Dear Jana,

I’m very sorry to hear about your difficult family situation, where you feel like you cannot help much because your help is rejected, whereas the consequences are pretty dire, I assume, specially for the children involved.

I’d first like to ask: are the children (your nephews) safe? Because being parented by a schizophrenic and an alcoholic (though a functioning one) could easily lead to child abuse and/or neglect, and child protective services may need to be involved?

If something happens, something bad, I will never forgive myself.

Yes, your nephews’ safety is the most important. I think if you feel their physical safety may be at stake, you might need to make some steps, like contacting the authorities, even if it may be very uncomfortable for you, because you wouldn’t want something bad to happen down the line.

Sometimes we need to do something, whereas sometimes we need to learn to accept the situation and let go. And sometimes it’s a combination of making some steps (e.g. setting boundaries for the things that we absolutely cannot accept, i.e. which are our red lines), while accepting the rest of it because the person is not cooperative. It all depends on the situation.

This seems like a serious situation. Maybe the biggest question is whether it is the type of situation where the only thing you can do is to “radically accept” it, or whether there is something you could still do to prevent even worse things from happening?

I’d love to talk to you more about it and explore your options. Perhaps you can even start a separate thread about it, to give it the attention it deserves? Because this thread is already “overgrown” with dozens and dozens of unrelated posts, so perhaps you want to elevate it to a separate thread, so that it gets the attention it deserves? But of course, it’s up to you, I’ll be happy to talk about it anyway ❤️

A slight correction: I feel instead of a smiley after “tough and tiring”, a perplexed face would be more appropriate: tough and tiring :/ Don’t know how to bring that emoticon about, but anyway, it hasn’t been an easy-breezy experience for sure…

Hi Anita,

What I asked in my last reply to you was: do you mean that it’s okay for you, Tee, at this point and onward (being that I will no longer refer to you negatively and indirectly, and being that you are welcomed to communicate with me directly)- to discuss me negatively with other members (whether I join the conversation or not)?

Hmm… so you’re suggesting that from now on, I cannot speak about your posts to me, or my posts to you (i.e. our exchange on this thread), with anyone else but you? Even if those posts are on a public forum?

But Anita, you’ve expressed new grievances against me – accusing me of rallying people to attack you – in your post on Sept 8, 11:50 am. What if someone were to comment on that post? (like Brandy did – thank you Brandy for noticing how disturbing Anita’s new allegations were). Am I not allowed to respond to them and share my impressions?

In other words, why do you think it’s okay to ban possible negative comments about you – when you freely, and publicly, express negative comments about me?

Doesn’t it remind you of the situation with your SOCJ journal at the end of July, where you asked people not to post, while continuing to speak badly of me and Alessa (and possibly other members of the forum)? You allowed yourself to speak badly of others, but tried to prevent those same others (or anybody else who would come to their defense) to respond.

Is that your idea of a safe space: safe for you to say whatever you want, no matter how hurtful it is, and then be shielded from any negative feedback?

Tee- I’ve been reading Every Single One of your hundreds+ of posts for years. You are not a stranger to me- I feel like I got to know you over the years: your rationality and your emotionality.

And yet, you felt it’s okay to accuse me, rather harshly, and to keep accusing me, even in your recent post (Sept 8, 11:50 am), of all manner of things? In that post, you’ve apologized for speaking badly of me in your SOCJ journal in July/August, but you came up with new accusations regarding how I interact with other members. You haven’t replied to my post (Sept 9, 1:46 am), in which I’ve shared my perspective on your new accusations – but instead, you’re trying to limit whom I can speak to?

I want to resolve the conflict with you, Tee. Please give me a chance. Just you and me- for now. I am real. I am honest.

If you were honest, Anita, you wouldn’t try to silence me. You would have replied to my post and we could have kept the conversation going, perhaps. But you chose a different route: the route of trying to silence me, to convince me that I shouldn’t speak to anyone else but you.

I’m sorry, Anita, but I’m not interested in playing by those rules. It doesn’t seem like a gesture of goodwill, but of control.

You’re now speaking of love:

As I am now= hopeful, wanting connection, wanting to love and be loved, no optics, no pretenses.. just simple love, nothing weird.

But control is not love. I wonder if you can see that?

Dear Alessa,

I worry that I hurt your feelings and made you sad again.

No, not at all, really. I’m glad you understand my feelings and my perspective. ❤️

I know you worry a lot about hurting people. But I can positively tell you that you didn’t hurt me – so please don’t worry ❤️

I’m sorry for panicking and rushing things. I just wanted to be there from start to finish and I couldn’t cope with any more arguing.

I figured that, Alessa. I know that witnessing conflict is hard for you.

I don’t want to be too forthcoming, but have you maybe explored why this is so? Not that you need to address it here, or talk about it, just an idea. Please disregard if it doesn’t apply 🙂

Sending you love! ❤️

Hi Alessa,

I know you were feeling stressed and really wanted the conflict to calm down. You really wanted us to reach a “compromise”, although I don’t think that’s the best expression for interpersonal, i.e. relationship conflicts. But yeah, there has to be a common ground, a common understanding of what happened, in order to reach any kind of agreement. And that unfortunately was missing here.

Let me address some of your points:

I feel like the difficulty for Anita might be that she feels like she isn’t being heard at all. That it feels like she has to take responsibility for everything and that her pain hasn’t been acknowledged by you Tee (Sept 7)

Well, the thing is that I’ve acknowledged Anita’s pain back in July, when I apologized for inadvertently causing her pain by suggesting compassion and radical acceptance as a path forward. She refused my apology and started attacking me. And she hasn’t changed her stance since.

She hasn’t acknowledged my pain about being attacked by her – whereas I have acknowledged her pain, caused my ill-fitted advice. I apologized for causing her pain right away. She never apologized for my pain.

So I’ve heard her, but she’s never heard me.

Tee and Anita you both believe in naming harm and defending yourselves strongly.

Okay, let’s unpack this:

Anita named two main sources of pain, i.e. harm:

Pain 1: she was hurt by my suggesting compassion and radical acceptance as a possible path forward. I apologized. She refused my apology and launched an attack.

Pain 2: Anita was hurt by my asking Lori to intervene – which I did to protect myself and you from further attacks. So my protective measure to set a boundary on her verbal attacks was seen as harm to her. Which means that Anita’s notion of harm is distorted: she doesn’t acknowledge that she’s done any harm to me, and she sees my legitimate attempt to protect myself from her attacks as harmful to her. So, flipping things on her head.

I was defending myself “strongly” because I couldn’t accept being blamed for protecting myself. Anita made me into an abuser twice: the first time, when I suggested compassion and radical acceptance (for which I apologized, but that was rejected), and the second time, when I attempted to protect myself from her verbal attacks (for which I refused to apologize, because it was basically accusing the victim of being the abuser, turning things upside down).

Everyone is vulnerable here, everyone is hurt.

C-PTSD, Tourettes and ADHD can lead to feeling being bigger than they normally are for others and last longer. I want to be clear. It is not her fault that Anita has these conditions.

I do believe that a lot of us here have suffered from childhood trauma and have a degree of C-PTSD (myself included), but also that many of us have worked on our healing and made good progress. Anita has always been stressing the progress she’s made in her own healing.

And besides, she has been able to engage with numerous people on the forums, hear them out, and offer them her empathy and understanding. She is very capable of understanding other people’s pain.

But in this particular case, she was completely closed off for understanding our pain. She just couldn’t step out of the mentality that she was the only one harmed.

Anita has indicated that she is willing to compromise (Sept 6).

Well, according to her own words, Anita rejoined the discussion to “reclaim truth”:

I’m sharing this not to reopen conflict, but to reclaim truth.

But that was her subjective truth. She kept insisting on her version of events, in which she was the only victim – the party that was harmed – and hasn’t done anything wrong.

There was no opening in Anita to hear me (or us), to hear and understand our pain. She was still only interested in her own pain.

If one party completely dismisses any responsibility for hurting the other – where that hurt objectively happened – how can there be a common ground? If there is no shared understanding of what happened, there cannot be conflict resolution. You cannot compromise with someone who isn’t willing to give a single inch, but is stuck in their narrative that they haven’t harmed anyone.

I know, Alessa, that you were very keen that we find that common ground. But it wasn’t really possible, because I wouldn’t accept that I was the abuser for wanting to protect myself, while Anita wouldn’t accept that she’s done any harm to us.

And what you get as a result is an unsolvable conflict, with both parties firmly stuck in their trenches. Only I believe I had the right to stay there, because I wouldn’t accept the blame for protecting myself. Whereas Anita refused to show any accountability for her actions. So her staying “entrenched” is a result of a blind spot, rather than of what really happened.

Tee has indicated that she is open to compromising when she feels heard.
Can you help Tee to feel heard Anita? Tee is happy to work towards a resolution with you then.

This is true: I really needed to feel heard, rather than blamed for protecting myself.

I’d also like to address what you said that you felt the communication during the conflict was disrespectful:

I don’t think the conflict on this thread has been respectful. I reported it for moderation and it was decided that it was respectful enough unless someone asks for something to change. It is a little bizarre to me. Not the first time I have seen moderators taking a passive approach. I just feel more comfortable in communities with more active moderation approaches.

At first I was surprised when I’ve read this, because I didn’t feel the conversation was disrespectful. However, I’d thought about it and yeah, it certainly wasn’t lovey-dovey. It was tough.

I do tend to close my heart when I don’t feel I’m being heard, and that my side of the story and my feelings are completely dismissed. Which has been the case in this conflict. Even though Anita said the words: Tee, I hear your pain and your perspective, she hasn’t really heard me. She dismissed the possibility that she caused me any pain.

In those instances, I am in defense mode, I am on guard. And it reflects in my language and my style too. Maybe that’s what you were picking up?

From the first moment Anita re-entered the conversation, she said her goal was to “reclaim truth”. And right from her first post, it became clear that the “truth” she is talking about is her subjective version of events, in which she is the only person harmed.

And so from her first post, I took a defensive stance, because I saw there is no opening for my version of the story and my truth.

Sorry for repeating myself a lot. I’m just trying to clarify my perspective… I hope I managed somewhat?

And I’m glad you’re open to talk these things through and share your feelings and impressions. ❤️

Dear Jana,

you’re welcome!

I will look into it also for this reason – I don’t want others to be so deeply effected by my own emotions. I want to learn to take care of myself with peace and some grace… not to overreact as I did… I felt silly after that. And I could hurt others, as well…

You had a strong reaction, but you quickly picked yourself up and could reflect on what happened and why you were triggered. You posted again and self-reflected, not accusing anyone for your strong reaction, but simply observing, stating how you feel, willing to explore.

And that’s a great gift, Jana. If I remember well, you did say previously that you’ve done a lot of work on yourself. And it shows, because you clearly know how to get back to your center, to your observer self, and take responsibility for your own feelings.

And you don’t stay overwhelmed for too long – you get back to your center. So please don’t be ashamed of yourself. You did well. And you didn’t hurt anyone, at least you didn’t hurt me. I appreciate that you didn’t decide to delete the thread, even if it was getting too much for you at some point.

So thanks for being resilient! 🙂

I very much appreciate that you’re willing to explore difficult feelings and reasons for them in your own self, and are also encouraging others to do so.

About that, I’d just like to say that yes, we are all responsible for our own feelings. Sometimes, those feelings are augmented by past trauma and perhaps real abuse doesn’t even exist in the present day. And sometimes, real abuse does exist, and we need to manage its impact on us. So it’s complicated, and we really need to unpack what’s really going on.

And I see that’s exactly what you’re aiming to do. You gave us all the opportunity to do that on this thread, by initiating it and also keeping it on.

Thank you for that, Jana, and I wish you a peaceful time away from the forums! ❤️

Dear Jana,

thank you for not shutting this thread down and allowing the discussion to unfold, regardless of how uncomfortable it may be.

I am used to not being heard or understood. Overlooked in the end… After all, it was stated – someone else’s needs are more important… Am I surprised? Not really…

I’d like to say, Jana, that I very much understood what you shared in your yesterday’s post, about Anita’s words triggering a reaction in you, reminding you of school bullying that you’ve gone through.

These are the words that Anita wrote (on July 31) that you said triggered you:

BELIEVE Me, be on MY SIDE.
Keep current invalidating people out of my personal space: people who continue my mother’s work of invalidation and judgment.. however politely.

And this is what you felt:

What Anita wrote, and I understand that it is some time ago and I understand that it could be under a lot of emotions, raised a deep fear in me that I will be PUNISHED if I happen to write something, which seems to me now, could be anything… anything that could even just by a mistake be seen as a criticism by Anita.

I too had a feeling that I was punished for saying something Anita didn’t like, and then receiving verbal slaps on the face, not just once, but repeatedly, over a course of a week or so. The “slaps” kept coming, and Anita wouldn’t stop, even after Alessa asked her to, twice. And asked her very nicely.

Getting those slaps was terribly hurtful, because it felt so unfair, so untrue, characterizing me as some bully who is abusing Anita, while I did no such thing. Eventually I resorted to asking Lori to intervene, after Anita insinuated that we would rejoice if she got physically hurt. That was too much. I couldn’t take it any more.

I understand that Tee and Alessa felt that the words were attacking them… and when I read that Anita wouldn’t stop unless a formal authority steps in… it really reminded me of some of my bullies… They wouldn’t stop unless an adult, a teacher maybe, showed up… I had a horrible nightmare, full of violence…

Yes, those words felt like attacks, unfair judgments, and maybe bullying, yes. I don’t want to accuse Anita of bullying, but being told again and again that I’m bad, that I’m hurting her, that I’m a horrible person…. that was tough. And I think it actually reminded me of my mother, because that’s what she used to tell me. She used to accuse me of being bad, of hurting her, when I did nothing wrong. So this might have been an extra reason why I felt so hurt.

Sometimes when I was a child and I happened to appear in someone’s “territoty”, which could be a school corridor or a playground for example, I had to obey… or it would end up in punishment…

I am sorry, Jana, that you have been bullied in your childhood. That you were bullied for simply appearing in the “wrong territory”. And that you were probably physically hurt as well. And I’m sorry that it wouldn’t stop until a teacher or another formal authority stepped in. You must have felt helpless and terrified in those moments. Have you worked on that in therapy? ❤️

When I read the last reaction to Brandy, I just felt that there is no place for me… only for Anita… I don’t matter at all… because Anita claimed herself “the most wounded” and that she doesn’t need to become more resilient… … which is, however, a part of being more responsible for our own emotions, to be resilient and not driven by pain like I did exactly this morning…

There is no place for me, for my pain, for my needs…. because Anita’s pain and needs are more important and she will not do anything about it. This is what my mind – by this time probably horribly distorted by my own difficulties – understood.

Thank you for speaking openly about your pain of being overlooked and cast aside as less important. Of being told (or made feel) that your pain is not as big or important as someone else’s. Of perhaps being told that you need to manage your own emotions, while they (those who bullied you) don’t need to manage theirs?

I think this is actually very similar to what Anita was saying to me and Alessa. She proclaimed her right to speak badly about us, even if Alessa asked her to stop. She wouldn’t consider that her words were hurtful. She was focused only on her own needs, on her own pain.

So I think there is a clear link, and you’re not imagining things. True, Anita didn’t say those things to you, but still, it triggered a reaction because you’ve been told very similar things before, by other people.

Would you like to speak more about that? Would you like to claim the space for talking about your pain, and your pain only? (perhaps starting another thread)

Or if you want to continue here, I’m fine with it. Whatever suits you best…

❤️

Hi Anita,

Tee, Sept 6: “Anita, if you truly want to share honestly, then start by being truthful about some basic facts…”- Ouch!.. How can I possibly proceed communicating with you toward a resolution when you are calling me a liar?

No, I am not calling you a liar. I said that you pretend not to remember whom you were talking about, when it’s pretty clear that it can only be two people. I’m not calling you a liar in general. And if you truly didn’t remember whom you were talking about, I apologize for wrongly accusing you. But it seems you don’t want to communicate with me, i.e. you don’t want to share openly, and you find excuses why you shouldn’t.

But Anita, why don’t you address the issues that were raised by other members? You don’t need to talk to me, or work towards conflict resolution with me, if you don’t want to. Talk to other forum members.

I know you did, previously, expressing your affection. But I think everybody would appreciate if you addressed the pain points as well. As I said, some people felt that this place isn’t safe enough because of how you react to different opinions. Would you like to speak about that?