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  • #441156
    Helcat
    Participant

    The book Letting Go made a good point. It links to the cause and effect discussion John and I were having.

    Thoughts and feelings can impact outcomes in relationships. For example, reacting pensively can cause the other person to react pensively.

    I thought that this was a great insight. I’m doing my best to share my feelings the ones that I have been afraid of being rejected for incase my husband didn’t feel the same way.

    #441157
    shinnen
    Participant

    Hi Helcat,
    What has happened to your pets?
    An inoperable tumour, yikes?
    Grief, yes. I think I mentioned it, my (our) dog J.R., died in my arms about 5 years ago, and
    haven’t recovered from it yet. Oh yes, it does rub off.
    Yes, it’s amazing how sensitive animals are to our feelings.
    I’m not familiar with bet blockers.
    I’m sorry to hear you’ve had such a rough day. Maybe tomorrow will be better.
    …. john

    #441175
    shinnen
    Participant

    Hi,
    Ah yes, finding your purpose. How did that go? After 80 years, I still haven’t found mine;
    unless one considers having done what they wanted in life, as their purpose; which I do not.
    Interesting. ‘Fear provides safety’. Why, because it prevents one from taking chances?
    Again, interesting. Comfortable with suffering, because it’s what you know. It makes sense, in a way.
    “Once I understood why I was doing what I was doing, I could understand how to change it. If that makes any sense?” Oh, indeed; it makes perfect sense.
    “Limiting suffering, being happy, taking care of my health, pets and family. Spending time with loved ones. Helping people. I don’t really need much else.” Yes, that might be as good as it gets, or even has to get.
    “Things can always be worse … ” So true.
    You’re practicing Gassho, being thankful for what you have, not constantly seeking more.
    Spirituality ….. now that’s a good subject for mulling. I’m not a spiritual person, in any sense of the word; but you are.
    “I have seen people who do horrible things have good lives and be happy. I have seen good people suffer.” Indeed, we all have seen this. It is a mixed bag. There is no fairness in life.
    Oh yes, Cause and effect is very difficult to predict. I think it could be predicable, if we were able to understand the enormous number of causes and determine the influence each one has the others; but that’s WAY WAY beyond our abilities. Cause and effect is the basis of all experimentation, but on a very simple scale, nothing like what happens in real life situations.
    I’m fine. Thanks for asking.
    I can see that stepping back from your emotions is going to be a challenging process, for someone as sensitive and caring as yourself. Your feeling are a very big part of who you are; but I’m sure you can do it. I’ve always wanted to be great at something. I used to draw (pencil), and write poetry; most of which was mediocre; but became despondent after realizing that I was not gifted. However, when one looks at the great artist of history, one sees that many of them lived tortured lives. My conclusion from this is that when one lives 24/7 on their emotions (as artists often do), they are (figuratively) standing on the edge of a cliff, much of time. So, in an odd way, I’ve consoled myself with the belief that the cost of greatness is emotional instability and a life in hell. Maybe I’m kidding myself, and have simply contrived an excuse for lack of talent. Blaise Pascal, the great French philosopher said (my paraphrase) ‘Mankind is so necessarily mad, that to be otherwise would simply be another form of madness.’ A very astute observation. I believe he arrived at this conclusion after realizing that, because of our ability to anticipate our eventual demise, to function with any degree of sanity we must constantly ignore the precarious fragility of our existence. The point being that, by going down the emotional rabbit hole, (as artists often do) one is flirting with one’s sanity.
    … john
    P.S. My New Years resolution ….. ‘Watch more baseball.’ One of these years I’m going to have to get a new one😉.

    #441176
    shinnen
    Participant

    Hi Helcat,
    I’m interesting in hearing your conclusions on this ….. i. e. do others respond in a manner similar
    to your own when discussing issues.
    … john

    #441192
    Helcat
    Participant

    Hi John

    Happy New Year! I hope it brings blessings for you and your family. I’m glad to hear that you’re doing fine. 😊

    I’m sorry to hear about your beloved dog passing away in your arms. Sad thought it is, I’m sure that there was no better place for him and you brought him a lot of comfort at such a difficult time. Still, it probably doesn’t make it any easier to bear.

    All of my pets were older. I just didn’t expect them to go in the same year and thought I had more time with them.

    I also have a friend who is ill. Quite possibly dying even. In and out of the hospital and it doesn’t seem like it is going to stop.

    I guess there are many reasons why fear can provide a feeling of safety. Not having to take chances being one of them. But also, for some people a mental health issue can become their sense of identity. Thankfully, I don’t feel that way anymore.

    Would you say that you lean more to the philosophical side of things?

    It would be cool to know the intricacies of cause and effect. Oh well!

    What kind of thing do you like to draw? I’d love to read some of your poetry. I doubt it is mediocre, since you write so well.

    What do you think makes someone great at something?

    My sister is a talented artist. She has spent her entire life dedicated to art. I think it is hard to become amazing at something without sinking an awful lot of time and effort into it.

    Personally, I never understood wanting to be the best at something. I aim for good. 😂 It always seemed to me that unless you are literally at the top of your field, there is always someone better. Working hard, trying your best, having fun are all rewarding in themselves. I was also a teacher for a while. Failure is a necessary part of becoming great at something.

    Then again, art is subjective. Plenty of talented artists and poets go unrecognised while alive. Yet upon their death, their work has profound value.

    Banksy a famous graffiti artist mocks the rich for how much they are willing to pay for his art. He’s done a couple of stunts like letting people sell his art to the public on a street. And people were not willing to pay much. There was another stunt where he sold a piece of art that shredded itself after being purchased.

    An interesting idea, but not necessarily one that I agree with because I grew up understanding the fragility of life. It is scary, but life must go on and I don’t believe that suffering has a purpose in itself. Many things can be better achieved through other means. Is it truly a good idea to worry about something that is statistically unlikely to happen right now?

    I believe that people are mad for a different reason. Because life is inherently messy and traumatic. From the perspective of psychology, common occurrences are technically traumas. Some people assume that something extreme has to happen to experience trauma, it simply isn’t true though. It gives rise to the big trauma little trauma theories. Did you know it is very rare to meet someone that hasn’t experienced some kind of trauma?

    It is cheesy to say, but I think you are great at being you!

    Yes and no. If I’m expressing a negative emotion the other person is more likely to express a negative emotion too. I do believe that it depends on the individual though.

    Often, I find the way that I express myself is different from other people. I have a tendency to numb myself emotionally when talking about things I feel uncomfortable with which drives my family crazy.

    It’s not going badly with more subtle emotions which I’m thankful for. It seems like I got most of the heavy stuff out of the way.

    Love, peace and blessings! ❤️🙏

    #441193
    Helcat
    Participant

    I just had a thought about the art of doing things perfectly which is a thing in Japan. I like how it can be applied to anything. Sometimes people just really want to make amazing tempura. Sometimes there is beauty in perfection.

    #441214
    shinnen
    Participant

    Hi Helcat,
    Happy New Year to you also.
    Yes, well, J.R. (our Jack Russel) lived 17 years, so he had a good life. But …… I do miss him.
    Ah yes, identity. It’s the curse of our time. I’m sure the Buddha is rolling over in his grave😉.
    Lean toward the philosophical, yes. But, I also have a hard practical streak. I make and fix many things.
    The number of forums I’m on runs the gamut. Everything interests me. If I were to list the
    things I’ve been involved in and like doing, it would be very difficult to find a common theme.
    I (used to) draw faces and hands. Hands fascinate me. My eyes go directly to a person’s hands,
    especially women’s. There was a female doctor in the research lab, who had the most
    magnificent hands, large and strong, yet perfectly proportioned, who allowed me to draw her hands.
    Drawing a person’s hands is a very intimate experience, for me. I can feel them (figuratively) as I do it.
    OK … back to earth😉. I think to become great at something, one must be very talented, to begin with.
    Didn’t someone once say, ‘Write a million words, then come back to me and I’ll teach how you to write.’
    I wrote a lot of poetry, but most of it was, well, mediocre. I did however write a couple of good ones.
    My favourite poet Alexander Pope once said (I paraphrase). ‘For what I have published, I hope to be
    forgiven; for what I have burned, I deserve to be praised.’ He has a point there.
    I have two favourite poems. One I wrote, after spending an afternoon wondering around a small church
    cemetery, reading the tombstones. It told the story of a couple and their 7(?) children, all who died very young.
    It was a heart breaker. The other was the tribute to the poet Sappho, which I inscribed on an Aeolian harp I made,
    many years ago. I can send them to you, if you like.
    I have to admit to being something of a perfectionist, which to me means, doing my best. I’ve
    never understood the concept of hobby, and am unable to do anything in a casual manor.
    I have a friend who is very artistically inclined. She’s a former teacher, who has traveled the world,
    and lectured about her trips. She no longer does that but still runs, what I consider to be, one of the
    prominent art websites in Europe. Cedar Gallery.
    Ah yes, Banksy. He’s a very elusive/mysterious character eh? My daughter, who is covered in tattoos, beautiful
    works, has Banksy’s girl holding a read balloon on one of her thighs. It’s hard to say what motivates
    him eh? Wasn’t there one of his that caught on fire, or something like that, after being sold, or am thinking of
    the one you mentioned that was shredded? Perhaps he’s trying to imitate the Tibetan monks, who spend
    months creating magnificent mandalas, only to sweep them away.
    I know why they do it; but I tend to think that it’s the destruction of beauty.
    “Is it truly a good idea to worry about something that is statistically unlikely to happen right now?” Only if
    your trying to sell a product or service, wanting to induce fear, or are truly neurotic.
    “Some people assume that something extreme has to happen to experience trauma, it simply isn’t true…” Now,
    that’s interesting. I didn’t realize that. “Did you know it is very rare to meet someone that hasn’t experienced some kind of trauma?” Well, I guess that depends on how you define trauma? “If I’m expressing a negative emotion the other person is more likely to express a negative emotion too.” Yes, I think you implied as much in your previous post. I’ve never really thought about it; but I will now. “It seems like I got most of the heavy stuff out of the way.” Well, that’s a great achievement; and must be a hell of a big load off your shoulders?
    …. john

    #441220
    Helcat
    Participant

    Hi John

    Haha I was wondering if that was his breed or his name. 17 years is a good age. I can tell how loved he is. ❤️

    I’m a practical person and I enjoy philosophy too.

    I’m trying to teach my son to enjoy cleaning up. One of his favourite things is the vacuum cleaner because we use it a lot. I suspect he thinks we use it because we like it. In teaching him to have fun cleaning up, I have to have fun cleaning up. I didn’t foresee this turn of events. 😂

    I suspected that you might be the kind of person who is into a bit of everything. It is hard to be truly great at something if you have so many interests. But it has its upsides, being good at a number of things and being a well rounded person.

    I love the passion you have for the quotes that you share. I did actually get to listening to the broadcast about gender and health around Christmas. Fascinating stuff, thank you for recommending it! I have a thought about why there might be such a difference on the immune system based on gender. Pregnancy. The immune system has to be variable for women due to pregnancy. The immune system has to be intelligent enough to recognise the baby should not be harmed and also to react aggressively to threats to the baby. For example, people get ill. This is actually a known cause of autism, being unwell during pregnancy. There are actually quite a lot of changes that the female body has to go through as a result of pregnancy. After breastfeeding, the tissue dies and returns back to the original state. To even carry a child your muscles and ligaments need to stretch. Organs get squished together in the third trimester. And the amount of blood in the body increases dramatically to support the growing life. It’s a very damaging and gruelling process. At the same time, healing capabilities are improved to try and combat that damage.

    To be fair, I think a lot of creative types produce a variety of quality. It would be hard for everything to be exceptional. I’m not surprised that you have some good ones. If you feel comfortable sharing, I would love to read them. 😊

    Apologies is going to have to be a two parter.

    Love, peace and blessings! ❤️🙏

    #441226
    shinnen
    Participant

    Hi,
    Yes, he was loved.
    Oh, he likes vacuuming. Now that IS a real blessing. You should take full advantage of this opportunity😉.
    You’re right, I do have my favourite quotes; and they’re all ones I believe to be insightful.
    Here’s another, “My best art resulted when I’d given up trying to create my best art.”
    Your ideas about pregnancy and the female immune system makes a lot of sense. I’ve always felt that ‘mother’
    Nature’s only priority is the propagation of life, and your theory would seem to fit that belief.
    Yes, pregnancy is a grueling experience for many women, but some just float through it, unaware.
    Right, everyone can’t be exceptional; because if everyone were exceptional, no one would be exceptional🙂.
    … john

    #441250
    Helcat
    Participant

    Hi John

    Apologies, I don’t have much time to write at the moment because my son has been having difficulties sleeping since he has been ill. I’m at the stage where I’m exhausted because he was up every hour last night. We’re trying dropping a nap and seeing how that goes.

    I’m sure that I’ll be able to write properly again soon. Last time I was literally falling asleep writing which is why I had to cut it short.

    Love, peace and blessings! ❤️🙏

    #441251
    Helcat
    Participant

    Something came up today. It was wondering why some things are easier for me to let go than others. Why was I resistant to it? This floated around in my head a bit.

    I realised that there was a feeling of deserving it. Letting the feeling be and watching it came up. Self-hatred. Sitting with the feeling and watching but not interacting a memory came up. I feel like that was why I started hating myself.

    My mother hated us for ruining her life and wished that we didn’t exist. She was punishing us for existing and for making her life more difficult. The hatred was instilled by her.

    Next, anger came up. Anger at my mother. As a mother myself, I can’t imagine treating a child that way. No matter how difficult things are.

    The two feelings meld together, like yin and yang at the core of my being.

    I was able to comfort myself. I think looking after my son I’m starting to develop a supportive mummy voice. That’s new.

    Earlier in the day I was feeling a bit down and like since having a baby I have lost touch with myself. Everything I felt confident in about myself is now gone. I didn’t know what to like about myself now because I don’t want to centre myself entirely around my son.

    But what came up later in the day answered my own question. I think that kind voice inside of me who supported myself is something to like about myself.

    It was just sitting and watching the emotions unfold and letting go. It is funny how thoughts just chug along by themselves sometimes. I realised that I identify with them too much.

    Technically, these feelings of self-hatred are not even technically mine. They are within me, but they are a recording of what happened in my childhood. And the anger, a recording of what I felt in my childhood.

    I couldn’t express anger as a child because it was too dangerous.

    #441259
    shinnen
    Participant

    Hi Helcat,
    There is absolutely no urgency. Take your time, look after yourself and your son, that’s what’s important.
    …… john

    #441262
    shinnen
    Participant

    Hi Helcat,
    Yes, I can see why you would hate yourself when you felt that you were responsible for your mother’s misery. That’s a lot of guilt to carry around. Your mother made her choices in life; and because she wouldn’t take responsibility for them, she decided shift the blame for you, for HER decisions. That is not right. Don’t accept that guilt. It isn’t yours.
    …. john

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