me, or is the tone of your letter that his emotional affair was somehow worse than your actual affair? Even though your DH wasn’t “good” at the emotional stuff to you, he must have been devastated that you chose (however discreet you were) another man over him. And it was very big of him to forgive you. And him disconnecting and being a little mean afterwards is understandable!

    And now he’s giving this woman what you so desperately wanted ~ emotional connection. So yes, he IS capable of that. Could it be that after 20 years things just get boring? And I’m surprised he wants your forgiveness, and didn’t throw your old secret lover back up in your face.

    I know I’m all judge-y, but the tone of your post is like that of a parent being disappointed in a child. He is not a child. He is a grown man, your husband. Please don’t look on the internet for people to pat you on the back and say, “How dare he not fulfill your emotional needs!” but DO go to counseling together. And if that fails, wait until your child is a little older and then gracefully cast him loose to perhaps enjoy the colleague and you to possibly enjoy the man you were actually in love with.

    Inky

    #82253
    miranam
    Participant

    Thank you so much anita for your reply. I was hoping you would answer me.

    You are absolutely right. My son is my priority, this actually why I stayed in this marriage for so long. As stupid as it may sounds, I opted for my affair to have my needs met outside of my couple in order to not hurt anyone. I thought back then, that if I will get a bit of oxygen, I will be happier and stay a giving spouse and a good mother. It cannot excuse what I did, it merely explains what was in my mind.

    Of course, in case I choose the divorce, I will put all my energy to make it as not harmful as possible for my son. I don’t want to fight, I don’t wish my husband any bad. I want us to stay friends and to help each other if needed. A civilized divorce.

    Now, as I said, my son is the first factor which makes this choice difficult. Another one is the fact that my husband is not really evil. He is actually a nice guy and a good person. I think some would consider me fortunate enough. I always considered myself being a “bad guy” in our couple. I knew that a big part of my emotional needs were not met, but I felt safe, I knew he was loyal and loved me the way he could. I could cope and settle for less with him before his affair. Now I cannot push the reset button and just to adapt the way I did it before. After I have seen how creative and enthusiastic he was with her, I cannot settle anymore. Because now I know what he is capable of when he is “interested”. This makes me feel worthless.
    The advice which is often given is to communicate. In my case, I really did everything possible. I did communicate my needs. I even gave examples of what I would like him to do. And it was not that demanding, believe me. He said he will but he didn’t.
    Even now when he asks if he can be forgiven, because he feels a lot of guilt and he hurts, I tell him that it is not about forgiveness. It is about me to see what he can do for me. Because now I compare, I think this is unavoidable. I want him to show his love for me, not only through words, hugs and kisses, but through his actions. Again, he doesn’t do any bad, but any good either. He is apathetic and lacking energy, ideas and motivation as usual. He explains it by being emotionally drained with everything which did happened. He complains me being aloof when I don’t talk to him and when I start talking about what I feel, he says it drains him out… I feel I am stuck. It only works if I make a huge effort and start acting as if nothing happened. At the same time, if I do, it can work and we can spend the rest of our life together and my son will have both parents living together.
    Am I selfish? After all it is not that bad, I am not being overtly abused. And if he hurts me, I truly believe he does it unintentionally. It is so difficult to make the decision about the divorce given all that. At the same time I am dying from inside. I am not functional, I cannot concentrate on anything else. I am in a lot of pain.

    Thank you again anita for your invaluable support.

    #82259
    Anonymous
    Guest

    dear miranam:

    You wrote that when you talk to him about how you feel, he says it drains him out.And you wrote that if you act “as if nothing happened”- it is then that he respond to you best. These two statements are very telling and explain to me how it was that he was “creative and enthusiastic’ with the woman he had the emotional affair with:

    “Nothing happened” with her- no history, no prior baggage, no old feelings to talk about, no problems YET. So he was creative and enthusiastic. It is the having to deal with deep emotions that drains him. With her it was “nice and easy”- but that could only be maintained if she too is satisfied with keeping things on the surface only, nice and easy.

    The fact that he was creative and entusiastic with her is of no indication that he will be that way with you- unless you are okay with “nice and easy”- that is, if you keep a vital, living, breathing part of yourself away from the relationship with him. You then have the choice of trying to express this part of you in other relationships or… numb it. Same for any other woman who would be involved with him- keep it “nice and easy”- on the surface is the only way for him that a relationship will work.

    It will be a mistake, is my view, to think that his attitude in relationship with her could be transferred to a relationship of quality and depth with you. Such is not possible unless he evolves- an unbelievable difficult process one has to be fully motivated and committed.

    You asked if you are selfish. You are not selfish to want to be and become more fully YOU, to have a deep relationship, one that honors the life in you. You are selfish at this point only if you sacrifice the well being of your son for your own well being. The trick is that staying in this marriage is not necessariy for your son’s well being. A divorce may be helpful to him.

    I don’t think you are selfish in regard to your husband. It is his choice to have it Nice-and-Easy or not at all. It is his … selfishness to choose HIS nice-and-easy over YOUR well being. But he was always Nice-and-Easy kind of guy so it is not reasonable to expect him to change- he was like that when you met him. Now, how long do you pay for not having seen it about him, not having seen then what you needed and that it is not going to work?

    It is never fair to burry a vital part of you so to please another. What appears on the surface is often not the case. He may appear GOOD- not having had a physical affair, appearing nice and kind. You may appear BAD, the one who had the physical affair, the one who won’t play nice so to keep a marriage to a … nice guy going. Reality is often different than what it appears to be. He is not that good for continuing to be blind to you, to choose his comfort with nice-and-easy over your well being, to not see that you suffer and to not want to make real efforts to make it better. And you, well, you are the one who sacrificed way more in this marriage than he ever did, yourself.

    Back to your son, he sees and feels what is reality. When there is something wrong in the marriage, he most likely knows there is something wrong. Do you see any signs that he does? I may be wrong. A child can overcome a lot of things and not be traumatized if he is told the truth, if his perceptions are validated, if he feels he is not alone, if HIS feelings are validated.

    The part of you that your husband ignores, prefers not to see, to not attend to- you know how you suffer for it. That part of your son- do not ignore it but see it and attend to it. Otherwise your son will suffer for a long, long time. This part of him can be ignored in a two parent household and it can be attended to in a divoce kind of situation. This is what most important.

    Evaluate in what situation will you be most available to attend to what your son needs, married or divorced to his father. Do not let appearances fool you. Appearances will fool others outside your marriage but your suffering indicates clearly that you are not fooled. neither am I as I read your posts.

    Keep writing as long as you find it valuable to you.

    anita

    #82263
    miranam
    Participant

    Hi Inky,

    Never mind for sound judge-y. It is not easy to describe a 20 years log relationship in a few words. So, your opinion is very adequate and I need it too to get an objective opinion myself. I need to hear the other side opinion since my husband cannot communicate it clearly and always changes his mind.
    I will try to answer your one by one.

    I don’t really compare the affairs. I don’t believe one affair can be worst that the other. However, there are few things in his affair, which makes it very difficult for me to cope with. First of all, the affair was emotional only because she didn’t wanted. After they went out to a walk and then to a restaurant, he picked the one near to our house. He arranged for our son to stay at his friend house for the night. Then he invited her to come to see where he lives. (I was out for a business trip). He admitted he wanted to see how far things could go. So, should she accept, they would have done it in our home, probably in our bed (!). After that I don’t really care that they didn’t had a real physical intimacy. His intention was there and that is all that matters for me. Never it crossed my mind to invite my lover to my place, even though I could have done it on many occasion. For me my home was untouchable. My husband could afford to invite her to a hotel.

    You are right he was devastated and I was feeling awful for having caused him so much pain. It was so unfortunate since I ended it 6-7 months before he knew and I did it on my own. When he confronted me I told him that I feel very remorseful, that I will respect any decision he will take, but I asked him to give me a chance to show him how much I love him. And this is what I did during the past fourth years. Day after day I took care of him, I became everything he wanted. The first year was good and he even told that he realizes his part in what did happen. That he made a lot of mistakes. Second year: he felt into depression pretending it was because of his work and started taking antidepressants. I was supportive and taking care of him all that time. Few month later he became very joyful and self-confident, lots of energy and lots of aggression and frustration towards me. I suffered, but I knew I got what I deserved and coped with it, still working and trying to fix things. At some point I could not bear it anymore and I asked him if he wants to split. He said he doesn’t and stopped taking antidepressant. Third year: I started having sever panic attacks and started taking antidepressants myself just to relieve the anxiety. Few weeks later he had another depression. No matter how much I tried to be there for him, to do things for him, talk to him, he was mean and frustrated to me again. Fourth year: he started taking another antidepressants which made him feel at ease, joyful, but not aggressive. This is where things started to improve and I finally thought we can be happy together. We were doing things together, he seemed all over me, very loving and caring. This is where he’s got his affair… Does all this mean he forgave me? I think it would be more human to tell he cannot than letting me work like crazy on our happiness, being mean and aggressive with me for 3 years just to end up having an affair himself. But maybe it is just me…

    Yes, after 20 or 10 or 5 years things can get boring. However, when something bad happen to your spouse, you are supposed to be there, aren’t you? He did not met my emotional needs long before my affair. Just one example: when I my older son (1st marriage) left home because of a fight with me and didn’t show up for few weeks I was very nervous and anxious. When I asked my husband to comfort me in my pain, he only said: “what do you want me to tell you. All teenagers are like that” and resumed to watch TV. When a friend passed by he left me alone till 2 am at this difficult time when I needed him to be there. I don’t think it is too much to ask for. And I don’t think this is to be overly needy. Why then do we marry? To eat, to sleep, to pay the bills together?
    Now, when he needed the support I always gave it him. He does admit it himself. I think you are being spot one when pointing parent-kid part of my message. This is right. He always was my third son rather than a husband, a man.
    I offered counselling many times. I am more that whiling. He only says he cannot open up in front of a stranger, it is very difficult for him, that nobody knows better than him how he needs to live and that I should respect his privacy in that matter.
    Thoughts?

    #82264
    Inky
    Participant

    I think I’m seeing a pattern ~ you have a lover, and even though he doesn’t know about it, he was picking up on some energy i.e. “What is making her so happy??” and then he became interested.

    He needed “Nice and Easy”/some new energy, and he is all creative/expressive/emotional with the new girl.

    And he was more doting to you at one point ~ maybe he met her around then, and he was more loving because he needed an outlet or because of guilt.

    And I do agree that him taking her into YOUR home was a violation!! Wow! That was aggressive. She must have picked up the Clue Phone that this was wrong and wisely LEFT!

    I’m not big on ultimatums, but I would say to him, “We are obviously incapable of handling this on our own. See a counselor with me. If not, I’m calling my lawyer.” THAT will scare him! The opening up in front of strangers is a cop out. His colleague was once a stranger, after all.

    #82299
    miranam
    Participant

    Dear anita,

    It is astonishing how your writing resonates with me. As if you lived with us and witnessed our conversations.
    Yes, he is not a very deep person. Nice and easy – this is how he wants the life to be, especially when it comes to me. It has always been like that: after I got upset after he behaves poorly and want to talk to sort things out in order to make him understand what my problem is with the only wish to improve things, he shut down and stop talking to me. Then, after a while he would come to see me, to hug and to say that he is sorry. But this way the problems don’t get resolved. When I am trying to explain him what bothers me in a very-very nice way, he would get upset. “I came to apologize and you keep going on and going on”. This drives me crazy. It is like there is no way to establish an adult communication. A real childish behaviour.
    However, when it comes to his needs and his fears and his issues, he can take months to dwell on it. No problem to talk about it wherever we go and whatever we do. And I am being his psychotherapist all my life. I contributed to his raised self-esteem, to his career, providing him with many insights. Always encouraged him.
    You know it might sound extremely cynical, and I apologize for this in advance, but sometimes I think that if we are not equal in this area and I am taking all on my shoulders, why on earth we should be “equal” in other things, like affairs for example. So he thought because I did it he is entitled too. Now, the why on earth this rule of equality does not apply to the other areas of our life?
    Even now, his main argument is: “Don’t you see how hurt I am for what I have done?! I am drained, I feel devastated. I feel even worst that when I found out about your affair. Isn’t it enough for you?” Well, no, it is not. It is all about him again. I want him to take care of my pain, not exposing his pain on me again. I told him that. He says “ok, tell me what you feel”. When I start explaining, he says his affair was not real and he never loved her, all he said to her was lye and he was not himself. He refuses to take responsibility. And no responsibility – no need to make up for it somehow. No need for additional efforts. So, I need to just forgive him and live happily ever after.
    But I cannot! I know I am repeating myself, sorry about that. I need him to show every single day how remorseful he is. Not to telling me about his pain that he destroyed everything he had. This is very easy. I want him to go out of his way to show me how much he loves me. Not with hugs and kisses, but with real efforts. But as you said to make some changes requires a lot of work. It takes motivation, commitment, but also the ability, which I think he doesn’t have.
    It was difficult to hide from my son that something is going wrong. Just to add to the misery, I found out about the affair while we were on a family vacations in Florida. The vacation I planned with so much love and joy. It was the second day. Needless to mention that the vacation was spoiled and my pain was even harder. I was in shock and agonizing. We needed to take time to talk and we did not take care of our son the way we wanted to. Fortunately, we were not alone, but with my older son family, so they took care of him. So, we had no choice to tell him that we are going through some difficult period which can sometimes lead to a divorce, but we will do everything possible to save our marriage. He said it will cause him some pain, but if this decision is what best for us, then he is ok. Now, he is 10 yo and what he tells might not reflect what he feels or how he will react if this happens.
    Writing here is a real bless. I feel better. You know during these 4 years I cut all the social connections to be exclusively with my family. I use to have friends, I am an extravert and very outgoing. He didn’t like it that much. I changed my lifestyle completely. And now, I have no friends at all to talk to.

    #82300
    miranam
    Participant

    Inky,

    Yes, he will accept because of the fear of losing me. I know it for the fact. He even told me that if I insist he would go, but for him it is a torture. How can I force him then? If the person doesn’t want and do it against his will, would it help? I think for the therapy to help, both spouses need to feel motivated and open minded about it. He will just hold some more frustration and aggression towards me. And remind me few years later how much pressure I put on him and that he cannot be himself with me. Been there done that.

    #82313
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear miranam:

    reading your posts, paying attention, all my life experience, my ability to detect and trust your intelligence and your insight as expressed so well in these posts, my conclusion is no way is he going to change. His ingrained pattern is: do not examine (wife’s) concerns, just say you’re sorry. Don’t listen to her, just “make nice.” It is his way or the highway. It is you, still, who is considering his Nice & Easy way. He is not and never did consider to do it your way.

    The more you, miranam, invest in this relationship, the more of the same you will get. It is mind boggling to admit it, face it completely… you may say to yourself: I did so much, why not do a little more, maybe…

    If you choose to divorce him, you have no guarantee that you will meet a man who will be of the quality that you need. Maybe you will. Maybe you will not. But staying with him, you are SURELY not going to have the man that you need.

    You talked to your son already. You are paying attention to your son’s reaction, not taking his words as all there is. This is a good thing. Has his behavior changed since you told him? Did he know of problems before? Did he feel the tension before?

    If your son can handle it, if his feelings do get validated by you… I hope you do divorce this guy. Your husband will be okay- there will be a woman out there who will see him as this nice, sensitive man who was cheated on by that selfish woman.. you.

    The sad truth is… he doesn’t value you, only your presence in his life on his terms.

    anita

    #82326
    Inky
    Participant

    Well clearly the marriage isn’t working. A counselor might help. “What’s more painful?” you can ask him. “Going through counseling or going through the divorce process?”

    No matter what you decide, it’s pretty clear you’ve given your all.

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