Dear Isabel:

Inspired by TeaK’s excellent analytical skills, and by one of her many well-developed, organized posts (right above), I went back and re-read your 5 posts on this thread, continuing my efforts to better understand you and your situation, based on the little information that you provided. At the end of this long post, I will quote from an online article that I think will be somewhat helpful to you.

“At the start of November, I started to get really bad anxiety and I put this down to the guilt I was feeling because of what I have just mentioned… I have been fine mentally this year, it has just kind of hit me in the last few weeks” (Dec 3, 2021). “I… managed to get through the whole summer feeling just fine” (Dec 9, 2021)-

– I didn’t pay attention earlier to the following: you shared that there was some physical/sexual crossing of the lines a couple of times back in April 2021 (and maybe in May as well), but no crossing of the lines since. For six months (May-November 2021), you didn’t feel anxiety, at least not elevated anxiety. Anxiety hit you Nov 2021, and you assumed (“put this down”) that your anxiety was about the guilt you’ve been feeling.

At first (in your original post), you shared that the crossing of the lines happened twice in April: “We did not sleep together but we did cross the line a couple of times and then I stopped it…we crossed the line back in April and then the relationship was just friendship”

But six days later, you shared: “I also stopped this back in April/ May“- I am now thinking that by stopping this, and by adding May to the timeline, maybe, you were referring to more than just two times of crossing the lines. It is quite common for a person to not remember details accurately, but it is also common to minimize one’s wrongdoings, or perceived wrongdoings (even on an anonymous public forum), rearranging times and details, so to appear less guilty and receive less negative judgment from readers. I am not saying that you did indeed minimize/ lie. I am saying that it is possible. This possibility leads credence to why you believe that your husband will never forgive you, being that possibly the crossing of the lines happened multiple times over a long time.

In your original post, you wrote: “At the start of November…  I told him that I wanted to stop completely“- stop what completely, is the question: the lunches together, the text messaging… or the ongoing crossing of the lines?

In my first reply to you, I suggested that you “tell your co-worker- friend that texting, meeting for lunch and communicating in any way that goes beyond being friendly co-workers in the context of the workplace is inappropriate and will not happen again”. In your next post, you did not respond to my suggestion. You did not say something like: I have already told him that, we completely stopped all contact outside the workplace.

And now, another possibility (this is far from being a certainty, it is only a possibility): you’ve been an unhappily married woman for a long, long time. You then had an affair or almost an affair with your co-worker, an older man, perhaps a married man, and you were hoping that he will exit his marriage and that you will do the same, and that the two of you will live together. In November, you realized that your co-worker will not leave his family for you (“My Coworker is a grandad and has many children and grandchildren and it would break his family apart“). Realizing this, your anxiety shot up, and you’ve been tempted ever since to make the crossing of the lines public so that he will leave his family, a temptation that causes you even more anxiety.

“I think this situation has made me realise that I do love my husband but perhaps there is some work to do in our marriage“- having lost the hope of exiting your marriage, you state that you “do love” your husband, suggesting in this wording that earlier, you believed that you did not love your husband. Stuck still in an unhappy marriage, with no hope for an exit, your anxiety shot up and you figure: maybe there is a way to work on your marriage and make your life a bit better.

Taking a break from possibilities, here is quite a certainty, in my mind: you are happy in the context of your job (“my job which I absolutely love“), but you are not happy in your marriage, and you haven’t been happy in it for a long time.

Here is a part of a psychology today article, titled 9 warning signs of a relationship that just can’t be saved“, that I think may be helpful to you, not necessarily for the purpose of leaving your marriage, but for the purpose of maybe saving it, as it addresses some of what you shared on your thread:

“If you’ve ever been in the position of deciding whether you should separate or divorce, you know the extraordinary stress and the flood of emotions that accompany the question. Humans are generally averse to change — we prefer the known, even if it makes us unhappy, to the unknown future… Obviously, if you have a lover-in-waiting, this part is slightly easier…” (in one study), “the top reasons for divorce were growing apart (55 percent), not able to talk together (53 percent), and how the spouse handles money (40 percent), with infidelity coming in at 37 percent…. Interestingly, the broader and softer issues — growing apart, not communicating, handling money — were negatively associated with a possibility of reconciliation, and the researchers surmised that people see these as indicative of a basic lack of compatibility… Couple counseling, it appears, is a mixed bag, because most people don’t go into therapy until things have gotten terrible; it’s not unlike seeking a doctor’s help after you’re no longer able to walk, having ignored the problem for ages. This last-minute kind of counseling also, alas, may not really be about trying to fix the relationship, but going so that you can reassure yourself that you’ve tried ‘everything.’ … So, what are the signs that a relationship has passed the point of no return? Here are nine, drawn from personal experience, interviews, and research.

“1. Discussion has become impossible. There’s a total breakdown in communication, and perhaps civility. The minute you open your mouth, he or she is on the defensive…  Alternatively, stonewalling has become the norm — and one of you simply walks away. Studies show that men are most likely to stonewall, but that doesn’t mean that women don’t do it…

“2. … a helpful distinction between complaint and criticism. Let’s say you are concerned about how much money your spouse is spending… A complaint focuses on the problem at hand and is very specific; a criticism takes aim and makes it personal. So, if you say, ‘I’m concerned about money, and I think we should cut back our spending a bit,’ you are registering a complaint; on the other hand, if you say, ‘You are spending way too much on stuff as usual, trying to keep up with Joneses. You are so damn irresponsible and selfish,’ you’re criticizing. If your marriage has devolved to the point that every misstep or mistake gets called out as an example of your larger flaws…  you are deep in negative territory…

“3. You walk on eggshells or duck contact (or your partner does)… Women (and men) who grew up in toxic households are much more likely to adopt an avoidant stance because they learned to quash their feelings and tiptoe in childhood… 4. His or her familiar ways of acting now irritate you (or worse)… There’s a subtle line at which criticism… becomes contempt or disgust… It could be his table manners… (that) now drives you nuts…5. Subtle and not-so-subtle verbal abuse…  6. Your spouse isn’t the person you turn to when you’re stressed…7. You spend most of your time thinking or functioning like someone who’s single… Do you rarely, if ever, think about what were once your mutual goals…? Do you fantasize about what life would be like if you weren’t married? 8. There’s no eye or physical contact between you…  Do you remember the last time you held hands or put your arms around him or her?… Do you avoid each other?…  9. You’re no longer acting like yourself… constant worry and anxiety… Feeling trapped or stuck can wreak havoc on your sense of self and really looking at the changes in you and your behavior may be another sign that perhaps this marriage shouldn’t be saved.

“Sometimes, we spend way too much time treading and staying afloat when we really should be getting out of the water. Do seek counsel if you’re miserable and totally stuck. Talking it through with a professional can be a game-changer”. End of Article.

anita

Dear Isabel:

You are very welcome and thank you for expressing your appreciation as kindly as you did.

Reading your most recent post, I believe that you crossed the line with this man a couple of times, and I believe that the word you chose for the title of your thread, cheating- is too strong of a word. I think that the word indiscretion or carelessness is a more appropriate word. I would phrase it as time-limited carelessness, perhaps. Considering this, or similar word substitution of your choosing, can help you see your wrongdoing more realistically.

The reason you magnified your wrongdoing is because when you were a child, when you were guilty of wrongdoings- your parents magnified those wrongdoings, misrepresenting them to you as being HUGE.

You wrote regarding your time-limited carelessness: “I still feel horrific… the guilt is still eating me up… I have so much self-loathing… (I)  feel like such a bad mum.  I don’t know what is wrong with me, just wish I could pull myself out of this black hole… what I did was very wrong… overthinking this and not letting it go“- When you were a child, your parents (1) accused you of wrongs that you did not commit, (2) magnified the wrongs that you did commit, (3) did not letting it go, criticizing you harshly.

Based on your words in the quote above, this must be what you repeatedly felt, as a child and a teenager, when criticized by your parents, and when you feared their next criticism: you felt horrific, guilt was eating you up, you hated yourself, you felt like a bad girl and a bad daughter, you felt that something was wrong with you, and that you were sinking into a black hole.

Fast forward, same emotional/ mental experience as back then.

When a child is repeatedly accused by a parent for wrongs that the child didn’t do, and when a child’s real wrongdoings are magnified, the parent’s voice, which is an external voice (the “outer critic”) becomes internalized in the child’s brain, forming the “inner critic”. The inner critic is a mental representative of the critical parent, or parents, acting like they did: accusing you of wrongdoings that you didn’t do and magnifying the wrongdoings that you did.

A parent is supposed to criticize their child when the child commits a wrongdoing, but the criticism is supposed to be (1) about a real wrongdoing, (2) limited in words and time, specific to the wrongdoing, and (3) not harsh.

An example: a child, unprovoked, hits another child (a real wrongdoing). The parent should let the child know clearly and specifically what the wrongdoing is, and why it is wrong- in a calm yet strong voice. The criticism needs to not be harsh. Examples of harsh criticisms: adding unnecessary judgmental words like bad, selfish, stupid, etc., yelling at the child, making fun of the child, threatening the child, locking the child in his room, hitting the child.

You wrote about the man: “he said he didn’t understand and that he must be a selfish person because he doesn’t feel guilty… He even said he is happy with his wife and family.  This is also where I also get stuck because I can’t understand how men can separate the two and not feel guilty“- in his childhood, there was no parent/ outer-critic who told him (neither did he overhear it being told to others) that it was wrong for a boy or a man to be promiscuous. No outer critic on this matter => no inner critic on this matter=> no guilt on this matter.

“I was always accused of stuff that I hadn’t done and toughly disciplined when I made mistakes.  I remember finding some money in a purse at school and spending it on sweets, and the guilt ate me up so much“- by that time, you were repeatedly harshly criticized by your parents, and your inner critic followed suit.

Buying sweets with the money you found was an impulsive child behavior. Children are naturally impulsive, so they shouldn’t be punished for what they can’t help. Instead, they should be gently taught, over time, the concept of self-discipline. Appropriate criticism in this case would be the parent explaining to the child: I understand that you wanted to buy sweets with the money you found because I know how much you like sweets. But next time you find money in a purse, the right thing to do is to take the purse to the principal’s office and hand it to the secretary, so that the secretary can find the person to which the money belongs. Imagine that you lost your money, how would you feel? (Wait for an answer), and you would be so happy if the money was returned to you, wouldn’t you? (Wait for an answer).

In your thread, you imagine the following catastrophe to happen as a result of your time-limited carelessness (the italic feature is my addition): “if I confessed, I would ruin so many lives… it would break his family apart. I would also lose my job… He would never forgive me“. As a child, when you feared what was to happen after you did something wrong, or something that your parents would claim to be wrong, this must have been what you felt (based on your words in the quote above):  expecting your parents to never forgive you, expecting your life to be ruined, broken and lost.

“I also got caught smoking in secondary school and was told by my father that I had caused my mum to have a nervous breakdown“- I am all for discouraging a child/ teenager from smoking. I could understand your father’s harsh criticism in this case if he was gentle in his criticisms on other, way more trivial matters, but that was not the case.

“I definitely have imposter syndrome. That being said what I did was wrong but what I am feeling now is that I need to learn from this and find a way to forgive myself.  I am going to gain nothing from telling my husband other than hurting him and my daughter… I need to find a way to get out of this vicious cycle“-

– I agree that telling your husband about your… time-limited carelessness is a bad idea. To get out of this vicious cycle, it will take the intentional and patient process of forming a different inner critic than the one who is representing your parents. Your new inner critic, unlike your parents, will be logical, reasonable, understanding and kind. The stronger your new inner critic, the weaker the other one will become.

My mother is the source of my harsh, relentless and abusive inner critic. I still hear my mother’s mental rep aka (my old) inner critic. I used to feel so very wrong, all the time, it seems, with hardly a break: everything I did or didn’t do, said or failed to say, the expressions on my face… all were subject to harsh criticism. My life was truly miserable. But my new inner critic is making a big difference in my life: Sometimes I am surprised, when a thought of something I might have done wrong yesterday (however minor) feel like … not a big deal, forgivable, not worthy of overthink it…  how refreshing!

anita

Dear Isabel:

“Do you have any suggestions for how I can train my inner critic?”- I used to think that it is possible to retrain my harsh inner critic, but overtime I realized that it was as useless as if I tried…  yet again to train or change my real-life harsh outer critic (my mother). So, I figured it would make sense to form a new inner critic, one that is gentle, reasonable, understanding and kind, and give the new inner critic time and support to grow stronger and stronger until it is stronger than the old, harsh inner critic, rendering the latter mute.

“I also think my inner critic has also come from my husband as he is also very critical“- it is not possible to form a new and improved inner critic when the old, harsh inner critic has real-life supporters. If you visit with your parents and they keep criticizing you, my suggestion would be to no longer visit with them, so to not expose yourself to more of their criticism. In general, my suggestion is to keep real-life critical people out of your life.

“He is a very clean and tidy person and has high standards (which I don’t meet) he is the one who does the housework… my efforts are not good enough… he is very critical of me… my daughter has also taken after me and she is not neat and tidy, and he is critical of her. I still feel stuck, and anxiety is bad“-

– you wrote four days ago about your husband: “Truth and honesty is what he is about“. It is time to give your husband that which he is all about, truth and honesty. Truth is that he is keeping the house tidy, but he is messing up his daughter‘s mental and emotional health, causing her anxiety, the feeling that she is not good-enough, etc., which is hurting her mind, heart and life. By keeping his daughter’s mother stuck and very anxious, he is hurting his daughter further.

If he does not completely stop any and all of his criticism in regard to the house being tidy and clean, etc., then separate from him and protect your daughter and yourself from further criticism.

Does the above sound unreasonable to you: to separate from a husband because he criticizes his wife and daughter? S0me people, I imagine, would say it’s unreasonable, but if his criticism is messing up his daughter’s mental health, and yours, and he is unwilling and/ or unable to stop his criticism, then I say: it is very reasonable to separate from him.

Think of it this way, if you will: if he hit you and/ or your daughter, being physically abusive, it would be like him breaking a rock with a hammer, quick and swift. Being verbally critical/ abusive, day after day, month after month, year after year is like water breaking a rock. It is called ice wedging: water seeps into the cracks of a rock. When the water freezes, it widens the cracks until the rock breaks apart into smaller pieces. It is gradual and it takes more time than when using a hammer, but the result is just the same: a rock broken into small pieces.

Is there any way, do you think, that your husband will stop his criticisms in regard to his unreasonable standards and expectations about tidiness, cleanliness spending money, and whatever else?

anita

• This reply was modified 2 years, 4 months ago by .

Dear Isabel:

You are welcome. “In my head what I have done is worse than the way he treats me, and I guess society would also see it that way” –

-back to my imagery of a hammer vs water: Society views a hammer as hard (which it is) and water as soft. But Reality is that with enough time, water breaks rock as efficiently as a hammer. Society views physical abuse as hard, and verbal harsh and unreasonable criticism (a form of verbal abuse) as soft. But Reality is that with enough time, verbal abuse breaks a person’s spirit as efficiently as physical abuse.

You wrote about your parents: “They do however identify the faults in my husband but also see his good qualities“. Imagine this generosity extended to a cheating woman, saying something like this: it is wrong for her to cheat on her husband, but we can see that she has her good qualities, so we are not going to say anything to her about her cheating.

Not likely to happen, right? But thing is, verbal abuse is harmful to a child, and a past cheating act by a parent, if unknown to a child (and when the parent makes peace with it being in the past and not repeat it), is not harmful to a child.

When you consider good and bad, and the extent of wrongness of an act or behavior- think of the consequences of the act or behavior, how it affects your children, yourself and others. Try to not pay too much attention to societal ideas. After all, some time ago, society believed that the earth was flat.

You wrote that your mother is very anxious, and your elderly father needs care, that you don’t want to stress any of them, and that you love your husband’s parents very much: all this means that you don’t have the emotional support that you need.

“I just need to find my strength to get over this pit of the stomach feeling and awful anxiety“- I don’t remember if I mentioned it or if we discussed it: did you consider counseling/ psychotherapy, so to dissolve that pit in your stomach?

anita

Dear Isabel,

you are most welcome.

As I type this, I am thinking to myself, what I did although wrong was not that bad if I reframe it. I had self control, I could have easily got carried away with my colleague and had sex with him, there were multiple times he asked me to stay at his or meet him in a hotel all of which I declined.

Absolutely – you had enough self-control and stopped it from going too far. You resisted his advancements, even though you liked him a lot and he was tempting you. You should congratulate yourself for having the resolve and the self-control to draw the line and say No.

I think the problem for me is that I have built this up some much and told a story to myself that I am such a bad person and I am going to lose everything because of this, in fact, although it was wrong I was looking for comfort at the time and I found it in someone who had respect for me and saw the good in me – does that make sense?

It makes a lot of sense. You said earlier that your husband is very controlling and that it was hard to spend so much time with him during lockdown. I can imagine you were craving for some positive attention – something different than his frequent criticism and control. Your colleague, who is also your boss (an authority figure whom you respect and admire) showed you respect and kindness, which is what you have been craving for so long.

No wonder this made you feel appreciated and valued, and you felt good about yourself. Perhaps you haven’t felt so good about yourself in a very long time! Because spending such a long time with your husband, in lockdown, most probably didn’t do you good (I guess after being in lock down it was nice to get attention from someone else… This on top of having to homeschool and be at home under one roof was getting too much.)

I think the problem for me is that I have built this up some much and told a story to myself that I am such a bad person and I am going to lose everything

Yes, you have been telling yourself that you are a bad person, when it is not true at all. I hope you see the reality – that you are not a bad person but that you have been brought up to believe that about yourself. You are a good person, who just wants to be loved and respected, who wants to be treated with kindness, not with criticism and judgment. This is a legitimate need, which we all have. The little Isabel needs love and kindness from you. It’s the same love and kindness that you, the adult Isabel, needed from your colleague…

Try to give yourself love and kindness. When you hear that harsh critical voice telling you that you are a bad person, tell it to STOP! And then embrace the little Isabel and tell her you love her very much and that she hasn’t done anything wrong.

If you aren’t able to be that voice of loving kindness to yourself, try to find a therapist who embodies the qualities of love and kindness – preferably a woman, who is a soft, motherly type, who will listen to you and accept you without judgment. You need a non-judgmental listening ear, which friends cannot always give you (and you wouldn’t want to confide in them necessarily).

I have booked a doctor’s appointment for my anxiety to see if there is something they can do to help, I had a bad night last night and work up having a panic attack and palpitations.

Good that you’ve booked an appointment! If the therapist is a compassionate type, who can provide you with kindness and lots of understanding, I think that would be really helpful.

Dear Isabel:

You are welcome and feel free to post anytime you want to. I wanted to add something that I had in mind ever since I submitted my Dec 11 long post to you. It’s in regard to the imposter syndrome that you mentioned (“I definitely have imposter syndrome”).

A false, untrue core belief was formed in you as a result of this: “I was always accused of stuff that I hadn’t done and toughly disciplined when I made mistakes.  I remember finding some money in a purse at school and spending it on sweets…”. The untrue core belief is that you are a bad person (“I am such a bad person”). This untrue core belief carried from your childhood to your adulthood.

And so (correct me if I am wrong): whenever you feel like a good person, whenever you catch yourself/notice that you are doing something nice and loving for people, and feeling good about it, you think something like this: wait, wait…I am not a good person, I must be faking it!

One more thing in regard to what you wrote today regarding the work colleague: “I was looking for comfort at the time and I found it in someone who had respect for me and saw the good in me… I did feel amazing I had a skip in my step I was buzzing at life“- reading this made me think/ feel that your husband does not respect you enough, that he respects you very conditionally perhaps, very limitedly, and that he does not adequately see you as a good person. And because of this lack, this suffocation (in addition to the lockdown), when you felt respected and being seen as a good person by another man, it felt like a breath of fresh air, skipping and buzzing in new-found air!

anita

Isabel,

I have massive respect from him, he is actually the CEO of the company so I think it is more the attraction of ‘man in power’ .

Yeah, some old geezer sleezing on his younger married employees sounds very respectable. I can see the attraction.

Pre Covid there were rumours he was up to this kind of stuff with other employees.

Why didn’t you report this to human resources? You’re actively helping to enable his behavior and create a hostile workplace for all the other women have to work with this dirtbag. Now that he knows there are no consequences for this he’ll just keep right trying with other employees.

That being said what I did was wrong but what I am feeling now is that I need to learn from this and find a way to forgive myself. I am going to gain nothing from telling my husband other than hurting him and my daughter. I think as well when my anxiety manifest I always look to attach it to something. I need to find a way to get out of this vicious cycle.

I guarantee your boss is going to be bragging to all the other male co-workers about what the two of you did (“got another one hehehe”) and at the next work function where your husband shows up they’ll all have smirks on their faces while shaking his hand. You’ve made your husband into a laughing stock. If you’re not going to leave your husband, at the very least you should quit your job to save him the embarrassment.

Also, you realize your boss was setting you up for this right? That’s why he choose you to come into the office in the first place, he was just trying to sleep with you. All the flirting and gradual transition to friendliness, it didn’t all happen naturally, it was all pre-planned, like you said, with all the other women he’s told the exact same lies and used the exact same lines on. You were duped.