The PUA/Self Imrovement Community is making me depressed

[Zelda]

Dear Tim,
Please give yourself a lot of credit for having a healthy concept of a loving relationship. Also, give yourself credit for being courageous enough to explore these tough questions and to share that process with us.

PUA culture is 100% horrible – those sites are filled with toxic misinformation and warped ideas about women that will never bring anyone true happiness and create a lot of confusion and suffering for people. The reason they are making you feel bad is because your instincts are telling you that they *ARE* bad and to stay away. You seem like a kind and decent person – never let anyone tell you that those aren’t god things to be.

If I have any advice for you it’s this: To find and maintain a healthy relationship, you have to first love yourself. If you don’t feel too loving or accepting towards yourself right now, that’s ok. Contrary to what we are taught, love is not just a feeling, but it is a SKILL and a set of actions and behaviors for relating to to yourself and others. And like any skill, the more you practice it the better you become.

First of all, forgive and accept yourself for not knowing how to love yourself: no one teaches this shit in a way that is helpful. One thing I find helpful is to bring to mind someone you love and care about unconditionally. Maybe this can be a young child, a dear friend or family member, or even a beloved animal. How would you speak to that person? What would you do if that person made a mistake or was upset? Think about the joy it brings you when you do something to help them or make them happy. Now, remember to treat yourself the same way. So often we beat ourselves up and tell ourselves not-nice things – but would you treat your best friend that way? Replace those thoughts with the kind and loving words you would use for your dearest friend.

In the book Art Of Loving, Erich Fromm speaks of the 4 aspects of love: care, responsibility, respect, and knowledge.
Self care and responsibility: What can you do right now to best take care of yourself and take responsibility for your actions and your happiness?
Self respect: What are your core values, and are you acting in accordance with them? What are healthy boundaries for you – the ways in which you allow people to treat you? Are you able to say ‘no’ when people try to cross those boundaries?
Self-Knowledge: Are you being really honest with yourself, to the best of your awareness?

If you focus on love from within, then love from outside will naturally follow 🙂

[Zelda]

Tim,
Regarding the feeling that you’re not good enough…

I am twice your age and still struggle with what I call the “I’m not good enough” monster. The only difference now is that I recognize it as one of the inner voices that come from fear and not the whole truth.

I even sometimes picture it as a cartoon monster and play a game with it:

Monster: “You weren’t smart enough to get that job.”
Me: I love and accept myself anyways.
Monster: “He wants a girl who is younger and prettier than you”
Me: I love and accept myself anyways.
Monster: “You should be a lot further along in your career at this age. You’re a loser.”
Me: I love and accept myself anyways.

See how that goes? Sounds silly but try it, you’ll feel better 🙂

[Adam P]

Hi there Tim,

First off congratulations on looking to discovering yourself and figuring out what you want in a relationship. As many people have already posted, it’s important what you want from a relationship. It seems from your original post that you would like a relationship with a woman who is kind, honest, caring and wants to be in a relationship where the two of you care for one another and have an enjoyable relationship together. Well if you want all of that in a relationship then you must first start working on yourself implementing those qualities into YOUR OWN Life first. I’m most likely the 1st person on this post to disagree, but it does not hurt to listen to the advice from the PUA community. By listen, I mean take the information with a grain of salt. You won’t be able to attract a healthy and happy relationship if you are not doing anything for yourself and not going/forming your own path in life. That includes enriching your life with many outstanding qualities and talents. Thus, you will be able to capture the attention of all the “women in the room” and then all that is left is to connect with a woman that you believe is a good heart and work on from there.

Thank you and take care
-AP85

[Tim]

Hey guys. Thank you so much for the active discussion we’re having. I am really enjoying this!

@anita
No, I would never mistreat anybody over those feelings. I just avoid these kinds of people but would never act out on negative emotions towards them since I know that they’re unjustified (most of the time).

@tamikaze2000
You may be right. I dont know what dating is like from a girls/womans perspective. The Internet just tells me that all women want to have sex with “alpha males” and that I will be cheated on sooner or later. That the kind of relationship I would like to have (romantic and long lasting) just isn’t possible for me since I’m not an alpha male. I weigh 74 kg and am athletic but no where near “muscular” or “jacked”.

@zeldatron
Thank you so much for replying 🙂 I hope that someday I will be able to believe in myself and love myself. At the moment, it seems like the entire Internet is out to tell me that the PUA stuff works, that the alpha/beta-male stuff is true and that I will be alone forever. I’ve talked to my therapist about this and asked how I could start to believe in romantic relationships but we didn’t really come to a conclusion. Maybe I should switch therapists … I will read Art Of Loving next, thanks for the recommendation! I know that the whole “I’m not good enough” comes from fear. I realize this. But I have trouble fighting this fear because I have no reason to doubt it, even though I find myself very attractive at times. It’s a confusing situation.

@ajp85
I’m not saying that absolutely everything is bullshit. Of course you should work on staying healthy, enjoy your own hobbies etc. But I dont want to be able to “attract all women in the room”. Also, these techniques that are being taught by “Dating Coaches” or whatever you want to call them disgust me. Like touching a woman in ways that are supposed to arouse her when you just met her. Maybe I’m oldfashioned, a beta male or whatever. But I want to get to know a woman before I come close to her (hug, kiss, sex etc). I want to see what she is like before starting to rub her arm or do some hocuspocus mumbo jumbo to arouse her. I’ve read some stuff by Mark Manson who is seemingly a super-guru of some sorts. He sounded like a freaking rapist. It was something like “Ravish her. Women want to be taken and fucking ravished”. LIKE WHAT THE FUCK? Are you serious? In what kind of world are we living? I’m not a keyboard warrior trying to protect the rights of women or whatever, but that above is just rape or sexual harassment atleast.

Once again, thank you all for participating and I’m looking forward to some more replies 🙂 Enjoy your day!

• This reply was modified 8 years ago by Tim.
• This reply was modified 8 years ago by Tim.
• This reply was modified 8 years ago by Tim.

[Nina Sakura]

It won’t be long – all this reflection and ideas you are gaining will give you both perspective and courage to stay positive and have a clearer self image.

[Anonymous]

Dear Tim:

Reality is people, children and adults, men and women are attracted to strength. When a person appears strong- and I don’t mean physically- then that person is considered attractive by many.

As far as male/female behavior, if we look at mating behavior in nature, males compete for the attention of the female by APPEARING as (physically) strong as they can appear. The female, guided by natural instinct, will choose the strongest male so that her offspring will be strong.

In humans, the instinct is there. But the attraction to the appearance of strength is more than in the context of dating. People become fans of a sports team so to gain strength by proxy, when the ream wins. People vote for politicians that appear strong, etc.

It is of benefit to be strong and to appear strong. Question is what is strength?

You mentioned your weight and appearance. It is not a bad thing to make some changes in your appearance that will please you and will make you appear strong, for example, have a healthier posture, be in a reasonably good physical shape, healthy weight for your height and some muscles. It is not a bad thing to choose your clothes with some attention to looking good in them.

Strength is more than these things- it is behaving confidently, keeping eye contact, firm handshake… not talking about yourself in a self deprecating way. Instead talk about yourself with respect, always.

I am sure I have more thoughts on the matter, but will take a break and continue … if you reply to this post and ask for more…

anita

[Tim]

Thank you anita, I’d love to hear more when you find the time 🙂

I have a problem with increasing my weight and gaining muscle, sadly. Trust me, I’m putting in the work exercise-wise (4 days per week, good routine) because I’m nauseaous nearly 24/7 and can barely motivate myself to eat. Nausea is the kind of feeling you cannot just ignore and eat it away or something, its sitting on your mind all day long. 🙁

• This reply was modified 8 years ago by Tim.

[Anonymous]

Dear Tim:

I have the time and I have an idea. Why don’t you post next, introduce yourself again with some of the same things you expressed in your original post and throughout this thread but do it with strength. For example, when you refer to the internet telling you this and that, restate the reference as to express that what YOU think and believe is more important than what the internet says. Show respect to what you believe is right in dating and relationships. Express somehow that the internet has no authority over you and it is you who decides what is right and what is wrong in your life. Take your time.

anita

[Tim]

@anita Whew a hard one. I had to think a while about this and I’m not sure this is what you expected but here goes nothing.

Hi there. I’m Tim. I am 22 years old. One day, I will have a girlfriend at my side, who shares and appreciates the same core values that I believe in: true feelings based on more than status, money or appearance. I believe, that two people can, provided they’re both willing to put in the work required, form a deep bond that can survive many if not all problems these people can face in life and the relationship. I will have a person by my side that I will support in every way, shape or form I can and I know that she will always be there for me when I have a bad day. I will be able to tell her everything about myself. Every dirty little secret, from depression to all the hard times I had to endure to get to this present day. The Internet tells me, that this is wrong. The companionship is a waste of time. That she will cheat on me eventually or that I will never be good enough. But that’s not true. I am who I am. And I am good the way I am. I’m not the most successful guy you’ll ever meet. Or the most muscular or attractive one. But I believe that my views of relationships, love, trust and loyalty are right and valuable.

Something like that? 😀

• This reply was modified 8 years ago by Tim.

[Anonymous]

Dear Tim:

In your post before last, you wrote that you are nauseous- why is that?

Regarding your last post: Excellent job on the exercise I suggested! I am impressed.

On the second line, before you started the exercise, you wrote: ” here goes nothing.”- that is not good. Don’t call your thoughts “nothing”! That is disrespectful to yourself and therefore, it communicates weakness.

Communicating respect for yourself will encourage respect from others. You can and should share, with a future girlfriend, your fears, vulnerabilities, frustrations etc. Here too, you can share those things on this thread as well. My point is: share those things with an attitude of self respect. This way you are honest AND you communicate strength.

So your second line: “Here it goes:” is way better.

If you want, we can continue with exercising: you can share a vulnerability, a fear, etc. in a self respectful way.

anita

[Tim]

Im on my tablet so it will be short. I have problems with my stomach and the Depression is also playing into that.

Probably my biggest fear is that I will never Meet someone who shares my point of view. And I won’t settle for anything less. I will not stay in a relationship that I’m unhappy with. And I won’t let somebody use or mistreat me.

[Anonymous]

Dear Tim:

Excellent again! I like your assertions, very much so. Notice: “I won’t let somebody else.. mistreat me.”- include yourself: I won’t let me mistreat me.

In anything and everything you do, treat yourself well- this is strength. When you treat yourself well in the way you talk to yourself and about yourself, when you choose who to interact with and who to not interact with, when you choose what to eat, when to eat (regarding your stomach trouble), when you choose what is right for you, you show others that you are worthy, worthy enough to be taken seriously, to be noticed and respected- and this is strength.

Notice as you talk to yourself and as you talk to others about yourself and practice these things every day. This practice will promote your well being and your chances for a healthy relationship with a woman will be greatly improved with this practice.

Post anytime.

anita

[Tammy]

To be clear, Tim, women do not want to have SEX with Alpha Males. SOME women want to have RELATIONSHIPS with males they perceive as Alpha and end up having sex with them under the mistaken belief that the guy will make them their girlfriend. PUA often employs techniques to give women the impression that you want to have a relationship with them or that you are really in to them in a way that would lead to exclusivity. Women want relationships, not casual sex. Yes, there are women who purport they are just looking for hookups but usually it is a misguided attempt to look “cool” thinking that will get the guy. Casual sex and/or looking cool does not get the guy.

As others are saying, PUA is a bunch of people’s opinions on how to hookup with girls for the most part. I have seen some advice that is about guys feeling better about themselves to meet girls and end up in a relationship. Most of the PUA is just about getting girls into bed. So, if you want to change your view on dating and relationships, stay away from PUA as it will just depress you. A lot of it is cynical, manipulative and just plain ugly. I wouldn’t fire your therapist yet either. They need to work with you to see when YOU are ready to change your mind about how things work. Until you are ready to change your belief system to believe in romantic relationships, no one can make it happen, they can simply help you sort through your thoughts until you figure it out.

[Tammy]

Oh, and I should add, PUA is mostly about people making money off of others by selling their advice and systems.

[Tim]

Thank you, @anita and @tamikaze2000 for your replies!

Yes, I really want to treat myself better.

I should also stay away from the internet. There are many selfhelp forums on the Internet. I feel like most of them are full of the stereotypical “college student”. They hype themselves up about how they “kissed the girl within two minutes of meeting her” and how they caught the attention of every girl in the room. And I feel “triggered” by that. I don’t want any of that. I dont want to always be the center of attention. In my mind I have a very romantic view of how dating should work. First I would just talk to her, maybe ask for her number. Then chat for a while or call her and setup a date. After that, we would just “become friends” in the sense that we get to know each other. I don’t want to have to follow any specific “guidelines” or stuff like that in order to impress her or whatever. And in the small town I live, I don’t see any of those “stereotypical college dudes” trying to pickup girls. I see normal, regular, average people like me and their relationships are very much like what I imagine mine should be.

The selfhelp forums are full of this … I dont know how to describe it. “Performance society”? They act like you always have to be the best, you always have to be confident, you always have to be better than person X or else you’re a beta. That’s nothing like the real life I am living and where I go grocery shopping with other, regular people.

I am so confused by this. I don’t want to be part of this performance society. Yes, I do want to study at a university. But I won’t be the very best and I honestly couldn’t care less.

Do you guys have any advice on that?

• This reply was modified 8 years ago by Tim.

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