Hi Alessa,

thanks for your concern about my health ❤️ (I cannot copy-paste the blue heart, which you switched to and which I too like, so I stay by the red version 😊 )

It’s not the best, but I cannot afford myself to start catastrophizing, so I’m trying to emotionally regulate myself while also seeking treatment. Hope this newest issue won’t last for too long 🙏

Yes, it’s the authoritative parenting style that is recommended these days. It is what I try to follow.

Oh, I haven’t heard about authoritative parenting style. I’ve just looked it up: it’s a balanced approach, neither strict and harsh (which is called authoritarian), nor permissive. This is a brief description:

Authoritative parents steer a middle path. They are warm and responsive, like permissive parents. They avoid harsh punishment, and allow room for a child to exercise some autonomy. But where permissive parents shrink away from enforcing standards, authoritative parents embrace it. They expect maturity and cooperation (as much as is appropriate for a child’s stage of development), and they guide behavior by reasoning with their kids.

Sounds good, Alessa! Sounds like a good, healthy approach, where the child is given love, empathy and warmth, but is also gently guided to steer away from bad behavior. ❤️ 👍

No doubt I still make mistakes Tee, even when I try not to. I’m lucky in that I have never shouted at my son. It seems like most parents do. The idea makes me feel very uncomfortable.

Sure, we all make mistakes, parents included. I imagine it takes a very strong self-control to never raise a voice with your child. But you’re doing it, you’re really trying your best to make him feel loved and accepted in every moment ❤️

I can’t even imagine how hard it was for you to start having those intrusive thoughts about your son when he would start crying. And it wasn’t your fault, it was your trauma being reactivated. But you did everything in your power to treat your intrusive thoughts earlier, before getting pregnant, and so when they’ve reappeared in a new form, you knew how to stop yourself from acting on them.

That’s remarkable, Alessa! It shows how much effort you’ve invested in your healing, not only for yourself but also for the benefit of your son ❤️

And you were proactive: you started arranging for help while still being pregnant with your son, because you were aware that things might get challenging, and your therapist at the time suggested it. So you really did everything in your power to be a good, prepared mother, and to have a support network if things get too challenging. And I hope you did get help during your postpartum depression?

At the same time, I’m sorry to hear that it wasn’t easy to get free help, and that you had to go through various mental health evaluations while also worrying if they would see you fit to be a mother. It must have been very frightening, Alessa, and I salute you for putting yourself through that.

You did it because you had one major goal: to be the best possible mother to your child. And this is what makes you an AMAZING mother, Alessa. Extremely self-aware, responsible, loving, caring… all of it ❤️❤️

My mother always said that something changed in her after she had children. Perhaps she might have had some kind of postpartum mental health issue that was untreat.

Possibly, because C-PTSD can be triggered by the stress of having a child. And no wonder, since it’s a significant stress for a more mentally healthy person too. So yeah, I can imagine it caused her to go overboard or something. Still, she hasn’t looked for help till much much later, right? And she was blaming you (her children) for some of her bad behavior.

I see that as the biggest problem: when the parent doesn’t want to admit that their reactions are inappropriate, that they aren’t able to emotionally regulate themselves, that they do abusive things when triggered, etc. So this unwillingness to admit there’s something wrong with them, that the stress they’re experiencing is not only coming from the outside, but also from within.

I would argue that for parents who are so abusive, yet they don’t admit it. There is an element of delusion there. How can someone who isn’t even present with reality ask for help?

Yes, there’s definitely delusion. Narcissistic people are famous for self-delusion: they’d never admit there’s something wrong with them. Always blaming others. And when you combine that with some other mental health disorders, I can imagine that the level of abuse can get pretty severe, because they don’t have the capacity (or the willingness) to self-reflect.

Of course, I don’t know what mental health issues your mother was suffering from, so I’m speaking in general. But it seems to me that the person can commit abuse when they either lack the capacity to self-reflect or lack the willingness to self-reflect. I see narcissism as lacking willingness to self-reflect, even though they might have the cognitive capacity for that. But I’m not an expert, so this might not be true. I guess things are more complicated than that…

I would argue that there are plenty of signs of child abuse beyond the obvious broken bones. It really depends on training. In the past, there was not a lot of training.

For example, my doctor should have spotted signs of severe child abuse. But back then they didn’t care about these things.

Migraines, bladder trouble, vomiting, constipation, fainting. These are signs of extreme levels of stress.

Very good point! Certain physical problems in children can indicate abuse, even if no bruises or broken bones are present. I do hope pediatricians are more observant to those symptoms and more educated about it than before!

I disagree with putting all of the responsibility on children to report severe abuse. It is common for parents to the threaten children to not speak out. Unless they trust that someone can or will actually going to do something about it, they keep quiet for their own safety.

Absolutely! It shouldn’t be on children to report abuse, because as you say, children are often intimidated and threatened. It should be the responsibility of teachers, coaches, pediatricians… to notice that something is amiss.

When I was a child, there was only one psychologist in our school (a school with more thousand children), and she was only dealing with children who caused trouble, with “bad” kids. Everybody was afraid of her, so I guess she wasn’t the best psychologist but was probably strict and threatening. I hope that nowadays, quality school counseling is more available, both for elementary and secondary school children.

You could argue that being withdrawn and shy itself needs investigating because it could be a mental health issue. These things require treatment, no matter the cause of you ask me.

Yes, it would be nice if every child would get individual attention, not only the trouble makers. That every child feels seen and not judged… Yeah, much more would need to be invested in mental health, but perhaps what would be important is to invest in the teachers’ mental health (and their education about mental health), so they can be a good role-model – something that many kids don’t have at home…

❤️❤️

Dear Anita,

You asked me about my health, and thank you for your care 🤍 Well, it’s not the best, but it’s not awful either. There are new issues that I hope to deal with in due time… my feelings are a roller-coaster, but I manage to self-regulate eventually and come to a place of peace and acceptance.. in short, it’s not easy, but it’s manageable 🙏

Okay.. you WERE there!!! I was not alone, or better say, I am not alone.

haha 🙂 not exactly, because I haven’t achieved success in life, at least not material success, so she didn’t say those things to me. But I saw it in various youtube videos, the experts on narcissism were good at portraying how a covert narcissistic parent would react to their child’s success.

If I could go back in time, I would choose her aborting me simply because it’d be way, way less painful to be aborted and it wouldn’t take long. So, I am not grateful to her in this regard.

When I thanked her in the earlier message for the food, clothes, etc., I thanked her for these things in isolation, as in (the unreal) context of not having been guilt- tripped about it.

Right, I totally understand that you didn’t thank her in general, for giving you life, but in isolation, for those material things she gave you. But they were always contaminated by guilt-tripping, and it’s hard to be grateful for a poison-laced cake…

As for being grateful for being born, there are spiritual teachings that claim that we (our soul) actually choose our parents. Because we need to learn certain lessons. I’m not opposed to this theory, because for me it’s easier to think that in the big scheme of things, I’m not a victim, even if I’ve experienced abuse. Of course, it doesn’t exculpate our parents from bad parenting, but it helps me see everything that’s happening as somehow necessary for my soul’s growth.

But I also understand that some forms of abuse are just too much, and I have a hard time accepting that it would be necessary for anyone’s growth. So yeah, it’s a mystery to me, but I find it easier to believe that I’m not a victim because it helps me not to get stuck in the victim mentality and actually do something to help myself…

Had a long conversation with a 30+ year old Byron about judgmental, rejecting mothers. (her experience, so many of us)

That’s great that you can have an honest conversation with someone at the taproom! I guess it feels good to feel understood and validated…

Was at the taproom this TUES night, saw the taproom owner. I think he perceived my anger last Tues night, about him never visiting. Nothing was said tonight.

Okay, so you’re not on speaking terms at the moment? Or just the perfunctory greeting, but nothing more than that?

Rode from the Taproom to home through the (former) Winery.. glanced just once to my right.. the (gone) Winery. Seems like it means to me EMOTIONALLY more than it meant to anyone.

My HEART is still there, Tee. I want to be there NOW.

I want to dance there NOW.

Yes, you did say that the winery felt like home to you. Working there gave you fulfillment and meaning, I guess it met some of your core emotional needs? You said wine helped you talk (and dance)- so as you socialized with people in the winery, over a glass of wine, you felt free to express yourself and less afraid of their judgment – something you never had with your mother?

even if you were stating the obvious, the way you state things is uniquely clear and original. This reminds me of your very first post on tiny buddha were you explained Attachment:

haha, thank you, Anita! 🙂 Actually, for the longest time, I had a problem understanding the Buddhist concept of non-attachment, because I know there is also healthy attachment, which is a healthy bond between a parent and a child, or a healthy bond between partners in a romantic relationship.

I think attachment is the cause of suffering if it is unhealthy – if it means clinging to something that cannot be, or to ego-driven goals. But it’s not unhealthy to be in a loving relationship, which is actually based on a healthy (i.e. secure) attachment. So I think attachment is not always unhealthy, but clinging and grasping is.

🙏 🫶 🤍 🙏

Dear Anita,

I’m thrilled to hear that your depression has lifted and that even though you heard some disturbing news yesterday, you’re still feeling okay and keeping yourself occupied with cleaning the house and studying Tao 😊

And it’s nice that you were given the wooden sign with the Winery’s name on it. This, I hope, will be a nice memento of those 4 beautiful years…

Later on, after the cleaning+, I want to be involved in some volunteer work.. maybe helping older people who are facing the end of life.. Like in a nursery home.

I’m thinking of volunteering in an old people’s home, old being late 70s, 80s, 90s- to uplift them before they die.

Sounds great, and a very noble idea! 🤍 You can still be helping and volunteering, only in a different capacity. As you said, there are plenty of people who need help, plenty of causes that you can put your heart into.

I’m really happy you feel like you’ve found your true self and gained self-esteem and a positive self-image during these past 4 years. And also that you’ll never allow yourself to be a non-entity in your own life. Remember, your needs matter, your voice and opinion matter. You are equally worthy as anyone else! 🫶 🤍

I have photos and videos I took over time.

Perhaps you can develop a few of the best photos and put it in an album or hang it on the wall? To have that as another memento?

I’m happy you’re feeling better, Anita, that the pain is subsiding and the path forward is becoming more visible. I am rooting for you from the bottom of my heart!

🙏 🫶 🤍 🙏

Dear Anita,

It’s so good to read what you’ve recently concluded about yourself (what you’ve shared on Peter’s thread):

As I came to understand only 10 minutes ago, in my own thread, Flow is possible for me only if I think highly of myself- not in a grandiose, Narcissistic way, of course- but me approving of myself as a good, helpful, hard-working person. Only then I can step off the raft and feel heaven (“I am okay after all! I am worthy, I am good!”) under my feet.

Yes!! Self-love, self-acceptance, and self-validation! Believing that you’re a good, kind, helpful person, a person with virtues, and that you are worthy! That’s the core of healthy self-esteem. And it’s not narcissistic, because narcissistic people believe they are better than others, whereas healthy self-esteem is believing that we are all equally worthy. Each of us is unique, but we are all equally worthy.

This here is a profound realization:

I think that the thing I loved most about it is who I found myself to be: social, empathetic, helpful, hard-working. very heard-working (SO THHERE, Mother.. anger there). I had so much excellent socialization. honest, felt so good.

It’s the me (myself) that I experienced in a new way- someone even I liked, someone.. I looked up to at times! Ahh! A unique experience!!!

Yess! You loved who you were while in that environment: hard-working, helpful, sociable, kind person, sincerely appreciated by others.

And indeed, you found yourself, even as the place where it happened is sadly lost:

The Winery is lost forever (It still hits me hard, tears in my eyes!!!)

But I am not lost, who I found myself to be- is not lost.

And that’s the most important: you found your true, authentic self, which is like winning the grand prize! 😊 Even as you’re grieving the loss of these past 4 years of your life, which have been amazing, you’re also realizing that you’ve won something lasting, something eternal, something that can never be lost: your true self 🌟

The feeling inside me that I am a good person, like people have said about me: “She’s the hardest working person I’ve ever seen”, and: “Anita, oh, she’s wonderful, she helps everyone.. she never stops, she just keeps going ang going..”

That loss hurts the most.. like my newly-found self-worth is tied to the Winery, and as it’s gone, no longer there.. So is my newly found self-worth.

I hope your newly-found self-worth goes beyond the Winery, because you can be a hard-working, helpful, empathetic person everywhere you go. You can give from your heart everywhere you go.

You’re already being a helpful, empathetic, caring person here on Tiny Buddha as well, so this is natural for you. And I’m sure there will be other opportunities to be your true self: in fact, every day is an opportunity for that 🤍 🌟

.. And, Tee, back to our conversation about mothers.. HOW DARE she all THOSE YEARS, all those decades- push on the message that I was Bad and Lazy when it was NEVER TRUE.

Yes, she was telling you lies about yourself and conditioned you to accept those lies. But you’ve started realizing and accepted that none of that was true. You’ve gone through a process of re-evaluation of everything she’s told you, and you’ve discovered your true self: hard-working, loving, caring, selfless… someone to look up to (It’s the me (myself) that I experienced in a new way- someone even I liked, someone.. I looked up to at times!)

And I hope you’ll keep re-affirming that newly found self from this day onward! 🤍 🙏

Dear Anita, I’ll write some more tomorrow. Till then, take care and be gentle with yourself!

🙏 🤍 🫶 🙏

Dear Anita,

I’m okay, not physically, but mentally and emotionally… I’ve done some more letting go (of fear), and anchoring myself in my true self. So at the moment I feel fine, but this can change very quickly. But even if I slip and start feeling bad and depressed, I always try to return to my center… practicing spiritual resilience, of sorts 🙂

I’ve been praying that the sales go through fine, because you said there are some administrative issues. But I’m sorry to hear that it was sold for peanuts, so to speak, and that the new owner is greedy and asks for further perks and allowances 😕

Can you say No to that? Considering that you’re giving so much free stuff and equipment, can you politely but firmly refuse? If those “extras” aren’t in the contract, you don’t need to people-please her. You don’t need to let her rip you off completely…

What do you say? Is there an option to say No?

Dear Anita,

thank you so much for your prayers ❤️ 🙏

You said you’ve recently started to pray again, and I see it as good sign, an opening towards something beyond, an opening that was closed due to the hopelessness of your life with your mother? You said you used to pray as a child (sorry, forgot what it was that you prayed for: for your pain to stop, but also for your mother, right?), but your prayers got unanswered, and so you stopped praying… and stopped believing, I guess?

I’m so sorry about the loss of the winery… it seems it’s been operating with a loss for some time, given that you’ve been trying to sell it? I hope the money you got for it is not just a tiny fraction of what was invested… but I can imagine it’s a very bad feeling, not just from the financial standpoint, but also because it was something you invested a lot of your hard work and effort, and yet, it couldn’t be sustained 😢

But it’s good to hear that you’re not in an immediate danger of losing your home, and that you’re not too worried about it:

I don’t feel a.. clear and present danger of being homeless anytime soon.. but I figure (and I hope I’m figuring wrong) that it’s possible. I am not too worried, really. I take it one day at a time.

Yes! I hope there’s a plan for the post-winery period, which includes the financial dealings and never becoming homeless! 🤞 🙏

As for the situation with the taproom owner, have you ever invited him to come visit the winery? Was he promising but never got to actually do it? I understand your anger and disappointment that people didn’t feel too much empathy, and didn’t bother to pay a visit (except 2 of them) before the winery’s final closing 😕

I’m sorry you’re thinking of never going to the taproom again, since that’s the place where you’ve forged some good relationships… but I understand that if only 2 out of dozens of people there showed interest in the winery’s destiny, that you don’t feel like socializing with them again…

I am besides myself, really.. more disturbed than I felt for YEARS!

But I’m in control on the outside… Just need to figure things out, from here onward.

I’m sorry this has affected you so much… I guess you’ve been anticipating the sale of the winery for some time, but you haven’t anticipated that people would be so neutral about it, not really empathizing with you, not bothering to come and visit. I guess that’s what really hurts…😕

But yeah, try to remain cool-headed in terms of figuring out your next steps and making the best possible decision, considering the circumstances.

Wishing you strength and good fortune in this new chapter 🙏 I know it’s not what you wanted, but there isn’t much you can do about it but to accept it, and try to make the best of it…

🙏 🤍 🫶 ❤️ 🙏

Dear Alessa,

I too had a feeling that you were coming from your own perspective, that of a single mother (if I got that right) with a history of trauma and abuse. I’ve said it before that I totally appreciate everyone who chooses to be a parent, and that it’s a hard work and a challenge that I myself never felt quite ready for. So I totally appreciate and understand your perspective. ❤️

The main difference between you and Anita’s mother, I believe, is that you acknowledged your own trauma and got therapy for it. And you really didn’t want to give the trauma over to your son.

Unlike that, Anita’s mother never acknowledged that there’s something wrong with her or her parenting. She never received therapy, was never interested in self-development or child psychology (like her brother was), and so she just perpetuated her trauma mindlessly. And with vigor, being totally convinced that what she is doing is right.

So that’s a huge difference between a self-aware mother that you are, and a mother who refuses to look within and take responsibility for her behavior and her emotional reactions.

That’s why I said I can very much empathize with her being a single mother with 2 small children – it’s not an easy task, by any means. Still, the route she chose – of constantly complaining and never seeking help for her predicament (never accepting that she can do something about it) – is not something I can empathize with. Neither of course with her abusing her children.

I know you haven’t said we should empathize with her, or excuse her. You were coming from your own perspective. But thankfully, you’re very different than Anita’s mother, and are truly doing your best to heal and be a good, loving mother to your son.

You’re perhaps even being too hard on yourself, sometimes expecting perfection from yourself, when that’s neither possible nor needed. It’s okay to make mistakes even as parents, as long as we later repair it, so that the child can feel safe with us again. ❤️

As for focusing on the good memories from your childhood, I’m glad you have them. I suppose they serve as anchors, as something positive about your childhood, in spite of all the difficulties you’ve been through, right?

I too have nice memories from my childhood that involve my mother, but it’s mostly when we were in the company of other adults and their children. That’s when I had a good time, because my mother wasn’t focused on me, so I was free to enjoy my time with those children.

When I was alone with my mother, I don’t remember too much joy because she would often criticize me, or not be supportive of me, or just in general be unhappy and complain about her “sad life”. And so there wasn’t much joy in my interactions with my mother…

Society is broken and wrong. I even disagree with the premise that people who abuse in a more covert way are seen as good parents by society. They are simply not seen as problematic enough to use the resources it would cost to remove their children.

Well, social services don’t know if someone is being emotionally abusive to their child… specially if the child isn’t acting out, but is a withdrawn, shy kid, who completes their school tasks, for example. If there are no “screaming” outer signs, nobody would notice, not even the teachers, I guess…

I think it would be great if subjects like emotional intelligence would be taught at school… because school is still all about developing IQ, but not EQ (unless that is changing too?). I know there are some experimental programs in some schools, but it’s not taught on a wide scale…

The world is slowly changing in regards to children. What was accepted, is now illegal.

Yes, and I think parents (in the Western society, at least) are changing and becoming interested in things like conscious parenting and being emotionally better attuned to their children’s needs. So that’s a good development. But I hear there is also a phenomenon of parents becoming too permissive, which is the opposite extreme of the strict, authoritarian parenting style of the old times.

Anyway, I hope that there are more and more parents who are working on their own trauma and learning how to be good, loving parents, and still set boundaries (gently, lovingly).

Things are easier for me now. I love my son and enjoy being a mother. I’m very thankful for the help I got.

This is so good to hear! ❤️ I’m glad you got the help you needed to cope with postpartum depression, and that you’re now happy to be a mom. You’re doing an amazing job, Alessa! ❤️❤️

Hi Alessa,

first, let me say that I know you mean well and didn’t mean anything bad. And my intention wasn’t to defend Anita, but to simply give my perspective on the notion of a “good mother”.

You said that in her own mind, she was a good mother because she provided for her children’s material needs (and she didn’t abandon them – unlike her own father did to her).

The problem is that every narcissistic mother is a good mother in her own mind – she believes she is a perfect mother and can do no wrong.

If we evaluate her based on her own standards, she would be a good mother: didn’t abandon her children, put food on the table, sent them to school, bought them clothes, bought them toys, provided for their material needs.

But if we evaluate her based on how she actually parented, she cannot be called a good mother by any means. She in fact was an abusive mother, even though she provided for her children’s material needs.

So I just wanted to say that her subjective evaluation of herself as a good mother doesn’t really mean anything. Because in her twisted mind, she was the best mother. She didn’t think she should change anything about her parenting. And yet she committed pretty severe abuse.

And that’s what makes narcissistic parents so harmful: they believe they’re great parents, they’re telling you they are the best parent in the world and that they care about you so much, all the while they’re abusing you.

And then when you (their child) dare to say anything, or if you don’t behave the way they want you to behave – you’re called evil, ungrateful, selfish, hurting them etc. You’re made into a villain for simply having normal child’s needs. Or simply for the air you breathe, as it was in Anita’s case.

So this “great mother”, the “best mother” is a lie with which they’re elevating themselves, denying their abuse, gaslighting their children and guilt-tripping them for “hurting” their mother. It’s a ploy to destroy the child, basically.

So when you say (not the exact words, but the point you were making): she believed she was a good mother, and she did everything she thought a good mother should do. And she was a hard-working, busy single mother with no time for herself – it does sound like excusing her.

I’m not saying she wasn’t in a difficult predicament, being a single mother with a history of trauma and abuse. And we can empathize with that.

However, what I’m saying is that it doesn’t matter if she believed she was a good mother. What matters is how she actually behaved towards her children. And that was very abusive. She provided for their physical needs, but was destructive for their mental health. And in Anita’s case, even to her physical well-being (tics).

What’s worse is that she refused to admit there’s anything wrong with her. She never admitted her own trauma. She never admitted she was doing something wrong. And that’s I think the most toxic: being convinced in your own goodness and righteousness, and yet being so harmful to those who depend on you.

You said in your latest post to Anita:

One of the things that you have brought up in the past is that you have difficulty with your trauma because your mother at times tried to express care. But behaved horribly cruelly at other times

Yes, narcissistic mothers can do nice things for us: bake our favorite cake, throw us a birthday party, buy us nice clothes and expensive toys. And yet throughout all that the child feels like not good enough, because of the constant criticism and shaming and complaining on their part. So the “gift” is laced with poison, so to speak.

We might end up feeling undeserving of the gift, because of this constant shaming and self-pitying on their part. The result is severely diminished mental health (C-PTSD), while at the same time having all the material things we can wish for. Not a good deal, if you ask me…

Personally, I’ve found it helpful to see the situation with my Mother for what it was. It is a relief in a strange way, to acknowledge the “good” as well as the bad.

In narcissistic abuse, the “good” is intertwined with the bad, they cannot be separated. Even when we’re receiving the good, we’re also receiving the bad. That’s why it’s hard to appreciate the good: because it was contaminated with the bad. It was poisoned, if you will.

My mother would ride bikes with us to tire us out. And ship us off to people at the church to work on their farm. She would surprise us in the middle of the night occasionally, waking us up to go get pizza. Sometimes during summer we would get ice cream cones.

Maybe your mother was different – maybe she didn’t shame you and criticize you so mercilessly? Maybe during those good times, when you would ride bikes together, she was behaving well with you? Perhaps the memories of the good times (riding bikes, working on a farm, possibly surrounded by healthier adults?) are mostly positive, happy memories, without the contamination of your mother’s toxicity?

But also, a part of the problem with abusive parents is the intermittent reinforcement, where we’re occasionally treated well. And so we long for those “good” times, and downplay/excuse the times were we were abused. And that’s how trauma bond is created…

Anyway, my goal with my previous post wasn’t to accuse anyone, or defend anyone, but to refine our understanding of abusive parents. As I’m writing here, I’m also clarifying things for myself, so please see it in that light.

❤️❤️