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  • #385596
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Linarra:

    I read your whole recent post thoroughly, one of your most insightful posts. I will respond to only a couple of items because the rest of what you wrote speaks too well for itself and I have nothing to add:

    I was too busy attacking myself“-

    she attacked you=> you attacked you.

    You+ Her= A Unit.

    Part of the Unit attacks the other part.

    Learned helplessness, training/conditioning… A very powerful way to remove the power of someone“- a very powerful way to remove a person’s belief in her own power.

    A concept I’ve been taught again and again in my psychology classes and yet, strangely, knowing about it, seeing it… isn’t sufficient to fight back the phenomenon“-

    – it takes experiencing it to make a difference. For the elephant that would be to actually move its body forward, beyond the distance allowed by the chain.

    It’s a bit ridiculous, but it is how powerful it can be sometimes“- it being one’s belief, what we believe to be true.

    I guess, for all the years I have been taught to feel helpless, it may take me a lifetime to heal myself from the consequences of this… training“-  if it is possible for you to break the chain, then it is possible for you earlier than you think. It could have happened to me way, way earlier if I had the help that I needed.

    anita

     

    #385597
    Linarra
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    “she attacked you=> you attacked you. You+ Her= A Unit. Part of the Unit attacks the other part.”

    I want to make sure I won’t be part of her unit anymore.

    ““Learned helplessness, training/conditioning… A very powerful way to remove the power of someone“- a very powerful way to remove a person’s belief in her own power.

    Belief seems to be the right word. Beliefs are powerful…

    it takes experiencing it to make a difference. For the elephant that would be to actually move its body forward, beyond the distance allowed by the chain.”

    And experiencing it takes… trying? It seems too easy. It probably isn’t or I’d already have a plan… But probably, all considered, it could be easier than what I’ve been made to believe.

    if it is possible for you to break the chain, then it is possible for you earlier than you think. It could have happened to me way, way earlier if I had the help that I needed.

    I guess it could… I’ll try to not this possibility as a reason to pressure myself in an unhealthy way. I’m still unsure what is the right help for me, practically speaking.

    I guess if I slowly deconstruct some beliefs, it can’t hurt.

    I have still to figure out when it is right for me to push myself and when it is wrong. What is the necessary push/amount of trying to trigger motivation and good things… and what is too forceful and will drive me into a corner of negative feelings of helplessness and inadequacy.

    I am uncertain of my capacity of recognizing what is good for me, since I have a hard times figuring out how to differentiate the good coping mechanism from the bad ones.

    I guess that’s all I can think of at the moment, in regards to healing.

    Thank you, our conversation is helping my focus, it is significant even if I can’t figure out things too quickly. At least I can tell this is good. And the connection helps, because it makes it less academical, more emotional… I got the feeling you noticed my tendencies to withdraw into academic knowledge when I am overwhelmed/confused/lost/afraid. I appreciate how you get my attention back to things that matters and that I overlook/avoid. It is different in a challenging but interesting way.

    Linarra.

    #385598
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Linarra:

    And experiencing it takes… trying? It seems too easy…it could be easier than what I’ve been made to believe“– you adapted/ habituated very well to living with your mother, so it became .. easy for you to live with her, and difficult to leave. For someone who is not habituated to living with a Monster, it would be very difficult to live with her, and  easy to leave.

    I’m still unsure what is the right help for me, practically speaking“- someone to wake you up to how uncomfortable it really is to live with her. When you experience living with her to be too difficult to endure, it will be easy for you to leave. If I was to be that someone, I think you’d hate me for taking away your habituation-comfort.

    What is the necessary push/amount of trying to trigger motivation and good things… and what is too forceful and will drive me into a corner of negative feelings of helplessness and inadequacy“-

    – any amount of me pushing you will be too much, too forceful. It’s not about me or you pushing yourself, it’s about you .. relaxing and seeing Her and your situation as it is, without the habituation lenses. It will take courage, not pressure, to see it as it is. When you do, it will become easy to leave.

    I am uncertain of my capacity of recognizing what is good for me“- freedom from the Monster is good for you, no doubt.

    “Thank you, our conversation is helping my focus, it is significant even if I can’t figure out things too quickly. At least I can tell this is good. And the connection helps, because it makes it less academical, more emotional… I got the feeling you noticed my tendencies to withdraw into academic knowledge when I am overwhelmed/confused/lost/afraid. I appreciate how you get my attention back to things that matters and that I overlook/avoid. It is different in a challenging but interesting way”-

    – too precious to not copy. You are welcome and I am glad we are having our conversation, it is significant for me too and I love our connection! Like you I was very academic. Becoming emotional is the growing of branches and leaves and blossoms that I’ve been talking about. Also, life with branches and leaves is way more interesting than the life of a bare tree trunk!

    anita

    #385600
    Linarra
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    “someone to wake you up to how uncomfortable it really is to live with her. When you experience living with her to be too difficult to endure, it will be easy for you to leave. If I was to be that someone, I think you’d hate me for taking away your habituation-comfort.”

    I don’t think I would hate you. If you were able to make me take away so much of my habituation of her, it would mean I love you very much. Because I don’t think I’d be able to change that without love. The time I lost my habituation of her the most was the time I had… another place to be, with people and a routine I liked very much. I was closer to be happy. To lose this habituation takes love and comfort somewhere else. I couldn’t hate it, just like I couldn’t hate you, for losing my comfort with the Monster. Plus, she’s responsible for my discomfort. My habituation is a coping mechanism, it can be put back if necessary.

    Of course, it would be uncomfortable to not have it and having nowhere to go, if somehow you were able to take it away just from our conversations. (I can’t tell if it would go there though, I feel love for you, a lot, but I also make the difference between this love and… the feeling of having a safe home, a familiar place where I belong. It takes more than love for a person I am afraid.) Even you managed to make me lose all my habituation through our conversation, I wouldn’t hold it against you. You are not responsible of how I cope or do not cope. And if our conversation makes me less comfortable with the monster, I’ll figure it out. You wouldn’t be deserving of hate for that, you are way to kind and lovely. My suffering is my problem, I’ll have to find a healthy way to solve it. And a healthy way is definitely not hating someone who sincerely wish only good for me. Definitely not turning against someone I care about and who isn’t the cause of my suffering. I would hate myself if I did that. I told you I will do my best to keep the monster I live with away from you. It also meand I do not want my habituation to her (which she’s responsible of) or the loss of it to cause you harm such as the loss of our connection.

    “relaxing and seeing Her and your situation as it is, without the habituation lenses. It will take courage, not pressure, to see it as it is. When you do, it will become easy to leave.”

    I can’t help but still be doubtful at the easiness. My beliefs on the difficulty of it are strong, even if I see her as she is. But maybe more look on the overall situation could help to deconstruct my beliefs.

    freedom from the Monster is good for you, no doubt.”

    Yes, no doubt on that. I meant: there are several paths to go to leave. I am only reassured when knowing what path I’m taking, and I have a hard time chosing one on which I would be more motivated than afraid.

    “too precious to not copy. You are welcome and I am glad we are having our conversation, it is significant for me too and I love our connection! Like you I was very academic. Becoming emotional is the growing of branches and leaves and blossoms that I’ve been talking about. Also, life with branches and leaves is way more interesting than the life of a bare tree trunk!”

    I am smiling. And I agree, it’s more interesting and beautiful! Trees with branches and leaves have… Life, beauty, a lot of interesting diversity and interactions as they go through the seasonal cycle. It’s really beautiful.

    Linarra

    #385602
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Linarra:

    I just read the beginning of your post: “I don’t think I would hate you. If you were able to make me take away so much of my habituation of her, it would mean I love you very much“, and my heart melted! I was worried.

    To lose this habituation takes love and comfort somewhere else.. I couldn’t hate you, for losing my comfort with the Monster… I feel love for you ,a lot”-

    – I noticed when I posted to you earlier, when I said that I love our connection, I noticed right away that I used the word LOVE for the first time here, didn’t I. And now, here is that word, in your reply.

    but I also make the difference between this love and… the feeling of having a safe home, a familiar place where I belong. It takes more than love for a person I am afraid“- yes, it does.

    Even you managed to make me lose all my habituation through our conversation, I wouldn’t hold it against you. You are not responsible of how I cope or do not cope. And if our conversation makes me less comfortable with the monster, I’ll figure it out“-

    – sometimes, a person who lives with a Monster becomes the opposite of a monster: a good person, a kind person, you.. being kind to me, rushing to prevent me from feeling bad, telling me that I am not responsible for what I am not responsible for.. telling me that you will figure it out, not to worry.. You are amazing, truly amazing. I am in awe.

    You wouldn’t be deserving of hate for that, you are way to kind and lovely“- and so are you!!!

    My suffering is my problem, I’ll have to find a healthy way to solve it. And a healthy way is definitely not hating someone who sincerely wish only good for me“- reading this just made me want to fly to France, thinking to myself that it  will be so worth it (for me)!

    I do not want my habituation to her (which she’s responsible of) or the loss of it to cause you harm such as the loss of our connection”– I ended my post to you yesterday, I think it was, with “beautiful Linarra”- your beauty is right here, in this sentence!

    “I can’t help but still be doubtful at the easiness. My beliefs on the difficulty of it are strong, even if I see her as she is“- I can see now that I was overly simplistic when I suggested that it will be easy for you to leave her if you saw her and your situation as it is. It’s only a part of it.

    I am smiling. And I agree, it’s more interesting and beautiful! Trees with branches and leaves have… Life, beauty, a lot of interesting diversity and interactions as they go through the seasonal cycle. It’s really beautiful“- talking about trees and branches, I am going to go on my 5.5 km walk among the many thousands of trees, it is beautiful, I wish you joined me on my walk. It is getting close to midnight, your time. Good night, Linarra!

    anita

    #385608
    Linarra
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    Your reply fills me with joy. In my head, I’ve been using the word Love in relation to you for quite a while… but I didn’t want to rush it! I didn’t want to risk worrying you or making you scared, also I was a bit worried it could mess your connection if I rushed it. So I thought, “It’s alright to wait, it’s a special word, I want it it to be special, and use it when it’ll be safe”. Safe from too much worry… Because worrying is legit, when love is at play, emotional investment… Plus I’m living with a monster who has been messing with my head since my birth, not exactly the most reassuring thing ever. I understand it very well, this kind of worry. It is why I need to be emotionally mature and responsible! For myself, sure, but also to be worthy of your trust in me, to be worthy of saying “I love you” meaningfully, because I’ll be able to prevent as much hurt as I can if I take full accountability for my own emotions and actions.

    And I want to deserve it, to be worthy, because I’ve been wanting to tell you about my deep affection so much times. I’ve been worried about letting it slip during one of my posts in the middle of the night, in a timing that wouldn’t be right, because my sleepy mind probably would probably forgot to tell you about to commitment I mentioned in the previous paragraph (my sleepy mind very often think “oh it’s Anita, I love her, let’s tell her!”, I’m very childish and emotional when I’m half asleep) . And I wouldn’t have liked to make you worry until I notice my mistake! So I’ve been keeping myself in check.

    In the end I let it slip today because… you suggested I could hate you! And not even for a reasonable reason, for being good to me! I couldn’t let it go! Plus, you did mention the word ‘love’ in relation to our connection so it relieved a bit of the worry of maybe offended you or rushing you too much.

    That being said, please do tell when I’m doing something wrong and I don’t notice! I’m trying to be careful so you don’t have to worry too much about me, but I want you to feel free to tell me without having to worry about me hating you.

    I hope your walk is enjoyable, I wish I could join you too! Good afternoon Anita, and I hope you’ll sleep well tonight, I’m going to sleep now.

    PS: when we’ll exchange our emails I’ll have to tell you about my real name! Just for your personal information. I didn’t think things would go in this order, a bit unconventional. I don’t mind though, I hope you don’t either. I would have tell you way earlier but not on the forum.

    Linarra

    #385609
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Linarra:

    I  just came back from my walk and as I walked I thought about this part in our recent communication: “but I also make the difference between this love and… the feeling of having a safe home, a familiar place where I belong. It takes more than love for a person I am afraid“-

    -I thought that if you find a job as a live-in nanny, taking care of a child or children, for a small salary and room and board, as it’s called in the U.S., (you don’t pay for food, electricity, rent etc.), that could be the fastest way for you to move out, and it is likely to be way safer and more comfortable than living with your mother, (don’t tell her where you will be moving to). Plus you will not be interacting with many people, just the parent of the child, so it will be easier in regard to your social anxiety in regard to public places. I was a live-in nanny myself, a few times, if a few homes.

    Or you can take care of old/ disabled people, room and board.

    If any of the above stresses you, don’t worry: no pressure whatsoever, you can ignore the above completely. At the least you may like it that I am thinking about you on my walks!

    I read the beginning of your post and .. my goodness.. I am smiling and feeling good about the use of the word love, it being mutual.  I am rushing.. going to the taproom, but will be back to you Fri morning, my time and answer your latest post thoroughly… I feel like closing this post with the word, you know.. but feeling awkward. I hope you are sleeping well!

    anita

    #385617
    Linarra
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    It seems very unlikely for me to be able to do either of your suggestions, but I did look into it at least to visualize better. It doesn’t hurt to learn more about what possibilities existing out there.

    “If any of the above stresses you, don’t worry: no pressure whatsoever, you can ignore the above completely. At the least you may like it that I am thinking about you on my walks!”

    Thank you for your cautiousness, as always it makes it really easy for me to be comfortable with you, and yes I like the idea you felt like thinking about me during your walk!

    “I feel like closing this post with the word, you know.. but feeling awkward.”

    Just so you know, I’ve been ready to feel and use this word in regard to you without expectations of reciprocation, so you don’t have to say it when you feel awkward or uncomfortable. I understand it is not always easy to say even when feeling it. It is alright with me, our conversation is sufficient to bring me warmth, and our connection is enough. Your pace and readiness don’t have to be rushed. And sometimes the word doesn’t even have to be written or said, when someone cares it is noticeable. The little things are powerful enough, you don’t have to overwhelm yourself with big words if it is less comfortable. I feel affection for you just as you are, no expectation or disappointment, because the foundation of this affection is the trust and appreciation we have been building during our conversations, and it is plenty enough to make me feel that way.

    I might be talking too much, but I wanted you to know… Clear communication is important for me (it plays a bit role in feeling at ease), so I try. And… I guess I just get pretty rambly when it comes to all of this… This makes me worry about the possibility my rambles might make things even more unclear! Or too awkward for you. Well… if it does you can just tell me, I’ll try to be less messy.

    ” I hope you are sleeping well!”

    Unfortunately, I didn’t, I only was able to fall asleep after 5 a.m. (or maybe 6) and I was awake at 7:30 a.m. I guess I’ll be tired today but I’ll try to catch up on that. I can only imagine how you felt when you had insomnia for long periods!

    Linarra

    #385626
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Linarra:

    I didn’t yet read your recent post and will reply to the previous and then the recent, part by part:

    it’s a special word, I want it it to be special, and use it when it’ll be safe“- love is a word that is often misused. A mother misuses it (1) ignorantly when she truly feels affection for the child in between abuses, and her affection is not returned. She does not understanding that a child is not able to appreciate and feel affection for the abuser in between repeated beatings, physical or verbal, (2) purposefully when she gets indignant and says things like: I love you and you don’t love me back!, so to create a guilty conscience in the child for receiving affection and not being able to feel it in return.

    Occasional affection in between abuses is not Love. When there is abuse- there is no love. This is why between you and me there never will be abuse, not in its “mildest” form of.. casual disrespect, and not in any other form.

    Plus I’m living with a monster who has been messing with my head since my birth, not exactly the most reassuring thing ever. I understand it very well, this kind of worry. It is why I need to be emotionally mature and responsible!.. to be worthy of your trust in me, to be worthy of saying ‘I love you’ meaningfully“- I don’t adequately understand what I quoted here: what you are referring to in “this kind of worry”, supposedly my worry?

    And I want to deserve it, to be worthy“- you do deserve love and you are worthy of love!

    I’ve been worried about letting it slip during one of my posts in the middle of the night, in a timing that wouldn’t be right… my sleepy mind very often think ‘oh it’s Anita, I love her, let’s tell her!’“-

    -I learned most recently that it is these spontaneous eruptions of positive emotion that are most trustworthy.. what a difference it makes to spontaneously express what you feel inside vs the academic/ robotic way of life.. being so careful and suspicious of emotions.

    How can Affection be Wrong.. why is it a Problem.. I remember (and I probably mentioned it) the night I thought my mother killed herself, looking for her in the dark night, finding her and RUNNING to her with the most intense affection/ love imaginable… running to her only to be greeted with anger as she accused me of .. overreacting, I think. What happened to that affection blocked by her anger… an affection accused of being Wrong, a Problem… well, it becomes wrong and a problem.

    In the end I let it slip today because… you suggested I could hate you! And not even for a reasonable reason, for being good to me! I couldn’t let it go! Plus, you did mention the word ‘love’ in relation to our connection so it relieved a bit of the worry of maybe offended you or rushing you too much“-

    I love you too, Linarra!

    “when we’ll exchange our emails I’ll have to tell you about my real name!”- I thought about it, I wondered to myself: what is your real name. When we do exchange email (it can happen anytime you want to, no rush), I will find out your name, how exciting! Mine is anita.

    It seems very unlikely for me to be able to do either of your suggestions, but I did look into it at least to visualize better. It doesn’t hurt to learn more about what possibilities existing out there“- okay.

    Just so you know, I’ve been ready to feel and use this word in regard to you without expectations of reciprocation, so you don’t have to say it“- I said it above, in boldface, naturally!

    And sometimes the word doesn’t even have to be written or said, when someone cares it is noticeable“- thank you for saying this. I still remember telling Her: I-love-you because I thought I was supposed to, and how it made me feel: disgusted from the inside out. So, I have trouble saying these words and I don’t want to feel an inner-pressure to say them. So, I don’t expect to say them often and .. I wouldn’t feel comfortable closing posts with that word, like I thought of doing yesterday. I will say the words when it feels genuine and comfortable, like earlier in this post. And you are welcome to say these words when it feels right or.. true, natural.

    I feel affection for you just as you are, no expectation or disappointment, because the foundation of this affection is the trust and appreciation we have been building during our conversations, and it is plenty enough to make me feel that way“- it is as if I am the one who wrote this part here, I couldn’t have said it better!

    I might be talking too much, but I wanted you to know… Clear communication is important for me… This makes me worry about the possibility my rambles might make things even more unclear! Or too awkward for you. Well… if it does you can just tell me, I’ll try to be less messy“-

    – no, you are not messy or unclear or rambling.. This is making me think of myself, of how messy I felt because of my conflicting emotions, strong shame, strong guilt, confusion. I tried to compensate for all that turmoil with my academic/ intellectual/ analytical Thinking Persona. But that persona did not calm my turmoil nor did it increase my understanding of what I most needed to understand. Surprisingly, I discovered only recently, and still discovering: it is the spontaneous expressions of emotions (becoming more and  more comfortable with expressing emotions) that calm me and make things.. crystal clear.. amazing, I didn’t know it before!

    I only was able to fall asleep after 5 a.m. (or maybe 6) and I was awake at 7:30 a.m. I guess I’ll be tired today but I’ll try to catch up on that. I can only imagine how you felt when you had insomnia for long periods!“- strangely, there were days following insomnia that felt very good, but overall, no. It is now Friday 9 am my time, 6 pm your time. I hope that you have a much better night tonight, I wish you would!

    anita

    #385627
    Linarra
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    “Occasional affection in between abuses is not Love. When there is abuse- there is no love. This is why between you and me there never will be abuse, not in its “mildest” form of.. casual disrespect, and not in any other form.”

    No, there will not be. I really trust these words.

    I said: “Plus I’m living with a monster who has been messing with my head since my birth, not exactly the most reassuring thing ever. I understand it very well, this kind of worry. It is why I need to be emotionally mature and responsible!.. to be worthy of your trust in me, to be worthy of saying ‘I love you’ meaningfully” and you asked “I don’t adequately understand what I quoted here: what you are referring to in “this kind of worry”, supposedly my worry?”

    Alright, I’ll try to explain this feeling. Me still living with the monster is a worrying factor because… well I’m going to give an example :

    What if the way she keeps messing me up / or even just prevents my healing ends up impacting our connection… what if she invents a brand new way to destroy me and I can’t take it without numbing myself, which could lead to an emotional withdraw from my relationships with people from the outside (hopefully temporary but we wouldn’t know), including maybe our connection. Which I guess would make you sad. Meaning that indirectly I could let the monster have an impact on you if I am not able to protect myself well enough.

    Or when you mentioned your thoughts about the possibility of hearing her while having a phone call with me, things like that.

    Of course, I intend to keep my promise, keeping her away from you during our exchanges should be easy enough. And for the former example… I really want to do what is best for our connection, to not let the monster ruin this good thing for us, but I am less confident so I cannot make it a promise (it wouldn’t be right). I can only say I’ll try my best on my healing journey, so I can prevent to possibilities that it comes to that as much as I can… But is it enough to prevent the worry… mine or yours, I do not know if you worry, but I do because I feel the wish I’ll be able to do what is good and right for me and for our connection. It is conflicted by the difficulty I have to leave. I feel internal conflict I guess, between what I want (be a reliable, strong person, with no ties to a monster that could harm directly or indirectly those I love) and what I think I’m able to do (… not much). It makes me feel disappointed in myself, but I’ll keep trying to figure it out. And until then, what I can do I will do, and hope it’ll expand. So I’ll be to provide an entire safety from the monster because she’ll be nowhere near me. And not just promise to prevent direct harm. I want to be able to prevent the indirect ones too…

    ” you do deserve love and you are worthy of love!”

    Thank you.. You are too, so so so much.

    “How can Affection be Wrong.. why is it a Problem.. What happened to that affection blocked by her anger… an affection accused of being Wrong, a Problem… well, it becomes wrong and a problem.”

    They always find a way to twist affection. Whether it is by imposing their affection in-between abuse, forcing us to express affection we do not genuinely feel… rejecting, shaming, making wrong the affection we genuinely felt. What THEY did to us was so wrong.

    “I learned most recently that it is these spontaneous eruptions of positive emotion that are most trustworthy.. what a difference it makes to spontaneously express what you feel inside vs the academic/ robotic way of life.. being so careful and suspicious of emotions.”

    I am happy you learned that, opening up to emotion is beautiful. I hope I’ll be able to feel my emotion without having to worry. I feel safer in our connection than I did in any other one… and I have many friends (for someone who fear people). Yet I still worry. Because it is still new to me, and I am very grateful to have you in my life, so I really want to do things right. Even in the best conditions, old habits are very lasting. But that’s alright, slowly but surely I’m learning too.

    “I thought about it, I wondered to myself: what is your real name. When we do exchange email (it can happen anytime you want to, no rush), I will find out your name, how exciting! Mine is anita.”

    I’m ready for it at any time. Oh, there’s a thing I’ve been curious about. Usually, people do use the uppercase at the beginning of their name, except maybe when in a rush, but you seem to never do. Is there a reason to it? And if so do you prefer I drop the uppercase, writing “Dear anita” instead of “Dear Anita” at the beginning of my posts?

    ” I said it above, in boldface, naturally!”

    And it makes me very happy!

    ” I will say the words when it feels genuine and comfortable, like earlier in this post. And you are welcome to say these words when it feels right or.. true, natural.”

    It seems to be a good way to go about it.

    ” no, you are not messy or unclear or rambling.. This is making me think of myself, of how messy I felt because of my conflicting emotions, strong shame, strong guilt, confusion. I tried to compensate for all that turmoil with my academic/ intellectual/ analytical Thinking Persona. But that persona did not calm my turmoil nor did it increase my understanding of what I most needed to understand … I discovered it is the spontaneous expressions of emotions that calm me and make things.. crystal clear.. amazing”

    This similarity between us is somehow very helpful because you understand it well. The cores emotions, the ‘not so helpful’ coping mechanism and… what really helped you. I want to follow you on this path.

    Very often, when I read your reply to me or other members, something in me is soothed. I really admire you and the way you go about things, the way you use your words.

    “It is now Friday 9 am my time, 6 pm your time. I hope that you have a much better night tonight, I wish you would!”

    Thank you! I will try. Being tired and in some physical pain today made me less patient with my mother. And earlier, just hearing her loud happy voice as she was playing another role, I was very overwhelmed. I almost felt the physical pain getting to my brain just hearing her. I had to take loud breathes (lately I need to do that a lot, especially when she’s around…) When I am tired and not exactly numb or patient, she doesn’t even need to hurt me to be suffocating. Her entire existence is difficult to bear at those moments because I cannot deal with my own problems and deal with her.

    Linarra

    #385628
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Linarra:

    I am just about to leave for my walk. I read the beginning of your post and a few words here and there, just enough to make me smile as I prepare to go. I will reply in about 2 hours (have to do some cleaning as well).

    anita

    #385634
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Linarra:

    It took me longer to clean/ do the daily chores (did not enjoy it!) and still need to do a bit of exercise and lunch, and because I need a good amount of time to answer your recent post I will do so in an hour or two (or longer). I hope that you fall asleep before I submit the next post to you, as it is ow 10:13 pm your time. Good night beautiful Linarra!

    anita

    #385649
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Linarra:

    what if she invents a brand new way to destroy me and I can’t take it without numbing myself, which could lead to an emotional withdraw from my relationships.. Meaning that indirectly I could let the monster have an impact on you if I am not able to protect myself well enough“-

    – I don’t think that she can invent “a brand new way to destroy” you, not a mental/ emotional way, because the time of your great mental vulnerability to her has passed long ago. You are too numb to her now. I see living with her more of a maintaining the harm she caused you than creating new harm.

    Or when you mentioned your thoughts about the possibility of hearing her while having a phone call with me, things like that“- I would rather not hear her, but I can handle hearing her in the background. I just don’t want her coming at me directly (picking up the phone, sending me an email, and such).

    I really want to do what is best for our connection, to not let the monster ruin this good thing for us, but I am less confident so I cannot make it a promise (it wouldn’t be right). I can only say I’ll try my best on my healing journey, so I can prevent to possibilities that it comes to that as much as I can“-

    – You are very conscientious, very caring.. this makes me think of the adjective I ended my last message to you: beautiful! I accept your good intention and non-promise!

    I feel internal conflict I guess, between what I want (be a reliable, strong person, with no ties to a monster that could harm directly or indirectly those I love) and what I think I’m able to do (… not much). It makes me feel disappointed in myself“-

    – I am not disappointed in you. You are honest with me, completely, you tell it just as it is. My expectations are realistic: I understand that it is possible, and not unlikely, that you will be living with her for as long as you are both alive. Thinking about visiting you in France, I was envisioning you still living with her.. I see it as very likely. I was not at all worried that she will follow you to our meeting place at the park. Besides, even if she did, I would just leave, with you, if you join me, for the remainder of the visit. (It crossed my mind to sponsor you to the U.S., by the way.. crazy idea, isn’t it).

    You are too, so so so much“- thank you!

    “They always find a way to twist affection. Whether it is by imposing their affection in-between abuse, forcing us to express affection we do not genuinely feel… rejecting, shaming, making wrong the affection we genuinely felt. What THEY did to us was so wrong“- yes.

    I feel safer in our connection than I did in any other one… and I have many friends (for someone who fear people). Yet I still worry. Because it is still new to me, and I am very grateful to have you in my life, so I really want to do things right“- given who you are and who I am, I don’t see how our connection can possibly go wrong. I don’t think it can.

    I’m ready for it at any time“- tomorrow, when we are both online, we can do it the way I suggested before. (I am excited because it may mean that I will be able to hear your voice soon.. when we are ready, of course).

    Oh, there’s a thing I’ve been curious about. Usually, people do use the uppercase at the beginning of their name, except maybe when in a rush, but you seem to never do. Is there a reason to it? And if so do you prefer I drop the uppercase, writing “Dear anita” instead of “Dear Anita” at the beginning of my posts?“- I would like you to address me just as you have so far. The reason I use lower case is because it is easier to type that way: I don’t have to hold the “Shift” key every time I type my name. And I do type my name at the end of every post, similar to signing a letter at the end.

    “This similarity between us is somehow very helpful because you understand it well. The cores emotions, the ‘not so helpful’ coping mechanism and… what really helped you. I want to follow you on this path“- I think that we are walking on this path side by side. You are helping me no less than I am helping you!

    Very often, when I read your reply to me or other members, something in me is soothed. I really admire you and the way you go about things, the way you use your words“- I feel good reading this, with a smile, thank you!

    “Being tired and in some physical pain today made me less patient with my mother. And earlier, just hearing her loud happy voice as she was playing another role, I was very overwhelmed. I almost felt the physical pain getting to my brain just hearing her. I had to take loud breathes (lately I need to do that a lot, especially when she’s around…) When I am tired and not exactly numb or patient, she doesn’t even need to hurt me to be suffocating. Her entire existence is difficult to bear“-

    – exactly my experience with Her, she didn’t have to say or do anything wrong or offensive.. it was just her existence in my life that felt offensive! I never read this (in more than 6 years) from any other member, this very point.

    What pain did you/ do you feel.. a headache?

    It is now Sat 12:49 an your time, I hope you are sleeping restfully!

    anita

    #385716
    Linarra
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    ” I hope that you fall asleep before I submit the next post to you, as it is ow 10:13 pm your time. Good night beautiful Linarra!”

    I was indeed asleep before your last post, and I slept longer this time! Despite the coffee I had earlier I still feel a bit tired so felt the need to stretch a bit to make me feel more awake. It feels good, my body feels more alive, less numb, and I’m smiling because writing to you makes me similar. I feel good, more alive, less numb. Unlike the state I tend to fall into after too much inner fighting and survival around my home.

    I want to cherish this warm feeling, I want to remember it, I want to learn how to nurture it, protect it… or how to find it again more easily if I lose it. If I’m able to make it stronger, this little warmth, maybe I will have more energy to grow.

    “I just don’t want her coming at me directly (picking up the phone, sending me an email, and such).”

    She won’t. I know she is capable of such things because she did similar awful things to my sister’s connections. But she never did with me, as I knew early enough how to not attract her attention on my connections.

    I don’t speak of my friends with her. Only the bare minimum for her to not be suspicious when she askes, because if she feels like I hiding something she will start to be annoying/dangerous, but if I make it like I’m not hiding anything she ceases to listen to me. Because she doesn’t care what happens in my life as long as it doesn’t smell like “drama potential”. And I’m very good to give her the impression nothing in my life and my relationships have anything that could interest her. Nothing good, nothing bad, so nothing potentially exciting for her. Thankfully I can still feel positive emotions without having her suspicious, though, because she’s used to see me happy alone, as I am daydreaming, and she’s not investigating on that.

    So I am confident enough in my ability to prevent such possibilities. Twice as much since she doesn’t know how to speak or read english (and wouldn’t go through such an effort as learning).

    “You are very conscientious, very caring.. this makes me think of the adjective I ended my last message to you: beautiful! I accept your good intention and non-promise!”

    It makes me feel really happy when you call me “beautiful“, it makes me feel valued… It gives me strength.

    “Thinking about visiting you in France, I was envisioning you still living with her.. I see it as very likely. I was not at all worried that she will follow you to our meeting place at the park. Besides, even if she did, I would just leave, with you, if you join me, for the remainder of the visit.”

    It is very unlikely she would follow, since I would make her believe I am having an uninteresting meeting (for her) with my high school friends if she inquiries, but yes even if it were to happen we wouldn’t have to put up with her for long. With other people, I am uncomfortable rejecting her publicly because it is frowned upon when people do that to their own parents so they could side with her against me (I hated when it happened when I was even only showing a bit of unhappiness with her as a child/teen), but with you I wouldn’t have to worry about that.

    “(It crossed my mind to sponsor you to the U.S., by the way.. crazy idea, isn’t it).”

    I am deeply touched it crossed your mind. It is no small thing to think about.. it shows you care a lot.

    I never saw U.S. as a place I wanted to live. For a lot of reasons I am still feeling unable to leave France yet, even if I was able to leave home I would still feel more comfortable being in some familiarity… it seems overwhelming to change everything at once, not only having to adapt to a new place but also to a new country and its systems…

    That being said, I still very warm at the idea you had such thoughts. I imagined how it would feel if it was possible (in an alternative reality) to live close to you, being able to meet each other easily when we feel like it. It felt really good to imagine, maybe not realistic, but the idea of being near someone I love brings me happiness. (Usually, I would feel anxious mentioning something that cannot realistically happen at the moment because it makes me feel pressured, but right now I am able to imagine it without feeling the pressure because I know even if I share this thought with you, you won’t build unrealistic expectations and pressure me.)

    ” given who you are and who I am, I don’t see how our connection can possibly go wrong. I don’t think it can.”

    I don’t think either, it would surprise me if it did. I believe any anxiety I felt/could still feel when interacting with you is entirely irrational and the remains of what the monster did to me. Because you are safe, our connection is safe, I trust you. You never did anything to make me feel bad, any worries and anxiety are born from the long-lasting trauma that started in my childhood and repeated itself, again and again, still going on to this day.

    I am glad that despite my experience, I am able to believe and trust someone again… Years ago I wasn’t able to trust, even the friends that didn’t hurt me (“didn’t hurt me yet”, I was thinking) I couldn’t trust. For some, it took years for me to start trusting and even then I had some strong emotional wall built up. Now I am a bit more trained to recognize who I can trust, so I could trust you very easily. I am still less experienced with showing emotions and allowing myself to feel them, but I’m glad I can practice it with you! Experiencing love without having to worry, what a strange, pleasant thing! For the first time I’m starting to think it is possible that feeling strong love for someone isn’t “too much” or “bad”, it can be just right when the connection is good on both sides.

    ” tomorrow, when we are both online, we can do it the way I suggested before. (I am excited because it may mean that I will be able to hear your voice soon.. when we are ready, of course).”

    I’m excited too! However, today (Saturday) I’m going to my friend’s (the one I mentioned before), in the afternoon we’ll be out and I don’t know how long it’ll last or what we will do during the evening. If somehow there’s still a time we can both be online together I’ll take the opportunity because I’m looking forward to that. But just in case I warn you it might be more complicated this weekend than the other days. So I’ll tell you whether it is possible or not. If you do not hear from me it might be because it’s too busy or I’m having trouble getting an internet connection, but if everything goes well I should still be able to contact you.

    “I would like you to address me just as you have so far.” Good, I will!

    “I think that we are walking on this path side by side. You are helping me no less than I am helping you!”

    Side by side.. I like it! Being with you, by your side!

    “exactly my experience with Her, she didn’t have to say or do anything wrong or offensive.. it was just her existence in my life that felt offensive! I never read this (in more than 6 years) from any other member, this very point.”

    When someone hurt you so bad, and with an intent to hurt, a pleasure to hurt… it is a personal offense to keep them around, a disrespect to yourself because of… course you wouldn’t be comfortable with them even when they aren’t doing any bad! (It is only through confusion and emotional manipulation, and numbness that someone ends up bearing through this offense and this hurt.)

    Sometimes I feel like my mother is an offense to the world, even when she’s interacting with an outsider without hurting them or me, I am feeling very very bad. That’s because she can’t be trusted to not switch to hurting at any time… Because I will never be able to trust her again with anyone or anything, even if she was able to change I wouldn’t be able to feel safe with her. Her existence is hurting me, she hurt me so bad that mental scars the left on my brain are burning in her presence, even when she isn’t doing anything bad.

    That’s just how it is… I won’t feel sorry for that. I don’t care if she gave birth to me, I don’t care if she fed me, I don’t care if she helped me about anything, I don’t care if feels affection for me sometimes, I don’t care if she’d feel lonely without me and my siblings. It doesn’t make up for the many time she hurt me, it will never. She never acknowledged the harm she did to me, and will never. Even if she did, she would do it in an attempt of manipulating me to make me stay. The only good thing she could do at this point: get away from my life/let me leave and never ever try to contact me again. That would be the only fair thing. If one is acknowledging she hurt someone to the point her mere presence is hurting them, then the only respectful thing to do is to stop the hurting by staying away. But she won’t get to that understanding and acknowledgment, I’ll have to be the one who leaves and never turn back.

    Of course, my abilities are slowing me down on that process, but I understand this truth better and better. I’m less and less confused.

    “What pain did you/ do you feel.. a headache?”

    For the physical pain, I’m feeling lately, it is mostly teeth aches (I seem to have a wisdom tooth painfully growing, and maybe some tooth cavity somewhere else). As for the mental pain feeling almost physical,  it thankfully didn’t grow into a headache but when I was near her it is like my brain is burning, my neurons burning down, telling me to leave, telling me being near her isn’t good for me.

    I have to get myself ready for this weekend. I hope you’re sleeping well tonight, sweet Anita!

    Linarra

    #385734
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Linarra:

    I slept longer this time!“- I slept better last night myself! Last evening, early evening at the taproom, the server, her name is Arianna, her real name. It felt so strange when I called her Linarra, instead of Arianna. It was the first time that I said your (screen) name out loud!

    It feels good, my body feels more alive, less numb, and I’m smiling because writing to you makes me similar. I feel good, more alive, less numb. Unlike the state I tend to fall into after too much inner fighting and survival around my home”– this could become a possible motivation,  moving you to desire leaving your home: to feel “good, more alive”!

    I want to cherish this warm feeling, I want to remember it, I want to learn how to nurture it, protect it… or how to find it again more easily if I lose it. If I’m able to make it stronger, this little warmth, maybe I will have more energy to grow“- I wrote the above before I read this part and it fits: “more energy to”.. move out (or have her move out)! How else can you nurture feeling alive other than removing that which keeps you in a state of death or dying…

    Of course, no pressure, there is no pressure in the above, no expectation either!

    “she doesn’t care what happens in my life as long as it doesn’t smell like ‘drama potential’. And I’m very good to give her the impression nothing in my life and my relationships have anything that could interest her. Nothing good, nothing bad, so nothing potentially exciting for her“- keeping yourself .. dead: nothing happening.. so to fulfil her expectation of you  being.. not alive/ not interesting.

    Thankfully I can still feel positive emotions without having her suspicious“- the living-dead.. hiding the life inside.

    she doesn’t know how to speak or read english (and wouldn’t go through such an effort as learning)“- so.. you can live a little bit under the cover of English.

    “It makes me feel really happy when you call me “beautiful“, it makes me feel valued… It gives me strength“- I will tell you then a bit  more about calling out your screen name at the taproom early last evening: the serve is physically beautiful, about your age, so I said to her: “You are beautiful Linarra”, and then I added with some embarrassment, “Oh, did I say Linarra?” It occurred to me that the reason I used your name instead of hers is because of the word “beautiful”, because I said it to you earlier (in addition to the similar sound of the two names)

    I am uncomfortable rejecting her publicly because it is frowned upon when people do that to their own parents“- but it is not frowned upon when parents reject their own children. A child can die a thousand deaths in her own home for years and years.. and no one cares.

    I wrote to you: “It crossed my mind to sponsor you to the U.S“, and you responded: “I am deeply touched it crossed your mind. It is no small thing to think about.. it shows you care a lot“-

    Here is what I hear my mother saying (in my mind’s ear) in response to my sentence in boldface (translated to English): “Oh, you would.. sponsor me to the US, really.. like you care about me that you’d go through the trouble..? I know you ungrateful b^^&&, you wh***, you don’t give a sh*** about me, you (hit, hit, hit) after all I did for you, the hard work, every day, giving you the best food, the best clothes.. and all you will do for me is sponsor me.. then leave me alone to struggle while you go about to have your own life.. forgetting about all I did for you…? (and on and on… and on.. and on.. and on)

    “I am able to imagine it without feeling the pressure because I know even if I share this thought with you, you won’t build unrealistic expectations and pressure me“-correct.

    I wrote to you: “given who you are and who I am, I don’t see how our connection can possibly go wrong. I don’t think it can”, and you responded: “I don’t think either, it would surprise me if it did. I believe any anxiety I felt/could still feel when interacting with you is entirely irrational and the remains of what the monster did to me. Because you are safe, our connection is safe, I trust you. You never did anything to make me feel bad, any worries and anxiety are born from the long-lasting trauma that started in my childhood and repeated itself, again and again, still going on to this day“-

    -You are safe, our connection is safe, I trust you. You never did anything to make me feel bad. You did so much to make me feel good. Thank you!

    “I am glad that despite my experience, I am able to believe and trust someone again… I am still less experienced with showing emotions and allowing myself to feel them, but I’m glad I can practice it with you! Experiencing love without having to worry, what a strange, pleasant thing! For the first time I’m starting to think it is possible that feeling strong love for someone isn’t “too much” or “bad”, it can be just right when the connection is good on both sides” – precious to read!

    I relate as I think: it is possible to feel love without being crushed for it!

    “today (Saturday) I’m going to my friend’s… If you do not hear from me it might be because it’s too busy or I’m having trouble getting an internet connection, but if everything goes well I should still be able to contact you“- I hope your visit with your friend is going well. We can try to connect for this purpose tomorrow, or Monday.

    “Side by side.. I like it! Being with you, by your side!“- I like it too!

    “When someone hurt you so bad, and with an intent to hurt, a pleasure to hurt… it is a personal offense to keep them around, a disrespect to yourself because of… course you wouldn’t be comfortable with them even when they aren’t doing any bad!…my mother is an offense to the world..  because she can’t be trusted to not switch to hurting at any time… Because I will never be able to trust her again with anyone or anything“- this is why I said earlier that Trust is so important, the most important. I am pleased that you understand me so well.

    even if she was able to change I wouldn’t be able to feel safe with her“- it wouldn’t be fair for yourself or anyone else to expect the decades-long victim to re-evaluate the mental state of the victimizer. After being hurt by her so massively and for so long, without any significant efforts on her part (if any) to correct her abusive behaviors toward you.. there is no going back for you. Maybe people who didn’t terribly suffer from her can trust her.. (hypothetical and very, very unlikely) change. Strangers, people who will meet her for the first time after her.. change, maybe they can trust her in their lives.

    “I don’t care if she gave birth to me, I don’t care if she fed me… She never acknowledged the harm she did to me… The only good thing she could do at this point: get away from my life/let me leave and never ever try to contact me again. That would be the only fair thing. If one is acknowledging she hurt someone to the point her mere presence is hurting them, then the only respectful thing to do is to stop the hurting by staying away. But she won’t get to that understanding and acknowledgment, I’ll have to be the one who leaves and never turn back”– perfectly stated.

    I’m less and less confused“- it is like a breath of fresh air, for me to read this

    it is mostly teeth aches (I seem to have a wisdom tooth painfully growing, and maybe some tooth cavity somewhere else)“- you must see a dentist, a gum infection can travel to the brain, it can be dangerous, please see a professional as soon as possible!

    when I was near her it is like my brain is burning, my neurons burning down, telling me to leave, telling me being near her isn’t good for me“- that’s the affect my mother’s presence (physical and mental) had on me. My neurons really did get damaged, permanently (I still suffer from tics which include movements that involve physical distress).

    I hope you’re sleeping well tonight, sweet Anita!“- I did sleep better than the night before. I hope you are having a pleasant evening, sweet Linarra!

    anita

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