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Tee
ParticipantHi Thomas,
I believe Buddha said that all that we have thought is what we are. The meaning is our world is made from our thoughts. When we sit in meditation, we are not trying to get rid of thoughts. We are letting go of thoughts. To not chase them. Not identifying with them. Gradually releasing our grip of the world thru our thoughts. So, Yes, Getting rid of thought that keeps us in separation. Thank you.
You’re welcome, Thomas. Thank you for mentioning the story of Buddha and Ananda. I don’t really know much about Buddhism, so this was very helpful.
I like your new profile pic, too! 😊
Tee
ParticipantThanks Peter for the explanation. I see the mystical explanation as very likely:
The story of eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is traditionally seen as the origin of sin where disobedience ruptured humanity’s innocence. But mystics read it differently. They see it not as a moral failure, but as the birth of duality: the moment consciousness split into opposites, good and evil, right and wrong, self and other.
In this view, the “fall” wasn’t into sin, but into ego. Into the mind’s habit of dividing and naming, of grasping and judging. It was the loss of unity with the divine, replaced by the illusion of separation.
Yes, if we start judging ourselves or others as “sinners”, and we see this as our main identity, that’s definitely the fall into ego, into separation from our divine nature. If we see ourselves as mortal sinners, and that there’s nothing divine in us, that’s the fall, I believe. The consciousness of separation.
As for naming, sometimes we need to name that something is hurtful. Such as hurtful behavior. We need to name the problem in order to solve it. But it doesn’t mean that the person who has said or done something hurtful is a horrible person. That they are a bad person. When we label someone (or ourselves) as bad, and we stop having compassion for them (or ourselves), that’s a recipe for duality and separation.
So I’d differentiate between naming and labeling – one is useful and can help us see things clearly, but the other can lead to judgment and deepening of separation.
Sadly, in my opinion, the traditional view holds the most sway and maybe why law is so often mistaken for love, discipline for devotion and righteousness for relationship. But that may be unkind…
Yes, there’s a lot of rigidity (and lack of compassion) in traditional religious doctrines. Henry Cloud, a Christian psychotherapist, says that healthy Christianity should possess both Truth and Love. Truth (as in law, rules) without Love (compassion, forgiveness) is harsh, judgmental, non-forgiving. Love without Truth is permissive and enabling (e.g. allows the abuse to go unchallenged). He says that we need both Truth and Love for healthy relationships, and I agree…
Tee
ParticipantHi Peter,
when I read your statement -“Getting rid of all thought is not the goal. Getting rid of wrong thought…” the word “wrong” stood out. For me, it introduces a kind of tension, a grasping that clings, rather than the spaciousness that invites a more fluid relationship with thought.
Yes, you’re right. What I meant is unhelpful thought, a thought that will push us even further into separation. And I didn’t even mean “one thought”, as in sometimes we start thinking unhelpful thoughts, e.g. thoughts of helplessness and despair, or thoughts of worthlessness and self-hatred, or thoughts of jealousy and hatred of others. We all might slip into such thoughts from time to time, but if thoughts are like birds, we don’t let them build a nest on top of our head. We observe them and let them go…
By “wrong” thought, I meant the false core belief that we’re separate from God, i.e. that we’re worthless and unlovable, or that we’re abandoned by God. That we’re all alone and helpless. That our life will be suffering till the day we die. I meant that type of thought. It’s more like a conviction: something that is more permanent, more solid, and more difficult to change.
And of course, we shouldn’t judge ourselves if we can’t think more positively. Sometimes our convictions, i.e. or false beliefs, are rooted in personal experience, often in childhood trauma that has shaped how we see ourselves and the world. We might have plenty of “proofs” that make us believe that indeed, we are doomed, for example, or that no one loves us or cares about us.
Our personal experience from childhood has become the lens through which we see the world, and now every new experience is a “proof” to us that our negative beliefs are true (e.g. that we’re bad, unlovable, unworthy, doomed, etc). Our mind can get stuck in this circular thinking and unable to let go of those negative beliefs.
In my experience, the only way to get “unstuck” is healing – in which we rewrite the damaging personal experience from childhood with a new imprint, and thus, we can finally let go of the false core belief. We stop seeing the world through the old distorted lens and our perception changes. And suddenly we are free to have new, fresh experiences, in which we feel loved, cared for, and not doomed, for example.
I’m reminded of the Genesis story where the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is often interpreted as granting divine clarity about what is good or evil. But “knowledge of” is not the same as “knowing what is.” That subtle difference matters (or should more then it tends to). In reaching for that knowledge, we stepped into separation, mistaking the capacity to judge for the wisdom to know. One is a burden; the other, a mystery that unfolds in relationship, in presence, in humility.
To be honest, I don’t know what eating from the Tree of knowledge of good and evil means (although I’ve been pondering on it in the past 🙂 ). But it could be that we shouldn’t judge what is good or evil. That judgment is bad? Possibly.
What I know is that judging ourselves and not having compassion for ourselves certainly leads to separation (from God, i.e. our divine nature). And judging others and not having compassion for them leads to separation from other people.
So yeah, judging ourselves as inadequate in thinking (thinking “wrong” thoughts) is also a form of judgment, and is keeping us in separation. The goal is return to oneness, which I believe can only be done through self-compassion. Healing starts with self-compassion…
Tee
ParticipantHi Peter, James and everyone,
Tee a great break down though I might gently push back on the idea that “the answer should always be hope, love, focusing on the positive.” In my experience, such an approach often turns back on itself, creating the very suffering we seek to release or allow to die.
thanks Peter. I understand your viewpoint of not even hoping for anything positive (or for a specific positive outcome), because that in itself might create suffering if it doesn’t come about.
However, I was speaking from the perspective of someone who is in physical pain, who lost a part of their health and physical well-being irreversibly, and who needs to adapt to and accept the new circumstances.
If I don’t focus on the positive – on what I still have, rather than what I’ve lost – it could very easily lead to depression and despair. Which is the end of the soul.
A part of my hope is that things won’t get much worse health-wise, because they can. While being in the present moment means not focusing on the physical pain, which I feel in that same present moment, but choosing to focus on deeper realities: on my true self and the joy that can come out of it (and does come out of it), even if it doesn’t include the joy of moving freely, dancing etc, i.e. the things that gave me quite a lot of joy in the past.
Or take an extreme example: of people being held hostage. I’d assume that they need to hope that they would be freed some day, otherwise they would have a very hard time surviving the conditions in which they are kept.
So I think that sometimes hope is necessary and desirable, perhaps more so when we find ourselves in physically dire circumstances, perhaps existential circumstances. In other, less challenging circumstances, perhaps it is advisable to stop hoping for some preferred outcome, but simply enjoy the present moment:
The act of dying James speaks of I think points to something different: allowing space in our narratives to remain empty. Not rushing to fill the gap with positivity or certainty, but letting go of the compulsion to replace one story with another. Sometimes, the most compassionate move for ourselves is to leave room for silence, for unknowing because that space can become the doorway to freedom from the known, and to the joy of simply being.
Maybe I’m wrong about this, but it seems to me that enjoying the present moment can only happen if we feel a measure of safety in our body and in our physical environment. And for people who don’t feel that, I believe hope and a positive mindset can help them relax in the present moment and not get overwhelmed by it. Anyway, that’s my take on it, stemming from my personal experience.
I also think we all approach these deeper categories, such as hope, faith, God… from our own vantage point, trying to make sense of our suffering and trying to alleviate it. What works for one person might not work for another. I like what Thomas said that Buddha gave 3 different answers about God to 3 different people (Thomas, Oct 10, page 5 of this thread):
When asked, “Is there a God?” the Buddha answered according to the need of the person. For one person his answer was “No, there is no God.” For another, the answer was “Yes, there is a God.”. And yet a third person asked, “What can you tell me about God?”. The Buddha closed his eyes and the person closed his. After a half hour of silence. The person got up, thanked the Buddha and left.
If I understood well, Buddha gave the answers according to what each of those people needed to reach the next phase of their spiritual development, and eventually spiritual liberation. For some it is letting go of all preconceived ideas about God, or what it means to be a good, worthy person. For some it is finding a deeper meaning in life, not only focusing on material goals. For some, it is getting out of the rat-race and appreciating the present moment. Stopping to smell the roses rather than mindlessly rushing to the next achievement.
So perhaps the real question is what is it that each of us needs in the next phase of our spiritual development, which can help us reach freedom from suffering. If our thoughts keep us in pain and suffering – keep us in the illusion of separation – then we should get rid of those thoughts, as James says.
If for example we believe that we need to achieve something or behave in a certain way so we would be worthy of love – that’s a lie and needs to be abandoned. If we believe that God’s love is conditional and that we need to be perfect in order to be loved – that’s a false belief that needs to be abandoned.
However, if our thoughts and believes are not based on the illusion of separation, and we recognize that we are already loved and one with God – then there’s no need to abandon those thoughts and beliefs. Cognition is what makes us human, neocortex hasn’t developed in vain. Clear thought is a divine quality, I’d dare say.
Getting rid of all thought is not the goal. Getting rid of wrong thought – thought that keeps us in separation and consequently suffering – that’s the goal, in my opinion.
Tee
ParticipantHi everyone,
thanks Peter, that’s a great reflection!
Campbell reminds us that eternity is not a distant realm or something that begins after death, it is a dimension of the present moment, a quality of being that reveals our essence as timeless: never truly born, never truly dying.
Living isn’t about slaying dragons or finding treasure. It’s about waking up to the fact that you were never separate from the treasure to begin with.
I feel and believe the same: that our essence is timeless, and that it is accessible in the here-and-now, i.e. that we are not separate from it.
And I believe that spirituality (to refer to the title of this thread) is getting in touch with our divine essence, aka our true self. Our treasure within.
As for slaying dragons, I think that we actually slay them by realizing that we’re not separate from our true self. That’s when the “dragon” of worthlessness is slayed. Or the dragon of helplessness. Or the dragon of anger. Etc.
Trauma, specially childhood trauma, has an unfortunate consequence of giving us the illusion that we’re separate from our divine nature: that we’re bad, worthless, unlovable, not good enough. Trauma creates and feeds those dragons… To heal the trauma and slay our dragons, we need to get in touch with our true self, with our divine essence. We need to heal the separation.
the game was always rigged in favor of joy, if only we stop trying to win and start playing.
I believe so too. I trust that joy, fulfillment and abundance is the goal, the desired state of our soul. Sometimes, when I’m in physical pain (which causes emotional pain), and I don’t see the end of it, I’m reminded of Jesus’ words: “I am come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.”
We’re meant to have abundant life. A joyful life. Sometimes it’s hard to feel joy and abundance when we’re suffering under the burden of pain. Sometimes what we’ve lost is irreversible. And it’s so easy to slide into hopelessness and despair.
But the answer should always be hope, love, focusing on the positive, on what we still have, not on what we’ve lost. Again and again, choosing our true self, rather than letting our dragons take the best of us.
Perhaps that’s the real battle: choosing love and our true self, rather than the dragons who’re telling us that we’re separate: that there’s no hope, that we can’t make it, that it will never be better… Choosing our true self over the lie of separation….
Tee
ParticipantHi everyone,
Roberta, thanks for the story – yes, it’s a very good metaphor of how sometimes we trust that God would save us, while refusing to do anything to help ourselves, or refusing help from others who could help us, e.g. doctors.
There are cases (again, extreme ones) when parents who are a part of a cult refuse to take the child to the doctor but believe that God will save the child, and that it is God’s will whether the child lives or dies. These are examples of blind faith, where the person has relinquished any agency and leaves all decisions to God (or to God’s “representative”, i.e. the cult leader).
And I think it happens when we’re taught to believe that God (or the Divine) is completely outside of us, that we’re worthless, that we don’t know what’s good for us and can’t make good decisions for ourselves, etc. When God is everything and we are nothing.
Which I think is a toxic belief, because we all possess a “divine spark”. Denying it makes us prone to low self-esteem, learned helplessness, and on a larger scale, submission to authoritarian leaders.
Thomas, that’s a funny story about a mother who is calling for God’s help for every little thing, and then her own child telling her how it looks like 🙂
And yes, the classic: if we want to win the lottery, we need to buy the ticket. So true – we need to make steps and work towards what we want, and only then can God or good fortune help us and make our path a little easier, a little smoother perhaps. But we need to start walking…
Tee
ParticipantHi Peter,
thank you!
We picture hope as active, as a something that must be good, something that will lead us to freedom, but often don’t notice due to our bias, when it becomes passive: waiting for rescue rather than engaging with reality. When hope turns into waiting, trust shifts outward where we have a tendance to place it in leaders or systems instead of our own capacity for inner work and shared responsibility.
I agree, waiting for an external savior, or for something outside of ourselves to relieve us from pain is a misguided hope.
In my own community, I’ve observed a troubling pattern. People speak of hope with conviction, often in religious or cultural terms, but their posture is one of waiting.
Yes, religious doctrine can be a cause for this false hope, e.g. the notion that all our needs and wants will be fulfilled in the afterlife, but that now, in our earthly existence, we need to suffer and accept bad things in our life. Hope for a better future in the afterlife and passivization/resignation in this life.
That alone primes the believers to accept abuse and mistreatment (including by the elites), and not do anything about it. Endure, rather than stand up for oneself and seek one’s rights.
And also, as you say, they may put their faith in some charismatic leader, who gives them a promise of solving all of their problems. Cults are an extreme example of that: followers put all their trust in the cult leader, who will ensure that a “paradise on earth” would come, or something to that effect. They only need to follow his/her instructions (and often endure his/her abuse), and they will be free from all the pain and suffering in this “heaven on earth”, which they’re awaiting.
That’s an example of completely giving up one’s own agency and putting one’s trust in someone else, someone supposedly superior and more “worthy” – someone who has a “direct connection” to God.
I guess something similar happens in other types of cults too (other than religious or spiritual): the followers have put their complete trust in one person (who might be a conman), and are willing to disregard certain abuses and red flags in their behavior, because this person is “the chosen one”, they will bring a better future, so they are forgiven everything.
Fromm warned that passive hope, especially when cloaked in faith, can become fertile ground for authoritarianism. The leader becomes the embodiment of “active hope,” even if their actions are coercive or destructive. The more people mistake waiting for hoping (pretending its action), the more they surrender their autonomy to those who claim to act on their behalf. In this way, the erosion of true hope becomes a gateway to political and psychological submission.
Yes, the more the people put their faith in leaders, while giving up (or never developing) their own agency and feeling helpless to change their lives – the more chance there is for authoritarian regimes to develop.
So I think hope and agency are related to each other: hope devoid of personal agency could probably be called passive hope, the one that leads to submission.
The antidote would be, as you say, courageous engagement with the future: trust in oneself, trust in the ability to change our life for the better, rather than feeling helpless and awaiting an external savior.
Fromm argued that genuine hope is not a passive waiting for salvation, but an active, courageous engagement with the future. It is rooted in agency, responsibility, and the moral will to shape what comes next.
Yes, definitely! Personal agency, responsibility for our own life (to change what we can change – because we can’t change everything we don’t like). And then hope that we’ll have luck in our endeavors, that as we move towards our goal, the “stars” will be on our side, that good fortune will smile on us… hope and faith in something beyond ourselves. Because sometimes we need more than just ourselves – we need luck, and that’s something we can hope for.
But we hope as we work towards our goal, as we take action… not that someone would take that action instead of us.
If someone told me a 10+ years ago that my hope was unskillful and passive as Fromm suggests I would have rejected the notion. Back then, hope felt active to me. Over time, I’ve learned what T.S. Eliot meant by “wait without hope, for hope would be hope of the wrong thing.”
Today I think I’m ready to reclaim hope, disentangling it from passive faith and restore its active essences… hope as a verb, not a feeling.
Good for you, Peter! Life without hope is a grim one, but we need the right kind of hope. It’s great that you’ve realized what true hope means and that you’re ready to live it. 🙏
If you’d like to share more about your process, or any aspect of hope vs passivity, I’d love to hear it…
Tee
ParticipantHola SereneWolf,
How’s that battle going? Feeling any better?
It fluctuates… I feel better emotionally when my physical pain is better. I still find it hard not to focus on the physical pain and on looking for ways to help myself. I think it’s normal… but I also know there’s this other part of my life, where I’m stalling, which could give me more joy (hopefully) – if I’d manage to get it started. Anyway, it’s still a battle…
Yeah, and now he’s doing better, but even though he can, he doesn’t do much physical activity to recover faster. He’s just on the phone all day, which is irritating. Watching short content also has a bad effect on the brain… but no, he won’t understand.
I’m glad your father is feeling better. It seems you’re upset about him not doing some physical exercises to help with his recovery. Do you express this frustration to him, do you quarrel with him? Or you can let it go?
Thanks for your encouraging words! But because it was taking a toll on my mental health, I went to Vipassana Meditation Centres (they’re all over the world) and omg, what an actually serene experience. I went there for a 10-day course — no electronics, no talking. You have to take noble silence there. You just meditate for 8–10 hours every single day, with a one-hour discourse in the evening. So good and so eye-opening.
They put a lot of weight on equanimity, and it’s based on Buddha’s way of meditation. I think you should check it out. It definitely helped me a lot with many things. My attention span is better, and for the last few days, I’ve been applying for a lot of suitable roles. Let’s see.
Wow, 10 days in silence, meditation, no distractions from the outside world… just you and your thoughts, and one-hour lecture in the evening. That must be challenging!
But I’m glad it helped you. It seems you’ve got a new motivation to apply for jobs and you’re feeling more focused. Yeah, I can imagine if you spend 10 days mostly meditating, with no distractions, your brain is really focused and sharp. Good for you, SereneWolf! I hope you get a job you like ASAP 🙏
Nope. Just the house and food expenses. And when there’s some saving, they spend it on some big thing, like a vehicle or renovation and stuff. So, although from the start, I knew that I’d have to handle and take care of the family financially.
Yeah, it doesn’t seem very responsible to me. Funny how your father was strict, scolding and perfectionist with you (if I remember well), but he himself wasn’t too smart or responsible when it comes to important financial decisions. He wasn’t really a good role model, if you ask me… But it seems he was counting on being supported by his children (you primarily) in his old age, and so I guess he didn’t feel that his behavior was irresponsible.
Yes, it’s not their fault. It’s generally the culture here. So yeah, it’s their old wiring. And not only that, but it makes me think — their love, is it genuine? Or is it because I’m fulfilling their expectations? Maybe that’s why I have trust issues in relationships, like, why would you love me without a reason? It’s hard to believe in selfless love.
Yes, it’s hard… there are so many expectations on adult children in India, starting from arranged marriages, not marrying into a certain caste, finishing a respectable university, getting a suitable job, earning a decent income, so you can finance their upkeep when they’re old… it’s incredible how many expectations there are!
And no wonder the child doesn’t feel loved for who they are, but for how they perform… parental love in India seems very conditional, unfortunately.
But that’s a distortion, it’s not true love. People shouldn’t have children to serve a certain function, but to love them and care for them. It’s unfortunate if the entire culture sees children as a source of pride (but selfish, ego pride, like “my child has a better job than yours”), and also a source of income and sustenance in old age. It’s quite utilitarian.
You’d need to learn what true parental love is. It’s unconditional. Even if you don’t perform perfectly, the parent loves you. They never withdraw their love, even though they set boundaries on unwanted behavior.
But you – your individuality, your person – is cherished. You’re seen as precious, as special, and they’re proud of you for who you are, not what function you fulfill for them.
But of course, that’s the ideal. That’s what a good parent gives the child. There are many inadequate parents all around the word, but perhaps in some cultures more so than in others.
So I hear you, SereneWolf. You’re asking what to work on in therapy:
Sometimes I just feel so overwhelmed I don’t even know where to start. Especially when it comes to self image I don’t know how to work on it properly.
That reminds me.. since you know my patterns well (honestly more than I do), can you tell me what exact points I should raise with the therapist?I think conditional love is one major problem: feeling worthy of love only if you have a job and are bringing in the money. You said you don’t even want to date while you don’t have a job, because you don’t feel good enough. So the feeling of not being good enough is a major one. And it’s been engraved into you both by your parents, grandparents and also the culture around you. That’s something to work on.
And the therapist would need to have an understanding of unconditional love and what true self-worth means. Because if they grew up in the same culture and don’t see a problem with this type of parenting and what it does to children, then they probably won’t be able to help you. It needs to be someone who “transcended” that culture and can support you in reclaiming your true worth and self-esteem.
So the goal would be to learn to love yourself for who you are, not what you can provide for others. Of course, you’re a caring person and you don’t have a problem with giving – but when you’re only loved when you give, when you perform, when you fulfill other people’s expectations – that’s very crushing for the soul. And it kills self-esteem. So you’d need to heal that.
I hope you find a good therapist… BTW what was the problem with the previous two? You said they were very generic…
In the meanwhile, if you want to talk, I’m here… Take care!
Tee
ParticipantDear Jana,
I hope you’re having a great time on your offline adventure 😊 deep in nature, away from the distractions of the outside world ❤️
Thank you for sharing the inner child exercises, as well as your own experience of being in touch with and nourishing your inner child. It’s lovely to read that you love and cherish yourself, and can smile to your reflection in the mirror, after many years of being self-conscious about your looks.
And it’s wonderful to read about your wandering in nature, being curious about trees, animals and insects, and looking at the world with child-like curiosity. I can almost feel your joy as you’re wandering through nature, soaking in all of its beauty and wonders ☀️ ❤️
The truth is, I take it in stride and now I remember the nice things from my childhood much more often.
That’s a good, balanced approach: to focus on the present moment, as well as on the positive memories from your childhood, while not suppressing the negative ones. You’ve done a lot of healing on those negative memories, and now you have the capacity to focus on what’s good and positive.
Another helpful thing is that your parents are much more aware now, so you can build a different relationship with them now from what you had in the past.
Reading about your childhood, I gather that your parents at that time weren’t very supportive and that you didn’t really feel like confiding in them regarding bullying:
I had really nice grandmothers. They were very supportive. It’s a shame they weren’t as good mothers as grandmothers. My parents didn’t have the easiest relationships with their mothers either. I felt that very early on, and maybe it also helped me look at our relationship a little more objectively. Where were my parents supposed to learn to be more emotionally accessible, when their own mothers were quite strict with them?
They knew about my social phobia, but I am not sure if I told them that I was bullied. I was too shy to speak about it.
It’s lucky though that your grandmothers were more emotionally accessible, and that even though they weren’t necessarily good mothers to their children, they were more supportive as grandmothers. I know of such phenomenon, where the person as a grandmother is more easy-going and has more patience (and perhaps empathy) for their grandchild than she had with her own children.
I imagine the teachers failed to inform your parents about the bullying that you were suffering? It seems like a very big omission on their part – specially if they were aware of what was going on?
Good that you still had people who protected you, such as your older brother and his friends. And also older children not from your school, who taught you how to defend yourself and which places not to go alone.
But I can imagine it was nevertheless a very lonely experience, where you felt quite helpless 🙁 It seems that the adults failed you in this case, both your parents and teachers. But it’s good that you’ve managed to heal and are still healing, slowly but surely ❤️
And that now, you’re living in very different circumstances, surrounded by people who love and cherish you. And that even your parents treat you differently, and have realized the mistakes they’ve made as young parents. It’s nice to be surrounded by people who truly love you and care about your well-being – that helps your healing process even further. ❤️
But what about you? How are you doing these days? Do I understand correctly that your mother had/has narcissistic personality disorder?
Thanks, I’m doing fine emotionally. My mother is a pretty tough case, and I’m starting to think that she might have some covert narcissistic traits – in that she is stubborn in seeing herself as the victim and blaming others for her problems. She has a very hard time admitting that she made any parenting mistakes, so yeah… it’s hard to talk openly and honestly.
But the good thing is that I don’t expect her to give me her approval and validation anymore. Also, I’ve given up trying to cheer her up and make her feel less sad. Because she almost likes to feel sad, she likes to focus on the negative. It’s an internal state, which only she has the power to change, if she chooses to.
So I’ve given up on trying to make her happy. Which was a big and important part of my healing…
Tee
ParticipantHi Peter,
I’ve often wondered why wisdom traditions, for all their depth and beauty, don’t seem to catalyze the kind of societal transformation they point toward. I’ve witnessed individual awakening, but once form becomes institution, something seems to stall. The flow slows. The tenderness hardens.
Ah, societal change is a big and complex topic. Something that occupies me, and saddens me, is that in the 21st century, we’re at the brink of WW3, or at least a war on the European continent.
We could speculate about the reasons, but I don’t think it’s for the lack of personal development and self-awareness in the Western world, but for other reasons. Perhaps being naive, appeasing the bully rather than holding them accountable, and becoming even more dependent on the bully economically, rather than seeking to reduce dependence. Perhaps that’s all a consequence of wishful thinking and fear (on behalf of European leaders), rather than thinking straight and being aligned with one’s true self-interest. Perhaps it reflects a certain passivity, both in thought (internal) and action (external).
Anyway, that’s just something that occupies and worries me, which I think is related to societal progress. But there are many more issues, which you’ve touched upon, where indeed the question could be asked why it sometimes seems that we go backwards, while we should be going forward and advancing as a society, as a civilization.
We live in a culture that celebrates transformation, makeovers, breakthroughs, revolutions… a world that privileges what can be seen, counted, and proven. Action, in this frame, means movement.
Inner work, by contrast, is subjective. It happens in silence, in solitude, in the messy terrain of thought and feeling. It lacks the markers of “doing something” that our culture recognizes: speed, noise, output. So we label it passive. We call reflection “navel-gazing,” restraint “weakness,” and emotional labor “soft.”
The way I see it, a part of the problem is that those who are loud and aggressive are the center of attention (which is largely exacerbated by social media), while those who are silent and contemplative, those who self-reflect and do the inner work, do not get the necessary attention.
People like entertainment, they like drama, they like individuals who stir strong emotions in them (or who give them excuse to vent their strong emotions such as anger onto others without being called out for it). Someone who is contemplative and self-reflective isn’t necessarily a good entertainer.
But more importantly, many people still don’t want to self-reflect, but would rather blame others for their problems. So the silent, contemplative, “navel-gazing” person may have audience (if they start a youtube channel haha 🙂 ), but it will be probably much less than some not so self-aware (but emotions-stirring and captivating) influencer.
We live in a culture that celebrates transformation, makeovers, breakthroughs, revolutions… a world that privileges what can be seen, counted, and proven. Action, in this frame, means movement.
If transformation is real and has come from within – and then it manifests in external action or outer success – it’s not a bad thing. There’s a funny meme that goes something like “Overnight success is a real thing. It just takes 5-10 years of hard work.” 🙂 But in all seriousness, I welcome that type of “overnight” success – behind which are years of hard work.
But there’s another type of action too, which is not aligned with our true self, but is let’s say to accomplish a goal that someone else wants for us, to meet someone else’s expectations. Thomas Merton said: “We may spend our whole life climbing the ladder of success, only to find when we get to the top that our ladder is leaning against the wrong wall.”
If our action is driven exclusively by ego desires, e.g. fame or riches or some other “earthly” goals, it won’t be beneficial either to us or those around us in the long-run.
My thought is that to truly understand action and passivity, we must integrate both objective and subjective perspectives. We must learn to see the invisible, to recognize that stillness can be strength and motion can be avoidance.
Definitely. Motion/action can be an attempt to alleviate the pain that can only be alleviated by self-reflection and inner work. If we don’t want to face that pain, we might engage in actions that numb it (all kinds of addictions and distractions), or we might punish and attack those who trigger that pain and bring it to surface.
I believe that actions that stem from avoiding pain – when that pain would need to be addressed instead – are not balanced, beneficial actions.
In doing so, we confront our biases about what counts as passive and what counts as active. And perhaps then, we begin to discern how those biases have shaped the way we hope, what we expect from change, and where we place our trust.
Can you elaborate on how you see our biases regarding action and passivity affect the way we hope and trust?
Erick Fromm suggested that unskillful hope is a attempt to flee from choice, from responsibility, from the anxiety of being, and in our flight, we embrace submission, conformity, and destructiveness. In Escape from Freedom, he named such hope as fear masquerading as safety, the seduction of authoritarianism…
This is a very rich thought… I wonder if you’d expand on it a little?
Tee
ParticipantHi Peter,
Not quite in the way you speculate: My comment on expanding on Bruce Lee quote was me talking to myself wondering how better to communicate what I see as a major stumbling block for integrating the teaching of the various wisdom traditions. Mistaking for action what is really passivity and vice versa.
Oh I see. The notion of activity vs. passivity is something that occupies you, and you believe that sometimes what is seen as action is actually passivity (Mistaking for action what is really passivity and vice versa). Would you expand on that? Can you give an example of an action which is actually passivity?
Erick Fromm suggested that unskillful hope is a attempt to flee from choice, from responsibility, from the anxiety of being, and in our flight, we embrace submission, conformity, and destructiveness.
Unfortunately, I’m not familiar with Fromm’s writings and his notion of hope… Do you mean that people often hope that someone outside of them would change their lives for the better – an external savior (even a political figure)? Whereas true change lies within us. True change comes from within, not from without. Is that what you had in mind?
Tee
ParticipantDear Milda,
I never believed my interpretations, because I did not have even one person to support me and say that Milda, such parent behavior is not ok and they are actually manipulating you and you behave the way they want only, without authenticity.
That’s very unfortunate, Milda. Does it mean that to this day, there is no one in your extended family (grandparents, other relatives), who actually sees what is going on and supports you?
How about your therapist? Do they support you? Because not every therapist knows what it means to be a victim of narcissistic abuse (which you most probably were/are). Do you feel supported in your therapy sessions at least?
The problem with narcissistic people is that they behave very differently in public (even with other family members, who don’t live with them) than in private. They may appear like the most loving parents, or the most loving and caring people to the outside world, while only those who live with them know what kind of people they really are.
So there is an element of deception there, where the victim is not believed by others, because the narcissistic person tends to pretend in front of other people, and so it’s hard for those people to believe the victim.
Have you experienced something like that: that some people, including those in your extended family, don’t really believe that your parents are so bad, because they appear very differently to the outside world?
I think the biggest change internally started to happen, because by reading book “Codependent no more” interpretations of my family and this dysfunction started to raise inside of me and I started to slowly believe them for the first time in my life. My interpretations and gut feeling was silenced by me, silenced by scared, small me, because I had to survive and listening to those interpretations would not help me survive, so I silenced them.
Yes, for the child the attachment to the parent or primary caretaker is a matter of survival. The child needs to stay attached, and for that, the child needs to believe that the parent is good and means well. As a result, the child concludes that they are bad, and that they need to change so that the parent would finally give them the love and care they need to survive.
Another reason why we believe our parents’ interpretations is simply that the child’s mind is like a sponge, it’s very “programmable”. We build our self-image in the relationship with our parents. So if they treat us like we’re unlovable and undeserving – we’ll start believing that about ourselves. And if certain behaviors make them pleased, and they give us “love” and approval (albeit conditional), we’ll try to do more of those behaviors, even if it’s at our own expense.
In other words, we need to believe our parents’ view of us, in order to try to have our needs met: both physical and emotional. Getting validation and approval from our parents is an important emotional need, and so we’ll do anything to get that need met.
If our parents or caretakers were the kind of people who were never pleased with us, or were only pleased when we did exactly as they told us – we’ll grow up into adults with little to no self-esteem, believing that we are impossible to love, or undeserving of love. And that’s what I believed happened to you, Milda (it happened to me too).
The bloody work now is to give a voice for those interpretations, they still scare me a lot, I still do not know what to do with them…
Those interpretations come from your child self, i.e. your inner child. The task now would be to expand your awareness and your sense of self to also include other voices, such as your adult self, who sees things more objectively and knows that you’re not such a bad person as your parents (and your inner critic) claim you are.
I believe the best way to start expanding your sense of self is to develop the so-called observer self: e.g. when you start feeling guilty about not meeting your parents’ demands, to pause and notice: “this is me feeling guilty for not tending to my parents’ needs, but tending to my own needs instead. I have the right to tend to my needs. I am not a bad person for tending to my needs.”
You said:
Throw away old dictionary and start a new one about what is a good daughter, a bad one, what is a good mother, a bad one. This will be my homework. I think this exercise would help me in a road of unconditional love to myself.
Yes, you can do affirmations where you tell yourself what a good daughter and a good mother really means, to counter the false definitions and imprints you’ve received from your parents. That too can be a part of the objective, observer self, who is affirming the truth. This can help you not feel overwhelmed by guilt and fear whenever you don’t give in to your parents’ demands and expectations.
Anyway, the goal would be to develop this objective and compassionate observer self, which can change our inner dialogue and counteract the harsh voice of our inner critic.
❤️
Tee
ParticipantHi Jana,
I’ll be traveling for the next few days and probably won’t be able to reply before I get back.
Till then, take care, and see you later! 😊 ❤️
Tee
ParticipantDear Milda,
you’re welcome! ❤️
Do you think that my first step has to be thinking about me as a child and feeling grateful for myself? For that little girl, that did her best but still streats herself as a bad daughter, family member, as a bad person at deepest.
Yes, absolutely. I myself am very familiar with the crushing voice of the inner critic, who is bombarding us with criticism, telling us that we’re bad, flawed, inadequate, or selfish, uncaring, heartless, etc – if we don’t do what our parents expect us to do.
There was a time when the inner critic was the dominant voice in my head, and my internal dialogue consisted of my inner critic berating me. I really believed that I was a horrible person, full of flaws, a freak, unlovable, unworthy, etc.
I believed that I deserved that criticism, since I exhibited some problematic behavior (I was suffering from an eating disorder), so I felt that my self-criticism and even self-loathing were justified.
It wasn’t until I’ve learned about the concept of the inner child – the pure, innocent and totally lovable part of us – that I could start loving myself. Because I felt that even if the adult me, the addict me, might not deserve love (which was actually false, but this was my reasoning at the time), the child me definitely deserves it.
And so I could start appreciating that pure, innocent, precious part of me, which was constantly criticized and berated by my mother, who didn’t get love, warmth and gentleness, but rejection. That little girl certainly didn’t deserve such treatment, because I was a good child, a good pupil, I was behaving well, I didn’t make any trouble for my parents… so I knew it wasn’t fair, I knew it wasn’t my fault…
And this is how I started loving myself. This is how I developed another voice in my head: the voice of a loving, compassionate parent – something I never had while growing up.
I think that’s the first step in healing: to connect with that compassionate voice within. So there isn’t only the inner critic in our conscious awareness, but also the inner “parent”. We need to become a good, loving parent to ourselves. And that’s how we can resist the onslaught of the inner critic and not slide back into guilt, self-loathing and repeating the old patterns…
❤️
Tee
ParticipantDear Milda,
the first point that you addressed (out of three) is something that I wrote, so I’m going to reply to that one 😊
(1) We need to start telling ourselves that we’re a good person, worthy of love and respect – even if we refuse the role of the emotional caretaker and the “family empath”, which they’ve imposed on us.- you indicated very accurately my struggle. Deep down I feel the worst daughter, because I decided to step away from parents and do not communicate with them/visit them for a while. I feel the worst that I do not listen to their problems, issues and do not soothe them. I feel the worst, because I stopped keeping them the centre of MY life and started TO BE the center of MY life. Even though such decision is helping me to stay more at peace and calm, at the same time it is burning at low heat anxiety inside of me and I do not feel at peace at all. I feel as if I murdered somebody, but took very good care of hiding the body and evidence, so I try to convince myself that all is peace now, but deep down- it actually isn’t. I would really appreciate your thoughts on that feeling. How can I navigate through it in a healthy way. This is a very complicated state of mind, state of being actually.
I hear you, Milda. I think the problem is that you’ve set external boundaries (no contact, no visits) without setting the internal boundaries first.
I think that even if you seemingly (based on your outer actions, or lack thereof) don’t have your family in the center of attention, emotionally, you still do. They’re still the center of your thoughts, because now, you’re worried about what they will think of you, what they’ll say, you’re afraid of their judgment, and you fear that you might indeed be a bad daughter for leaving them “stranded” like that.
Even though such decision is helping me to stay more at peace and calm, at the same time it is burning at low heat anxiety inside of me and I do not feel at peace at all. I feel as if I murdered somebody, but took very good care of hiding the body and evidence, so I try to convince myself that all is peace now, but deep down- it actually isn’t.
Dear Milda, it’s completely normal that you don’t have peace – when you still believe their false narrative. You’re still operating on their narrative, while trying to distance yourself from them. And of course, this causes you to feel very guilty. So guilty as if you’ve murdered someone.
That’s the guilt that you’ve been facing your entire life if you dared not to put your family in the center of your life.
You said that whenever you tried to say No, you were shamed and guilt-tripped. This now is that same guilt – but now magnified, since now you’ve set such a radical boundary – something you’ve never dared before.
I would really appreciate your thoughts on that feeling. How can I navigate through it in a healthy way. This is a very complicated state of mind, state of being actually.
I know it is, Milda. It’s hard because your inner critic (which is the internalized voices of your parents) is super strong and relentless at the moment. This is what you’re hearing in your mind right now.
To counter balance that harsh, critical voice, you’d need to find another voice inside of your mind, Milda. The voice of self-compassion.
Can you find a voice of compassion for the little girl who received so little love and understanding from their parents, and were demanded to give all of herself? And even that was never enough…
Can you feel compassion for the little girl that was trying so hard, giving her heart and soul, wanting to help her parents, to make her mother finally happy… but never succeeded?
Can you feel compassion for the precious, beautiful, most loving, helpful, generous, sweet little girl, who gave her all to the people she loved most: her parents?
I hope you can, dear Milda… because you were that girl. And she is still inside of you. And she is you.
She deserves love, just as you do. She is precious, lovable and worthy, and that’s the truth. Please let her bathe in that truth. Let her bathe in that love, that she so fully and utterly deserve 💖
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