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Tee
ParticipantDear Anita,
glad it was helpful š«¶
Yes, I know now more than I knew before. Actually, for the longest time, I didnāt know at all. I was too enmeshed with her to see anything clearly.
Yes, I myself only learned about emotional enmeshment with my mother in the last few years. I didn’t know it either for the longest time… I was still hoping for something from her, her opinion of me was important to me.
I didn’t realize I was actually hoping for her validation. I was hoping she would see me and understand me, and that she wouldn’t judge me. But then I’ve realized this would never happen… and so I let go of the need for her to see me in a good light. To approve of me.
Also, I stopped trying to make her happy, because I’ve realized she is the kind of person who doesn’t want to be happy. And so me trying to cheer her up and comfort her are futile attempts…
It doesn’t mean I have no empathy for her, e.g. when she has some health issues, I’ll always try to help and comfort her. But I’m not attached to how she would receive it – and I’m not attached to making her feel better. In other words, I’m not attached to changing her emotional state – because that’s impossible. She is responsible for that, and only she can choose to look at things more positively… but refuses to.
Yes. I am feeling it right now, this moment. It feels like love, undying love for her. I need to keep the love, remove the object of this love. To love the wrong person, a person thatās eagerly tries to destroy you.. me, is indeed a trap, one of the prey sacrificing its life so to please the predator.
Yes, we as children have a huge love and need for our parents, specially for our primary caregiver, which is often our mother. It’s like we’re holding our arms stretched towards our mother, wanting to be taken into a nurturing embrace, wanting to be comforted, soothed, protected…. in that embrace, we would ideally get all of our emotional needs met.
But we often don’t get it… instead, we get rejection and abuse. But our arms keep being stretched towards our parents, and we keep thinking that if we only become a better child, our mother will finally take us into her loving embrace… We’re trying to adapt, to become more “lovable”, thinking that we’re not lovable enough…
Our love remains unchanged and equally strong, and we’re trying to change ourselves to become more lovable. Which with toxic parents is of course a dead end…
Now thinking about it, it’s not that our inner child should let their hands down (as in give up on love), but rather, we, our adult self, should pick up our inner child and take it into a loving embrace. We should be that loving parent to our inner child. We don’t give up on love, but we don’t seek it anymore from those who cannot give it to us.
Itās worth it, to heal at a later age. It doesnāt feel like itās too late. It feels very good.. Itās about time for me to feel good about me being/ becoming me!
I’m happy you feel that way, Anita! Yes, it’s never too late to heal and become the fullness of who we are meant to be āļø ā¤ļø
W.O.W, I couldnāt have said it better. No one has ever said this to me, anything like it. So clear, so exact.
Thank you, Anita. It’s probably watching hours and hours of youtube videos on childhood trauma and narcissistic abuse – I kind of picked up the gist š But in all seriousness, it’s my personal experience plus the explanations by experts that helped me wrap my head around what I’ve been through and what others in a similar situation might be going through. In any case, I’m really happy it is helping you š
To me, our conversation is life-changing. From suspicion, distrust, hostility on my part to => softening, trusting (because you are trustworthy!), a shift. Feels like I am rejoining the human race, the Togetherness lost so long ago, dissolving the separateness.. Because of you, Tee, because of your very intelligent input and understanding, because of your grace and forgiveness, and my ability now to receive it.
I’m so happy you feel this way, and that the distrust and fear are slowly melting away ā¤ļø
You’ve made a major step towards that opening: you’ve let go of your defenses and mustered the courage to hear even painful things about yourself, which is not an easy thing. You had the spaciousness, the openness, the vulnerability to say “I see your pain, even as I am feeling my own pain.”
And that I think is your True Self in action – a part of us that has compassion both for ourselves and others, that is willing to listen with an open heart and mind, that feels togetherness with others… I think you’ve stepped into your true, authentic self and this is the shift you’re experiencing… and to me, it is beautiful to behold and be a part of ā¤ļø
Tee
ParticipantDear Anita,
Grateful for your message š š š
you’re very welcome!
Yes, it did. Problem was I kept going back to her, flying across the world to see her and be with her which killed my joy every time. So, going back to the U.S., eventually, was not joyful anymore.
Every visit with her was retraumatized me, and every return to the U.S. took longer and longer to recover from time until there was no recovery (many years of depression). My healing process started in 2011. Shortly after I started therapy back then I ended contact with her, no more visits.
Good that you stopped those visits.. if each visit made you more and more depressed, if it killed the joy in you, then of course it’s better to stay away. The problem is – and you know it too – that even if we move thousands of miles away from our abusive parents, the emotional bond is still there. We’re still enmeshed with them, we want them to love us, our sense of self-worth still depends on how they see us…
Sometimes no physical contact doesn’t mean no emotional attachment. Not at all. But of course, it’s easier to let go of that toxic emotional bond if we stop visiting the toxic parent and stop getting more of the same abuse. As you said, it only retraumatized you.
However, the problem is that your emotional attachment to your mother still remained. Your inner child still wants her to love you. You still need her love and validation in order to feel lovable and worthy… And that’s a trap.
The goal of healing is to start feeling lovable and worthy even if our parents weren’t able and will never be able to give us what we need, i.e. to meet our basic emotional needs. They gave us physical life, but many of them were not able to give us emotional nurturing, which is a precondition for a healthy personal development.
So we’re stunted in development, basically, because some basic building blocks are missing. But the good news is that we can make up for what’s missing by getting those basic emotional needs met later in our lives. It’s never too late for that…
But to return to your question about your mother:
Why canāt she see me, Tee? Why canāt she hear me?
Because she herself was/is a wounded, traumatized child. She never received love and care during her childhood, and someone “seeing” her and appreciating her. And so she couldn’t give that to you either. She parented you from her wounds and defenses, rather than her true self.
And, which is also important – she never stopped to ask herself: “why, there must be a better way to live. There must be something I can do to help myself. Perhaps if I change, I could have a better life. Perhaps I am contributing to my own suffering”.
That’s something a person with narcissistic traits never does. And so she didn’t either. In her mind, it was you who were making her life miserable – it wasn’t anything that she did. She saw you responsible for her internal terror. She had no awareness of her own wounds, her own trauma, nor was she interested in learning about that. Instead, she projected the badness on you, blaming you for causing her pain and suffering.
You were an innocent, precious little girl, whom she unfortunately used as her punching bag, as a way for her to relieve her internal tensions and keep deluding herself that she is not the problem.
I think that’s what happened, Anita. She was someone with a lot of unresolved mental health issues, and as such, she was totally inadequate to be a parent. But she still became a parent and had two beautiful children, whom she didn’t know how to parent. You two became the victims of her untreated mental health problems.
That’s what I believe happened. I wonder how you feel when reading this?
Oh my God, Tee.. I am speechless. Youāre happy about me opening my heart and mind, happy about where weāre now?
Of course I’m happy š«¶ It’s a good feeling to be able to talk to someone honestly, with an open heart, with vulnerability, and see that openness in the other person too. And I’m very happy that our interaction took this turn… it’s definitely something I cherish ā¤ļø
P.S. I like our šs too š
Tee
ParticipantDear me,
sorry for just popping up in your thread. I haven’t read all of it, but did get the general idea about a certain insecurity in you regarding this girl, which Roberta and Anita aptly identified as the push-pull dynamic.
There’re probably deeper reasons for this, but I don’t intend to go into that but just share something I’ve read today about a celebrity couple (whom to be honest I don’t know much about, but liked their love story anyway): so it’s about singer Dua Lipa and actor Callum Turner.
They both travel a lot for work and have very little time to meet, but still, they meet whenever they can, even if it’s only for 2 days. They have a saying “Making the trip to see one another is never not worth it.”
He said:
“If you can go for two days, just f*ing go. And if you’re tired, it doesn’t matter because you’re going to have a nice time and have a nice memory”.
And she said about their relationship:
“That vulnerability is so scary, but I feel so lucky to get to feel it…. I’ve spent a lot of time being guarded or protecting my heart, and so I’m letting go of that feeling and just being like, ‘Okay, if I’m supposed to get hurt, then this is what’s going to happen.’ I have to just allow love”.
When I saw that you’re only 3 hours away from this girl, I thought to myself that it would be such a pity if it ended like that: basically she complaining that she feels lonely, and you never visiting, finding excuses, and yet wanting to visit.. arrghhh š
Anyway, this is my 2 cents. I love myself a good love story š I think it would be awesome if you actually gave it a chance…
Tee
ParticipantDear Anita,
You’re welcome!
I lived in a prison, life put on hold for a later time when itād be allowed. There were times though, I remember, I was an older teenager or in my early 20s, still living with her, that I exploded with laughter, genuine laughter, a long-awaiting joy.. never when with her alone. Moments of feeling positively alive. A breath of fresh air.
Good to hear that, Anita! It means she didn’t manage to kill all the joy in you. There was still life in you, and it would bubble up sometimes, when you were alone, when she couldn’t see you or hear you. And perhaps that life was what motivated you to move across the world from your mother and seek happiness there? In a new, far-away place where her abuse cannot reach you?
yes, my analysis (and I am feeling confident about it), she suffered from- and inflicted suffering- from this combo of personality disorders: Narcissistic, Histrionic, Paranoid, Borderline and Obsessive- Compulsive.
Yes, that’s tough. What’s hard about it that she seemed to have been functional otherwise, i.e. she didn’t seem like someone with mental health issues on the outside, right? I mean, she could pretend in front of other people that she is a kind, caring person, and a kind, caring mother, right? (except for what the neighbors heard sometimes…). You said she was “soft-spoken, nice” with your uncle, for example.
And that’s I guess the narcissistic part: where the person can pretend to be certain way, which is socially acceptable. Where they can keep a certain public image, which is totally different than how they are in private.
So it was only you (and I guess your sister) who knew how your mother actually is. I know you’ve talked about your sister before, but I don’t remember if your mother treated you two differently? Was she equally harsh and abusive to your sister too?
I clearly remember her sitting to his right when he asked me a question about me, looking at me threateningly, with that mild smile on her face. Thatās why I didnāt answer him. I said something polite, but didnāt answer.
Right. You knew you weren’t allowed to say anything that would be “unacceptable” to her, which probably meant anything genuine about yourself. She had a mild expression on her face, but you knew how she is underneath… and so of course, you didn’t dare to be honest with your uncle.
Thank you for sharing about parallels or similarities in your life, your process. It makes me feel like I am not alone.
You’re welcome, Anita, you’re definitely not alone. ā¤ļø There are a lot of similarities in how we were brought up, even though it was harder for you. But mine too is a decades-long battle, years and years of working on myself and gradually healing. And there are still blocks that I’m working on, although things are getting better…
this made me smile just now. Of course.. Tee and Inner Child healing go together like peas and carrots š
(I just got scared that youād be offended by this culinary saying.. itās a saying I like to use).
Hehe, yes š Actually I wanted to put a smiley at the end of that sentence (“And of course, my answer is always: healing the inner child..“). So no offense here at all, healing the inner child is my go-to answer for most big problems š
I trust you enough to invite you to talk to my inner child directly. I have never invited anyone to do that. I know you will be gentle with her (there are tears in my eyes as I am typing this). She canāt handle criticism.. she shouldnāt (thatās my job, the adult me, to hold myself accountable. Not her job).
No one outside of me ever spoke to her, or had a conversation with her. Please do talk to her.
Actually I didn’t think to talk to your inner child directly. I thought you would do that… I just wanted to notice that it seems your inner child is still looking for validation from your mother (based on your post on Oct 10, 12:45pm). The little girl Anita believes she is bad and she wants her mother to love her and tell her she is not bad:
I hate being bad. I donāt want to be bad. Help me, help me be good.
Sounded so true, 100% true.. Am I BAD.. Make HER say I am not bad. Make her say I am notā¦
The little girl Anita is still looking for something (love and validation) from her mother – which unfortunately she most likely won’t receive. Her mother (your mother) doesn’t seem to be capable of that.
I can imagine that looking for validation from your mother is what might be keeping you stuck in the feeling of “not good enough”, the feeling of worthlessness, “badness”.
You’d need to release that longing and “radically accept” that you cannot get it from your mother. That she just isn’t capable of giving it to you. And that it doesn’t make you a bad person, or a bad daughter.
I wonder how this sounds to you?
Thank you for your grace, nothing that I (the adult) deserved, but something you offered anyway. This is the nobility of your character ā¤ļø.
Well, you did apologize for what happened in the past and have opened yourself up to a different perspective. That’s why we can now talk to each other ā¤ļø So it’s not quite true that it’s nothing you’ve done. You’ve changed your attitude, you’ve opened your heart and your mind – and here we’re now. And I’m very happy about it ā¤ļø
Tee
ParticipantHi Peter,
I’ve just noticed something I haven’t noticed before in what you said here:
I recall conversations years ago where I admitted feeling that the hope I was leaning into was making life grim and depressing. The hope I was taught was tied to unmet expectations projected onto some imagined life after death where all would be well⦠I wondered if it might be better not to hope at all. When I shared this, the response was nearly universal: You have to have hope, or youāll fall into despair. ā Despair on one side, despair on the other ā a catch-22.
It seems you were taught to hope in a glorious life after death, where all your sorrows would be gone. Such a religious doctrine usually makes excuses for the suffering we’re experiencing in the here and now, and even enables abuse. Instead of dealing with the abuse, and encouraging the believers to seek a better, more fulfilling life in the present, this doctrine is giving false hope of a better future while turning a blind eye on the current abuses – on the problems that could be and should be addressed.
Such doctrine is disempowering the believers, telling them to remain in suffering and to give up (or never develop) personal agency, with which they could change their lives for the better.
And then if you don’t feel like hoping in something imagined, distant and unreachable, and when you feel frustrated by the life you’re told to live in the here and now – the religious leaders and others in your surroundings tell you that you have to hope, otherwise you’ll fall into despair.
So they’re trying to keep your spirit alive by offering false hope as the only remedy against the suffering you experience in the here and now. And then perhaps even guilt-tripping you that if you don’t have that hope, you’re not a good believer.
I wonder if that’s the experience you grew up with (or encountered at some point in your life)? Because it certainly teaches a false notion of hope – basically hope that is not based in reality, but in wishful thinking. Illusion, as T.S. Eliot called it:
Take the statements: āLife without hope is a grim one.ā āLive without hope.ā They sound similar, but they point in opposite directions. The first assumes hope is essential for meaning. The second, echoing T.S. Eliot, invites us to let go of clinging to specific outcomes. It doesnāt suggest despair, but rather a posture of openness, of freedom from illusion.
You rejected that kind of hope. And I say: good for you! You started looking for different ways to deal with the pain you were experiencing:
That led me to a deeper question: why, when we try to change a story we tell ourselves, do we feel such pressure, both internal and external, to replace it immediately with a new one? What are we so afraid of in the silence between narratives?
When I considered removing my story of hope, I was told the only alternative was to fill that space with a story of despair. But over time, Iāve learned this isnāt true. You can stop telling a story without replacing it. You can leave the space open, and remain whole.
You rejected the false notion of hope, and you opened yourself to the unknown: to live without hope. Live without that kind of hope. The disempowering hope, which keeps one stuck in unnecessary pain and suffering.
It’s not the kind of hope that helps us deal with the suffering that we cannot escape, with life circumstances that we cannot change. Rather, it’s the false hope that discourages us from changing what we actually could change.
If I understood you well, that’s the notion of hope you rejected. And you opened yourself up to something new…
I just felt like acknowledging that, Peter. I feel I can now better understand why the notion of hope is so important to you and why you’ve been trying to clarify it to yourself and others. I’d certainly benefited from your contemplation, so thank you š
Tee
ParticipantDear James,
Humans are virus meaning is not as body, but as who thinks they are separate then other things.
I agree with this, James. If we think we’re separate from other beings and from mother nature, that leads to huge problems, such as exploitation, destruction of the habitats, pollution… nowadays we’re experiencing the consequences of climate change more and more. And as Roberta said, the Western man has the infamous history of colonization, looking down at and exterminating indigenous populations, pillaging their resources… all very painful points for our “civilization”.
So I agree, there can be great darkness in humans, great cruelty and lack of understanding. At the same time there can be great light too…
Moreover, doctor can save a pet yet and kill it at the same time, like animals. Such as, cat can Save a kid from attack of dog, yet crocodile or shark can kill a human being.
Yes, the animal kingdom has its own rules. Sometimes the animal that is weaker or wounded is the one that gets eaten by a predator. Sometimes nature can be cruel, even as it can be magnificent and soothing. But it is all well, it is according to the laws of nature.
However, we humans should show more mercy, much more mercy towards our fellow human beings, as well as animals and plants too. There’s a saying “Homo homini lupus”. We shouldn’t behave like predators to each other. But unfortunately, we know examples from history and even the present day when this is not the case… where people do behave like predators to each other. And that to me is horrifying š
Thatās why realization is important, body and mind are one with universe. İf there is no water, body dies, if there is no air body dies, etcā¦
I agree – we’re one with the universe. We depend on Mother Earth’s resources for our sustenance. We depend on the Sun too, without which everything on Earth would die. We are so fragile, so small under the stars… and yet, our hearts can be huge and full of love… if we understand, if we connect to who we really are ā¤ļø
Tee
ParticipantDear Anita,
sure, I was actually thinking the same – that it would be better to take the conversation to your thread… see you there, gladly! ā¤ļø
Tee
ParticipantDear Roberta,
What animals donāt have though is self-awareness. You said it yourself
Is that really true?
You’re right Roberta, there are animals with very high intelligence, such as dolphins, elephants, horses, whales… And also there are many domesticated animals, such as dogs, even cats, who commune (and have loyalty and feelings) for people who care for them.
What you’ve shared is a very heart-warming story:
I have seen cat come & say goodbye to each member of our meditation group & he also visited others in the area that had looked after him at one time or another. our stories matched up on how he acted with each of us & this was just days before he died & yet he had not visited me in the previous year.
So perhaps animals, or some animals, do have a soul. Perhaps even some form of self-awareness, I don’t know. But I believe we have a different kind of self-awareness, the kind which allows us to observe ourselves, self-reflect and transcend our limitations. I don’t think that’s comparable to animals.
Anyway, my point was not in degrading animals and elevating humans, but just in saying that human mind is not necessarily the source of evil, even though it could be, if we get stuck in selfish, ego ways.
Tee
ParticipantDear James,
When you say āthere is an animal, and canāt think yet we thinkā, thatās how human being is corrupt.
None of animals destroy the nature, they just flow with the moment, yet human beings are famous with destruction, because they āthink ā they are special. Yet, they are like virus, just multiple and multiple consume the habitant, and when itās done move to another habitant. Thatās what the devil is.
Sure, humans have done terrible things to nature. But to think that humans are like a virus, that humans are evil as a species, that’s in my opinion distorted thinking as well.
When you realize you are not special, body comes into peace. And thatās the only way to save humanity or world.
We’re not special, we’re just different than animals. As an example, a veterinarian doctor can save a hurt or sick animal, but an animal cannot save itself.
Humans can be a great blessing too, not only a virus. It all depends on how we see ourselves: one with, or separate from God and Mother Nature.
Tee
ParticipantDear Anita,
I like your honesty about your thoughts process while writing your previous post to me.
You’ve shared that you felt uneasy about how I would react to your greeting, or how I would react to you not understanding or not agreeing with what I said about the protector part. You’ve also shared that there’s a still a slight fear in you about me potentially shaming you:
So, yes, hypervigilant, afraid to say-not say- feel-not feel-think.. wrong. I noticed much improvement in this regard in the last year or two. But today, these scared, hypervigilant thoughts occurred because I felt helped by you, I felt a softening.. being on the receiving end of something good.. But being on the receiving end means being afraid of receiving something bad.
But what do I really have to fear with you, Tee..? You wonāt hit me (no hand coming out of the computer screen to punch me), and no.. you will not shame me, I am quite sure of it (I typed āquiteā because I am not absolutely sure). But.. no, you wonāt shame me for being vulnerable here.
It’s good that you notice those thoughts and feelings and can speak openly about them. And I can assure you I won’t shame you, Anita. There’s nothing to be ashamed of in you openly sharing how you’re feeling and what your fears might still be regarding our communication. I appreciate your honesty š«¶
Probably your hypervigilance stems from your mother, who you say would attack you for just about anything you said (or didn’t say), even for your facial expressions:
I never knew what would make my mother (Iād like to refer to her as M) angry at me. It could be anything, I had no way of knowing. Could be a word I said, a word I didnāt say, an expression on my face, could be a thought she said I had which I didnāt have. Sheād tell me what I was thinking (theme: thoughts about hurting her feelings) and when I tried to assure her that I wasnāt thinking that, sheād passionately argue that I was planning to hurt her feelings.. weeks or months in advance.. and no way to convince her otherwise.
And every time I was thinking wrong (so she said), saying wrong, not saying right, etc., there was hell to pay: long, elaborate sessions of shaming (the most painful), guilt-tripping and at least some of the times, hitting. Sheād stop only when she was physically exhausted, not before.
āTo be or not to be?ā- not to be was what pleased her.
So you weren’t allowed to express yourself, to simply be, be a child, expressing yourself, laughing, crying, playing, talking to your mother…. None of that was allowed, because of your mother’s severe mental health problems, it seems.
You were exposed to both physical and psychological abuse, and you had no one to help you, since your father left when you were six, while people from the neighborhood didn’t react (it wasn’t socially acceptable to “poke one’s nose” in other people’s child rearing).
You had a good uncle (you said he asked you once something about yourself – he was interesting in getting to know you), but I guess he didn’t know about the extent of the abuse that you were suffering?
I’m very sorry, Anita, for you truly where all alone in those horrible circumstances, left to your own devices to manage the best you can. To survive, basically.
And you did survive, but or course, the trauma remained and it’s still affecting you to some extent. (Just to say that my C-PTSD is still present too. I still have parts of my life where I’m lead by fear and am having a hard time making a breakthrough. So it can be a decades-long process, unfortunately.)
So the question is how to heal. And of course, my answer is always: healing the inner child…
You’ve shared parts of your internal dialogue in your own thread (“A Personal Reckoning”), where you did the inner child exercise. You’ve shared what your inner child said, and also what some other parts said, including your adult self.
I might have some remarks about that, but I’m not sure if I should comment on it, since you said you want only witnessing, not advice or analysis?
So I’m refraining from that, unless you’re comfortable with me giving you feedback. I’ll respect that.
And again, Tee, I regret the pain I caused you. I never want this to happen again, and it will not. I promise!
It’s okay, Anita. I’m happy that you could step back from your own pain and see a bigger picture. I’m happy you’re open to self-reflection and personal reckoning, as you said.
I think you’re doing a great job in being brave and open with all of your feelings. I think it means you’re developing compassion for yourself, which is the key in healing. It’s really good to talk to you and share in your healing process ā¤ļø
Tee
ParticipantDear James,
I notice that you seem to be in awe of the body – as a miracle of creation – and believe that our mind (which you equate with the ego) shouldn’t stand in the way of the body’s perfect functioning:
Krishnamurti and I only point out to non attachment to thoughts. Therefore, they disseappears inevitably and becomes a tool for body to function. Such As heart or liver.
Before enlightenment chopping wood and carrying water does by you, and after does by body.
I am not important, just a physical organism.
Yes, definitely life is all about action. Yet, the body acts or you?
The bodyās dance with the environment is what love and the moment truly are.
Human body is indeed quite a marvelous thing. But so are animal bodies too. Some animals possess greater strength and speed than a human body, for example. Greater abilities. What animals don’t have though is self-awareness. You said it yourself:
Look at your body. Look at your hands, your eyes, your lungs, your heartbeat. Once nothing, now a miracle. From nothing, you are alive, aware, conscious. Do you see it?
Yes, we humans are aware and conscious. We have the ability to witness our thoughts and feelings. Otherwise we wouldn’t be different than animals. We wouldn’t be a different species. So I don’t agree with the notion that “we’re just a physical organism”.
We are endowed with the ability to think, and we can use it for good or for bad. We can get stuck in the ego, or we can align our thoughts with our true self. We can be in the consciousness of separation, or in the consciousness of oneness with God.
Our thoughts and beliefs can be beneficial, or they can be damaging for us and our body. Because you’re right, stress can cause the body to get sick. So we need to be in the right mindset. Still, it’s a mindset.
The mind is not the enemy, although it can be, and it often is. But you seem to believe that it is always the enemy. And that only the body is what is good about us. Which I think is denying our true nature.
I can imagine why you might have reached that conclusion though (that the mind is bad, while the body is good). You said that in the past you have been trying very hard, trying to control things, and it didn’t serve you well. And it’s understandable that you wanted to let go of control completely. At least, the ego control.
However, I believe that the mind and the ego are not synonyms, because our mind can be aligned with the divine mind and the consciousness of oneness with God.
Tee
ParticipantHi dear Anita š
Thank you for saying this because it makes me think, go back in time, and what I remember is that I was too weak, too devastated to think that I could possibly prove her wrong. She was too dominant, too loud, dominating. It was all her, no me. I was sickeningly submissive to her.. was physically there, but no agency.
Right, I remember you said you let her clothe you and bathe you even in your teenage years. And now you say you let her hit you till you were in your early 20s. I’d say I wasn’t that resigned/subdued/helpless physically, however I felt like that emotionally and mentally, because I believed her criticism of me, her view of me (that I was worthless, not good enough, even a creep).
My attempts to resist her qualifications of me – at least those that I am consciously aware of – only started in my early 30s, when I started working on myself and became interested in personal growth. That’s when I became aware of a voice inside of my mind that is rebellious towards my mother and wants to prove her wrong.
There was a certain spite in that voice (“I’ll show you, just you wait!”). I was dreaming of doing something big, becoming very successful – there was a lot of grandeur in that voice. I remember you too said you were dreaming of becoming a world renowned dancer or performer, right?
That part of me belonged to my ego, and it tried to compensate for my feelings of worthlessness. So it had to achieve something extraordinary, something that figuratively speaking the entire world would get to see and admire. (I guess I had that drive in me since my early 20s, after finishing school and joining the workforce, but I only became aware of it in my early 30s, after starting working on myself and understanding my psychology).
I donāt remember trying to prove her wrong.. no, wait, I did try to defend myself against her accusations but she punished me for any effort to defend myself, every defense on my part was met with escalated offense.
Right, you were punished for trying to defend yourself and prove that you didn’t mean anything bad. And so you’ve realized after a while that there is no point in trying to defend yourself, because it will only make things worse. But the anger remained in you. You said you sometimes did give her an angry stare, right? Perhaps that was the only outward expression of anger that you sometimes dared to express?
This is true later in life. I suppose the āprotectorā part of me died early on, and then, many years later, resurrected.
Hmm, I don’t think it died. Your anger remained in you, as well as your impulse to defend yourself, to prove that you’re not a bad person. But it was suppressed, at least in front of your mother. Perhaps later, when you moved far away from your mother, this anger got more room to be expressed? Or perhaps therapy was the first time you allowed to express it?
You did start consciously expressing your anger – giving it voice – here on the forums, in your own threads. You gave yourself permission to express anger towards your mother, and you said it felt good to do it.
But my impression is that this anger then got stuck – because a part of you (your inner child) still didn’t feel good enough. A part of you still believed your mother, even if another part – your adult self – stopped believing her. As a result, you still had the need to prove that you’re not bad, and you would get angry if you perceived that someone believes you’re bad.
In other words, your angry protector part felt the need to protect you from your mother’s unfair accusations – because a part of you still believed them. At least that’s my impression of what was going on here on the forums, in some of the exchanges.
To use your own words, in the past you went “belly up” when faced with abuse (real abuse). And now, you chose to defend yourself – but from the angry protector part – when faced with real or perceived abuse.
Let me know if this sounds true?
Thank you, Tee, ā¤ļø back to you.
I hope this is not too heavy for you..?
You’re welcome, Anita ā¤ļø And no, it’s not heavy for me at all. I like to talk about and better understand our psychological defenses (both mine and those of other people), and so I’m happy that we can have this conversation. š I hope it is not heavy for you though? If it is, let me know…
Tee
ParticipantHi Anita,
In my personal story, in-the-beginning God (my mother) created the heavens and the earth (my core beliefs), darkness was over the surface of the deep, and her spirit hovering over the waters, telling me: You are bad! Shame on you..!
Your mother probably adopted the belief that she is good and you’re bad/evil. The belief born out of duality. Probably somewhere deep down she felt inadequate too, she certainly didn’t love herself. But she suppressed that feeling and that core belief (of not being good enough) and projected all badness onto you. She labeled you as the “bad one”, and herself as the “good one”.
So, I believed (and resisted the idea) that I was bad. Never free of that darkness.
Yes, that’s a normal reaction! A part of you believed her, but a part of you resisted her and wanted to prove her wrong. And it so happens that when we believe we’re inherently bad, we want to prove to everyone (not just our parents) that we’re good.
So there is a constant battle inside of our mind: the inner critic telling us that we’re bad, while our protector part (which is another part of the ego, also caught in duality), trying to prove to ourselves and others that we’re good. Basically, we’re fighting ourselves, while also fighting others, believing that they think we’re bad.
āwhen we see the other as a threat, as evilā- I saw myself as evil. I saw me as āthe otherā (self fragmentation, dissociation, alienation). And I often perceived othersā reactions to me.. othersā feedback on what I shared, othersā advice, etc., as re-accusations that I was indeed bad, and that I should be ashamed of myself.
I think that a part of you saw yourself as bad. That part was your inner critic, which is the internalized voice of your mother. Whereas another part was trying to prove (to yourself and your mother and the world) that you’re not bad. You were very sensitive to how people perceive you, because you didn’t want that they perceive you as bad. And so even the slightest disagreement or unfavorable feedback felt like people telling you that you’re bad. And this caused this other part (I call it “protector”) to react with anger and defend your “goodness.”
I think this was the dynamic. Let me know whether it resonates?
I am making progress in this regard.
I’m happy about it! ā¤ļø
I am looking forward to reading more of your interpretation and thoughts
I hope that this was helpful and looking forward to chat some more š
Tee
ParticipantHi Alessa,
good to hear from you again! I hope you’ve recovered a little after the loss of your beloved dog ā¤ļø
Yes, Iām a fan of do unto others as well. š I think people have a lot of difficulty with love thy neighbour too, possibly because they have difficulties with loving themselves?
Yes, you’re really super caring with others, at least this is what I’m witnessing on this forum ā¤ļø And yes, I believe whenever people are harsh and uncaring towards others, that’s because they have a problem loving themselves…
Trauma does make things complicated. One of the hardest things is that once the experience is over it still continues in the mind.
I do have boundaries and stand up for myself. It is just that I donāt try as hard for myself as for other people. Boundaries and standing up for myself is a bare minimum. As you suggested before, cutting back on the effort I put into people who donāt put effort into me. The energy that I spend elsewhere could be spent on me.
Yes, trauma can make us hypervigilant and keen to please others, because that was our survival mechanism in childhood. That’s how we might have ensured to be “loved” and accepted, or even how we prevented physical abuse. Standing up for ourselves might really feel scary, even if we’re in completely different circumstances now, as adults…
It’s good that you do have boundaries and can stand up for yourself. Maybe the problem is that you give up standing up for yourself after a while? Perhaps staying in the relationship is more important to you than the person respecting your boundaries?
I think that most people (at least those who are emotionally healthy) are kind and wouldn’t have a problem respecting your boundaries when you ask them. But there are people who unfortunately don’t care about our boundaries and don’t have a problem crossing them. I guess you have a problem with that kind of people? Those who ignore your boundaries, and then you’d need to stand your ground, but you sometimes have a hard time doing that, because it feels uncomfortable to stay in conflict with them for too long?
I think Iāve been on both sides of the spectrum. Being too hard on people and going too easy on them. It is hard to find a balance.
That’s understandable. Finding a balanced approach is not easy, being assertive, and neither aggressive nor overly permissive. If I remember well, you said that nowadays you’re able to self-soothe when you feel that the other person isn’t respecting your boundaries. Whereas in the past you might have felt unable to self-soothe, and so you felt a greater pressure to react and “demand” that you be respected? Do you think that might be the reason why you’re more “lenient” nowadays?
But perhaps now you’re keen to preserve the relationship and are even hoping that the other person would change if you’re patient enough? And so you put a lot of effort in the relationship (“the effort I put into people who donāt put effort into me. The energy that I spend elsewhere could be spent on me”), even when the person is not really interested in changing their behavior?
This is just an idea, of course, doesn’t mean it’s true for you…
How are you otherwise, Alessa? I figure busy with your studies (and taking care of your son, of course)? ā¤ļø
Tee
ParticipantHi James,
even knowing this makes one closer to realization or ego death.
Because, as much as one get closer to Truth inevatibly one dies.
And rest is pure beauty.
And most important thing to understand is, death is not something scary, it is absolutely beautiful.
I agree… the death of the ego is the goal. It’s something to strive for, because the ego keeps us in separation and duality.
You wrote a beautiful poem in September, which I believe was about your own ego death, when you let go of everything, and then something beautiful emerged: “And in that poverty, in that total collapse of āJamesā, something begins to shine. Not as James. Not for James. But as what always was, waiting patiently behind the veil. Poor James⦠Finally, what remains is rich beyond measure.”
Our true self is indeed rich beyond measure. I think where we might not understand each other is that you seem to claim that true self doesn’t exist. That even the witness should dissolve:
Just be witness, till witness dissolves.
I believe the witness, i.e. the observer, is a part of our true self. Our divine self. And I don’t think it should dissolve, at least not while we’re in embodiment.
Just life is happening now, yet You are not the player, only the watcher, not even.
Indeed, many times we can’t control what’s happening to us. Life has a way of surprising us, and not always in a good way.
The question is what we should do about it. I like your idea that we should witness it/observe it (which helps us not get overwhelmed), but eventually, you say the witness should also dissolve?
Honestly, to me, it sounds like escaping… not making any decisions, even the necessary ones. Because not making a decision is also a decision… I wonder what are your thoughts on this?
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