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February 19, 2024 at 3:05 pm in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #427939seaturtleParticipant
Dear Anita,
I am keeping this response as short as I can, after the long previous message, while still addressing your questions.
“maybe N is a people pleaser when it comes to dominant/ controlling people..? Or N is vulgar too (when not on weed)?.. (Who is N…?)”
I think N turns rebellious if he thinks he is being controlled, so therefore I don’t think he is a people pleaser when it comes to controlling/ dominant, or obviously controlling people. I wouldn’t call him a people pleaser at all I would say he likes to keep the peace between people, and does not want to scare anyone away. N is not vulgar, well… he was not in front of me. If N was vulgar, it would not be because it is how he really thought, it would be because he was trying to make the vulgar person more comfortable by mirroring their behavior.
“what successful relationships have you witnessed (in real life) and did you witness these closely..?”
Honestly, maybe one, but even them I did not analyze close enough so I am willing to conclude that my notions on what makes a successful romantic relationship work is twisted in places.
“I wouldn’t think that. but when you felt devastated by N not getting a joke.. that’s extreme.”
Before the shroom incident, this didn’t bother me. After that incident I became more analytical and dissecting of the relationship, trying to figure out what was wrong and what was right. Categorizing him not getting a joke as “wrong” was clearly extreme but that is not what created the category.
“when you heard that N said post breakup that he feels like dying.. I don’t remember you caring too much for his supposed suffering”
I did not allow myself to care about that. If I think about it too long I would cry, just like the breakup I had to handle it quickly without emotions or I would run back… to the “web.” I was afraid of running back to him, even now I am not letting my emotions surface but I can feel them trying to. Him saying he felt that way made me want to run to him, but I couldn’t so what could I do with those feelings? throw them away. Even now convincing myself he was just being dramatic… but it hurts me because I know he was sad, but after all, maybe it was just because he hates to lose people, not necessarily because he wanted me.
Seaturtle
February 19, 2024 at 2:52 pm in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #427937seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
“The first shift, as I remember it, was when you described the cash and C word incidents. I then thought that the reason you complained about lesser things in regard to N’s behaviors (ex., N not getting your jokes, not his fault at all, really) was because you didn’t want to face the bigger faults in regard to N’s behaviors, or misbehaviors.”
I thought the same.
“This shift led to discussing N as a spider, motivated instinctually to keep you too weak so that you don’t leave his web, seeing him as a controlling person.. aka the bad guy in the relationship.”
“..it occurred to me that I was wrong: N was not the controlling party in the relationship, you were: you stated it yourself, that the date nights were about what you wanted to do, etc., and you suggested that maybe you were narcissistic.”
When the narrative shifted to N being controlling, it was not something I had thought of him before. I remember questioning that perspective of him, but I could see it in some ways. For example him being late, I did feel like this was controlling in some way, that he to a degree was purposely being late to show some sort of power dynamic. To show that he would not be controlled, he was also so anti-controlling that I did not think he would be himself. He hated to be controlled, and I witnessed him go against that grain and I felt he was doing that with me. Which is why it does make sense that perhaps I was controlling in the relationship, but I also simultaneously feared that I was. I also thought that he would not allow me to be controlling, that he was strong headed enough to point out when I was, because it was the reality check that would make me stop and look at myself. I did not want someone who just did what I wanted, because that inevitably creates resentment and I tried so hard to avoid that in the relationship by communicating with him best I could. I would ask him all the time, “is this what you want?” and he was irritated by that question. I tried to ask him how things I did made him feel and he literally did not know how to answer those questions, so I just kept doing my own thing.
Growing up feeling unseen, I learned, that if I don’t put myself out there then I didn’t deserve to be seen, why would someone see me when I said nothing. So I learned to put myself out there. By “myself,” I mean my thoughts/preferences/feelings. Just like on family trips where my dad called me selfish if the restaurant that I “preferred” was picked. I put myself out there with N best as I could, early in the relationship when I fell in love, I wanted him to understand what he was signing up for with me, who I was. I did not want a relationship where he didn’t meet all of me till later. Like my parents, they were in love, but my mom hid her past and a huge part of her, she showed it to my dad 3 years into marriage, and he told her “I never would have married you had I known this about you.” At 3 years old my parents should have divorced but they stuck it out, no favor to me witnessing them fighting all the time.
My number one fear after falling in love with N was that he would reject me at some point, so to prevent that I told him everything, all my thoughts. He did not tell me his, he did not volunteer information about himself to me, I had to pry it out of him, in “deep” conversations that “exhausted” him. Because my preferences, thoughts, and feelings, were out there, yes that impacted, or maybe even “controlled” the things we did. But I did not want it that way, I begged him to show me who he really was so that I could be there for him. But there are only so many questions I could ask him, I even bought a game for us, it was a couples game with questions to initiate a deeper understanding, he refused to bring them with us on trips, he liked them at first but as soon as the questions got more intimate he would be irritated when I brought up the cards. He rejected therapy, I wanted to go not just to understand him better, but I was willing to have that therapist say what I was doing wrong as well, but he would not go with me.
“There was another thing, you kept saying that you are an empath, big on empathy for others, and yet, lately, I asked myself: where is it?”
When I say I am an empath I say so for these reasons: 1-When I am around a deeply depressed person, happy person, or anyone in an intense emotion I can feel it too. When I step into a room I can sense what emotions are around me, and I base my friends and environment preferences on these feelings. 2-I feel peoples pain, like if I witness someone being spoken to mean, I can feel it and won’t stand for it. I can’t even watch certain movies if someone is being treated badly I can feel it too intensely.
I do thing my empathy has it’s limits though. I have always struggled to have empathy for people in situations they could get out of. For example a relationship, my friend P, I have a hard time having empathy for her because I knew that guy was bad news the first time I met him, so to me I do feel she walked right into what she got. I also think my breakup with N gave me a sense of superiority, I am realizing now and do not think this is right, but I can admit that now watching others talk about their relationships I have less empathy for them, leaving N was the hardest thing I have ever done, relationally, and if I can do it why can’t they. To me I feel like, stop complaining and leave if he is calling you bad names and treating you badly…so here I lack empathy and feel my decision making is superior..
I agree with everything you said in this paragraph:
“So, now, I am quite embarrassed for having vilified N- it was wrong of me to do so, and I don’t want to do this again, not here in your thread and not elsewhere. What I am now inclined to think (from the totality of what you shared, which I did not re-read) is that N has very low self-esteem, that he is highly addicted to weed which keeps him mellow and unreactive (the Teflon brain we discussed), that he is a people pleaser, perhaps codependent, and still, I think, not a good partner for you (for his weed use, if nothing else). And I think that you are not a good partner for him. I think that the cash and C word incidents were a couple of times when he was not able to do the Teflon thing/ to be mellow (you mentioned that at those incidents, he wasn’t on weed, if I recall correctly), so he sort of.. verbally exploded.”
-The day the narrative shifted for you majorly and you said you could not longer speak about N and I should leave that relationship, I read it with a grain of salt. Because of course, my decisions are my responsibility. I don’t think I felt as strongly as you did that N was the only villain in the relationship, but I ended it because of everything I wrote above about communication and the weed addiction that surely impacted that.
“I know that following some therapy and hard work, you will be able to have a healthy relationship with a man who is suitable for you.”
Before reading this I actually researched my insurance coverage and sent a request to a therapist in my network.
“I think that you need to turn a new leaf and that N should get help with his weed abuse ad wit his self-esteem and assertion skills.”
I agree I need to turn a new leaf, I feel rushed to do so.. I wanted to be the best me and I am finding it harder in this moment than I have before.
” got to take on more humility, to be willing to be equal to others instead of superior. Start or restart your journey as a person equal to others, other people being equal (not inferior) to you.”
I agree with this. I do not want to feel superior to others, but I do and I don’t know why. This is such a strange concept to me because if I really face myself I do think I make better decisions than many others and have more awareness than, F for one. I believe that I am special and unique but I am also insecure that I am the only one that thinks that, which is probably true.
my dad reminded me quite often I was not“- and you tried to prove your father wrong..?
-Perhaps, I have not fully considered this before.
“how does he see the world (summarized)?”
I feel N is driven by fear that he will need others. In this fear of needing others, he gives (is generous) to others in order to feel better about potentially needing them. N is a peacekeeper, he wants the people around him to get along, more than he cares about this own feelings and desires. My analysis would be that he cared SO much about what his parents felt, and wanted them to get along so badly that he ignored all of his own needs and took care of them. He grew up so far from his own feelings that he doesn’t even know what they are, and it has been so long since he thought about them that now they are all in a big scary box he is afraid to open. I think he justifies keeping that box closed by lying to himself, telling himself that it is mental strength to not let your feelings control you, which it may be but nowhere in that is the rule to not even look at them. N loves the outdoors, and doing things that FORCE him to be present with his current feelings, cause that is all the feeling he can handle at a time. He enjoys risky things that he knows he will survive, but he knows will challenge his survival. He would spend days in the mountain with his dad, climbing the mountain and then skiing down, freezing and dangerous. He loves being in survival mode, where his mind shuts up (he uses weed to have the same affect). Survival mode where all he needs to worry about is warmth and food like a caveman.
Earlier when we spoke of me being controlling, when he wanted to do survival mode things, sometimes I was into it, I love snowboarding and camping, but other times I was not in to what he wanted to do. I thought it was pointless to put ourselves in such an uncomfortable situation, so I controlled the situation so that he didn’t take me there. For example the shroom incident. He gave us way too much, at first I thought it was not his fault, he didn’t know how much either it was just a mistake. After, I thought more factually… he has done this more than 2 times before, he knew it was my first time… he knew to some degree how much we were taking, but it was his desire to be in this survival mode that made him WANT that intense situation to happen. That intense situation that he took me to, a place I did not feel safe. I bring that situation up so often because it was the first time real doubt and fear entered my mind about the relationship.
N cares deeply about the people around him and wants everyone to get along, he brings people together with his amazing cooking and his generosity that attracts others. He likes to think about conspiracy theories, as do I. He is goofy when he is comfortable, but he is not trying to be goofy. He is not a class clown, he isn’t the one trying to make others laugh, he is the one to tell someone else to tell another person the funny story so they can laugh too! He is a very hard worker, if he wants something in the sport or financial world he will go get it.
He doesn’t like losing people… he was really impacted by one of his friends leaving without a word last year, the friend was in the drug world and I think was disappointed when N didn’t want to do cocaine and just left. I don’t think I was right for N either, but he was too afraid to lose me to even consider not staying together forever. I think he would more likely compartmentalize our relationship, only speak to me certain times of the day and just keep me out of his life, then to end the relationship. That is what I saw happening between us, it is not that I wanted all of his attention or to be the only one in his life, but I was slowly becoming less of a focus and the further he got the more I felt it and asked him and he denied it.
He wanted to be close to people. He forgave before he would leave… I also think N has an addictive behavior, he over indulges in things he likes. If it felt good then he would do it, his self restraint was not strong. It was this way for our sex life, I am more into anticipation and he would not last one minute before just ripping off my clothes, a couple times more aggressively than I was comfortable with. He is also a gentle giant. N isn’t someone I felt would harm me physically, and if he ever did it was a complete accident, but he did struggle with the word no, or me telling him to stop if he was being too harsh while playful.
N puts others feelings over his own. He once told me he admired that I was not that way, that I was able to say no to things that I felt were going to drain me too much, as he did not have this self control. His need to make others happy, and my desire to make him happy I think was uncomfortable for him. I think he also tried to group me in with him, after a certain amount of time being two separate people dating, we started to become a group, him and me. Grouped together he did not like that I didn’t always want to do what would make others happy, I had to convince him that him and I needed space to talk and it didn’t matter if that hurt his roommates feelings. His roommate did not have the sense to understand and that wasn’t our fault, N’s other friend D was much more respectful of me and N also having our alone time, N’s roommate I found disrespectful and unaware, but N put up with it. So when N and I were just two independent beings dating, he admired that I took care of myself over others sometimes, but once we became closer, and I started to want him to be selfish with me, he no longer admired that trait I had. He wanted to continue to people please and I didn’t.
I think I could go on about N but I will stop because this message is starting to feel quite long.
Have a good evening Anita,
Seaturtle
February 19, 2024 at 9:57 am in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #427919seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
Deciding to respond further because I want to face this head on to understand myself as best I can.
“I gave you the wrong answer. I was confused because I didn’t process some information about you thoroughly… therefore, amending my answer to: no, I don’t see any possibility that N and you end up back together in a healthy relationship.”
I am just wondering what this information that you re-processed about me and how that changes your analysis of me, I want to see myself through your eyes. You amended answer, that me and N could never be happy, is that because of what we spoke previously, his spider tendencies, or is it because you now believe I would be harmful to him? Why could we not possibly make a healthy relationship?
I read the following paragraph, and see the answer to what I just asked was that he could not have the deep vulnerable conversations we needed to have. But if we met again and he turned a leaf and wanted to enter these conversations with me, I could see it resulting in a healthy relationship, what do you think about that?
“heading for GREAT things (starting and publishing a book) is bringing me back to the topic of my confusion and yesterday’s study:”
What is the difference between trying to manifest good things for myself and be positive, versus too high of standards for my future. when I typed that I was inspired and trying to reprogram myself to truly believe my life is going up from here.
“You wanted him to get all your jokes and laugh.. otherwise, you felt lonely. You were jealous at his roommate, as I understand it, wanting to be the only beneficiary of N’s resources. N took it all because he was “easy going” (made possible by his daily, heavy weed use), accommodating your cravings to be treated Special, best he could, allowing you to determine where and how you spent your date nights, taking you to fancy dinners, etc. His easy-goingness and efforts to accommodate you may be the reasons why the relationship lasted so much longer than the previous 3-months limit per relationship.”
It is hard for me to believe that my feeling of loneliness was triggered so easily. It is not that he did not get some, but the majority of my little comments he did not react to. Growing up my dad used to tell me I thought backwards, he now says the same to my youngest sister. Her and I are different than most people I have met, we don’t always get simple instructions…if something is not written exactly how I am suppose to do it I often have lots of questions that the person who wrote the instructions thought should be intuitive or didn’t need to be explained. But then again, my mind works in the opposite direction as well where I put things together that others don’t, things that do make sense in my head but not to everyone else. My sister and I are both this way, in school we feel stupid but in conversation about the world or more abstract things our way of thinking is unique, I am not trying to say I am so different than others and so special, in fact my dad reminded me quite often I was not. My point is that N did not understand how I saw the world, and as much as I tried to understand how he saw the world, he did not give me the same time of day. I felt ignored quite often, I would make a comment and he literally would just not even react, and sometimes is ok but it was so often I started to literally ask if he could hear me, and he could but his mind was other places.
“(1) this is a very positive self-image/ confidence on your part, knowing that you are adorable and sexy. (2) you demanded his adoration and when he didn’t deliver it to your satisfaction, you were devasted, it was so very, very hard for you, you felt so very lonely.”
The funny thing is is don’t know if I am confident, there are days I am definitely not, then others I feel it more. I required so little of him in this way, I can recall two times in three years he said I was pretty. I tried so hard to not need more than that, and to just give it to myself, which bled out into my words as claiming I am “adorable” and “sexy.” When he didn’t deliver, yes, I was sad. But I actively practiced giving myself the compliments I needed and telling myself he didn’t owe them to me. But after so many times going out of my way to try and be pretty for him, and him not saying anything it does get to me, I wondered if I was his type or if he thought I was uniquely beautiful in any way.
“You were jealous at his roommate, as I understand it, wanting to be the only beneficiary of N’s resources.” … “you wanted to be N’s one and only person.”
This is an interesting one, I was jealous of his roommate. I was jealous that when he walked into the home while N and I were relaxing together that N’s who demeanor shifted. We went from a calm moment together to him yelling across the room about money and work and this bothered me very much. If the roommate came in and sat with us and could join a conversation with all three of us then I would have been okay with that, I know that because N has another friend, D, who I really liked and did not mind him in our space at all, he acknowledged me as a person. N’s roommate called girls gross names, talked about his sex life all the time and was very vulgar, so in general I didn’t really like him as a person. He was in the rat race, the young to middle aged men racing to the dollar bills, and I could feel that energy when he entered a room and it exhausted me. I was jealous when I would be laying in N’s bed waiting for him and he would talk all night with his roommate, yes I was jealous of that. But in my defense I tried my best to get over it, I would fall asleep cuddling my stuffed animal pretending it was hatch, and just remind her and myself it was ok.
“By 22 (before getting together with N), you had no long-term relationship experience, only 5 relationships that lasted about 3 months each.”
You are the fourth person to bring this up to me in the past week. My two friends, and mom all have brought up at one point not to beat myself up that N was my first long relationship. But all that sounds like to me is that I have more trial and error to go and that is so depressing to me. Is it too much to ask for that I find a man that wants to make me feel safe to give them my heart? N dropped my heart all over the place, being late, denying his own words and ignoring both his and my feelings.
“Re-reading your complaints about N in your 2 original posts, it’s clear that you required and demanded of him complete and ever present adoration, and when you didn’t get it, you were devastated.”
When you said I “required and demanded of him complete and ever present adoration” I am not sure how to feel about this. When I first read it I wanted to deny that I was this way, because the phrasing sounds extreme. I don’t feel my desire for my partner to admire me is as toxic as you make it sound. On one hand this makes it sound like a negative that I require my partner to adore me. When I see successful relationships that have gone the distance, a common factor is that the man adores the woman for who she is, and the woman is in awe of her man in some way as well, but both are in adoration and awe of the others best self, therefore encouraging it as well. I still don’t believe N saw me, and if he didn’t see me he had nothing to adore.
Mayo clinic: “Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental health condition in which people have an unreasonably high sense of their own importance. They need and seek too much attention and want people to admire them. People with this disorder may lack the ability to understand or care about the feelings of others. But behind this mask of extreme confidence, they are not sure of their self-worth and are easily upset by the slightest criticism. A narcissistic personality disorder causes problems in many areas of life, such as relationships, work, school or financial matters. People with narcissistic personality disorder may be generally unhappy and disappointed when they’re not given the special favors or admiration that they believe they deserve. They may find their relationships troubled and unfulfilling, and other people may not enjoy being around them. Treatment for narcissistic personality disorder centers around talk therapy, also called psychotherapy…. it often begins in the teens or early adulthood..
“Symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder and how severe they are can vary. People with the disorder can: * Have an unreasonably high sense of self-importance and require constant, excessive admiration. * Feel that they deserve privileges and special treatment. *Expect to be recognized as superior even without achievements. * Make achievements and talents seem bigger than they are. * Be preoccupied with fantasies about success, power, brilliance, beauty or the perfect mate. * Believe they are superior to others..”.
What do you think, and how do you feel about this?
–“narcissistic personality disorder may be generally unhappy and disappointed when they’re not given the special favors or admiration that they believe they deserve.” So when my roommate cried on her birthday because her boyfriend was in a bad mood all day and didn’t treat the day as special… this was narcissistic? I ask this not to accuse my roommate of anything but because I related and the same has happened to me.
-“People with this disorder may lack the ability to understand or care about the feelings of others.” I feel like I care too much if anything, about the feelings of others.
–“They may find their relationships troubled and unfulfilling” so what is the difference between actually being in an unfulfilled relationship where someone is treating you wrongly, and you just being narcissistic for believing you deserve better?
– “Treatment for narcissistic personality disorder centers around talk therapy, also called psychotherapy” no cure. What I hear is that if you are this way then you just are and you don’t deserve what you think you do, you’re delusional.
-“Make achievements and talents seem bigger than they are.” I downplay my own achievements as it is.
“What do you think, and how do you feel about this?”
I wrote most of what I think.
I feel overwhelmed. It doesn’t resonate with me that I don’t deserve more than what N was able to be for me, and I do believe my future partner will adore me, being told he may not honestly makes me question everything I ever thought about love. I feel confused, do I not know who I am at all? This whole time, since the breakup I have been trying to remind myself I did the right thing and that I deserved more than how he was treating me, and not to be told I don’t deserve anything and thinking I deserve more is being narcissistic, I just feel lost.
February 19, 2024 at 8:54 am in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #427915seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
Yes, to answer your question it was about 11pm-midnight here that I was responding. I have had trouble falling asleep the past week, I believe it is because with my surgery recovery I can’t expend all my energy during the day since I can’t even walk very fast so I am just not tired at the end of the day. I was lying in bed wondering about our conversation and decided to read, then unlike other messages I have read beforehand, I felt I needed to respond and wanted to understand but now I will wait for further response on your part before I break down more of the message because I feel threatened by it. Not to say you’re wrong I just fear the implications and how could I be something I so badly don’t want to be? I have tried so hard to be objective with myself, and look at myself when it is uncomfortable because I don’t want to be unaware of how I impact others let alone impact others negatively.
seaturtle
February 18, 2024 at 11:00 pm in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #427904seaturtleParticipantIf I am the problem and I am narcissistic with too high of expectations I feel overwhelmed, that N would have been the perfect partner if I was better. And if that is true I also don’t want to be that way.
February 18, 2024 at 10:54 pm in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #427903seaturtleParticipantWhen I say more depth on his end I mean vulnerability and communicating his feelings. I wanted to connect on those levels. I feel like I tried so hard to minimize my expectations and give myself a reality check that my partner is not meant to be my everything. I tried to focus on the positives and work through it but I couldn’t get over the lack of authenticity and depth
February 18, 2024 at 10:28 pm in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #427902seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
I can’t stop thinking about this message. I am afraid that it was my fault that the relationship didn’t work. When I first came here, our conversation began with me trying to take the blame for our relationship, I wanted it to be me that was the problem so I could fix it and make the relationship work. I thought maybe I was projecting F to N, or wondered if I was requiring too much of N and how to change that. Then it turned out that N was gaslighting and that wasn’t a relationship I could work with. My fear is I caused him to need to gaslight and I just self destructed the whole relationship and have too many needs. That he was too good for me and I will never find better.
Seaturtle
February 18, 2024 at 10:19 pm in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #427901seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
I will re-read and respond more thoroughly tomorrow but for now wanted to share how I feel about it.
It makes me wonder if you are saying I was the cause of the relationship being an emotional roller coaster?“Re-reading your complaints about N in your 2 original posts, it’s clear that you required and demanded of him complete and ever present adoration, and when you didn’t get it, you were devastated. This factor would cause the failure of a healthy intimate relationship with ANY man.”
My desire for him and I having deeper conversations feeling more seen by him is an unrealistic expectation in the first place and N was a perfectly good partnership that I ruined?
I wrote:
“I am going to start writing a book. I feel like I am at such an interesting time in my life where I am heading for great things“
and you responded:eading for GREAT things (starting and publishing a book) is bringing me back to the topic of my confusion and yesterday’s study:”
Am I delusional for believing I am bound for great things? I was meaning like I am only getting closer to where I am meant to be and who I am meant to be with. I don’t think I’m going to be something so amazing I just feel like I am nearing who I am and the best place for me.
If this is all this is true (that I required too much and made the relationship not work after he tried so hard to accommodate me) then N was too good for me?
I could be misreading, I am very tired and will return in the morning to absorb it better. So my fear is true? I am a narcissist?
Seaturtle
February 17, 2024 at 12:21 pm in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #427878seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
It has been a couple days, the fact part of me questions if a relationship with N could still work, I have not let it go completely. However, this in-between, not knowing if he is right for me is the same feeling I had when I was in the relationship. I guess I wonder if there will ever be a relationship I feel confident in, confident that I am growing in and being treated right, as well as being what they need in a partner.
N is hard for me to let go because of the good, and yes because of the guilt I feel for taking financial advantage. The way I looked at it, and we talked about, was that in a relationship sometimes one person needs the other for a time and then it switches, I felt like I was in a time needing financial support but I also expressed I would not always be there and I was trying to find my way out. Currently in my life I am already getting out and getting to a place of saving for a future home, a place I wish N got to watch me get to. I just feel like he lost trust and respect in some of my abilities, but not just that, he did not communicate it with me. Instead he was passive aggressive, then I questioned the passive aggression and he denied it…So to me yes my third eye was possibly closed when it came to money, but he did not help the situation. He would let me in on his finances so slightly, then tell me one day he can’t afford the mortgage and I thought what? you work so much how is this? he let things get so far and I had no idea what was actually going on, so yes third eye closed there. He certainly was able to see things that I wasn’t, but he didn’t talk to me, that was the difference between him and I. If I saw something I tried to help him see it too, if I didn’t see something he just blamed me saying I didn’t listen… But all I can say is I was doing my best to listen, when he said that I just felt like it was an excuse because I could not recall him trying very hard to get me to understand something, a burden I took on, trying so hard to explain and communicate with him but he couldn’t do the same.
“What I mean by a healthy relationship is a fair relationship which works for you and for him, a win-win prospect.”
Thinking about it working between N and I satisfies some feelings I am having right now. I feel lonely, having a partner is so nice because you can share your thoughts with them and they can understand your perspective of things. It satisfies my feeling of overwhelm that I have to find someone else, not only someone else but someone else that I now have higher standards for, because of my new awareness as to what I want in a relationship. N was not in touch with his feelings, if this issue was fixed then I would regret my decision of not being with him. Although there is also the fact of having more laughter in the relationship, something that wasn’t worth breaking up with someone, but now that I have a fresh start to find someone and not compromise there.
I feel like there is definitely someone out there better suited to me than N, I wish I could get rid of the pull to N altogether, but I think it is just love that makes it really hard for me, harder than I thought. He just lacked an emotional maturity and depth that was never going to work for someone life me, who is so curious about the world and is fed by the depth it brings. He said it, he was exhausted by depth… that right there could have been enough to end the relationship but I really loved him so I stayed and tried to sacrifice those things but I don’t think they are compromiseable for me. I just miss him and I wish I didn’t.
“When I suggested that you arrange to (some day, when you are able), to pay him what you think you owe him”
I have certainly thought about this a lot since you mentioned it. It would be a while longer before I can do this responsibly and not leave myself in a financially vulnerable place, but I could see myself doing this in the future. If it felt like it would help anything at that point.
“It reads like N is financially generous and (?) spent a lot of money on restaurants and entertainment with you.. while working very hard for his money…? If this has been the case, I can understand him feeling taken advantage of, financially.”
Me too, and something I would have done differently if I could go back now. But I have thought about this a lot and this is what I come up with… I question why didn’t I just get a part time job? I did apply to a few and didn’t hear back, but I also didn’t really want a job yet because I was on unemployment and I didn’t want that to stop. I was able to buy groceries for the house and N said that was enough for the time being, but I don’t think it really was, in retrospect I think he was just saying that. I wanted to find some place that was meant for me and I really was struggling to find that, I was discouraged and ended up doing lots of art. As soon as unemployment ended I got a job at an art gallery, one I tried to get before but had no response. The art gallery paid nearly the same as unemployment, the owner promised good commission and it was not true, I never made the commission he promised, and therefore my lack of spending money went on. I wanted to give the gallery a fair shot, and AZ summers aren’t good for sales anyways so I thought it was temporary, but holidays came and still barely any sales.
Throughout all that time of going through my search for what I was meant to do N didn’t understand what I was looking for in life, he would recommend these jobs but they weren’t where I wanted to be, I didn’t want to be at another job that barely makes enough money to save and I am just wasting my time for a year. I had money saved up and a very reliable care that I could have sold for 20k, but my dad took everything from me. I graduated college, moved to AZ and my car was stolen, 20k in insurance money my dad claimed to himself, gave me nothing and said good luck. I had paid thousands on the car and had over a thousand worth of items packed in the car for my trip, but since he paid for my insurance while I was in college (something he offered) he undoubtedly thought the insurance money was all his. With this heartless act on my dads part, I moved to AZ with nothing. I would never have moved if this happened before, but it was days before our move and N already purchased a home in AZ so I felt stuck. It was way harder to get back on my feet from that loss, then I thought it would be. I thought N was sympathetic to this, but I don’t think he truly understood how depressed mentally and financially my dad had caused me to be. The only clear voice I received while living with N was to move out of there, after a couple months I heard this voice, but I thought it was fear so I ignored it. It got louder, so I did. There were moments N and I thought we were eachothers whole future, but I also didn’t like the visions I had of us in the future. I wanted to talk more about our visions but all he had was what he wanted for himself, not “us.” I had a hard time visualizing my place in his future. I wanted to talk about things like this but I felt shut down by him, he didn’t want to talk about “serious” things and just wanted to have fun. And we did have fun together and I miss that.
I guess my life has gotten serious all the sudden, so much real life happening, my surgery, bills, my job change this year, and I just wish I had my friend here with me. But I still don’t see a romantic future because he did not want to have the deep real conversations we needed to align ourselves and our future. I feel like needs a simpler girl, that requires less conversation and is more willing to go along with his plans.
He also needs someone who is riskier than me, his riskiness stressed me out. With is little nephew he was so rough and it scared me. We went swimming at a watering hole and I had this bathing suit on that I knew he liked, I asked him if he thought it was sexy and his response was “I think if you did a flip off that ledge it would be sexy.” something that had absolutely no interest to me… you want me to walk barefoot up that jagged rock and flip off into that rocky water? no. He did not appreciate that I am a more delicate woman type, I am adventurous yes I love to explore, and I would even sky dive, but I just didn’t want to do the injury prone things he did like mountain biking and flipping off ledges. When I didn’t do those things I didn’t feel desired by him. This is helping me remember why him and I just aren’t suited in too many ways. He made a good friend but not a good romantic partner.
And yes, the weed is something I don’t want to compromise. I think it can be fun recreationally, but not nightly, especially since it only distanced him MORE from his real feelings. He had a false sense of feeling after he smoked, like when someone apologizes after they’ve been drinking and it just doesn’t mean much.
Living in that home was not healthy for me. And the person I live with should be.. When I communicated my feelings he fed off my tears then did it again and again. We had a good friendship but not healthy romantic. I wonder if a friendship with him would be healthy or possible, and if our sexual compatibility would be interruptive or a part of the friendship. But overall, I want to grow, and if that relationship with him would keep be stunted then it would not be worth it. I am happier out of the relationship! and that should be the bottom line. I have left the emotional roller coaster, I truly have, I was on a huge one and I truly feel I have exited. I miss the highs of that roller coaster, but not the lows. I deserve a steadier roller coaster. I honestly did my best in that relationship, I was willing to own up to my faults, he was not (soberly anyways).
I am going to start writing a book. I feel like I am at such an interesting time in my life where I am heading for great things and how cool would it be to write a book about how my life is and is going and get to record the good things as they happen. I know a better partner is out there for me and perhaps I will write my book right into him, but first after finding my confidence being out of the relationship with N. I need to move on and I need to get my passport. It is sunny outside and I am missing it worrying that N is the best thing I will ever be offered in life but that is a lie.
Seaturtle…swimming
February 14, 2024 at 10:46 am in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #427827seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
Do you think there is any possibility that N and I end up back together in a healthy relationship? Am I being unrealistic to wonder if it is possible for him to take responsibility, apologize and grow with me? I just hate being reminded of his positive attributes and that I have to go look for that again, dating sounds terrible but I want somebody, and I want parts of him. Whenever I would make a little wish on a birthday candle, fortune cookie or when he’d blow my eyelash away, I would wish that he was my soulmate, I so badly wanted it to be him and seems I still do. Is this 100% wishful thinking? I have been so patient in waiting for the right moment to get my things, the last chance I might have to talk to him, I want to do it right now, but some part of me I think is hoping this patience is for a reason and will be rewarding…
Seaturtle
February 14, 2024 at 9:53 am in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #427825seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
“The result: she felt calmer (higher) and you felt somewhat distressed (lower)”
Sometimes I wonder how many of this type of conversation I should have with someone before I distance myself from someone. Like what is the right balance in a relationship/friendship where the conversations brings you lower or higher. I suppose it just has to do with how it feels to me, but I am definitely sensitive to people bringing me lower and tend to avoid those people, what is conflicting is when it is a close friend. For example my friend P, the one in the destructive relationship, it is finally over but they still live together and he says nasty things to her and she stoops to his level in arguments, then she comes and tells me about it and I just do not want to hear it, but then I feel like I am being a bad friend.
“As far as the what-did-he-just-say, I figure he said to himself… ..#3 seems fitting: tell her that how she feels about what I said has nothing to do with what I said, but with her WRONG interpretation of what I said.”
Everything you wrote in this paragraph is so insightful to his mental state, I wish he would change this winning mentality and allow himself to be authentic and actually receive love.
“His authentic self..is one who cares about Winning at all costs…, one who cares about Power at the expense of Justice.”
And this authentic self is created by his upbrining?
“he .. is encouraging you to continue to not ask him for money.”
If he has so much, why is it so hard for him to help me financially do you think?
” F wants you to need him and he wants to pay the least for that which he wants,”
This is so interesting, just the other day I was telling M about my financial situation with my medical absence from work, she asked “won’t your dad be able to help you?” and I responded “I have already used my “ask” for the year I can’t ask for more.” So before hearing this in words that “he wants to pay the least for that which he wants,” it’s like I already knew there was some limit, the way he makes me feel like I can’t ask. Even though when we ended our conversation about my surgery, he said “let me know if you need anything,” yet he doesn’t really mean this… but an argument that we may have had in the past could have been me saying “I needed your help then” and he responds “Yea I offered it to you.” I gives so much subtext and when I read it back to him he refuses it.
“People with a conscience are complex…they struggle with getting their needs and wants satisfied, many struggle to identify what they need and want.”
“People without much conscience, people who are not concerned with doing what’s right and just for others..are not complex… If you see complexity in them it’s either your own complexity erroneously projected into them, and/ or you see a leftover bit of authenticity here and there, a leftover from the time before they moved away from their social-animal part, the part that cares to share power with others and have Win-Win interactions and relationships.”
To be honest I think I might be stuck in whether to categorize N as with or without a conscience. His roommate living with him, he often loaned him money, they covered for eachother. They often talked about this future they wanted with power and money, but I also felt the roommate was more consumed by power than N, N wasn’t the type that felt he needed to assert dominance, like his roommate or F. N was almost over0giving to people, he offered his friend in a bad situation to come live at his two bedroom house where he already had a roommate. N was humble in situations he lost, he was sad and wanted to do better, more human with a conscience to me. If no conscience people can’t share power and have a win-win, then that is not N, he literally wanted to get a huge house and have all his and my friends live in it to build community and money. This wasn’t something that intrigued me, I just wanted a real relationship with closeness to him, something that made him uncomfortable but at times he revealed he needed. Which is why I can’t help but think he is more of a conscious person that “struggle(s) with getting (his) needs and wants satisfied” and that he may be part of the “many struggle to identify what they need and want”
Seaturtle
February 12, 2024 at 7:48 pm in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #427776seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
I am finding myself wondering why I was attracted to N, or understand why I still may be. So that when I go to get my things I am aware of what attracted me in the first place and be cautious of it showing up again. Do you think he was narcissistic? Today my roommates boyfriend played a similar game that reminded me of N. It is her birthday today and he did not message her this morning, forcing her to let him know she was awake, to which he responded happy birthday then took two hours to call her. Once he finally did he made it known he was playing video games before calling her and cut the call short and said he had to make dinner. When she came out it was the shortest phone call they’d had since him being away at a basketball tournament. She said on the phone he was in a bad mood, just down and sad and she didn’t appreciate him not putting effort into being happy for her birthday, she said he brought her down and she was so disappointed she had expectations, said she felt stupid and didn’t even realize that she did have expectations but she hated that he had power over her and was disappointing. It was sad to hear and also incredibly relatable. I had this power dynamic with N and it was emotional torture. Why do we withstand this and also why do they do it? I know people are complex but this is such a similar behavior and reaction it caused in both her and I.
good evening and good night Anita!
curious Seaturtle
February 12, 2024 at 1:04 pm in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #427763seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
“this makes me think fondly of a saying I came up with.. all by myself (proud of it): sometimes (often, really) Family is just another F word.”
haha this is funny and true. It reminds me of when I came home from my trip abroad from Argentina, I was already at my peak of overwhelm, just trying to process everything that I experienced and also the amount of family that wanted to see me when I just wanted to go rest. And it was this moment my mom revealed to me that she had slept that that guy a year ago that was suppose to meet me for a date… family really has the power to bring you higher or lower and why they choose lower, I have no idea, and hope I do not do that to them..
“by “so many people”, you mean your family members? If so, consider that families are quickly to label individuals within as this or that, and the label persists within the family, and so, individuals are discouraged from growing and becoming more than a label.”
Yes I do just mean family. I remember even N appreciating my independent present moments to myself and they don’t seem to bother my friends as they are often the same way. My dad feeds of of pointing this out on me. When on vacations and there is an option of two places to eat, if I prefer one, I will speak up, but I don’t complain to do the other. It is just often my siblings don’t really express what they want, so they don’t get it, then I do because I expressed it, then they call me selfish. Once on vacation, my little sister was hungry, so I texted the family group chat if we could make a reservation, my dad said ok and we all met up. Once we made it there, my little sister decided she only wanted ice cream…haha but me and my other sister ordered a meal. In that moment, that my sister ordered ice cream and I ordered a meal my dad accused me, infront of everyone “wow you are so selfish you just organized this whole reservation and all of us meeting so you could eat dinner?” I literally before I could defend myself, feeling so just not seen at all, the reason I began the reservation process was because my little sister was too afraid to ask my dad for something so I did it for her. My sisters did have my back and say “no we were all hungry” but my dad did not let it go. Later I said that I did not like how he accused me of something I did not do, and was not, and his response “I didn’t make you feel anything other peoples words don’t make you do anything, your interpretation is why you feel.” my sister and I looked at eachother like what did he just say?? reminds me of N’s exact words.
“Seaturtle who wants to hide in her shell“- she is too magnificent to hide in her shell for long!
-Thank you for the smile 🙂
“but never humbly, as in saying: you are right, Seaturtle. I was wrong… unless his PR agent thinks it will serve him well to fake the latter approach, is what I am thinking.”
Exactly, yes literally his “PR agent,” that is funny! What I find interesting is that I am getting more skilled at spotting his PR self, versus his authentic self, and when I confront him he sort of glitches… changes the topic to one he sounds smart it or you know when someone looks up with their eyes…calculating.
“– I guess he was very flattered by what you said and rewarded you for flattering him (this is in line with his PR agent’s policy). Do you mean that when you lived with him, you used to flatter him but he did not respond similarly to the above?”
I mean like I would do or say something to flatter him, I had to do this in order to get him to send me my tuition money for college… I had to show appreciation how he wanted it and I knew I was playing the game to get what I needed but I didn’t care. I preferred an authentic relationship but he was the one that didn’t want it so I played his game. But he wouldn’t respond love bomby then, he responded much more mild with a simple I love you or thank you/ your welcome. Now that I don’t rely on him financially it is like he is more exaggerating his appreciation of my flattery. Maybe because it means more since he knows that I don’t need to do it to get tuition or anything from him… I did always suspect our relationship would be slightly better once I didn’t need him for things because it was the needing of him that he wanted but also didn’t like…like he wants me to need him but he also thought I was using him. This is similar to N! they are flattered when I need them, but they also feel taken advantage of when I need them…
“your posts did not bring me down because I know that even when you are going through a difficult time, you are resourceful and your 3rd eye chakra is open….the Seaturtle who wanted to hide in her shell in the closing of your first post today, was out of her shell, curious to see/ learn new things only 18 minutes later..”
Thank you for pointing this out. I wonder why I feel the need to make sure I don’t bring someone down, maybe it is because of what I wrote above, how my mom has done that to me and I know how it feels.
Seaturtle
February 12, 2024 at 10:34 am in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #427758seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
“…patience (patiently waiting instead of impulsively reacting) is good for our physical and mental health,”
Validating because this is also what I have been doing with getting my things from N, despite my mom and roommate telling me to just get it over with right away or that I should have done it earlier. Honestly as I asked myself when the right time was, I heard two little pieces of advice, to wait for after my surgery was over, also I had a sense it would be in March, and this was back in January that I felt this.
“His concern was not your health but for.. his feelings. He wanted his argument to Win.. and yours (while heading or recovering from a surgery) to Lose.”
Exactly how it felt.
“it is amazing how he makes himself SOUND oh so mature and fair a MOMENT after he expressed acute self-absorption and self-centeredness. “
He is very skilled at this, which is why for so long I thought I was wrong, because he “sounded” so fair. He would call himself “fair” too, he calls himself “easy to approach and reason with,” but we all know it is not true. The only way it is true is if you get on your hands and knees and grovel, metaphorically speaking. You do the dance with him, tell him how much you appreciate him, and make him feel like he is oh so fair and you are just thankful that he is using his time to make a deal with you.
“Like a spider and other highly instinctive animals, he will adjust to your new behavior, that’s all. I don’t think that he can see anyone but himself.. well, he can’t see anyone on the other side of his (triggered) hurt/ unappreciated feelings.”
I want to be able to spot his adjustments, and with an open third eye I will continue to. Even his last message, to agree to disagree, I rolled my eyes to myself, but just let the conversation end there, so that right there was an “adjustment,” that I spotted.
Something I am curious about, so on his birthday last week I texted him happy birthday, and that I was thankful to have an entrepreneurial dad to watch, it gave me confidence that one day I can start my own thing and don’t necessarily need to work for someone. his response was very love-bomby at 8pm, so possibly very intoxicated he responded:
I’m soooo proud of you (I talk you u pall the time). Thank you for the kind words. I’m always there for you (two kissing emojies) now and forever (another kissing emoji)
He wasn’t like this before, when I lived with him, this love bombing is a new thing and I wonder why?
Curious Seaturtle
February 12, 2024 at 10:16 am in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #427756seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
Before you read this, warning it is a bit of a negative rant, so be sure it doesn’t bring you down, it is just how I have felt the past three days. Also no complications, I am resting and healing 🙂
“Overnight stay at the hospital (3 hours sleep), five incisions, sore and one ovary preserved- – Less sore and rested this morning, I hope..???”
I would say the soreness levels haven’t changed very much, but thankfully I have been getting good sleep as this healing process is making me very sleepy. Today is my roommates birthday and yesterday she wanted to watch the superbowl, I wanted to be a good friend for her and be present with her despite wanting to go to my bed. Thankfully she was good with the compromise to spend the day on the couch!
My time in the hospital was a little traumatizing, a few things went hectic and lead to me overall feeling very alone and not understood.. I am seeing my pattern of feeling this way especially when I am hurt or sick. Before surgery the nurse had to draw quite a bit of blood and she did so in a place that I have never had blood drawn..she chose a place near my hand where blood came out very slowly so I was there for a long time as she squeezed my arm and it was miserable, then it was’t enough blood so she had to go to another place on the same arm! at this moment I had my first of many panic attacks, just tried to control my breathe but couldn’t stop tears. 24 hrs no food and blood being drawn from someone who didn’t seem to know what she was doing, I felt exposed and alone, the other nurse was kinder and attempted to comfort me (the only comforting nurse I would see my whole visit). They did not tell me they were administering me the anaethesia, I signed papers but had no warning one minute I just got dizzy, then I woke up in the hallway post-surgery, I was jarred awake form the anaethesia by loud noises around me, I was in the hallway for 2 hours as my post-surgery room was not ready. By the time I made it to my room I was awake, feeling the pain and pressing my call button as instructed, for pain medicine, my nurse kept saying she was on her way and it took 1 1/2 hrs for someone to get to me with the pain medication, at that point I was crying of the pain and the nurse just had this very smug face. She was smiling…which I thought was so weird cause I was crying and she told me “you don’t have to cry, stop crying ok?” this made me feel worse, I felt she had no empathy. The rest of my visit was like this, I was alone and this woman came when I called and was not delicate with me, instead of going around my bed to administer the pain she reached over and was pulling on the tube connected to my arm. Finally I left and it was over.
Once I was home it was so nice to rest saturday. Sunday I felt obligated to be out in the living room for my roommates birthday and some friends here, and my rommate made several comments about going out and I kept saying I could absolutely not, then my other friend said “what if you just sat down where we went?” They expected me to get dressed, go out with them and sit down awkwardly? I just wanted my mom yesterday. Not to mention my morning began with my brother in a manic state, texting me that he wanted to text N! starting the day calling my grandma to please take his phone my grandma said she didn’t see the problem with him texting N!!! Insane. Within 24hrs I had a surgery and 3 family members cause me un-needed pain, my dad calling me self absorbed, my brother sympathizing with my emotional abuser, and my grandma being completely emotion-less (typical of her). Then I told my mom about my dad saying I was self absorbed and she thought this was the right timing to bring up a time when she thought I was… Honestly I just felt attacked all morning. She brought up when I went to Hawaii with my mom and sisters, and we took a scenic drive, we had to stop to use the restroom and after I did I noticed a waterfall under this beautiful bridge, and decided to go take a minute to myself. I was gone for 15, maybe 20 minutes. When I came back my sisters were on the bridge and told me how selfish I was for going off on my own. my mom agreed. In the future I would tell them before taking a moment to myself and even this bothered them still but they were more accepting.
Personally, I have always admired people who were able to go take moments to themselves, be independent and present. So to me, I want to be that way, I like that about myself. I used to be such a people pleaser and I don’t want to live my life for other people, I have to live with myself at the end of the day. Also, I am there when it counts. I flew home for graduations, dance performances, I am there for people in ways that others aren’t. I just feel like I am misunderstood, but that worries me that something is wrong with how I am doing things when so many people are saying the same thing. To me, I need to love me to love others, and keep my crown chakra open. I think the people in my family don’t love themselves, they are judgemental and self righteous. I just feel I am going to keep having moments to myself, and just have to deal with them being annoyed I am not to everyones beck and call like I used to be.
Seaturtle who wants to hide in her shell
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