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November 21, 2024 at 12:48 pm in reply to: The phenomenon of “helping someone excessively can make them turn against you” #439601anitaParticipant
Dear Arden:
I came across a poem yesterday, and I thought of sending it to you because it fits you:
“In the quiet of the night, where shadows play, And the silence whispers what hearts cannot say,
Know that even in the darkest of days, There’s a light within you, guiding your way.
Your heart feels heavy, burdened with care, The weight of the world, too much to bear.
Yet in the midst of pain, there’s a spark, A reminder that hope still ignites in the dark.
When love feels distant, and solace is scarce, Remember, dear soul, you are strong and fierce.
In the echoes of doubt, find your inner voice, A whisper of strength, a reason to rejoice.
Though the path seems lonely, you’re never alone, For within you lies a courage well-known.
Take each step forward, with grace and with might, For brighter tomorrows are born from this fight.
Let the tears flow freely, let the heart mend, For in brokenness, there’s a chance to transcend.
Embrace the journey, with all that it brings, For you are resilient, a soul with wings.
In the quiet of the night, hold on to your grace, With each breath you take, find a serene space.
Know that you are cherished, valued, and dear, And with each new dawn, let go of your fear.
May you find comfort in the love that remains, In the strength of your spirit, despite the pains.
For you are a warrior, with a heart so true, And brighter days will come, just for you.”
anita
anitaParticipantDear John/ Everyone:
The quotes you offered, John, on another thread: “Life is not a problem to be solved, but a reality to be experienced”, “Life is NOT about seeking shelter from the storms; life is about learning to dance in the rain”,
Right above: “Gassho… The premise of the practice is that, as humans, we constantly desire: something more, somewhere else, to be with someone else, to be thinking something else, to be someone else, to be feeling something else, to be doing something else. It seems to be our nature, as humans, to be discontent“- very well said, John, if you don’t mind me saying so.
Gassho (online) is a traditional gesture of respect and gratitude used particularly within Buddhism and Japanese traditions. It involves placing the palms of the hands together in front of the chest, with the fingers pointing upwards, and slightly bowing the head. It is a way to show humility, respect and gratitude. The act of bringing the hands together symbolizes unity and connection, both with oneself and with others, acknowledgment of the interconnectedness of all beings, helping individuals to cultivate a sense of inner peace.
I am adding (from online): Radical acceptance is a concept rooted in mindfulness and dialectical behavior therapy (DBT). It involves fully accepting reality as it is, without judgment or resistance, even if it is difficult or painful. Key principles of Radical Acceptance: 1. Recognizing and accepting the reality of the present moment, including any pain, discomfort, or unpleasant emotions, without trying to change or deny it. 2. Releasing the urge to fight against or resist the reality of the situation. Resistance often leads to increased suffering and prevents healing. 3. Approaching the present moment with a non-judgmental attitude, accepting experiences as they are without labeling them as “good” or “bad.” 4. Practicing self-compassion and understanding that it is natural to feel pain and distress. Embracing oneself with kindness and patience during challenging times.
By accepting reality, individuals can Reduce the additional suffering that comes from resisting or denying painful experiences, Regulate emotions, Respond to distressing situations more calmly and effectively, Face challenges with greater resilience and adaptability, and Experience healthier relationships by fostering empathy, understanding, and non-judgmental communication.”
I am posting all this because I need to practice all that is mentioned here, today and every day. I want to commit myself to living by these principle and practices. Thank you, John (and I do not expect a reply, so it’s okay either way).
anita
anitaParticipantDear Jana:
You are welcome! “I understand that you imply that I put myself in the fawn role. It might be true (?)“- no, I was not implying (that is, suggesting something indirectly), no. I did a study on the fawn response, and shared it with you (similarly to what I did earlier this very morning on your other thread: a study on another topic).
In my recent post on this thread, I looked at my own behavior and my mother’s in regard to the fawn response and left it up to you to see if any of the information applies to you (I was thinking in regard to the neighbor you shared about), if you cared to.
“I never tried to please her… I never agreed with anything negative she said. I corrected her when she gossiped others and I simply said that I had to leave when she didn’t stop her behaviour… I wanted to support her, not to please her“-
– doesn’t read like the fawn response in regard to your mother. You tried to help her.
“I didn’t agree with the other neighbour who fight against the landfill site here. Her way of solving conflicts includes arguing, creating drama, exerting pressure on others, manipulating others to fight for her side… that’s not for me“- no fawn response here when it comes to the neighbor either. You stood up for your position, not for hers.
“This is a note for me to remember / come back later to:… to do:…”- I will leave this for you to return to later then.
“– A Message to Those Who Love Me –… My boyfriend I am very happy and lucky that I have a supportive and loving partner. Your life wasn’t easy. (life in poverty, beatings… Still, you never gave up… you never grew bitter. You are strong, stable and open-hearted…. Our dog… and you tried so hard to fetch me your favourite ball… Our cat You are the wisest of us all. Buddha cat. My little tiger…. From now, I’ll take better care of you all.“-
– This is BEAUTIFUL, Jana, Inspiring, thank you for sharing this here!
anita
anitaParticipant* I didn’t mean for the 2nd question to appear in bigger print..
anitaParticipantDear Rising Flower:
I want to better address your questions in this post:
* “Now, why I’m unable to move away from him despite he mistreated me several times…“?
Possible answers: (1) Emotional attachment can make it incredibly difficult to move away from someone, even when they mistreat you. This attachment is often rooted in deep emotional connections and past experiences that create a strong bond,
(2) The Hope that L might change or finally leave his marriage can keep you hanging on, despite the negative experiences.
(3) Sometimes, a lower sense of self-worth and the fear of being alone can contribute to staying in an unhealthy relationship.
* “Why I’m still waiting for him to turn up as he is genuinely taking time to break his marriage that he never wanted to be in”?
Possible answers: (1) Belief in His Promises: It’s natural to hold on to the belief that L will eventually follow through on his promises, especially if he has been convincing and manipulative.
(2) Emotional Investment: Having invested so much time and emotion into the relationship, it can be hard to let go and start over.
Final thoughts: It is important for you to recognize that your feelings are valid and that you have the strength and resilience to overcome this challenging period. Healing takes time, but taking small steps toward self-care and personal growth, you can create a better future for yourself.
Seeking support from a quality therapist or counselor can help you navigate this challenging situation. Building self-worth, setting healthy boundaries, and surrounding yourself with supportive people can also make a significant difference in your journey towards healing and finding a healthier relationship.
Here is a little poem for you: “Each step you take, each breath you draw, Reveals the courage in your core. For you are more than pain and fears, A soul that shines through endless tears. With every dawn, a chance to start, To heal and mend your precious heart. Embrace the love that lies within, And let your journey now begin.
“For you are worthy, brave, and true, A warrior spirit, through and through. The road ahead may twist and bend, But know your strength will never end. So rise, dear heart, and take your place, With grace and beauty, embrace the space. For you are more than you can see, a Rising Flower”.
anita
anitaParticipant* I just submitted a reply to you on your other thread, but it went into moderation because the red heart emoji came out huge. Here’s the post, again, without an emoji, let’s see ifit works:
Dear Jana:
You are welcome! “I understand that you imply that I put myself in the fawn role. It might be true (?)“- no, I was not implying (that is, suggesting something indirectly), no. I did a study on the fawn response, and shared it with you (similarly to what I did earlier this very morning on your other thread: a study on another topic).
In my recent post on this thread, I looked at my own behavior and my mother’s in regard to the fawn response and left it up to you to see if any of the information applies to you (I was thinking in regard to the neighbor you shared about), if you cared to.
“I never tried to please her… I never agreed with anything negative she said. I corrected her when she gossiped others and I simply said that I had to leave when she didn’t stop her behaviour… I wanted to support her, not to please her“-
– doesn’t read like the fawn response in regard to your mother. You tried to help her.
“I didn’t agree with the other neighbour who fight against the landfill site here. Her way of solving conflicts includes arguing, creating drama, exerting pressure on others, manipulating others to fight for her side… that’s not for me“- no fawn response here when it comes to the neighbor either. You stood up for your position, not for hers.
“This is a note for me to remember / come back later to:… to do:…”- I will leave this for you to return to later then.
“– A Message to Those Who Love Me –… My boyfriend I am very happy and lucky that I have a supportive and loving partner. Your life wasn’t easy. (life in poverty, beatings… Still, you never gave up… you never grew bitter. You are strong, stable and open-hearted…. Our dog… and you tried so hard to fetch me your favourite ball… Our cat You are the wisest of us all. Buddha cat. My little tiger…. From now, I’ll take better care of you all. –
– This is BEAUTIFUL, Jana, Inspiring, thank you for sharing this here!
anita
anitaParticipantDear Jana:
“I love animals and I don’t think that they are on a lower level than we are“- I want to explore the idea that animals are on a lower level than humans, to conduct a study this morning. I figure it’d be okay with you, Jana (and please correct me if I am wrong) because I think it’d be helpful for me and for others, and you don’t have to read and/ or reply to it, so it shouldn’t be a burden for you..? 🙂
Study: Many animals exhibit remarkable intelligence, emotional depth, and social structures. For example, dolphins, elephants, and some primates have demonstrated self-awareness, problem-solving skills, and strong social bonds. But humans possess way more advanced cognitive abilities than other animals, including complex language, abstract thinking, a very, very advanced and fast-advancing technological capability as well as advanced social structures.
So, as far as cognitive abilities, social structures, and especially technology, animals are on a lower level.
Research has shown that the brain structures involved in emotions, such as the amygdala, are present in many animals, suggesting that they experience emotions in ways similar to humans. Rats have been found to exhibit empathy by freeing trapped companions. Elephants are known to show empathy and compassion, often comforting distressed members of their herd. Dolphins and dogs exhibit joy and playfulness, engaging in activities purely for fun. Chimpanzees and whales have been observed mourning the loss of their companions. Many animals experience fear and anxiety, which can be seen in their behavior during stressful situations.
Many people often perceive fish as non-feeling animals, largely due to a lack of visible emotional expressions and the perception that they have simpler nervous systems compared to mammals and birds. Unlike pets such as dogs and cats, fish are less interactive and harder to relate to emotionally. People often don’t have the same level of familiarity with fish behaviors. Fish lack facial expressions and vocalizations that are commonly associated with emotions in other animals, making it harder for people to recognize their emotional states. Historically, fish have been viewed primarily as food or commodities rather than sentient beings with emotional lives. For a long time, scientific research on fish emotions was limited. Recent studies have started to reveal the complexity of fish behaviors and their capacity for emotions, but this information is not yet widely known or accepted.
But studies have shown that fish can experience pain and stress. They have the necessary nervous system structures, including nociceptors (pain receptors), to feel pain. Fish also exhibit stress responses to adverse conditions, such as changes in water quality or the presence of predators. Fish demonstrate behaviors indicative of fear and anxiety. For example, they may hide, swim erratically, or display changes in coloration when threatened or stressed. Fish engage in various social behaviors, such as forming schools, establishing territories, and displaying courtship rituals. These behaviors suggest that fish can recognize and interact with other individuals, indicating a level of social awareness. Fish are capable of learning from their experiences and can remember specific locations, other fish, and even human caretakers. This ability to learn and remember implies a level of cognitive and emotional processing.
Understanding that fish can experience pain, stress, and other emotions has implications for how they are treated in various settings, such as fishing, aquaculture, and aquarium care. Ensuring the well-being of fish involves providing appropriate living conditions, minimizing stress, and handling them humanely.
In summary, while fish may not have emotions as complex as humans, they do exhibit behaviors and physiological responses that suggest they have basic emotional capacities. Recognizing their emotional lives can help us treat them with greater compassion and care.
About Sadism, defined as deriving pleasure from inflicting pain or suffering on others, is a complex behavior that is primarily associated with humans. However, some animal behaviors might appear sadistic, though they are usually driven by survival instincts rather than deriving pleasure from causing pain. For example, domestic cats often play with their prey before killing it. While this might seem sadistic, it’s generally understood as a way for cats to practice their hunting skills and ensure the prey is incapacitated. In some cases, chimpanzees have been observed engaging in aggressive behaviors towards other chimpanzees or animals. These behaviors are usually related to social dominance, territorial disputes, or resource competition rather than deriving pleasure from causing pain, behaviors that are driven by instinctual needs such as hunting, social hierarchy, or survival. The concept of sadism, as understood in human psychology, involves a level of self-awareness and intent that is not typically attributed to animals.
Humans’ aggression is similar to the aggression of other animals when related to social dominance, territorial disputes, or resource competition, but it is more complex than animal aggression when it comes to motivations, such as ideology and revenge.
Humans have the cognitive ability to plan and execute aggressive acts with intent and forethought. This pre-meditation adds a layer of complexity to human aggression. Social conditioning, media, and upbringing influence how and when individuals express aggression. Human aggression can manifest in numerous forms, including physical violence, verbal abuse, psychological manipulation, and cyberbullying.
Verbal abuse (using shaming, derogatory words), guilt-tripping, cyberbullying are not forms of animal aggression, but of human aggression, which is more complex in its forms of expression.
Because of human technological superiority, human aggression, and greed, result in massive, global destruction: violent crime, gangs, corruption, terrorism, wars.. physical injuries and deaths of millions of people.. destruction of natural resources, pollution, illnesses related to pollution, climate change disasters, and more.
In summary, human aggression involves higher cognitive processes, including planning, abstract thinking, and moral judgment. It is deeply influenced by social and cultural factors, whereas animal aggression is more instinctual and biologically driven. It is more straightforward and related to survival needs.
Many religious traditions place humans above animals, often viewing humans as having dominion over animals. This belief can be traced back to ancient texts and teachings, such as Genesis 1:26-28 (NIV): “Then God said, ‘Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.’ So God created mankind in his own image… God blessed them and said to them, ‘… fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground”-
Anthropocentrism is the belief that human beings are the central or most significant entities in the world. This perspective often leads to the devaluation of non-human life and ecosystems, and animals have traditionally been viewed as commodities rather than sentient beings with intrinsic value. The rise of industrial farming and mass production has further reinforced the notion of animals as resources to be exploited for human benefit. In modern, urbanized societies, people are often disconnected from nature and the animals within it. This disconnection can lead to a lack of empathy and understanding of the sentience and emotional lives of animals.
Animal rights and welfare movements advocate for the recognition of animals’ intrinsic value and their right to live free from suffering and exploitation. These movements have helped raise awareness and change attitudes towards animals. Increasing scientific research on animal cognition, behavior, and emotions has revealed the complexity and richness of animal lives, leading to a greater appreciation of their intrinsic value.
– End of Study, and back to your post:
“I read this thought: “The doctrine of karma implies that souls are reborn as animals because of past misdeeds. Being reborn as an animal is a serious spiritual setback…“– I did the above study before reading this line
“I love this idea much more: Buddhists see human and non-human animals as closely related: * both have Buddha-nature… I do respect animals. I’ve always had a close relationship with them. And even though I don’t call myself vegetarian (because when somebody offers meat to me for lunch/dinner, I accept it.), I don’t like eating meat. It feels bad…“- I live in a area where many people raise cows and I often walk by them. As I do, sometimes they stop what they are doing and stare at me walking, creating eye-contact. Because I often walk the same route, I see calves as they grow up. I know that they are raised for food (like you, I accept meat (beef) when offered to me, but I don’t seek it and hardly ever it .. maybe I’ll stop altogether), but walking by them for years now, they are indeed sentient beings: Conscious, Aware, Perceptive, Feeling animals.. like me.
anita
anitaParticipantDear Jana:
It’s been ❄️-ing on the (taller) mountains around here for the last few days, and it’s very cold.
“I am glad that you are happy in the US. Can I ask – do you have someone who can support and protect you?… I mean, someone who treats you kindly today“- thank you, and yest, I do. I am married to a very caring, decent, honorable person, and have been for a long time. Also, I socialize in-real-life with 1-2 dozen people on a regular basis, although not enough. I am very social in-real-life. I crave socialization and can’t have enough of it.
“EFT is great. I am still using… you can find tens of people who teach it online on YouTube.“- being awake last night, I tapped my forehead and it didn’t make a difference. I am going to search you tube for instructions. It didn’t cross my mind that it’s taught on you tube, so thank you for the suggestion!
anita
anitaParticipantInspirational/ comforting words:
“In the quiet of the night, where shadows play, And the silence whispers what hearts cannot say,
Know that even in the darkest of days, There’s a light within you, guiding your way.
Your heart feels heavy, burdened with care, The weight of the world, too much to bear.
Yet in the midst of pain, there’s a spark, A reminder that hope still ignites in the dark.
When love feels distant, and solace is scarce, Remember, dear soul, you are strong and fierce.
In the echoes of doubt, find your inner voice, A whisper of strength, a reason to rejoice.
Though the path seems lonely, you’re never alone, For within you lies a courage well-known.
Take each step forward, with grace and with might, For brighter tomorrows are born from this fight.
Let the tears flow freely, let the heart mend, For in brokenness, there’s a chance to transcend.
Embrace the journey, with all that it brings, For you are resilient, a soul with wings.
In the quiet of the night, hold on to your grace, With each breath you take, find a serene space.
Know that you are cherished, valued, and dear, And with each new dawn, let go of your fear.
May you find comfort in the love that remains, In the strength of your spirit, despite the pains.
For you are a warrior, with a heart so true, And brighter days will come, just for you.”
anita
anitaParticipantDear Rising Flower:
I didn’t thoroughly read your original post yesterday, but I will read and summarize today (your exact words are boldfaced) before further commenting:
You shared yesterday that your spirit is broken and it took courage for you to post your story for fear of being harshly judged. You shared that in your late 20s (ten years ago), you were a naive girl who never was into any kind of relationships. At that time you were arranged to marry a very nice guy who is very kind and caring (H).
Within less than 2 years of marriage, you fell for a family friend (L). If I understand correctly, L was married but separated at the time, but he didn’t share that piece of information. You fell in love, and being true to how you felt, you walked out of your marriage- against the expectations and norms of your parents, friends and greater community- and moved in with L. Facing stress from without (parents, friends) and within (fights over him wanting to have children with you and you wanting to get divorced first, as well as fights over L’s disapproval of who you were speaking with), you fell into deep depression and being that you and L had to vacate the house you were living in, you moved back to your parents’ home. After a short while, you moved back with L.
You felt lots of love from L, but you also felt his extreme anger issues during fights in which he blamed you for not honoring his requests. At one point (you and L were not living together), L started to look for another woman to marry because you didn’t agree to have a child with him (before getting a divorce from H).
Sometime during that time, you found out that L was older than he said he was, and that he was married!!!!! (a 2nd time, if I understand correctly). Almost 10 days into L’s new marriage, he told you that this marriage was the biggest mistake he has done and he blamed you for not stopping him from getting married.
A short time later, you accidently met him, and you melt for him again!!! At one point you got pregnant by him and miscarried. Currently, he says he wants to break that marriage but needs time. Currently, you love him still: Love for him never left me… still love him genuinely, I did always, you wrote.
“Now, why I’m unable to move away from him despite he mistreated me several times… Why I’m still waiting for him to turn up as he is genuinely taking time to break his marriage that he never wanted to be in. Deep down, I knew he is bad for me but unable to kill my love for him, please know that I’m ok to go away from him if he is fine in his marriage and I’m not obsessive for him, I find myself melting my life at every stage for him and bearing and paying for the cost of his mistakes (if not blunders) in his life..“-
– seems to me that this man, L, represents to you (to your heart)- not a strong man who can help you- but a boy who needs you to help him. Seems to me (and of course, I may be wrong), that in your heart: L is different from H and from other adults you’ve known, controlled adults who follow social expectations and norms of behavior.
L is more like you, and you are like him: a free spirit, perhaps (someone who lives according to their own rules, someone unconventional), someone authentic (a person who is true to themselves and expresses their genuine thoughts and feelings), a maverick (someone who doesn’t conform to the usual way of doing things), someone unpretentious (someone who is sincere, without the need for pretense), someone naive, childlike.. like you are inwardly, if not outwardly..?
Sometimes the social pressure to conform, to obey social norms, kills that element within- the free-spirited child within- so much so, that a hunger is born, a hunger to reclaim that which was taken away (by traditional parents and society). Maybe you and L share this hunger (although unfortunately, the two of you don’t cooperate well in the quest of satisfying this hunger)..?
anita
anitaParticipantDear Mahvash:
You are very welcome, and thank you for expressing your appreciation- which I am touched by! It is just a matter of time before you see the ray of light again and stand strong. I hope that it’d be sooner than later. I am here for you!
anita
anitaParticipantDear Tom:
You are very welcome and thank you for keeping me posted. On the topic of gratitude (online) : “In the quiet moments of dawn’s early light, Gratitude whispers, softening the night. With each breath we take and every step we tread, A heart filled with thanks, where happiness is bred.
“In the dance of the leaves on a cool autumn breeze, Or the warmth of the sun through the canopy of trees, Gratitude blooms in the simplest of sights, Turning mundane moments into pure delights”.
anita
anitaParticipantDear Mahvash:
The name you chose is derived from Persian, where “mah” means “moon” and “vash” is a suffix meaning “like” or “resembling.” Thus, Mahvash translates to “moon-like” or “as beautiful as the moon.”
The moon is often associated with beauty, tranquility, and a gentle light that guides through darkness. Therefore, the name Mahvash conveys a sense of elegance, beauty, and calmness.
You wrote two days ago: “even in the group of people I feel I am the worst person who have no smile and happiness“- may you see the gentle light within you once again, and may it lead you through the current darkness in your marriage. Please do return here, to your thread, anytime you’d like to share about the darkness around and the light and beauty within you.
anita
anitaParticipantDear Jana:
“– My Fear of People –… She carried on with her outburst of anger. (her typical behaviour)… I automatically feel that I am the bad one * I feel guilty… I do feel fear of her… I knew that there was something wrong about her since the day number one and I was highly cautious around her… like my instincts were all on alert: ‘Be careful.’ * Still, I didn’t listen to my instincts and feelings but I told myself: ‘I should be more compassionate… I should help..’… (She) was critical all the time – anything we did or didn’t do was simply wrong * blamed me for… everything and anything… I won’t take care of anyone like this anymore. I can’t and I shouldn’t… I just let myself carry away because of this fear of these toxic people. I need to fix it for good. And I need to trust my feelings and instincts again (they were always right!)”-
– I would like to share the following with you, Jana:
The fawn response is one of the four primary trauma responses, alongside fight, flight, and freeze. It typically develops as a coping mechanism for individuals who have experienced prolonged exposure to stressful or abusive environments. The fawn response is a survival strategy. It involves people-pleasing (constantly trying to please others, even at the expense of your own needs and desires), avoiding Conflict (going to great lengths to avoid confrontation and maintain harmony, often by agreeing with others or submitting to their demands), and self-Sacrifice (prioritizing others’ needs over your own, leading to a lack of self-care and personal boundaries).
Practicing the fawn response on a regular basis leads to anxiety (constant worry about how others perceive you and striving to meet their expectations), depression (feeling overwhelmed and unappreciated due to the lack of reciprocation and self-care), and burnout (exhaustion from continuously putting others’ needs before your own).
The fawn response in humans can be likened to the behavior of a dog going belly up in front of an aggressor. Both actions are forms of submissive behavior aimed at diffusing a potentially threatening situation and preventing further conflict or aggression. For dogs, exposing their belly is a way of showing submission and non-threatening behavior, signaling to the aggressor that they pose no threat.
Back to humans/ me: my mother (yes, a very dominant person in my life..) was a huge fawn responder with other adults, going belly up, so to speak, big time- in front of them, and suppressing her anger and frustration while in their company. Over time, these suppressed emotions build up, creating internal stress and tension within her… and this is where I fit in: my job was to be there for her to express her otherwise suppressed anger and frustration in two ways: (1) venting her anger at the people she went belly up for outside their presence, and (2) expressing her anger directly at me, a girl who she didn’t fear. She felt unsafe and powerless in the company of other adults; she felt safe and powerful in my company.
Blaming and accusing behavior (my mother’s behavior and your neighbor’s) can be about exerting power and control over the blamed/ the accused. It is an emotional manipulation tactic: making the manipulated person feel guilty and fearful, which makes him/ her compliant and submissive.
anita
anitaParticipantcorrection: Can you define the words/ terms I boldfaced above, as in giving your personal, authentic, clear, simple-to-understand definitions of…
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