Home→Forums→Relationships→Past, Present and Future_ Year Two
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May 16, 2016 at 8:33 am #104659AnonymousGuest
Dear Nan:
I thought about you yesterday, wondering how you are doing, hoping to hear from you and what a delight to get your new post. It is written with such clarity and true-to-reality that I hope you re-read it again and again any time you don’t feel this “peace within” so evident in the writing of this last post. Do come back to it- it is all here, real and clear.
You referred to yourself in your relationship with R-2 as “servant”- I used the word “slave” a few posts ago. Being submissive in a relationship is a no win situation for you and after all these years with R-2, I doubt you can change this dynamic in a relationship with him. I am glad that financially you can end this marriage, live apart as a woman that matters, worthy, equal.
There is nothing much I can write here because it is all in your post. If you re-read your own post when you need the truth to keep you focused on what you need to do, simply read your own post.
And write again anytime, Have a good flight/ visit to Minnesota. And update me about R-1’s divorce. It was postponed many times, so it may happen again, if it is possible. Be prepared.
anita
May 18, 2016 at 2:55 pm #104939NanParticipantHello again! Hope you are well!
Well, R-1 divorce is final, as of Friday the 13th. He is moving out by July 1. Getting work and living situation plans in place. An interesting thing or two….. she has requested that the divorce records be suppressed and not available in public records. After lots of thought, I am thinking that deep in her gut, she feels that if somehow I found out about his divorce through Google or whatever, we would be back together immediately. Second thing- the financial settlement is that the ex-wife will move back into the family home once R-1 moves out. So, the mother and sons can go on living their codependent/ dysfunctional lives together. She will buy out his half of the house value. It is paid for, so she can live for free in it and have her 2 unemployed 35+ sons with her, happily ever after.
R-1 knows of my pull-back on my emotions and is daily speaking with me about his next move and to secure a future with us. He is aware I will not commit until I see how he handles the future. He is still so sweet, kind, patient and adoring on the phone. He daily tells me that he knows that actions speaks louder than words, and he will never leave my side again, when we are together.
It will be fascinating to see how he handles the family and creates boundaries as to what he will tolerate or not.
I am relieved that he is finally free, and also excited and scared a little bit. What am I scared of, you think? On my impetuous side, I just want to drop and run to him. ON my logical side, wait, wait til the right time?. And when might that be? I heard a few days ago, a good friend of ours (since high school) is using a cane, and has Parkinson’s. It is slapping me in the face with mortality and when, when, when will the time be right? I have prepared by paying mortgage ahead one month, and have a stash of cash to live on, if R-2 wont leave the house, for a little while, due to his inability to function or something…so I have a plan that wont impact work too much…
When is the right time to “pull the plug”, in your opinion? I can live alone, and certainly wont jump to R-1 and live with him. We can meet up on long weekends or such. What do you think of my ideas? What should I be seeing in R-1, that would show me he has released his excess baggage in his life?
One last complication: R-2 has booked an exotic family vacation for us and son for mid August and paid all deposits. I am trying to show enthusiasm, but my little voice inside says ” Really? Are you going to be around in August? How can you ruin the family vacation?” I know there is no rush to move one, but mortality keeps whispering to me……they reside.
May 18, 2016 at 6:01 pm #104961AnonymousGuestDear Nan:
Really divorced? I tend to be pessimistic, so I was prepared for another postponement. This is a real development!
I can read from your post that you are excited, afraid, cautious, but quite excited, as in Something is Finally Happening!
As far as his adult sons, I can read your resentment toward them. But I hope to plant a seed here in regard to them: they probably didn’t have a good childhood, probably didn’t enjoy good parenting from either parent. They are probably unhappy to be unemployed and living with this or that parent. When you think of them, I hope you integrate just a bit empathy for them for this reason.
Now regarding this family vacation with R-2 and son in August: R-2 made the plans, paid for it without your knowledge?
When to pull the plug? Definitely before you walk with a cane! When to pull the plug? Yesterday! Twenty years ago!
Realistically, when to pull the plug? This is a tough one. You lived with R-2 for so long being unloved, unappreciated. You carried on like this for so long. When is it enough for you?
I will ask you this, and it is a very personal question. I don’t even know if it is very relevant. Of course, it is fine with me if you choose to not answer. Here is the question: how do you feel when you are physically intimate with R-2? Are you numb? Are you somehow attracted to him? Are you resentful… do you wait for it to be over?
I feel weird asking this. But then, it is important for me to understand you better and in considering the next move.
anita
May 19, 2016 at 6:35 am #105017NanParticipantThe invite to be physically intimate with R-2 is so mechanical and unromantic. He usually says ” You wanna take a shower tonight? or it is usually expected if he has taken me out to a nice restaurant for dinner/drinks.I feel like cringing inside but dont show it. Kind of give a half-smile and proceed. I did mention a couple weeks ago, that having the sports channel on TV in the background was so unromantic, as well as his offers were feeling like payback for the dinners, etc. He stated that it has always been this way, why am I bothered now with TV on, or the nonromantic effort to get “down to business”. I do cringe inside, but am very good at keeping a neutral face and going through. Realistically, the 7 minutes or so is survivable…..
So different than the romantic talk, the dimmed lights, the candles, the soft music and intimate whispers I have been part of with R-1 for hours at a time.Realistically, efforts made after years together is expected to wind down, but I am now spoiled and see that it is numbing with R-2, and don’t care. I make no effort to extend the time or make it any more romantic. Get it done and get off. Even his kisses give me an aversion. I am now aware that those tongue-out, mouth swabbing that he does, never changed since a teenager. Ugh! But I can stand anything for a few minutes. Then, R-2 is more pleasant and agreeable for the week. TMI I know, but I am being realistic. In my deepest thoughts, it would be wonderful to drop a letter, walk out, get in the car and never look back. I know that is unrealistic, the tears/drama/begging I am going to have to endure for a long time, but will set boundaries on that as it unfolds.
R-1 is aware and tells me I am being used as a “device or tool” by R2 to get his payback for paying any attention to me. I realize that the self-centeredness has been there forever and have only recently seen that I settled for crumbs of attention and made myself satisfied with that.
I am so glad you brought up about the sons. I am not a mean or uncaring person and saw that I was so defensive of R-1, that I felt the blame was unwarranted. You are absolutely right. I feel more open and forgiving, even though they had called me after the discovery 1 year and a half ago, and said some terrible abusive things to me that one time. They had found my home phone number on the internet. I then had their numbers blocked from my phone. They are probably depressed and angry about their own lives and living off parents still. That must be hard, though I think they have been enabled. Not my call, so they have their lives to live, and I have mine. Thank you for validating what I was starting to understand about the family dynamics.
My son is home from college over the summer, so now any drama now will involve son as a witness to it all. I feel like waiting for vacation to be over, and engage son back to his college for his senior year. I feel if leaving before then, R-2 will be able to convince son to stay because he needs him and is emotionally broken. I feel he will make son guilty over leaving him like this ( oh my, when did my mother arise from the grave?)
Yes, he talked of the vacation and I had no valid excuse to say no about it, so let it proceed. He had noticed my enthusiasm was less than before, but still proceeded, thinking it would get me more excited once he had it done. In past, he talked a good game and then never proceeded with vacation plans, unless I cajoled and pleaded to do it. This time, sort of ” Yeah, sure” attitude, and he did it on his own. I am sure subconsciously he feels things are different.
Welcoming your insight once again!May 19, 2016 at 7:30 am #105022AnonymousGuestDear Nan:
Regarding R-1’s sons, they do not have a right to be abusive to you and such should not be tolerated. In the context of the sons and their parents, it is their parents that failed them. If their parents were good, loving, attentive parents, the sons, most probably would be having different lives now.
As far as the physical intimacy with R-2: you cringe but it is not so bad because it only takes a short time and is soon over. And then he is more agreeable for a period of time. This arrangement has been working for you then. The physical intimacy is a price to pay so to keep life bearable. This is very much a form of slavery, as I see it: pleasing the slave owner and the slave owner is … not that bad. Life can go on.
If you were a free woman, this cringing would be enough for you to end it with R-2. But you are not yet a free woman.
You know of long term inmates that get “institutionalized”? When set free, they don’t know what to do with it and prefer to go back to prison? They feel comfortable there. And you got comfortable, or institutionalized, from an early age in placating the prison guard, following the rules and being allowed to live a life of great compromise, with only occasional bouts of freedom, partying, affairs, but no long term commitment to freedom. Am I correct? Let me know.
So, when is the right time to pull the plug (the original question leading to my inquiry): I don’t know but will come back to it. Please add anything that can help figure out the right time and even IF there is a right time.
Till your next post (or mine if I come up with something), take good care of yourself:
anita
May 20, 2016 at 5:32 am #105130AnonymousGuestDear Nan:
It occurred to me on my long walk yesterday and it boggled my mind: there’s been an elephant-in-the-room all this time, in your story, that I didn’t see until yesterday.
All the times that you expressed how R-2 is not going to make it without you, how he will not be able to function without you, how he will fall apart and will not be able to live, almost, if you leave him- all this was you projecting your own attachment to him.
I don’t know how R-2 will react to you leaving him, but what I do know is that what you were describing is how you will feel leaving him. This is what kept you in this marriage for so long and what is still keeping you.
You are afraid that you will not function without him, that you will fall apart without him. It is as if he, R-2, is your oxygen and you are afraid that you will not survive without him. You are projecting your own attachment into him.
You don’t like R-2; you don’t feel romantic toward him, you are very much hurt by him, feel unappreciated, but you are attached to him. Not different than a child who is attached to a parent who is neglectful and/ or abusive.
So, if you leave R-2, you are likely to go back to him because you have this powerful, decades long attachment to him. You may tell yourself that you are going back to him because he can’t live without you, while it is you who (feel like you) can’t live without him.
That’s the elephant. Nothing to do with R-1. So back to when to “pull the plug”- the answer is when you are willing and able to leave the man you are so deeply attached to, understanding where the difficulty is.
anita
May 20, 2016 at 7:42 am #105148NanParticipantHI Anita,
thank you for your insight. I feel it is not really correct, though. R-2 is very dependent on me ( almost like a child) to make the household run. I make his lunches for him before he goes to work, I pay all the house bills ( I pay for them myself from my money anyway) and he is quite novice at using a computer for paying bills, researching, etc. I am going to MN next week for work, and he “hates” that I am away and not there. He states that every time, when I go on trips without him. Seems so child-like to me, especially when he says he cant sleep without me next to him in bed. It is almost like leaving a child behind. I know I have created this, as I was always told that is what a “good wife” does. I would survive in a heartbeat without him. I own the house, make my own money, and coordinate his life for him. My reason for leaving, will be stated as not being happy, appreciated and always made to feel inferior by him. No mention of R-1 at first glance. So, his meltdown will transform into seething anger, once the R-1 involvement becomes apparent. IT appears I stayed in this melancholy (for me) marriage, because I felt I was less worthy, not very attractive and this situation is the ” Made your bed, now lie in it ” thought. R-1 expanded my mind, validated my worth, my beauty, my brains, and gave me courage and self-esteem I never had before.My one concern right now is this: Son home over the summer, they are buddies and have a great father-son relationship. I cringe at thinking of him being home and witnessing the meltdown. I feel R-2 will melt down, and become dependent and clingy with son. Son will feel guilty and may not return for his senior year, due to guilt of watching his father de-compensate. It feels like I should wait until end of August, when vacay over and son back in school. The drama will not be in his face and he would stay
(I think) and cope long distance with it. Of course, if he comes home, that is his choice and I will accept that. Don’t want to put him in the middle of the face to face drama, if I can help it.
I know the phone and texts will blow up, but feel I can control my own emotions at my pace, and control what I will or wont react to. I am sure it is mind-blowing to think Mom and Dad are breaking up 35 years later, and WHY? I am at a point where I don’t need validation or support to make decisions now. Just looking for other viewpoints and do feel you have insights I never thought of. Is my logic about the melt-down reactions sane or am I missing something?
When I think and play the “movie reel” of thinking of going back to him after all this, I feel anxious and nauseated with a big “NO” screaming in my mind. Better to be alone and peaceful and strong, than being the good “housewife/mommy” I have come to know as my role. My delay is based on the above thoughts. Your view is always welcome!May 20, 2016 at 8:05 am #105150AnonymousGuestDear Nan:
Regarding postponing your leaving until after your son leaves the house, summer time, I don’t think it is crucial that you leave before the visit as opposed to after the visit, that is in August or September. It may be a good idea to postpone until then, at least you will be at a more peace-of-mind after the summer.
Except there is always the unpredictable: could your son stay for the summer, leave, then you leave and R-2 calls your son in despair and son returns to the house? If that is a possibility, then it can be more disruptive for your son if you leave after the son’s visit.
As far as my insight in my previous post to you, I still believe I have something there, some elephant-in-the-room that needs to be examined. So will you help me out with this by reading the next paragraph (in which I will type-as-I-think) and tell me what you think about it?
So you are saying that you are not attached to R-2. And yet you view him as a child who desperately needs you. Doesn’t it indicate then that you are attached to him as a mother would be attached to a needy child, caring for the welfare of the child, afraid of leaving him, feeling a duty to him, guilt about leaving… and all that, doesn’t it indicate a powerful attachment to him?
And don’t you feel after all appreciated by R-2 by the very fact that you believe that he needs you so desperately? Doesn’t it make you feel very important to him?
anita
May 20, 2016 at 11:08 am #105172NanParticipantDear Anita,
About the “when to leave” idea, my thought was that my son would have his dorm and frat buddies, if he needed to talk.I know men don’t really discuss, but he may be so distraught, that they might be able to influence him not to leave school , if that was a thought he had. He has the highest honors at the school, and I would hate to see him throw it away. Ultimately it will be his choice. I will have no guilt about it, because life is about choices. If he doesn’t finish his degree, he will have to face the consequences of that decision.As for the attachment, it has sort of morphed into a pity situation. I pity the needy way he has become over the last decade or so. I resent being the meal ticket (even though he works full time and saves MOST of his money) but know I started that, back in the day when he became unemployed over a dozen years ago, for a short period of time. I pity him, that’s all. I have no need for his money, companionship and we certainly don’t talk of anything serious, as that has been his way. If something serious, he has a tendency to ignore, stick his head in the ground or to make sure his way of thinking is the right way in an escalated and argumentation way. I wouldn’t escalate any argument, just acquiesced and let it be, to keep the peace. That is my hardest weakness, keeping the peace at just about any cost. SO, I will be NOT keeping the peace and blow this all up with lots of noise and drama. That is why I revert to the letter drop and run mode, when it happens.
The feelings I have are: ” He doesn’t love me for who I am, He loves me for what I can do for him.” Very eye-opening to me when I read that quote somewhere. I make twice as much money as him, am more educated than him, and I feel he has been subtlety threatened by all of this, and is somewhat misogynistic in his ways. And I accepted it all and thought there was no other way. I have been enlightened to the idea that I don’t have to accept this anymore. I feel any apologies, or begging for forgiveness or trying to be sweet with me is ” too little, too late”. It is not in his nature, and it would feel like it is to make sure his comfy little life remains. Which angers me more- again feeling used for what I provide.
Whenever I try to argue back or assert myself, that I don’t like his comments or way of something, he always tell me I am being nasty, bitchy, or what the hell is making me so mad? Then, I back down every time,as the more serious discussion wont happen as he dodges and weaves out of the way, and tries to settle by ignoring or being quiet, with no further discussion. R-1 was a breath of fresh air to me and invigorated my soul in so many ways. It has energized me that I don’t have to settle for melancholy anymore.
May 20, 2016 at 11:29 am #105174AnonymousGuestDear Nan:
There is nothing that you told me about R-2 that endeared him to me throughout all of our communication. Through all of it, he is a person I would want nothing, absolutely nothing to do with. I don’t know how he is as a father but as a husband, despicable. You should see my face right now just so to get my feeling: it is distorted like, disgusted like. What distorted my face just now is “he always tell me I am being nasty,bitchy, or what the hell is making me so mad?”
At times in our communication I thought you were afraid of him, as I do now, afraid to NOT keep the peace at all costs this time. So used to operating out of fear, you are afraid to do something different, so significantly different. Is that is?
And not you being attached to him? Meaning, you are okay with him …. suffering your absence?
I do hope you leave him and not go back with him.
anita
May 21, 2016 at 1:04 pm #105272NanParticipantDear Anita,
Just came back from my counseling session who I have seen for over ayear now.
A couple of things were interesting.
1- I deserve to be happy. I have more strength and courage than a year ago. Ready to let go and move one. I am too old to waste another day,,,,though….
2- She felt that waiting until son was back in school at summers end, would be more comfortable to my thoughts. That if he witnessed the drama, meltdown, etc. he may make am impetuous decision to stay and help father, and not go back. He is empathetic and a close son with this father. He would feel, see and hear the drama, and not be able to escape it at the time.
3- She brought up a point I hadn’t thought of : What if R-2 commits suicide? Son and all family, friends will blame me for that. I was so surprised that I didn’t feel guilty with that thought. I feel he makes that choice, its his choice. But if he threatened that, I would make sure he understood that he inst hurting me, he is hurting his son, for the rest of his life. I will feel some sadness over the son’s anger with me, but possibly over time, might come around.
4- Do not wait for R-1 to make his life straight. I need to proceed for me, not him. I dont foresee living with him for several months or even a year. I need to see that his actions speak louder than his words with his sons and their dependencies. She agrees that we have been a gift to each other, building each other up, delighting and making each other happy in our communications and meetings. The real work is ahead.
I feel more confident in my decisions and will lessen the fear that has driven me my whole life. She repeated several times that I <deserve to be happy in myself and not to tolerate any less than I deserve. And with R-1’s help, I have and know that in my heart. Thank you Anita for your thoughts and insight. My motto will continue to be:
“If it is to be, It is up to me”. Will update as situations change….Sayonara!May 21, 2016 at 8:23 pm #105286AnonymousGuestDear Nan:
So the plan at this point to leave after your son’s visit ends.
The suicide idea: from all your shares, I don’t see it at all. From your descriptions of R-2, now way. He is too selfish, too self centered, too … unloving. He may threaten and say all kinds of manipulative things, but not kill himself. I don’t see an inkling of that in your shares about him.
What I saw all along is you being scared of him. And of late I thought maybe you are attached to him. Fear/ attachment, I don’t know, but the way I see it is that you have been having great difficulty leaving him. I am thinking he will have less difficulty living without you than you think.
But of course, no one can predict the future for sure.
What I would like is Nan freeing herself from a loveless marriage. Born-to-be-free Nan. I like it!
anita
June 21, 2016 at 12:08 pm #107859NanParticipantOne month gone by now. I am still here. Have saved a lot of money towards my escape plan. The challenge is that each day gets harder and harder to stay. I wanted to stay until my son went back to college in late August. I wanted to stay through the family vacation that will occur the first week of August. It was only to not “ruin and disrupt” the summer for the son home, and to not ruin and disrupt the last vacation as a family. R-2 still clueless and sometimes makes bitchy comments that I don’t like, but smile inside with what I know.
I am getting along very well with son, while he is home. Sometimes we both “roll our eyes” at some of the mindless comments R-2 makes. I have come to the conclusion that I must leave and be on my own for myself. No jumping into another man’s arms to be saved. Nope, I have a good job and a stash of cash. BUT it is getting so hard to wait to make sure everyone else is taken care of, before I leap. It feels like I am trying to control the “hate” level that will be spewed my way, when this occurs.
Another complication is that another good friends couple is now going on the vacation with us. Certainly dont need lots more witnesses to the meltdown. Also, no refunds on the fully paid cruises at this time. Thinking to make things smoother,(just a fraction) for after vacation, and also son going back to the dorms.
R-1 remains patient, understanding and supportive. One of his sons has left for a foreign country, and the other will just stay in the same marital home with the mother, I suppose. R-1 will be moving out on July 1 to his own place. We speak daily, and he seems to be stronger and less guilt-ridden on his home front and so still in love with me, with his cards, letters and phone calls. I do have a PO Box, as well as a second phone, in order to have secure communications. I think I feel like I am treading water. Some days, I feel like I am going under(like today), and feel sad and overwhelmed,waiting, waiting. Just wanted to vent today. I have requested R-1 not to see me over the summer, so I dont have to find another excuse for a few days out of town. Just no mindset to do that for now.
Hi Anita: I see you are busy, busy, trying to plug the holes in the leaking emotional dikes of our lives. Your words are always logical and bring out the solutions our poor battered souls need to be mindful of. All those young people, with such pain and anguish in their stories. I find it interesting that the pain and anguish over relationships has no age limit, no?June 21, 2016 at 12:37 pm #107860AnonymousGuestDear Nan:
One month since last communication although I did read your replies to others’ threads since. Yes, there is no age limit to pain and anguish and no matter how old we are, as long as we are alive we are vulnerable. If there is abuse, we get hurt, no matter how old we are. We never grow out of being vulnerable.
The hate you are afraid of, following your well planned and thoroughly thought out escape plan is not in the future, it has been in your present the whole time you’ve been afraid. That’s the funny thing (funny in an unfunny way)- that we think we are afraid of something that will happen in the future, only what we are afraid of is already happening and has been happening for a long time. Living in fear is a present time anguish. It is already happening.
You are trying hard to make your move with minimal disruption of others’ lives. Can you imagine being bold enough to state something like this to the world: I am alive and therefore I make waves. I leave a footprint where I walk. My life is not about avoiding leaving a footprint behind!
You are on my mind; keep posting.
anita
June 23, 2016 at 5:53 am #108001AnonymousGuestDear Nan:
I woke up this morning with Nan on my mind. So I am writing you first thing. I tis 5:43 AM here, raining. I was thinking, what if the right thing for you to do is to stop all pretense right now, to move out of your marital bedroom, to decide this very moment that there will be no physical and sexual contact with R-2 no matter what, that this part is over. Now and forever more. What if you decided now, that you tell R-2 that it is over. What if you tell your son the same, that you are done with this marriage. And you state this position with no consideration of events to follow except for one: whatever happens what it will NOT include is you being physical with R-2 or pretending anything at all with R-2.
No more pretending. What if you stand up for yourself now and having it done and over with.
You are planning your escape as if you are a criminal. You are planning on going on vacation with R-2 and pretending all is fine and then, when it is over, escape. Why… are you afraid he will kill you?
Maybe you should take the chance. If you are afraid he will kill himself, maybe you should take that chance too.It is about you standing up for yourself, taking the courage and doing so, in spite of your fear. Time to face the fear now.
Regarding the timing, I am suggesting the timing as Now. The vacation, well, maybe you can all go to it but you and R-2 in separate beds and no physical contact, no pretenses, be it a last vacation when you him and your son, all three KNOW during the vacation, that indeed it is the last.
I am 99.99% certain you will not take my advice here. I expect that and understand the power of fear. So I am realistic. But, Nan, really, sincerely I have to say, I really do believe this is the right way to go about this.
anita
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