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  • #335498
    limbikanimaria
    Participant

    I was at a meditation retreat in May of 2019, where I came in connection with a conventionally “unwell” woman. She was asked to leave the retreat on the first night due to a series of events. Before she was asked to leave, she left a note by my things that said, “I see energy, you have a black heart, I will pray for you”. What does this mean? I have thought about it quite a bit, because I don’t think she intended it to be “bad”. Maybe she did – I don’t know. I thought perhaps this meant that I have black energy in my heart chakra…in conventional terms would that make me a narcissist? Or perhaps it’s less extreme and means I have a blockage in my heart chakra. Black heart sounds pretty extreme to me, and I’m trying to figure out what she meant by it, whether she was a trustworthy person or not. I think it’s a really interesting concept that people can “see” energy, and would like to understand it better.

    #335538
    anita
    Participant

    Dear limbikanimaria:

    Good to read from you again.

    May last year, this woman left a note by your things which said: “I see energy, you have a black heart, I will pray for you”. You asked what it means and “whether she was a trustworthy person or not”-

    – she was not a trustworthy or responsible person because if she was, she would have left you a note asking to speak to you so to get to know you better and offer you some… cure for an alleged black heart.

    It is similar to this: a Christian comes across a non-Christian and instead of inviting that person to church for coffee and cookies and pleasant fellowship, he leaves a note to the non-Christian: you are going to hell, I will be praying for you!- that’s not helpful, is it.

    Which brings me to the thought: what does her note say about her heart? Leaving you a note with the judgement that your heart is black (whatever it means, but doesn’t read like a good thing) without any suggestion of what you can do to fix it?

    A good person, a concerned and responsible person, wouldn’t leave a note like this. Given the sender of the message is not good or responsible, but rude and crude… I see no reason to value her message.

    anita

    • This reply was modified 7 months, 3 weeks ago by anita.
    #335552
    Peter
    Participant

    Hi limbikanimaria

    I have no Idea why someone would leave a note like that for someone else with no explanation as more often then not the color black is unfairly associated with negative connotations.  I might guess that this person was asked to leave the conference because of a habit of doing this.

    Begs the question as to why the color black is associated as being negative. Perhaps as it is associated with death and death seen as “bad” and or sadly perhaps due to false racial associations.

    Symbolically the color black is associated with many things with the qualification of good and or bad dependent on context of the person engaged with the symbol.

    Black as a color is not a color, or it is the absence of color, which at the same time gives depth and vibrancy to other color. (as does death provide depth to life). As a symbol the color Black is associated with uncertainty/mystery.  In the west uncertainty is something to fear however it is only with uncertainty that learning is possible.

    Black is associated with power, fear, mystery, strength, authority, elegance, formality, death, evil, and aggression, authority, rebellion, and sophistication. In other words  ‘Black’ adds depth to experience.

    The art of symbolic language is similar to dream interpretation where it is the dreamer the decides what the symbols in a dream means or points to. This is an engagement where nothing is right or wrong, good or bad, and instead a door to learning something about ourselves.

    Contemplating what a ‘black heart’ might mean to you could be illumining as long as you don’t attach a sense of self to the process. This is not a ‘fact’ or ‘objective’ exercises but a subjective one where you pay attention to your intuition and discernment.

    All the best

    Light likes to think it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it. – Terry Pratchett

     

    #335560
    limbikanimaria
    Participant

    Hi Anita,

     

    I always appreciate your thoughtful replies. Thank You.

     

    She didn’t seem like a mean or cruel person – she did seem quite mentally unstable in terms of how our society operates. I think a part of what she said resonated with me in a way, which is why I’m still thinking about it months later. Your advice to not put any value into what she said is wise, but I do want to explore why it resonated with me.

    #335564
    limbikanimaria
    Participant

    Hi Peter,

    Thanks for your reply. What you said makes sense…that when exploring what this “black heart” means to me that I shouldn’t wholly identify with it. I think part of why I’m still trying to make sense of it, is that I felt a sense of shame when I saw the note, like my stomach dropped. Almost a gut reaction of “how could someone think that I had a black heart? I look like a nice person and this woman doesn’t even know me.” Somehow this note went against how I define myself physically, in that I generally try to appear as a nice person and I want to look “likeable”. Once I got over that initial reaction I thought about it more deeply and how we associate black with being “negative.” Once I thought about it more deeply and read some random internet articles about black hearts, I interpreted the “black heart” that she saw as perhaps deep down, my heart is a void of energy that can’t be affected by social conditioning. That beyond my external social conditioning, deep down my heart is pure, and the color or non-color of black could be perceived as pure because it is the opposite of white, which is also a pure color in my mind. So I reframed how I initially perceived her note to me, that she saw I had a pure heart, void of social conditioning that will need prayers in this world. That, or I just have an evil black heart haha. Either way, it’s just interesting to think about and I’m not identifying with it one way or another.

    #335568
    anita
    Participant

    Dear limbikanimaria:

    You are welcome and thank you for your kind words.

    “she didn’t seem like a mean or cruel person”- doesn’t mean she was not a mean or cruel person. Traditional cartoon artists make sure that a mean and cruel character looks mean and cruel at all times, but in real life mean and cruel people aren’t cruel and mean at all times and when they are, they don’t necessarily appear that way, on purpose or because of disassociation.

    Regarding why her comment resonates with you, it probably has to do with what you shared Dec 2016, in your thread about shame, you wrote that comments your mother made left you “to feel immense amounts of shame.. incredibly shameful comments… These comments are haunting me and I want to make peace with them and my mom”.

    She never apologized for those comments, did she.

    (I will be back to the computer in a few hours).

    anita

     

    • This reply was modified 7 months, 3 weeks ago by anita.
    #335572
    limbikanimaria
    Participant

    Hi Anita,

    I’m not sure if the comment from the woman at the retreat and what my mom said to me when I was 17 are related. They could be. Once I got past the feeling of shame that the note the woman left me, I think I was more intrigued by what a black heart could mean if it wasn’t intended to be negative.

    My mom never apologized, and in fact denied a memory that I described to her. I gave up hope that my mom will ever apologize, and I’m learning to be okay with who she is as an individual. It is a long process of letting go of my belief that justice should be served with an apology. She is who she is and she doesn’t want to unblind herself to how she shamed her children.

    #335590
    anita
    Participant

    Dear limbikanimaria:

    I am glad you “got past the shame that the note the woman left” you with, and that you are intrigued instead. Shame is a terrible feeling- thinking, a painful experience.

    Intrigued myself, I looked at Wikipedia and there is an entry for “Blackheart”. It states there: “Blackheart is a fictional character appearing in American comic books published by Marvel Comics. The character is usually depicted as an adversary to the superhero Ghost Rider… The character has also appeared in other media, such as the 2000 video game Marvel vs Capcom 2, and in the 2007 film Ghost Rider… He possesses vast inherent supernatural powers, including superhuman strength, speed and endurance which are magical in nature. He also has telekinetic and telepathic powers”-

    – if you did indeed have this kind of a black heart, you certainly don’t need this woman’s prayers, because you have all these supernatural powers.

    The urban dictionary has this definition for black heart: “a person who is no longer able to feel emotion i.e. their heart is dead. Usually occurs after multiple tragedies in life” and the slang dictionary states: “A black heart describes someone or something seen as innately evil or fundamentally corrupt”.

    Who knows what this woman meant. I suppose you can research further on what it means in various contexts.

    anita

     

    #335592
    limbikanimaria
    Participant

    Anita,

    I found it comical that you researched black heart and found a superhero version. I find it funny that what that woman said is being left up to such interpretation.

    I found some really interested articles about “Anubian black heart” discussing how there are “negative” celestial forces promoting black or negative energy on earth to selfishly serve them in a way. It says our reality is playing out the archetypes of victim-victimizer and promoting death culture. Essentially it is saying that our purpose as humans is to heal our negative energies or “black” hearts. I can see why I might energetically have a black heart, or a blocked heart chakra due to my traumas and playing out that victim-victimizer dynamic with my mom. I can see how playing out life as a victim to my mother, and my eating disorder, might have blackened my energetic heart. All this is to say that I need to keep focusing on myself and healing my heart, and transcending the victim-victimizer mentality through connecting to the divine.

     

    #335638
    anita
    Participant

    Dear limbikanimaria:

    I want this morning to study all your previous threads and offer you what I understand, hoping that maybe it will be of some help to you. The photo by your screen name reads: “Before you speak, let your words pass through three gates: Is it true? Is it necessary? Is it kind?”- I will keep these three gates in mind as I proceed.

    January 2016, four years ago (age about 23), you wrote about dating a man for a few months, you wrote: “Honesty is obviously important in all relationships, but I am obsessive about needing people to be honest with me”. Your boyfriend misstated the truth about a topic that was not important to you (maybe because he forgot), but your response: “I can’t get over that he lied to me.. I feel like he knew that he was lying, but he says it was an honest mistake.. I know myself and that I’m a nazi about people being honest with me… I keep going back and forth between feeling like I should forgive him or getting the f*** out of this relationship… It concerns me that if he did in fact lie about this, that he might lie about more important things in the future. .. a part of me feels like he lied to tell me what I wanted to hear in that situation”.

    December 2016, a bit over three years ago (age about 24), you wrote that you’ve been suffering on and off from bulimia for about seven years, since you were around 17. You wrote: “I’m focused on working through shame that I feel toward myself right now and examining the reasons why I began to feel this shame in the first place”. You shared that when you were about 17, your mother “made shameful comments” toward you, such as: “did you enjoy your binge?”, “All you’ve been doing is eating all day”, and “You can do whatever you want when you leave the house. No more puking”. You felt that she didn’t care about you, that she “didn’t want to deal with my feelings or disorder, and didn’t care for my wellbeing”, and that she left you “to feel immense amounts of shame about my eating disorders”; that you needed her “support during these vulnerable moments, not to be shamed”. You wrote: “I try to understand it from her point of view, but I also feel enraged.. These comments are haunting me”. You resolved to “not let my mother’s shameful comments have power over me anymore.. not judge her for making those comments.. but rather.. empathize with her more”.

    July 2017, about six months later (age 24), you wrote that you are “working towards recovery from an eating disorder” and you shared again about your on and off relationship (first thread), two years long, at this point. You wrote: “it has been eating at me that he is following 800+ people on Instagram”, including women he came across at Tinder before he dated you,  and that he “liked” photos of attractive women. You stalked his Instagram. You told him that you want him to unfollow these women and he told you that you are controlling, “I can’t seem to let go of this and allow it to continue eating at me”.

    October 2017, three months later, you shared that you’ve been working full time, and that you were living on your own two years by that time, and that living alone made it “too easy t give into binging and purging”, so you considered moving back to your parents’ home so to have your parents around, “to help me get back on my feet from my ED”. You then decided to stay where you were because commuting is three hours less than it would have been if you moved back to your parents’, and because you loved your apartment. So you asked your mother “if we could have weekly phone calls to check in and make sure I’m headed in an upward direction”. She agreed and indeed made supporting comments to you during those phone calls, like “we’re in this together and things will get better”, and “This isn’t your fault”.

    April 2019 (age 27), you wrote: “I have been feeling stuck the last few years and very resentful towards my mother for neglecting to support me/ getting the help I needed when my disorder first started”, you told her on the phone the day before this thread, and you told her that you felt very angry at her. She then told you that it wasn’t her fault that your disorder started or that you were angry at her, that what you remember (her shaming, uncaring comments) didn’t happen. “She kept saying over and over, ‘I would never say that. Maybe it was a dream you had. Maybe you misunderstood something else that I said'”, “it was almost as if she was trying to convince me that my memory was false.. It almost felt scary how genuinely she was denying it… Now I must accept that she denies my memory”.

    Same month and year, April 2019 you posted about a new boyfriend you’ve been seeing since January that year. He told you during a conversation: “I’d be happy to call you my girlfriend”. You wrote about his statement: “it sent me he message that he wanted to be exclusive”. Next, “anxiety set in for some reason and I felt an impulse to check if he was still logging into his dating profile”, so you checked and found out that he did log in there. You were confused, “Why didn’t he just say he wanted to keep things open? It just seems like his words aren’t matching up to his actions”.

    And now my input: sometimes reality is much simpler than we think it is. We think things are more complicated than they are because we refuse to see a part of it. If we saw that blind-spot, so to speak, the whole picture will become simple and clear.

    I will get to that blind spot and the whole, simple picture in a moment. Before I do, I want to clarify the following: I never communicated with your mother and never will. I don’t feel angry at her. I don’t have a desire that she suffers or that she will be punished. What I care about here is your well-being, trying to offer you something helpful.

    I don’t have a desire that you continue to feel angry at her. I am very well aware that not feeling angry… feels way better than feeling angry. I am also aware that there is a valid message behind every emotion, and that the message behind anger has to be acknowledged before the anger relaxes and we are free from it, no longer being stuck in it.

    The blind spot I am about to suggest will not be easy for you to read, this  is why you haven’t seen it so far. But seeing it will make the whole picture simpler and clearer, and that will definitely be helpful to you. It is very possible that as you read the following it will mean nothing to you because .. after all, it is a blind spot and you may very well not see something noticeable in the following, plus you may deny it all and get angry at me. Nonetheless here it is:

    The blind spot: your mother lies. And I don’t mean just about the specific comments she made when you were 17, denying that she has made them, but before you were 17, way before and after.

    I will now elaborate: you know that people lie, you suspected the two men you shared about lied to you. You read and hear about people lying frequently, don’t you, in the news, otherwise? We all do. Here is the blind spot: children can’t wrap their minds around the idea that their own mother lies.

    Realistically, lots of women in the world lie. Many of the women who do lie are mothers. But a child can’t hold this in awareness, that her own mother lies. Often children of adult age can’t do that either.

    How do I  know she lies? Because you shared Jan 2016: “I am obsessive about needing people to be honest with me.. I’m a nazi about people being honest with me… if he did in fact lie about this, that he might lie about more important things in the future”- but you didn’t mention anything about his behavior that explains this obsession. You did mention a previous boyfriend lying to you. But you also mentioned your mother, and I know that our mothers, our main caretakers, are the most powerful people by far, in our lives. And you clearly stated that she lied to you about those comments.

    But how many times did she lie to you and you don’t remember, how many times did you turn a blind eye or ear to her lies.

    You turned a blind eye to her lies but you open your eye wide to anyone else who may lie, stalking an Instagram account of one man, checking the dating profile of another and obsessing about being lied to.. by other people, not by your mother.

    We keep re-experiencing our childhood experience as we move on into adulthood and through adulthood. She lied to you way before the beginning of your ED and repeatedly over the years, and you keep experiencing being lied to. Children’s perceptions by the way, are very accurate, they don’t have any prior experience to project into their parents, what they see about their parents is true. But when what we see is scary, we close our eyes to it.

    anita

    #335656
    limbikanimaria
    Participant

    Anita,

    Thank you for the throrough analysis of my previous posts and connecting some dots.  I do know that my mothers lies, that I lie, that we all lie at times. In my experience as a human, it hurts to be lied to, but holding on to the actions of other people traps me in the victim-victimizer mindset. I think that an important step in my healing is to not obsess over my own, or other people’s behaviors (lying), but rather try to understand why the behavior might be happening on a deeper level. My mother is a habitual liar because she believes she needs to protect other people’s feelings, and protect herself. I do the same thing, for the same reason. My greatest relationship (boyfriend-girlfriend dynamic) trauma happened in 2011 with a boyfriend who slept with two other people, and lied to me when I had asked if he had slept with anyone else since the last time we saw each other (it was a long distance relationship, and our relationship had been on and off). He lied, and I believed him. I can justify lying when it is intended to protect other people’s feelings. In my human mind, I can’t justify lying when it is done for selfish reasons, and I believe that he lied to me for selfish reasons, because he probably figured I would not have sex with him if I knew that he had slept with other people.  I would not have slept with him had I known he had been with two other people since we last saw each other.  I would have been hurt and not wanted to see him during the week that he was home (He was home from college for a week when this occurred, and off to China for a study abroad).  We had sex and I trusted him.  During that week, we got into a car accident.  He was driving, rolled through a stop sign and I was in the passenger seat.  We were T-boned by a car going 55-60 miles per hour on my side of the car.  I was unconscious for about 20 minutes and sustained a concussion.  He didn’t sustain any injuries.  At the time, I wasn’t mad at him for getting us into a car accident.  It was an accident, after all.  While he was in China, he suffered severe anxiety attacks (probably from the guilt of lying and getting us into a car accident).  When he came home, everything just felt very off, as it had that whole summer.  We broke up.  That winter, about 3 or 4 months after we broke up when he returned from China, he sent me an email disclosing that he had lied to me about sleeping with two other people before we saw each other that May.  He probably did this because the guilt was eating away at him.  At first, I was in denial about my anger and tried to forgive him immediately.  I didn’t feel angry until a few weeks later.  I think I have felt angry ever since.  If he would not have lied to me, I wouldn’t have wanted to see him, we wouldn’t have gotten into the car accident, I might not have spent that whole summer waiting around for him to get back from China. I might have moved on with my life.  These thoughts are not productive and I try not to feed into them anymore.  Acknowledging the anger and feelings are most important.  What makes me the most angry is that on a deep level, I think I knew that he lied to me before we saw each other.  I was and am angry at myself for not listening to my inner guidance of lie detection.  I wanted to trust him, and I tried to.  I think there is still residual trauma in my body from the car accident, as well as trauma for being lied to.  Me and him have been broken up since March of 2014, he is married now to a girl who slightly resembles me. He still shows up in my dreams quite often, so I know there is still unprocessed trauma in my relationship with him that I need to address.

    It is not my job as a human to justify lying behaviors of other people. Lying is a behavior that happens for underlying reasons.  It has been exhausting trying to justify how he could lie to me for such selfish reasons.  I don’t think that he was trying to protect my feelings, I think he lied in order to ensure that he would see me and we would have sex when he was home for a week in between college and China.  I cannot wrap my head around this type of lie, and the more angry I feel at him for having lied to me so selfishly, the more I hold myself and my vibration in the victim-victimizer programming.  This is part of my story, and there was a lesson to be learned from all of it.  The lesson is to trust myself above anyone else, and trust my inner guidance.  My inner guidance had been warped from a young age due to being lied to by my mother, and probably my father. I wanted to trust them above anything else.  They were my nurturers and care takers.  They were my “gods”.  I didn’t want to believe that they could lie to me.  But they are humans too.  The problem was that I trusted them over my own intuition.  They would lie, and I might feel like something was off, but I ignored that little voice inside me telling me that something was off because I wanted to believe them.  This created a disconnection.  The lesson here is to learn how to rebuild trust in myself.

     

    Thank you, again for your insights. I am grateful.

    #335668
    anita
    Participant

    Dear limbikanimaria:

    You are welcome and I am grateful for your gracious reply.

    “I do know that my mother lies, that I lie, that we all lie at times“-

    -When people ask me: how are you? Most often I will answer: fine, thank you. Even if I don’t feel fine. Is that a lie? Yes, and in this way we all lie. This kind of lie (there are other examples) are part of what I call social lubrication lies. If I was to answer truthfully the question: how are you, asked by multiple people per day, neither I nor they will have the time or the desire to listen to a long answer, a long answer that will take time to develop as I answer.

    You made a distinction between lying so to protect other people’s feelings and lying for selfish reasons, like your ex boyfriend did (“to endure that he would see me and we would have sex”), a very painful experience for you.

    Back to your mother: I was not referring to her lying to you as in social lubrication lies, an accepted and practiced social custom in all modern societies, or as in what you mentioned, lying to protect others’ feelings, as in let’s say, a woman asking her husband: do you think I look fat?

    I am talking about lying for selfish reasons. I am suggesting that your mother lied to you for selfish reasons. And this kind of lying, we don’t all do, do we (outside of extreme circumstances such as when held hostage and physically tortured)?

    anita

     

    • This reply was modified 7 months, 3 weeks ago by anita.
    #335684
    limbikanimaria
    Participant

    Yeah, I agree. I think she lied to me because she was lying to herself, in a way. When she denied a memory I had of her (April 2019) from when I was younger, it was selfish because it was done to protect her self image rather than acknowledge my feelings, the hurt/pain/trauma she caused, she was more concerned about protecting her image than processing my feelings. She proceeded to tell my dad about it and apparently he said something like “that doesn’t sound like something you would say”, which she proceeded to tell me about to further paint the image that my memory was false. To give her further reassurance from my dad that her self image was protected and unthreatened in any way.  Essentially she has convinced herself that I made up a memory of her.  Maybe it’s a subconscious defense mechanism, or she really is selfishly lying to protect her self image of being a “good” mother.

    #335686
    anita
    Participant

    Dear limbikanimaria:

    My mother lied to me too, selfishly. Like you, my empathy was with her, not with me. Like you I focused on her, on her reasons, her life experience, not mine. Like you I was invested in seeing the best in her, to explain away her selfish behavior  (ex.: “maybe it’s a subconscious defense mechanism”, makes her selfishness unconscious, and therefore denies the reality that she was .. consciously selfish)

    What I am trying to bring to your attention is the following: a child has to believe that her mother loves her and will never selfishly and intentionally lie and hurt her. So the child closes her eyes to that, when it happens.

    Fast forward, as adults, we have to open our eyes because keeping them closed leads us to walk in the dark and stumble, so to speak,  that is, to live dysfunctional lives in the context of relationships and otherwise.

    As an adult, to heal, I had to shift my empathy from empathy for her—> to empathy for me;

    from my focus being on her (her reasons, her motivations, her childhood)–> focusing on me (my reasons, my motivations, my childhood).

    You wrote then that she didn’t lie to you to protect you but “to protect her self image rather than acknowledge my feelings”-

    – does this mean that what was important to her was not that you will get better, that you will heal from what hurts you, but that she will looks good in the minds of others, like your father’s?

    * Please take your time answering, this is not easy to process.

    anita

     

    #335700
    limbikanimaria
    Participant

    My issue is that I associate love with putting other people’s feelings before myself. My dysfunctional belief is that love = putting others over myself, getting their needs met over getting my own needs met. I associate love with giving what I think the other person needs, not what I need. I give them what I think they need to maintain the connection, I can see that I’ve been trying to give my mother empathy to keep our connection going, but it’s only intellectual. The attention is on the other person, not me. My mom can’t have empathy for me to process my feelings because she doesn’t have it for herself.

    I can have intellectual empathy for the victimizer (my mom) but not the victim (me), which is not true, heartfelt empathy. True empathy comes as a byproduct for having empathy for myself. A deep seated part of me thinks that I don’t deserve my own or anyone else’s empathy because I’m “bad”. I have patterns of putting others needs before my own as a means to maintain the connection because I don’t have empathy for myself and getting my own needs met.

    I think if we don’t give ourselves empathy, we will consciously or subconsciously play our lives out selfishly because we aren’t giving ourselves what we need, and we are looking for it in the wrong places.

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