Hello Anita,

What came to my mind as I processed your responses is the following: i don’t really mean to ask “how” do you get rid of that pattern, and accept it live it sink in etc. -because as you said that is the most difficult task – and requires endless patience.  What I mean is more feedback on the following:

“As you sleep, your mother (her mental rep) appears above your bed and says: But look there! There is something missing here, something wrong here, look there!” and so you wake up to her voice and you look there.

But there is nothing there, nothing better. It was good where you were, sleeping.”

….

But in reality that’s not true, instead i DO LOOK THERE. and I DO see yes this is wrong, yes that is wrong…

these may be mundane small things not overall picture, but yes i DO see this and become overwhelmed by it

such as going to sleep after a nice day, as above, nice relaxing evening, then waking up to that voice as you describe – then the mind does find things that are “wrong” (examples…of my thoughts and where the brain goes in these moments/rumination)

-oh so that friend that usually is so responsive, hasn’t been – hmm is something wrong? hmm probably not. well why do people waiver so much in their responsiveness – that seems unfair and disappointing – wait are these people selfish, or wait am i foolish for being consistent  in my approach-hmm (and then going down that cycle) this type of thinking is a big one

-there’s more like above but just wanted to list an example of – something that say would “trigger” me to think YES see calichica there is something wrong, the voice is right – gosh now im a tight anxious knot of course i am awake and feeling like this…

so – this is more of my direct question, I “wake” and look over there and am told look something is wrong (when in reality it isn’t) yet i look there- and i do see something that is not right…

Hello,

Thank you so much. I like how from the beginning of your post you brought my mother’s voice up. You made it evident to me that even though I think I’m thinking clearly or for myself it is tainted by this guilt and burden I have obtained from the aforementioned mother’s voice.

This part resonated with me so well. It was what I was searching for over night- those words and that concept: the paragraph of things were good while I was sleeping, however waking up Her voice saying “something is missing” etc.

My question to you then. Is that I journal I have seseen a therapist I do believe I have awareness. But I would like some feedback from you as to – how? How (based on the example above almoat as a metaphor if you will) do I say to myself no – I am sleeping and I feel peaceful because everything IS fine, and no I don’t need to wake up and have endless rumination and worry about what is wrong and find things that are wrong….

The reason why there are women who would not ruminate about the flakey friends is because they have a different voice reactivated in their brains.

So my focus now will be to start having a different voice in my brain, it will take effort and time, because as you said the formative years were influenced so heavily by this.

what are some tips you recommend for allowing myself to have less of this voice being reactivated in my brain. ? I always like your approach. I understand what you mean about reality – so I see it is not about reality itself, but the voice in my brain that brings me to negative, and rumination

i have started reading “Buddha’s Brain” which focuses a lot on this re-wiring.  I will also be starting CBT.

Thank you for the above responses, I truly appreciate them.

I was wondering your input @anita.

I have made major progress with the above, and allowing myself to not take everything she takes to heart so to speak.  My major struggle is that now I MYSELF, can be quite negative.  It’s like if 40 people come to your event, you fixate on the one that flaked.  If your most valuable friend throws you a great party, you focus on the 3 flakey friends who decided not to show  And so on – I guess the theme is simply focusing outward not inward, focusing on the less important thiings and people instead of the most valuable.  having a great abundant life, but being unable to find true happiness as the mind wanders to what is “not there”

Dear Anita,

Thank you – this was the exact thing I was looking to read. I like how you explain that this question of guilt or innocence is a theoretical one. It reminds me in a way that we are so small in the universe, and that this thought is sometimes to reassuring. It is not MY job/struggle/responsibility to determine say if someone is guilty or blameworthy for bad behavior and should be “charged/looked at” in that way.
That in a way does remove burden off of my sister and I as well (as long as we remind ourselves of this).

I am happy to hear you were just thinking of us. As above, we always carry your wisdom with us. So in short since we last wrote – as expected things have gotten worse and worse. I found myself at rock bottom and in a place that it was destroying me, and feeling the true signs of depression. This of course not only affects me, but also my fiance (who is now currently struggling himself – a grounded happy person now torn by this too of course).

I have not talked to my mother in 3 weeks. It started off as a normal conversation 3 weeks ago before Xmas, and then when my sister went over to my parents on Xmas day they were: cold, icy, and almost ignored her. My sister and I were invited to my fiances Xmas party with his family, and my mother knew this. (During thanksgiving she RUINED our holiday because when she found out I would stop by at my future in laws last minute prior to arriving home she felt it was rude it was last minute and it was just because my future MIL was trying to lure me in last minute and has no regards for my and my fiance’s space).
So when Xmas came around I had made it a point to my mother that i would not allow this same thing to happen again. I decided I wasn’t going to go home to my parents house for Xmas at all – and only go to my fiances family’s party. This took a lot for me, and I felt extremely guilty – but I also felt that I deserved to enjoy this holiday in peace, and I knew that if I avoided going home I would have peace so I should ALLOW myself that.
My sister did go home as I wrote above, and they projected their anger towards me onto her and were very cold and odd. They, by the way, are also convinced that I and my fiances family are also brainwashing my sister against them.

I sent my parents a Merry Xmas text that day, no response. My sister told me how odd they were being while she was there – so I had an idea that something bad was brewing. Needless to say it is 3 weeks later. She called me on Thursday (a few days ago). I for the first time in my life allowed myself to make a choice of whether I should pick up. I texted her I would call her back, to which I got a barrage of questioning: what time, why so late?, ok fine then just call later. From assertive questioning to the old “ok fine if you don’t have time for your mother it’s fine.”

My mother proceeded to then call my sister. It goes sommething like this: how are you? my sister answers and then she totally cuts her off and starts hysterically: 19 DAYS 19 days what did i do so wrong for my own daughter to not talk to me for 19 days.
we know its HIM (fiance) brainwashing her not to talk to us – well in that case she shouldnt talk to his parents either
our own daughter we raised for 31 years now turned against us.
she then proceeded to say how shes told all my aunts and uncles how horrible ive become and abandoned her own parents who have given everything for her – and tells my sister, all aunts and uncles are on their side and are saying “wow what an ungrateful daughter”
my sister mentions well maybe its not him who is MAKING her not talk to youu – maybe its her decision, after all she is an adult. MY mother could absolutely not fathom that – to this she responded: “well why would your sister not want to talk to us on her own.”

After I heard this, I felt an even deeper sense of not wanting to speak to her…NO desire to call her back.

Dear Peppermint, thank you for your kind words – unfortunately, and you can read above, my parents are a force that cannot be reckoned with – they are insconsolabe unreasonable people that have truly gone down the deep end – the focus now is how do my sister and i maintain sanity and try for personal damage control.

Dear Anita,

You could not be more right. I may not know you in real life, but you helped my sister and I through yesterday- we had your guidance in mind. I almost imagined you watching all of it from the outside and shaking your head and thinking wow – exactly what I expected, I told you so (in the most supportive of ways).
As my sister said above, yesterday was a perfect microcosm of their insanity, abuse, and psychosis. Almost textbook.

Myself, fiance, and his parents (who i will just call in laws to make it easier) – went along with their plan for a family meeting – for no true reason but to end the constant stalking and harassment since last week’s fight – about their NEED for us to all meet today, constant calls text messages about the necessity, i tried to say it wasn’t a good idea for us today and of course they could not understand. during that conversation i attemmpted the “power over” technique. what became of that was insane hysteria screaming saying “now that youre all grown up and you make your own money, you don’t need us this is what you do, then say we are not going to come to this engagement party next week.
(background about engagement party – culturally the guys side throws it, his mom wanted to do something small, but my mom created INSANITY over that approach 6 months ago and FORCED his parents to have a large engagement party – so this is 200 people at this nice venue, and the beginning of the party will be a short religious ceremony with parents – which she INSISTED had to be a certain way – money is not the focus, but this is pretty much like a mini wedding next weekend and costs as much as most peoples weddings! ok back to now)
so she hangs up the phone. she immediately calls my MIL and cries and screams and says they are so hurt, they wont be coming to engagement party and will have to tell all their friends not to (half the guest list). during this time i am sitting in horror and talking to my sister, and we say to ourselves wow – just as expected it is getting worse and worse and worse. how can we at least get through this next week – and if for nothing for the inlaws to not have a fiasco at this party – minds racing.

my mom calls back a few minutes later SOBBING, OPPOSITE DEMEANOR, saying” sorry i don’t know what i have done to you but i am sorry forgive me, i love you and i want all of this okay, we are going to have a good meeting tomorrow and patch everything up – and proceed in such a nice way and go to india (mind you my mother, father, and i are booked to go to india on Dec.2 for 3 weeks for wedding shopping). then she puts my dad on the line who is equally hysterical and apologetic. i say so did you call the in laws and say youre not coming?!?! she says yes, i ask why – she says i was emmotional it happens its ok.

ok fine – breath in breath out. they are crazy but lets have a breather. we all kind of put this aside for a secon and think these psychos are uncontrollable but at this moment we can go along with meeting, and at least for in laws sake have a normal engagement party who knows.

fast forward 4 hours. its around 11 pm and i had just fell asleep watching a movie, geta phone call and i say in my head its fine ill call that person back tomorrow, then callsagain, so i abruptly wake up and think who is calling so late must be urgent.
pick up – it’s my mother (gone back to first demeanor – raging bull). shes says as my sister said above, that my dad is ill from all this and having chest pain – so as a doctor i say ok take him to the ER, we can come right now, she says “not that kind of chest pain.”
of course the convenient kind of chest pain to scare everyone, but not the true kind? insanity
she then goes on to say she cant make this meeting tomorrow its too much – i said ok but right now the focus is dads health, no? she gets furious and says that is why i am calling you – i have to focus on my husband’s health right now. i said ok – then i say well we dont have to havve meeting, she starts screaming and says she never wanted meeting and it is all because everyone else forced it.
continues to scream about how all this has affected her and my father’s health and then says – this is too much we can not meet and we can not come to engagement party – hangs up.

i speak to my sister an we decide we may want to call an ambulance considering my dads history of heart disease, but then also are simultaneously aware that she is just using it as a tactic. my sister calls my mother – and as above my mom repeatsthe same and is also furious – “why did your sister tell you it is an emergency – it is not THAT kind of chest pain.”

it was a horror movie. classic. perfect.

And Anita – if there was EVER a way and day to follow your advice – that the only way to survive is to cease contact with these types – it would be now….

my sister is struggling with the above, and i am trying to figure out how to truly break away.

Good morning Anita,

Thank you for your response. I feel like you get that totally cutting off contact will likely be unreasonable, and you pretty much read my mind. I think the disconnect for me is that approach, the “no negotiation” my sister and i have been working on the “no reasoning with her approach” but that has fallen short – because its a dead end. i think what was important to realize about that is “just letting her be and trying not to reason with her” still was damaging to us – although it was less stressful than dealing with a crazy person we would say. clearly that was not the right solution.
After the debacle of last weekend, since our parents have not spoken to us – it is what i hope to be pivotal. i know they will never change, and in fact get worse. i know they think we are brainwashed, against them, abandoning the ones who sacrificed their whole life for us – and i think we struggle with that greatly: they did sacrifice their whole life (as did most immigrant parents of that generation) – but then what? are we indebted to them forever – do we just “take it” – clearly the answer is no.
and then there is the whole other thing of realizing that they – especially my mother- has no insight and awareness. she is truly a patient in that sense, and it is quite sad, that someone can be so ill. I guess like i said before i spent half my life feeling bad for her, and how did that change anything or benefit anyone? it didn’t.
i know that she will make it about all she wants to do is help, all parents do this, all their kids are so understanding and respectful and appreciative – why are WE not like that. i will have to stand so strong to these comments and know they are in fact FALSE. she will also make it a big deal about how now i am siding with the “other side” (future in laws – which mind you i ddont talk to them much and don’t feel compelled by any means). i will have to stand strong and know in my heart this is untrue, and it is just her hysteria and paranoia. I will have to stand strong and say outloud or to myself – these are delusions coming from a delusional person, this is not reality and none of these comments make me less of a daughter or supporter.

my favorite thing you said is that all the sacrifices go in vain -and it is true. i used to feel so odd thinking such a thing because i would feel like – well what i have done? they gave us their whole life – we had it easy. but it’s not true, it wasnt and isnt easy – if it was would I be here typing all this?

lastly i struggle from the part that its not black and white – my mom in many ways is loving, supportive, and the “coolest mom” growing up – my sister and i discussed this and decided that – this should not hold us back – because this does not rationalize the OTHer aspects of my mother (the parts that are more damaging). that with her great qualities were such bad, and that humans are complex as a whole and we have to see her for her entirely – not make excuses. i note how even now their “support” causes tremendous anxiety. they are no longer able to approach almost anything without heightened anxiety – whether it be going to the airport, making an appointment, or something much larger – i am allowed to say that although they care and are concerned, their approach is destructive.

hello anita,

you are as wise as ever, and i can not imagine what you went through for a struggle of 40 years. the sacrifice is all in vain – can that not be the best quote to symbolize this all. i am actually going to have my sister read some of this later/and even post in the near future as it will be beneficial.

my friend/only person who knows a little about this outside my parents sister and fiance– mentioned that she maybe acting out because she has severe fear of abandonment – whiich i do know is common in borderline personality disorder. this may be apart of it, and does make sense to a point.

few months ago – she had some terrible back pain (i and my father are doctors nothing that she doesn’t have resources for)
my father was there with her of course, and it was quite scary for her given that it is the first time she had an ailment (she is pretty young in her 50s). medical condition was managed, and of course there was still a ton of anxiety and dread on her end. fine, acceptable – and not like i don’t see this in my patientseveryday.

the kicker is- that weekend my sister came to visit me (she wasliving at home at the time with my parents)- for the weekend and for an interview. she leaves my mom friday night after my dad is home, to make sure she isnt alone in case her back gives out etc. saturday an interview. our mom calls us saturday evening, sounding quite distraught and says – so has your sister left yet to come back home here. i said yeah shes getting ready, mom goes on a rampage, you know this is quite serious, the two of you should know better – her interview was over hours ago, why didn’t she think to just come back straight away. i said mom, i get it, and we are there for you, but just bc it wasn’t immediate doesnt mean we dont care – it will take time and we know it isnt anything urgent as in emergency related.
she goes on about how parents do so much for kkids and when they finally need help, kids are nowheere to be found. then proceeds to tell us she told our aunt how disappointed she was with us that we werent there for her. i tell her i have my boards in a week or 2. she remarks, well you seem to have time to go out to dinner and all with your friends these days and hang with your sister this weekend – you couldn’t come home to help your mom. – you get the gist.

my sister and i felt such horror, guilt, and disgust. then that monday after the weekend passes my sister has returned home. she calls me at 7 am (i work early in the operating room). and says you know your dad and i were discussing, that at moments like that the kids should have come immediately – that really wasnt right and you should learn.

one example outside of anything to do with wedding etc.

you are so right about nature vs. nurture and our innate ability to sense fear. in fact i note around me how some of my friends have been told and taught to rise above, don’t succumb to wallow and sorrow – i never learned that. i always went along with the well of course i’m miserable – xyz happened, of course i’m sad, this person did this. never recognizing that (to a point) i had the ability to control the suffering, and that the amount of misery i endured was directly related to my thought process and emphasis.

the emphasis was always on the outside, which severely impacts me even at this age of 31. i recall a picture from disneyworld i looked at a while ago, smiling me at 5, and parents. the first thought isn’t oh wow thegood old days – it’s oh i remember my mom saying, “look at everyone else they are here with a big family, wouldn’t it be nice if we were too.” and of course i felt that, and continued to – and it made sense to me, my mom had been isolated and mistreated and yearned for “company” as she called it (company of others/friendships) her whole life, that it TOOK AWAy what we had. it’s like sitting at a dinner table of 4 and focusing on the 6 that didn’t make it – with that mindset nothing or no one could be enough.

issue is – how do you undo that – how do and my sister as adults train ourselves to know that is abnormal and aberrant thinking, and that it isn’t reality – that if another person or family had the same people at the table they would take it as grateful or just normal, but she would have taken it as sad.
i felt this was inevitable, of course this was the minddset, of course this was the approach, i remember explaining this to a young bf and telling him with wide eyes – well you know we were so lonely when i was a child because my familly (aunts and uncles) isolated her and us from holidays and all, so now the focus is on having people around, the more the merrier.
i recall how innocent that sounds, but yet so toxic…because it is the focus.

these days that is not her focus, but clearly damage has been done. i appreciate how humble you are about the disconnect. and you are right indian or not, cultured or not – patterns remain the same, we are all guilt stricken about our parents. i havven’t talked to her ina few days, and the last convo was – well what do you want me to do? call the wedding venue and cancel the wedding, tell me immediately? i said is that the concern or the fact that your daughter is sitting here telling you – you make her miserable for not just the wedding planning, but LIFE. she would not have it, i almost saw a shield go up around her and her brain instantly deflecting those comments. she responds – don’t you dare blame me, all i do is help, etc etc and it goes on.

i feel sad that i haven’t talked to her, but the first glimpses of knowing that i am put on this earth as a human, a child of someone nonetheless, but also someone who deserves happiness in my own right – i am seeing that although parents were loving and doting, they were toxic to my brain/thought process as a young child/and now as a adult. i don’t have to take this as just coming with the territory, i do have a choice – it’s just a matter of how.

we are planning a huge 500 person indian wedding for the fall, very common in my culture and community and very elaborate. family and parental issues are array during this time for many people and cultures. but i do know that this all has far to do with the wedding, she is simply utilizing it as sommething to fixate on and control