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- This topic has 115 replies, 5 voices, and was last updated 5 years, 11 months ago by Feathering my nest.
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November 7, 2018 at 11:26 am #235865AnonymousGuest
Dear Feathering:
I like the gift you will be giving him. I hope he will like it and appreciate it.
If the magic some other women have is looking at the man’s eyes without anger, then you can do that too. I think men love it when a woman looks at them affectionately and smiles. On the other hand, they get very alarmed when a woman is angry at them, it triggers the mother being angry at them. In every man there is a scared little boy, after all. In most men, if not in all.
I hope you prepare will, let me know if you need my input on any of your preparation.
anita
November 8, 2018 at 12:38 am #235937Feathering my nestParticipantDear Anita,
Ahh yes…. ‘the angry woman’.
How can I assimilate the anger? It runs deep- much of it existed long before I met him.
Assimilate or at least, keep it at bay for now. (And deal with it in a space that is safe to do so.)
Anita I have a gift I would like to send to you too- if you are happy to accept it. I am an artist and want to gift you some of my work.
Feathering
November 8, 2018 at 4:57 am #235947AnonymousGuestDear Feathering:
How precious, that you want to give me a gift, and it being your art work! How would you send it to me, online?
Regarding your anger, I want to re-read your posts so to get a feel for it, will be back to your thread later.
anita
November 8, 2018 at 12:08 pm #236053Feathering my nestParticipantHeya Anita,
The gift:
Its actually a one-off and I’d like to send you the real thing, if that is possible. (Might require some arrangements in order to keep you private and protected and all that! But I have a few ideas.)
Regarding anger:
My therapist asked me “What is your experience of rejection?” Its something I need to unpick. Instinctivly it feels like the mothership of my anger.
That _and_: my last relationship -which was on/off basically limping along for a whole two years ended very badly. This is a different man to the one whom I discussed in this thread.
He was not there for me when I needed him, he did not have much of a concept of what it meant to be in a reciprocal relationship. And I just kept going: kept giving. He’s quite autistic and I put his lack of efforts down to this. There are lots of things I am very angry with him for, and I am angry with myself for staying with him for so long. It ended when I first found the hairs of another woman in his bed – I suspect his ex. He claimed she stayed in his house while he was away with work. I was deeply unsettled, we talked about it and I was unequivocal in demanding that he needed to be 100% honest with me, and upfront about his friendship with his ex. (Years ago, he had dumped me and gone back out with her.) Shortly after I was humiliated to find out he’d lied to me and spent Christmas with his ex, and not with his brother as he led me to believe. I ended it right away. It was such a slap in the face after I had worked so hard and given so much.
One time – when I was out with the gentleman whom I wrote about at the start of this – I had a go at him, essentially thinking he was this ex of mine.
Occasionally I re-lived feelings it was literally like a case of PTSD. So if it took him a while to respond to a text message, it would take me instantly right back to a place of intense negativity that I associated with my ex. I also angrily demanded validation and praise from this guy, because I had felt that so sorely lacking in my last relationship.
We had a complicated interaction once. One time I found myself shouting at him to “Fuck off” and “Nobody is MAKING you stay here. If you want to leave and not be with me then just GO.” I yelled this because he had looked disgusted and said to me: “What you just said implies I’m selfish, which hurts because I worry I am selfish. Why would you hang out with me if you think I am selfish?”
So yeah: in response to that I yelled at him to fuck off. It was a knee-jerk reaction and totally inappropriate for that present situation. Really off-kilter.
He pretended not to hear me which meant I could back-track and ask a sensible question instead of being so reactive. I found out later, that he had heard me.
Anyway that was the last time we hung out together as an item: he was declined to meet me the next time I asked him out, so I said it wasn’t going to work. We agreed to meet and talk: he dumped me. (But then we connected really well and left the pub holding hands – which confused me.)
-Feathering
- This reply was modified 5 years, 12 months ago by Feathering my nest.
- This reply was modified 5 years, 12 months ago by Feathering my nest.
- This reply was modified 5 years, 12 months ago by Feathering my nest.
November 8, 2018 at 12:14 pm #236059AnonymousGuestDear Feathering:
Thank you so much (!) wanting to send me a gift in the mail, but I can’t give you my mailing address here.
I will be back to the computer in about sixteen hours, will read all of your recent post, and respond when I am back. I am interested in understanding the anger issue better.
anita
November 9, 2018 at 5:44 am #236141AnonymousGuestDear Feathering:
This is what you wrote about your anger and which makes sense to me (quotes in this post are not necessarily in chronological order): “this deep anger and fear is probably what is keeping me isolated… several ex boyfriends have told me I am an angry person. It must bleed out of my pores without my noticing”.
I think you are aware of your anger but unaware of the extent of it, meaning you are angrier that you believe that you are. You wrote about your anger that it is “a subtle soft and subversive anger that unwittingly keeps people at bay”. I don’t think it is subtle at all. You view yourself as patient and kind when anger, not patience and kindness, is the dominant emotion and characteristic of your relationships with others. (“I am patient, willing to do the give and take, willing to communicate… now he tells me my ‘friendship wasn’t very friendly’- which isn’t true, I was always kind to him”).
You wrote: “I wonder if this deep undercurrent of anger we discussed is creating a hostile environment- that makes communication between my lovers and I very difficult. Several remarked that I have a lot of anger”- you are aware and not aware. You are not aware of the extent of your anger, minimizing it. Ex boyfriends told you about it but you ..don’t quite believe them.
When you first met the current man, you quickly “judged him too harshly”- there is the anger, right at the beginning. Then came the arguments where you refer to him as if you were a police interrogator of a criminal suspect: “He shifted between denying.. and then later admitting it… By his own admission… He admits to being afraid”.
I looked for the origin of your anger and found something when you were five: “When I was 5… we moved to Wales… we left our cat with him. My mother refused to allow me to keep in contact with him and had a whole host of excuses as to why we could not take our pet cat”. So you were angry at your mother at about five.
You wrote about your father: “My father is a critical man and unaware of how intense his anger is”- like you then, he too is unaware of how intense his anger is.
Because of this anger you prefer to do the following: “to make friends with strangers, with whom I’d befriend for the day and not speak with again”- you intended the relationship with the current man to be short term as well, from the beginning. You want love but you are angry, so you can take.. a bit of love short term only.
You are intensely angry at others, so much so t hat you lack empathy: “I struggled to put myself fully in the shoes of others and often had arguments that I struggled to reconcile”.
Back to the origin of your anger: “I then consistently feel unloved and unappreciated. And as soon as those feelings kick in it triggers a cycle of thoughts, feelings and behaviors that are extremely difficult to stop”.
I believe that you were “unloved and unappreciated” as a child on an ongoing basis, that you reached out to your mother and/ or your father repeatedly for their love and did not receive it again and again and again. That was the origin of your anger.
You wrote about this suggestion that I already made to you: “As humans, they are not perfect”- you let my suggestion that you weren’t loved as a child slide off you with that comment and other convenient type of thinking. Yes, they were not perfect and they didn’t love you, would be the realistic thought, I believe.
Of course they fed you, sheltered you, were nice to you sometimes, but for many hours, days, months, years, most of the time, they did not love you, that is, they rejected your efforts to get their love, and those rejections hurt you intensely and infuriated you.
If you address, acknowledge, and process those feelings of anger toward your parents, one of them, or the two, you will no longer feel anger at everyone else. Your anger will become person-specific and freed from inserting itself to each and every relationship in your adult life.
In this coming meeting with the current man, I hope that you will be honest with him about how you feel, including about your anger, let him know that it doesn’t mean that you are responsible for all the troubles in the relationship that took place with him, but it is very significant. Do your best to not argue with him.
When you feel the beginning of anger following something he said (or didn’t say), ask him a question about what he meant by this or that. Look for his reason to replace the possibly and likely incorrect assumption you made about what he meant.
When you feel overwhelmed, control yourself, no knee jerk reactions in words or acts. Take deep breaths. When you feel that he just offended to you but are not absolutely sure, say to yourself: I will think about this later, not now and change the subject, or just have some quiet time. Then think about it not in his presence. Share it here if you want my input.
anita
November 9, 2018 at 11:46 am #236215Feathering my nestParticipantHeya Anita,
Thanks for this. It was hard reading but I think, the truth. My sister has a massive issue with anger, so does my paternal uncle. So did (reportedly) my paternal grandfather. Its like some inter-generational sickness. It is one of the reasons why I don’t want kids.
Plan of action is roughly/ things I am sure about:
-Approach with inquiring mind. Seeking understanding here. That is the goal. State this, make it obvious.
-Give him the lavender balm! Explain why it meant so much that he took care of me when I was assaulted. (But not sure when: before we talk…. to ease us both… or after….?)
-Ask him what he meant by “Your friendship isn’t very friendly.” comment.
-Thank him and explain I finally feel ready to deal with some issues that have troubled me for a long time.
-Admit to having an issue with anger and own it – seeking help to address it. Explain that my last relationship compounded this issue and made it worse, I projected a lot of past hurts onto our interactions. He is owed an apology for this.
-Explain I am willing to discuss the details in which I felt these anger issues came up and effected him. Instances in which I was being a dick, basically. For which he is owed an apology. (Those instances are: dismissing him as being only ever good for a casual relationship from the outset, that time I yelled at him in a cafe, angrily demanding his validation, pressing eject on the relationship because I was scared he was going to dump me instead of talking it over with him, getting sucked into arguments over text message.)
-However: “That was my role and I am only one half of this.”
-Explain I’ve realised that nobody is issue free: my issue was I didn’t talk about my issues and this is what kept my alone. I need a partner who understands that my anger is a product of hurt and fear, is able to support me as I deal with the issue, as it will be ongoing. (Which includes being unafraid to call me out on it, when I’m being difficult.)
-Ask what is going on with him and this other woman. (I want to know. I expect this will trigger all sorts of rejection feelings -and then…anger… so leaving this until the end.)
-Keep calm, confident, eye contact. I can fake this for long enough to see a conversation through.
-Taking your advice on dealing with feeling overwhelmed. Its ok to admit to feeling overwhelmed and defer responding until I’ve had time to consider.
Things I’m unsure about:
-Telling him I miss him and felt that we had a lot to offer each other.
-Telling him I literally lost my voice after we argued. (He’s a singing teacher and taught me to sing.)
-Telling him I’m gutted we argued and I keep seeing/learning/doing cool things that I know he would like too.
-Asking why he broke up with me.
Things I’m NOT going to do:
-Argue
-Walk away without saying anything. (I’ve done this before when overwhelmed…)
-Take all the blame for what went wrong
-Ask to get back together. I do kinna want this but not sure its a good idea.
-Talk about the details of the reasons why I have the issues I do, a brief summary is ok. Worried talking details will just trigger my issues: either by making me act out anxiously or running away. Would explain that I’m happy to discuss these at a later date, and not discussing now as I don’t want to overwhelm myself.
-Criticize him!
…Cripes.
There is a lot of stuff in my head!
-Feather xx
PS- your gift. What if I list it on etsy or ebay for a nominal fee such as £1 and send you a link? I think that will keep your privacy protected. In addition, you could arrange for it to be sent to a shop or a library or someplace similar if you wish. Just an idea.
I’m a textile artist and work with shibori methods of dyeing cloth – which is why all my works are one-offs.
- This reply was modified 5 years, 12 months ago by Feathering my nest.
- This reply was modified 5 years, 12 months ago by Feathering my nest.
November 9, 2018 at 1:34 pm #236235AnonymousGuestDear Feathering:
I am losing focus and soon will be away from the computer, but I want to give you some feedback on your recent post sooner than later, knowing you plan on seeing him this weekend.
I agree with your list of what not to do. Regarding what you are not sure about: none of these is a good idea except maybe telling him you lost your voice. Regarding the list of what you are sure about: I think you listed too many things, better take off things from the list. I would limit the list to the following:
“- Admit to having an issue with anger and own it…- Explain I am willing to discuss the details…(one or two instances may be enough, continue to second or third if he shows interest, and apologize)
– However, that’s my role and I am only half of this (I would say part-of-it instead of half-of-it. I will also not expect him to reciprocate there and then and list his contributions to the troubles in the relationship, not would I pressure him to do that… bad idea!)
I will not include the “I need a partner who understands etc.” no, no, no. This is not the time for that, too early, may never be the time.
And not a good idea to ask about the other woman. I think overall you are planning way too much. Limit your objectives and even more, your expectations for this meeting. Talk way less and listen more, pay attention to what he says, hear his voice instead of what you want to say next.
Regarding the gift, I so appreciate it, but I want to maintain my record of zero material benefit to my participation here.
anita
November 9, 2018 at 1:42 pm #236237Feathering my nestParticipantThe over-planning is the anxiety talking.
Thx.
No worries RE: the gift. x
November 9, 2018 at 1:45 pm #236241AnonymousGuestThanks for the no worries comment, Feathering. I hope to read from you soon. Be back in fifteen.
anita
November 9, 2018 at 1:55 pm #236247Feathering my nestParticipantI have lost some trust in my ability to manage this situation now.
Will just keep the meeting really short.
I should throw is all out the window and have no objective or plan- beyond discussing with a view to understanding.
And maybe give him the lavender balm.
November 9, 2018 at 2:01 pm #236249AnonymousGuestDear feathering:
Don’t despair. Figure out your objective for the meeting, make it a humble objective. Maybe just giving him the gift, having eye contact and a smile is enough. Make it a pleasant meeting.
anita
November 11, 2018 at 11:42 am #236409Feathering my nestParticipantHeya Anita,
So he bailed on me at the last minute!
I had a feeling he might do this – the night before he had texted me and expressed a concern about meeting. He claimed his concern was around me and my welfare. At the time I thought this was a little bit odd and wondered if he was projecting his doubts onto me. All I said was “That was thoughtful of you.” and left it there. We had already agreed a time and place so did not think it was necessary to confirm we were still meeting.
I was really angry when he first told me he was not going to come and meet me – especially since he has left it so last minute to cancel on me. Half an hour before we were supposed to meet! He claimed to have injured himself. It is true that it was inconsiderate of him to delay telling me until the last minute. However I managed to keep a calm head and quelled the urge to tell him to fuck off. I called him once and he didn’t pick up which annoyed me. I felt ignored. In my head: He’s just cancelled on me last minute and doesn’t have the decency to even call me to tell me, or pick up his phone when I call, he’s just going to ignore me yadda yadda yadda….
So I waited a short while and sent a text asking him if he was nervous and explaining I just wanted to meet because texting is awful for proper communication and I thought we could meet to a view to understand each other better. This worked. He said he was anxious about engaging with the ‘dynamic’ he experienced again, and he agreed what I had said was reasonable. (Kinna hints at my anger issue – don’t you think?)
Then I called him and we re-arranged our plans. I made a point on the phone of opening up the conversation to discussing any further reservations he might have, which he did not. Hopefully he will be less anxious now and still meet with me on Thursday.
He did sound a bit uncomfortable on the phone.
On another issue, I contacted an old ex over the weekend who said he had loved me very much but my anger made it too difficult for him to be with me. That was sobering, I’m glad he was so straight up with me. It wasn’t discussed when we broke up. He’s happy to meet with me and talk to me about it.
Seems like I will be eating a lot of humble pie this week.
-Feathering
- This reply was modified 5 years, 12 months ago by Feathering my nest.
November 12, 2018 at 4:45 am #236475AnonymousGuestDear Feathering:
If you do meet him, plan on saying very little, smiling some, listening. Aim at a pleasant meeting, nothing more. Anger is scary and he is scared, so no alarming moves or words, go slow and gentle.
As a formerly very angry woman, probably no less angry than you, I assure you that there is no greater turn off for a man than an angry woman. The expression of anger scares people. It scares other animals, this is why a male deer will display anger toward other bucks so that they get scared and submit to his dominance in the social group. And why dogs’ angry barks and showing of teeth scare people they consider to be invading their territory.
I was not able to have relationships really for decades because of my anger. My anger earned me (later in life) the diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder which was fitting in my person and life since I first associated with men, very late teens or early twenties. It is only in the last few years that I no longer fit this diagnosis.
Projecting my own experience to yours, I would say: you will be angry at each and every man you get involved with, sooner than later. Some of the men will be jerks but you will be angry at the good ones as well, and no less. Every single man will become the enemy, sooner than later.
It is because your feeling “unloved and unappreciated” will be activated quickly in each and every beginning relationship, and then “as soon as those feelings kick in it triggers a cycle of thoughts, feelings and behaviors that are extremely difficult to stop”, your words.
I will be glad to … guide you, as a formerly Angry Woman, through the process of healing from this anger and becoming capable of a stable, loving relationship with a good albeit imperfect man. I am very humble regarding my ability to help others, nonetheless I offer it.
anita
November 12, 2018 at 8:17 am #236511Feathering my nestParticipantHello Anita,
I would love your help. Thank you. This has been more productive than my time spent in therapy.
Reading my old diaries from the past 4 years and I was watching a dog chase its tail. Trying trying trying to figure out what was going on. Unable to see it.
My therapists of past have not been very direct with me – I can see how they were trying to help me address the problem at that time but they never explained to me what they thought was going on in direct terms. (Is that unusual?)
Projecting my own experience to yours, I would say: you will be angry at each and every man you get involved with, sooner than later. Some of the men will be jerks but you will be angry at the good ones as well, and no less. Every single man will become the enemy, sooner than later.
This made me really sad.
Because my feelings of anger are so intense, I cannot tell who is a decent guy and who is not. Because my anger creates a victim mentality and a sense of entitlement, talking to my friends has only reinforced my sense of entitlement. They only get one half of the story. I think this is why that self-help rubbish has been destructive: a lot of it is quite angry. (“Forget about him he’s an asshole, love yourself!”) This has fanned the flames.It is because your feeling “unloved and unappreciated” will be activated quickly in each and every beginning relationship, and then “as soon as those feelings kick in it triggers a cycle of thoughts, feelings and behaviors that are extremely difficult to stop”, your words.
I am hopeful that now I am more aware I will be able to talk about it and mitigate the worst aspects of this.
Now seen, cannot unsee.
I am really hoping I do not have to go through multiple more heartbreaks and breakups before I have a stable relationship. I am so lonely and have been for so long already. Really suffering with it over here.
-Feathering
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