Dear Cali Chica:

We communicated massively in a total of 182 pages in six of the threads that you started, the first being on July 11, 2016. You wrote yesterday, Nov 8, 2021 (in an email, after a long time of no contact): “I say ‘yes mother see, I told you I wouldn’t leave you – that I wouldn’t be like those others and leave my mom and be HAPPY!! See I am still loyal.. don’t worry I’m not one of THEM happy and away from you, I’m still loyal.. As soon as something becomes good, calm, happy – the daughter subconsciously finds a way to remind herself and (subconscious mother) that in fact things are not ‘good’ so don’t worry I’m the same – I’m still suffering, I’m still ‘unlucky’ don’t worry I’m loyal to the misery – I will never leave ‘you“-

And loyal you are. In your very first post on July 11, 2016, you shared: “I dated someone for 7 years high school -through college, to about 22, first love, who was truly the perfect guy for me in every way possible – yet at that young age I let him go, due to lack of appreciation.. no true issues“- during that first relationship, you reminded yourself that indeed things are not good, and you focused on what was missing in that “perfect guy”.

You continued on that same first post: “fast forward to 2 years ago, I met my now fiance..  truly a dedicated, devoted loving guy with a heart of gold.. but in the back of my mind I would be bothered every once in a while by old thoughts of it was right… am I settling?.. here right in front of me I have a WONDERFUL man that I am not appreciating at current“- again, you kept reminding yourself that indeed things are not good, and you focused on what was missing in this dedicated, devoted, loving, wonderful guy with a heart of gold, now husband.

November 9-10, 2016, at the age of 31,  you shared: “My mom has had a tough life.. Treated really poorly..  shunned, ridiculed, and harassed .. she truly suffered… around my teens I started realizing..  I had an affinity to overanalyze, fixate, and create a lot of burden of guilt on myself…  I feel it was engrained in my whole childhood to ‘feel bad’ I always recall feeling, wow how sad my mom’s life was.. why did people do this to her?… During this time too I noticed how negative she had made me.. I felt disappointed constantly, birthdays as a teenager I found myself focusing more on ‘who wasn’t there for me’ than the celebration or party at hand… I always went along with the well of course I’m miserable – xyz happened, of course I’m sad, this person did this…When i close my eyes I think of my mom as a damaged soul, a sad and abused (so to speak) fragile puppy“.

July 27-28, 2017: “There are some days where I have an ‘aha’ moment and say – wow okay that’s why I always felt disappointed with friends in high school, or wait that’s why I always perceived it to be my fault – because I am hard wired to think of the bad, to blame myself, and to take things as a personal attack… I am wired for negativity..  for example a friend being flakey leads to anxiety and internal negativity all day… now you may say – so don’t talk to your mom.  Well, the thing is, let’s put my mom on Mars. I still have me. and because I have a propensity to think and feel this way myself – the problem still remains…  It’s like if 40 people come to your event, you fixate on the one that flaked… I guess the theme is simply focusing outward not inward, focusing on the less important things and people instead of the most valuable.  having a great abundant life, but being unable to find true happiness as the mind wanders to what is ‘not there‘”.

January 4, 2018: “why do I let others have so much power over me, even if it isn’t something they are doing that’s personal (such as my rumination over a friend who has been flaky/not as responsive).  or why can’t I do a better job of shining that light..  to my whole happy life where I have so, so much good“?

Back to today, Nov 9, 2021: I just took a walk in the cold and asked myself: why is Cali Chica still wired for negativity today, Nov 8, 2021, more than 4 years after you titled one of your threads “Wired for negativity“? And it occurred to me that although you are aware of a lot of things, you are not adequately aware of two things (1) you still believe that your mother loved you and that she loves you still, (2) you still love her back. Believing in these two things, you are still on her side, still wired for negativity.

You wrote yesterday: “So much has changed in the last 5 years yet so much is still the same..  I am at the phase where I notice that NC or not, I still have loyalty to the monster, the mother“- what is still the same is #1 and 2 above. Look at the title of this very thread that you chose to resurrect only yesterday: “Loving but toxic parents“, let’s break the title a bit: “Loving.. parents“, and since the most powerful of your parents in your life has been your mother, let’s edit the title to: Loving Mother. Fast forward since that thread, you still believe today that she loves you, and.. you love her back.

On June 19, 2019, in a post to you I wrote to you and quoted from you in regard to an inner child exercise we did: “I.. asked you: ‘Your mother loves you, she wants you to be lucky, she wants you to be happy?’ You answered: ‘Yes so very much, she dedicates her life to me“.

The part of you who still loves your mother now (the child within you, aka the inner child) loved her before you ever came up with the terms you use for her: pathological, toxic, mentally ill, Narcissistic, monster, etc. This part is not impressed and not at all affected by the terms you use for her.. or by our long communication over the years. In that same June 19, 2019 post, I quoted you saying: “I..  was a blinded saint/devotee to my mother for many years“- part of you is still blind and still a saint/ devotee to your mother.

Your love for her is like GLUE that glues your wiring to negativity ongoing.

On June 25, 2019, you wrote about your mother: “she values no one.  not me, not my sister, not my husband… it is not a human, it is a monster with no value“- part of you came with this understanding, but the child in you is not at all impressed by this understanding, still believing that her mother loves her, still loving her back.. loyal.

This brings me to myself: I still hold on to some of what my mother taught me, things that are raining on my parade of life, so to speak, making me annoyed and miserable to some extent or another, teachings like: when you (anita) give to others, you are taking away from me! This is still keeping me from being as generous and as connected to others as I would like to be. I mean, it will make me happy to be more connected to people, but I keep hearing her voice, saying that I will be betraying her if I connect to others.. so loyal to her still, I keep my distance from others.

And so, even though I did not see her since May 2012, I think it was, did not talk to her on the phone since March 2013.. I still hear her voice, I still want to please her.. still loyal. The child within me survived all of my therapy of 2011-13, all of my MASSIVE writings in these forums since May 2015…  still feeling the way she always have.

She still  NEEDS to feel that her mother loves her, that her mother wants what’s best for anita-the-child. Child-anita cannot stomach the idea that her mother does not love her, it is unacceptable! She rejects the idea.. why, of course my mother loves me. anita-the-child has to believe this because to believe otherwise, is a death sentence for a child.

And so, I am taking this opportunity, this Tuesday afternoon, to tell the child within me: it is okay to understand that she doesn’t love us, that she never did. We will not die for it.. we lived so far without her love. I want you to understand that she never loved you so that you can let go of what she taught you, so that you are no longer loyal to what she told you. Look, child-anita, if she loved you, she would have noticed you.. she would have noticed how lonely you were, how anxious.. how much you needed her, and she would have made the sincere effort to love you, if not by feeling love for you, then by behaving in ways that would have helped you. She behaved in ways that hurt you, repeatedly so, no regret.. never an apology, never an effort to .. stop hurting you.

I know that she seemed sometimes like she had love for you, but it was not a deep feeling on her part.. it was a superficial affection like for a puppy that crossed her way one day..  and her enjoyment of you…. it was like the enjoyment of eating a cake.. nothing deep, nothing lasting.

It is easier, Cali Chica, to stop loving a person when you truly understand.. deeply understand, or at least, when you are being open to truly understand that the person you loved all these years, never loved you back. It is when we keep believing that she loved us.. that we keep being invested in getting more of that (non-existent) love.. loyal to her still.. while all along, really.. there was no love on her part. The proof is in the pudding, really.. look inside yourself.. where is that alleged love of hers.. what of it is left in you.. I mean, you don’t feel loved or loving, do you.

Read above your great empathy for her, intense lasting empathy.. where is her empathy. You wrote, “I felt disappointed constantly, birthdays as a teenager I found myself focusing more on ‘who wasn’t there for me'”– your mother wasn’t there for you. “(I) rumination over a friend who has been flaky/not as responsive”- Maybe the flaky friends you repeatedly focused on, on many, many occasions- all represent your flaky mother.. who appeared to love you.. and then flaked out.

anita

• This reply was modified 3 years ago by .

Dear Cali Chica:

We’ve been communicating some on email and currently you are busy in your private life, but.. I am not as busy and so, I want to continue to develop the theme of Love which I mentioned last in my post above, and which is relevant to a thread that’s titled: “loving but toxic parents” .

Let’s look for Love in your original post of this thread posted on Nov 9, 2016: five years and three days ago, when you were 31. It starts with:  “I have a difficult time speaking bad about my parents“, and you proceeded to talk about your mother very empathetically:  “My mom has had a tough life..  she REALLY did try.. As a housewife she faced a lot of loneliness her whole life.. I always recall feeling, wow how sad my mom’s life was.. why did people do this to her?.. always feeling worried that she was lonely, or is she happy?“.

Because Empathy=Love, in the above you expressed lots of Love for your mother, love you felt for her since you were a child (“always recall feeling..”)

Continued: “it was engrained in my whole childhood to ‘feel bad’… we are fortunate enough for tons of travel, and for my mom to have the liberty to plan very wonderful vacations.. so many comments throughout about “oh no one else’s parents takes them on trips like this, you guys have no appreciation, etc.” but then the next morning say oh you know moms say that when they get angry, you can’t take it all personal.. ‘all mother’s act like this’“-

– Based on the above quote alone, I will state the obvious (as children of any age.. we ignore the obvious when it comes to our mothers): (1) When FEELING BAD is engrained in a child, the person doing the ingraining (to ingrain: to firmly fix or establish a habit, belief, or attitude in a person) is not being loving. To love is to lead the loved-one to feel good, not bad (except cautiously and limitedly when a child’s behavior needs to be corrected). By ingraining you with FEELING BAD, your mother was/ is toxic (“loving but toxic parents”, toxic: poisonous, very harmful), (2) That she repeatedly and at length expressed to her  children that she was lonely and sad and how much people have hurt her, etc.-  this is not loving, but toxic,  because a child is not equipped to handle that much sadness and sorrow. A child figuratively drowns in excess empathy for the suffering mother, and is riddled with overwhelming anxiety and deep sorrow, (3) By accusing her daughters (the two people who as children appreciated her the most in the whole wide world!) of being unappreciative of her , she created in you an I-am-a-bad-person core belief, aka guilt, a recipe for a miserable life.. toxic, not Loving, (4) That she normalized her toxic ways  by saying that all mothers say (toxic) things to their children when angry, and never correcting her toxic ways.. that too was toxic, not loving, (5) When she instructed you, her child,  the impossible: to not take your mother’s words and sentiments personally, she just… messed with you, not loving.

Back to the title of your thread: “loving but toxic parents”- it can’t be both: when you ingest a toxin/ a poison.. the poison is  not loving you and killing you… it does one thing: killing you!

Continued, Nov 9-10, 2016: “I lived with severe dread and guilt about making the wrong decisions for YEARS to the point that it took over my life…I work so hard in career and personal life, stay fit, do yoga, have great friends – but funny thing is- my fiancé mentioned it too – it always feels like there is something wrong..  I struggle from the part that its not black and white – my mom in many ways is loving, supportive, and the ‘coolest mom’ growing up”– (1) Severe dread and guilt and the feeling of there-is-always-something-wrong: these are not what love leaves behind in the loved-one, these are not the products of love, (2) There are such things that are black and white, for example, a toxic mushroom and a poisonous snake are always things to 100% avoid when you hike, (3) If some of your mother’s behaviors were truly loving at any one time, I would have read about it in our over 183 pages of communication, plus emails.. plus my massive communication with your sister here and on email.

I figure that like all children, you NEEDED to believe that your mother loved you, and so, you interpreted a smile of her, let’s say, to mean that she loved you..  interpreting her serving you with a favorite food to mean that she loved you, interpreting that her cleaning and decorating your room meant that she loved you (“my mom spent a lot of time making my room really nice for me“, June 13, 2019) etc., while her smile meant a superficial and short-lived affection, an affection not different from her affection for a stranger’s puppy she just met, and her cooking, cleaning and decorating your room.. were not things she did with your well-being in mind,  but to impress strangers and whatnot. You just happened to be there.

A child always loves her mother.. she may be cold-blooded later on in life.. but as a child, she loves her mother deeply. She needs her mother to love her back so much that she will interpret everything to mean that her mother loves her. It’s inconceivable that it is not so.  I think that part of you (that child within) still believes that she loves you, a false belief that keeps that always-something-wrong feeling ongoing, and blocks you from moving farther on, emotionally.

January 15, 2017: “She has no insight into her flaws or issues, like many ‘mothers with narcissistic personality disorder“- features of narcissistic personality disorder (DSM-5, official diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, narcopath. info): “Unwilling to empathize with the feelings, wishes, and needs of other people” – > NO EMPATHY=NO LOVE (a black and white, simple issue). Another feature: “Exploitative of others to achieve personal gain”-> EXPLOIT= NOT LOVE.

“Narcissistic personality disorder usually develops in adolescence or during early adulthood”->it happened before she became your mother, so I don’t think that she was ever truly loving to you or to your sister.. or to anyone. She only appeared loving to a child who is very, very needy to be loved.

“They tend to devalue, derogate, insult and blame others.. they may react with outbursts of rage, defiance, or by seeking revenge“-> Not Loving behaviors, making loving relationships impossible.

“Since the fragile ego of individuals with NPD is hypersensitive to perceived criticism or defeat, they are prone to feelings of shame, humiliation and worthlessness over minor or even imagined incidents”-> this means that a lot  of what she expressed to you, which led you to think “wow how sad my mom’s life was.. why did people do this to her?”– was over minor and imagined incidents.

In June 6-7, 2019, you wrote: “I get to redefine :.. What is love To ME?.. (I was)  too focused on the hate, that mother taught“, June 11, 2019: “I thought about young Cali Chica, She brought her mother a flower. mother said: oh I used to have these in India all the time – these flowers.  oh, they aren’t common in America are they. She grew up: She brought her mother her new shiny engagement ring, thinking oh yay, my mother will be so happy and proud! finally I got to the goal she wanted me to, a nice boy, and a nice engagement… mother replies: oh I too am going to get a new diamond ring…she doesn’t even look at Cali Chicas… Cali Chica then tries to say, oh you know my fiance designed this and did this – shows the small details…her mother: not a glance, not a care…Cali Chica has been showing her mother things to make her happy from a young age.  Look mother, look what I did for you, I got you a flower.  Look mother, I brought you this friend.  Look mother, I brought you this amazing family that you can be involved in (as you’ve always wanted a family of your own).  Look mother.  She didn’t look.  She spit at it, she berated it – she stomped all over it. It was all in vain“-

-clearly, you desperately loved her and.. she did not love you in return. She was your Everything, you were her Nothing.. a non-person. She was  her Center, you were… nowhere to be seen, not by her.

June 13 & 27, 2019, as part of our inner-child exercise, you wrote:  “my mom and dad always tell me I am so forgetful and absent minded.  they always say where is your mind? because I forget things a lot… my mom always has stress about cleaning and no one helps her do anything so she gets mad at us..  she doesn’t let me help her bc she says I am messy and absent minded. and then I think – ya I am – I don’t know why I am.. sometimes I’m not even that messy like just some toys – but more they get mad that I am ‘absent minded’ they always say ‘oh where is her brain!!!’“- I imagine that you tried to forget a lot of the no-love-for-Cali-Chica reality, and being berated and stomped all over. Anxious, unloved and berated, stomped all over (abused)- no wonder your mind was absent, no wonder you were not attentive and present. She blamed you for .. not being more attentive to her un-love and abuse.

On June 19, 2019, I wrote to you what you later referred to as a “masterpiece, a thesis paper”, let’s look at parts of what I wrote to you back then:  “Your mother has been extremely pathological (the word you used) way before she became a mother.. In addition to not feeling empathy for you, to attacking you for having any emotion or problem, she also gave you a lot of senseless nonsense, illogically inconsistent and contradictory information about herself, other people, the concept of luck and friendship and so much more… In your quest to please her you were doomed to relentless cognitive dissonance, a barrage of senseless nonsense, a mental torture for any human who naturally needs logical consistency.  One reason why you didn’t listen to her much as a child.. is because of that ongoing outpouring of nonsense…. Your mother was about appearances, she valued the appearances of success, from the prestige of being married to a doctor, to her home, her clothes, her jewelry, going on expensive vacations and touring the world, and maybe her favorite: having friends. Showing off her young daughters as dancers  who wear expensive clothes and who have friends/ a busy social life was part of her quest for the appearances of success. Her extreme emphasis on you and your sister having  friends was not motivated by her valuing friendship or valuing people. In all of the posts I read, I did not detect her valuing her husband, her daughters, anyone in her extended family, anyone in India or in the USA… she valued you and your sister temporarily when you made her look good, such as when you danced well at weddings or when you befriended a girl and she got to meet the girl’s parents. If a person served her purpose.. she valued that person temporarily as a means to an end… Before you cut contact with your mother, you imagined it will be a great loss to her, “the idea of losing her daughter is crippling to her.. she would likely get our whole extended family involved, maybe even end up hospitalized due to deep despair, hysteria, and psychosis related to the idea of ‘losing me’” (1/17/2018)- – none of that happened after you cut contact with her…. You wrote about your sister: “she saw much earlier on that my mom is a bad person…  I was a blinded saint/devotee to my mother.. because my mother ‘favored’ me.. I was in the dark… That to this day I remain loyal in many ways, ways I do not even see”-

-fast forward 2 years and 5 months, Nov 2021, you wrote to me on email: ” “I say ‘yes mother see, I told you I wouldn’t leave you – that I wouldn’t be like those others and leave my mom and be HAPPY!! See I am still loyal.. I’m still loyal.. I’m loyal to the misery – I will never leave ‘you’“-

My closing thoughts: leave her, Cali Chica, so that you can be a girl again (a Chica), loving and lively. Leave her because she never loved you. No matter how comforting the idea that she loved you.. if only just a little bit, this stubborn belief is keeping you away from Love and Life.

There really are such people who do not love their children, they really do exist.. accept that your mother is one of these people. So is my mother, and my life will be better if I thoroughly understand it because it is true. My mother, like yours, wasn’t capable of loving me.. seeing me as an object that makes her look good or bad, to others.. not a person. Better understand it fully and thoroughly, no make-believe, no convenient, wishful thinking.. just the Truth.

And the Truth shall set you free, to Live, to Love.

anita