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The PUA/Self Imrovement Community is making me depressed

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  • #119175
    Tim
    Participant

    My name’s Tim and I’m 22 years old. At the moment I’m
    deep down in a depressive phase and trying to figure out my life. I’ve
    spent way too much time on the internet and sadly stumbled over
    PUA/MGTOW/Redpill/Owen Cook etc etc. I also read some books on self
    help and self improvement which contributed to my depression.

    Now here’s the deal: I do not want to believe these people. What I want
    from a relationship is based on mutual respect for each other. If I (at
    some point) have a girlfriend, I want to tell her how amazing she looks in
    that dress. I want to tell her how much she means to me. I want to cuddle
    with her on the couch or cook dinner with her and enjoy our time together.
    That’s what having a relationship is all about for me. At one point,
    I want to believe that I can find someone who I can spend the rest
    of my life with. The Internet keeps telling me that all relationships
    are “temporarary until one isn’t” and that it all could fall apart any moment.

    It also keeps telling me that I am not good enough. That it is
    “not enough to be a nice guy” without defining what a “nice guy” actually
    is. What else can I offer expect for being nice? I respect women the same way
    I want to be respected. Maybe it is because English isn’t my native language
    and I’m not getting the term. But isn’t being nice a huge part of a relationship?
    You want someone you can count on. Someone who will be there for you when you fall.
    Why would I be with someone that isn’t “nice”?

    All this has really taken a toll on my mind and I feel insecure,
    invalidated and helpless. I don’t know what to do. I’ve started counseling
    but it doesn’t really feel like its helping. I have no self esteem or
    confidence because apparently “I’m wrong and crooked”.

    I BEG YOU: Do you guys have any advice for me? At the moment I’m struggling to
    find a reason to even keep going.

    Regards, Tim

    #119176
    Inky
    Participant

    Hi mskc33/Tim,

    A website which might be of interest to you is The Good Man Project. From what I’ve seen it has articles by and for STRONG, NICE guys!!

    And obviously, stay off the PUA websites. They have a very basic level understanding of the human condition and psychology. They want you to give girls the perception that you have a higher “mate value” and thus are in high demand and so they have to get their acts together to be with you.

    Let me tell you, that as a woman, we can see someone using the PUA methods a mile away. Friend, it doesn’t work. Maybe it did, like, ten years ago. But being a gentleman never goes out of style.

    And I married my husband BECAUSE he was a nice guy who DIDN’T play games!

    Best,

    Inky

    #119178
    Tim
    Participant

    Hey Inky, thanks for your quick reply and for the link!

    Another problem I’m having is: I don’t know what I need to provide/have in order to have a relationship. I feel like I have nothing of value to offer. I think I’m quite attractive as I’ve had about 8-10 girls interested in me in the past but I still feel like a complete and utter failure with no value.

    Multiple “online dating coaches” have also tried to tell me that guys have it worse in our dating culture. I think to a certain degree this is true. It’s way easier for a girl to find casual sex than for a guy. Mainly because there are waaaay more guys looking for casual sex than girls. This has caused me feel a certain resentment towards attractive women because they have something I seemingly cannot have.

    Any advice?

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 11 months ago by Tim.
    #119180
    Nina Sakura
    Participant

    Dear Tim,

    Before you consider what you can offer, first be clear about what you want from a partner – and also you are only 22 – the hook up culture is more common in twenties and especially in certain societies. Secondly, when the relationship happens, you will figure out what you need to offer when it happens – right now, over-analysis of this won’t help.

    The irony is you need to understand that there is nothing wrong with you and the right person will appreciate who you are just the way you are. All this dress better, wear xyz perfume, be macho shit advice is just extra layer on the basic cake – the problem is your belief that the basic cake sucks. If you think that’s the problem, no woman will be able to change that. One of my exes wasn’t conventionally good looking at all in fact but what I adored about him was the fact that he was very chilled out about it and treated me well, he didn’t let his insecurities color his perception so much.

    Lastly, try getting dates through your common network of family and friends. I know that sounds cliché but it may work better compared to the current online problemyou u are facing.

    it’s not the end of the world if you don’t find a girl ASAP, what matters is meeting the right person for you – truth be said, I always take internet advice with a pinch of salt. Work on yourself and the underlying issues which are unique to you.

    Regards,
    Nina

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 11 months ago by Nina Sakura.
    #119182
    Tim
    Participant

    THANK YOU NINA. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. This is totally what I believe about relationships. The Internet tells me to improve myself in all these ways but I feel like it would twist me in a way that isn’t me anymore. I’m a little bit introverted. Okay. I think I can accept that. I’m shy. Okay. I can learn to live with that and maybe force myself to be a little more open.

    You, Nina, seem to really know what you are talking about. I’d love to hear more from you and your views on this if you’ve got the time 🙂

    I’m not over exaggerated when I say that you have brightened my day 🙂 I was horribly depressed when I came here but now I feel atleast a little bit better about myself!

    #119184
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Tim/ Markus:

    You wrote above: ” It’s way easier for a girl to find casual sex than for a guy. Mainly because there are waaaay more guys looking for casual sex than girls. This has caused me feel a certain resentment towards attractive women because they have something I seemingly cannot have”

    Do you mean that you resent attractive women because they can easily have casual sex and you can’t?

    anita

    #119185
    Pegasus63
    Participant

    Tim,

    You’ve touched on one of the issues that I see in many corners of the internet– the “black and white” nature that can exist within it.

    There are online articles out there that I think can make just about anyone feel bad about themselves. One example I’ve seen is on the topic of “narcissism” – advice to immediately steer clear permanently of anyone who does anything on a list even once… and yet the list seems to throw such a wide net that I don’t think anyone on earth hasn’t done at least one of the things on it at least once.

    That does by no means indicate that there aren’t horrible relationships out there and people who need gentle advice to understand that they need to make a change… there are, unfortunately, sad but true. But what also happens is that people who are prone to questioning themselves (myself included) see themselves being written about in these “black and white” pieces, and feel even worse. Try your best to not do that to yourself. It’s not easy, I know.

    Thanks for reading.

    #119207
    Nina Sakura
    Participant

    Dear Tim,

    I am glad I cheered you up a bit 🙂 you being introverted isn’t a bad thing at all – most guys I know are kinda reserved in the first appearance and then they eventually open up – I like the introverts because of the deep conversations I have had with them and well, I am one too haha…extroverts are awesome too to liven things up and push one outside their comfort zone.

    Well you are right. An introvert will have to make some effort to interact and open up. I think it will be very beneficial if you could work on being more open – not just to find a partner but rather to feel more comfortable in live interactions.

    It’s simply a matter of time and place I think. If you want, watch this movie called “before sunrise” – there is another movie called “before zunset” and then “before midnight”

    You will learn quite a bit about how introverts work in love and about relationships as they progress.

    You will meet the girl when the time is right. I have this odd belief about the universe after 3 experiences so far in most unexpected ways – keep yourself open, positive and with a clear head.

    Internet often has lot of biased advice for the same issue, so don’t take it to heart entirely if something super negative is there.

    What’s your ideal girlfriend like? If there was something that interested you, what would it be?

    Regards,
    Nina

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 11 months ago by Nina Sakura.
    #119210
    Peter
    Participant

    I found the following book helpful.
    Wish I had read it when I was 22

    How to Be an Adult in Relationships: The Five Keys to Mindful Loving – by David Richo

    “Most people think of love as a feeling,” says David Richo, “but love is not so much a feeling as a way of being present.” In this book, Richo offers a fresh perspective on love and relationships—one that focuses not on finding an ideal mate, but on becoming a more loving and realistic person. Drawing on the Buddhist concept of mindfulness, How to Be an Adult in Relationships explores five hallmarks of mindful loving and how they play a key role in our relationships throughout life:

    1. Attention to the present moment; observing, listening, and noticing all the feelings at play in our relationships.
    2. Acceptance of ourselves and others just as we are.
    3. Appreciation of all our gifts, our limits, our longings, and our poignant human predicament.
    4. Affection shown through holding and touching in respectful ways.
    5. Allowing life and love to be just as they are, with all their ecstasy and ache, without trying to take control.

    When deeply understood and applied, these five simple concepts—what Richo calls the five A’s—form the basis of mature love. They help us to move away from judgment, fear, and blame to a position of openness, compassion, and realism about life and relationships. By giving and receiving these five A’s, relationships become deeper and more meaningful, and they become a ground for personal transformation.

    #119211
    Rock Banana
    Participant

    These guys are not offering the “truth” as there is no “truth”. They are offering you their perspectives, the way they do things and think about things. If you don’t like them, if they don’t resonate with you, then go a different way.

    And you already know what that way is. A way in which you are a kind person who creates mutually beneficial relationships. Sounds goddamn awesome to me!

    As for self esteem … probably part of the reason you’ve probably become depressed is because you’ve been reading self help books that tell you that you need to think positive thoughts about yourself and think you’re great, and it matters what you think.

    Do you know what the problem with those books and that philosophy is?

    You are NOT your thoughts!

    Those books are coming from the mistaken point of view that the content of thoughts is hugely important. But they miss the really important thing: thoughts are not reality. Thoughts do not describe reality, they are just ideas you are creating in your mind. But they’re not “true”. You cannot be “bad” or “good” in reality – “nothing is good or bad, but thinking makes it so” – Shakespeare. I recommend you practise mindfulness meditation and check out videos by Eckhart Tolle and Noah Elkrief. You will come to realize that you are not your thoughts, that thoughts are not reality, and so instead of replacing negative thoughts with positive thoughts, how about you just forget about placing importance on thoughts altogether, and tune into something far bigger, far more important, so much more powerful – yourself. Beyond thinking.

    BTW, perspective is everything. You sound like you think you’ve failed and wasted time. I read your post and I genuinely thought “awesome! This person has developed so much clarity around how they want their relationships to be, by going down a path that didn’t suit them and seeing how much it didn’t fit them. That is really valuable information they have learned.” As for the self help and self improvement stuff, it probably has been useful, but you need to go beyond it. It’s not that there’s not useful information in those books – there is – but I think you need to take all you’ve learned, practiced and utilized and now discover the importance of going beyond associating thought and thinking with reality. You’ll probably find there’s stuff in those books (and that PUA stuff) that comes in useful later on down the line once you better know how you can use it in a way that suits YOU, and with a broader framework of knowledge, understanding and a quality of being grounded.

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 11 months ago by Rock Banana.
    • This reply was modified 3 years, 11 months ago by Rock Banana.
    #119229
    Tim
    Participant

    I cannot seem to post anything and I dont know why.

    Do you mean that you resent attractive women because they can easily have casual sex and you can’t?

    Sadly, yes to a certain degree. And I hate myself for it. I dont want to do that. But that’s what the Internet tells me and I cannot prevent myself from believing it just a little bit. I was told that “the dating market” is unfair towards men and that attractive women will always have the freedom of choice and have advantages that men dont get.

    Also, my real name is Tim. I posted this text earlier on a chat room and used a pseudonym but I feel like in this community I should be honest from the ground up because you all seem like really nice people 🙂 Would it be possible to somehow edit my first post so that there is no confusion about it? I cannot seem to edit it anymore, sadly.

    But what also happens is that people who are prone to questioning themselves (myself included) see themselves being written about in these “black and white” pieces, and feel even worse. Try your best to not do that to yourself. It’s not easy, I know.

    Thanks for reading.

    Thank YOU for replying! Yeah, I feel like I really do that. But also, I’m nowhere near perfect. I value the opinion of others way too much and lose my self esteem because of it. And because I have no self esteem, I project everybodys problems onto me. A vicious cycle.

    Tim

    What’s your ideal girlfriend like? If there was something that interested you, what would it be?

    Probably a little bit like me. Shy, introverted, likes to spend the Friday evening at home cooking together and enjoying the moment 🙂

    You will meet the girl when the time is right.

    I’m a little scared of waiting for that though. What if it never happens?

    // Edit: Yay, finally a post of mine came through! I tried to reply atleast 5 or 6 times already and it didnt work. Sorry to let you guys wait!

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 11 months ago by Tim.
    • This reply was modified 3 years, 11 months ago by Tim.
    • This reply was modified 3 years, 11 months ago by Tim.
    #119241
    Monklet
    Participant

    (Just responding to the title, don’t have much time, sorry.)

    Well, no shit, son! Get out of there!

    #119250
    Tim
    Participant

    Well, no shit, son! Get out of there!

    I wish it was that simple. For some reason I keep going back because “I’m not good enough”. My brain loves to torture itself. 🙁

    #119251
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Tim:

    It is okay for you, as a young man, to be interested in sex. It is natural. And so feeling resentment toward those who can have what you, so far, could not, makes sense. Your resentment is not a bad thing, unless you mistreat someone. If you don’t mistreat another, then whatever you feel is okay. Please don’t hate yourself for feeling… anything at all that you feel.

    What you want in a relationship reads lovely to me. If I was single, I would want the same things and you would be a very attractive prospect for being honest, respectful and indeed, a nice guy.

    You are good enough, Tim. And I sure hope you will realize it soon enough! Post again, anytime.

    anita

    #119267
    Tammy
    Participant

    Hi Tim,

    I would say that believing that men have it harder than women dating is not accurate. What I do believe is true is that men are challenged to finding casual sex partners and women are challenged to find relationship partners. I have never been a fan of casual sex. I don’t like it, I get nothing from it other than feeling bad about myself. So when well meaning friends tell me “Oh, you are attractive, you will have no trouble finding someone” I want to just scream at them. Sure, I will have no problem if I want to accept last minute “dates” from online guys who are obviously just looking for their next hookup.

    How long it can take and where we will find someone for a relationship is difficult because you really can do only so much to make it happen if you are looking for the right one, the person you connect with who is really right for you. For me, I just continue to focus on doing what I need to feel good about myself and continuing to talk to men online until I find someone I do connect with. I also take breaks because it can wear you out spiritually.

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