Dear Anita,

I’m happy that you’re slowly realizing that your mother was a different person that what you’ve thought her to be.

And yes, covert narcissism is very tricky because the person seems humble and generous, as you said, when in fact that’s all a pretense, that’s all PR to maintain a certain public image.

And it’s the covert type of extreme self centeredness aka narcissism that’s confusing (presenting herself as humble, shy..) and in so being, more harmful perhaps than the overt type.

Yes, I agree with you that it’s actually more toxic than overt narcissism because the person appears as if having low self-esteem, as if they were insecure, self-deprecating and needing help and reassurance. But then it turns out that if you want to help them, they actually reject it or dismiss it, and keep playing the victim.

And with that, they manipulate and guilt-trip the people around them (those who love them and want them to be happy). And of course, the greatest victims are their children, because they truly want to see their parents happy, which with covert narcissists is mission impossible. 🙁

I just asked Copilot: “are there parents who never find pleasure in their child’s pain?”-

Notice the question, Tee. I really don’t know the answer in regard to all or most parents.

Yeah, that’s pretty extraordinary. But you’ve explained how it got to that point: you needed to normalize your mother’s abuse, so to make it more bearable, so that you would be able to stay bonded to her (which was your survival need).

Lots of times children do it also because they don’t have a different reference point, they only know their own parents and their own family. They don’t know it’s not normal if the parent hits them or yells at them all the time…. they don’t know that abuse isn’t normal. And they also don’t know that they didn’t deserve it…

It’s a pity you couldn’t speak to your sister about it, but it’s also true that she was 6 years younger, so you wouldn’t even have been able to confide in her for quite a long time (because she was simply too small to understand), even if you wanted to. So you were in it alone, thinking it was normal 😢

Her Act confused me for the longest time. Now I see it as an Act. And the real person.. nothing like the act.

Her act- not at all threatening. Looked so normal and friendly. She looked and sounded like the safest person in the world. When she dropped the act, she was threatening, dangerous- threatening suicide or homicide, or grave injury or just shooting the most shaming words as in out of a cannon.

So, that has been my mother.

Now I know. I can see through the Act.

The love I had for her was the love for an Act.

You describe it very well: her “kind and loving” side was an act, and who you loved was an act. That wasn’t her true self, but her fake persona.

Her “love and kindness” quickly disappeared when the guests left – that’s when she returned to her normal, abusive self, in which there was no concern for you and your needs: it was all about her and her needs. Me, me, me, as you said…. which is a typical narcissistic feature.

I’m glad that you’re seeing it so clearly now, Anita, although it was somewhat of a rude awakening, realizing some pretty painful things about your mother. But that’s what’s necessary for our healing: we cannot heal while not knowing the truth, or knowing the truth half way. We need to know it all, so we can process it learn from it…

You’re doing a great job, Anita, I’m impressed by your realizations and connecting the dots very quickly! ❤️❤️

I myself am not feeling my best, due to some health problems again, but I’d prefer not to talk about it at the moment. It’s already grotesque a little, to have those health problems popping up out of nowhere all the time, but it is what it is… I remain optimistic, taking one day at a time 🙏

Have a nice Saturday, Anita!

❤️ 🫶 ❤️

Dear Anita,

sorry, I’m in a bit of a rush today, not very focused. But I’d like to say that I hear you and understand that you might be feeling befuddled by these newest realizations: that you didn’t see something that you say was pretty obvious (your mother wearing a wig), or that you’ve only now realized that what you saw that early morning wasn’t a dream, but you really saw your mother’s bald head.

But your mother told you it was just a bad dream, and so you didn’t question it further. You accepted her words. I think the key to understand this is what you wrote here:

I believed her because there was nothing I needed more than to believe her.

That’s true. You needed to believe her, because this is what allowed you to stay attached to her, which is what we as children need to survive. We need to stay attached to our parents, and that includes believing that our parents are good people and that they have our best interests in mind.

So, believing our parents, trusting their intentions, blaming ourselves rather than them if they mistreat us… that’s all how we keep the hope that our parents are good people and that we’re safe with them.

In addition, abusive parents (specially narcissistic parents) regularly gaslight us and tell us various lies (that they’re the best parents, that they only want what’s best for us, that we’re bad, ungrateful and unworthy, but that they love us anyway, etc etc). Similar lies that your mother told you… And they’re really good at “selling” their narrative.

So I think it’s kind of a 2-fold action: we want to believe them, because we need it for our survival, and they’re really good at portraying themselves as good and us as bad. They’re very convincing. And I think that as a result, we get easily brainwashed: we are receptive to it, and they are master gaslighters.

And then we start gaslighting ourselves too, telling ourselves that our parent is a good parent, that things aren’t as bad, that they mean well… and I think that as a part of that self-gaslighting, we might not even see or perceive certain things that would be obvious to an outside observer.

It’s like we don’t want to see those things, and so we block them from our conscious awareness. I suppose that’s what happened to you, and why you never put 2 and 2 together regarding your mother wearing a wig. She told you it wasn’t real, and you believed her, because you wanted to believe her: not only about the wig, but about everything else. Because you needed to believe her, because that was key for your survival.

At least that’s how I explain it to myself… what are your thoughts on this?

HOW MANY LIES..???

The lies are unfortunately pervasive: almost everything she told you (or conditioned you to believe) about yourself and other people isn’t true. Also, a lot of what she told you about herself – how good and loving mother she is – is also not true.

But the worst lies are those that we’ve accepted about ourselves: about our worth and how worthy of love we are. And it’s good to hear that your sense of self-worth is growing by the day:

I am experiencing a significant decline in shame.. and a felt increase in self-worth these very days

I’m really happy about that, Anita ❤️ It’s a great sign, and indicates that her lies are having less and less impact on you! 🤞

🙏 ❤️ 🫶 ❤️

Hi Alessa,

sure, it’s okay to move the conversation here, since yeah, it’s not so much about conflict any more 😊

My knee is marginally better now, maybe because I’m more diligent in strengthening my muscles, but as soon as there is any strain on it, such as walking up a few flights of stairs, it gets worse. But anyway, I’ve still got a few options that I’m going to try to achieve a bit more stable improvement, so that’s my plan 🙂

Good to hear that your son is showing interest in the Paw Patrol potty. Are you hoping that he might not even need a diaper in the nursery, so no need for diaper change? (sorry if I sound daft – I don’t know how long it takes to train a little one to go potty?)

I know it will be healthy for him to learn to trust others. He has been lucky so far, the vast majority of people have been kind to him.

Yes, I’m sure it will be good for him to socialize with other kids. And since he’s over 2 years old now (if I’ve got that right?), it’s okay for him to start the occasional “separation” from you, since around 2 begins the so-called individuation period. The child likes to explore their surroundings and then come back to the parent. Being away from you for a few hours seems like a perfect recipe for that. Plus, it gives you an opportunity to study for your exams 😊

Hmm well it’s complicated. I’ve always had a tendency for anxiety. I think a lot of the time, I have unrealistic expectations. I guess because I have needs, just like anyone else. I seek reassurance and empathy from people who might not be emotionally equipped to handle that in the moment.

Ah well, uncertainty is an issue for me. It’s common with autism. So much of life is uncertain.

Right, it’s good that you know where your anxiety is mostly coming from: unrealistic expectations (towards certain people) and a general uncertainty about life.

I guess because I have needs, just like anyone else.

I’d just like to confirm: yes, your needs are legitimate. It’s just that you might be looking to meet them by the kind of people who don’t have the emotional capacity for that, or don’t always have that capacity. So I guess that’s something to take into account, even if it may be painful…

As for general anxiety due to life being uncertain, yeah, I’m familiar with that. I guess it’s not necessarily just due to autism, but can be a consequence of complex PTSD. We haven’t learned safety, haven’t been brought up with the sense that we’re safe, because well… our mothers were unsafe. So that sense of a “safe harbor” is missing.

We now need to give it to ourselves, and it’s not always easy. It’s definitely not easy for me. But there are somatic techniques to deal with it, such as imagining a safe place, giving ourselves a hug, feeling safe in the here-and-now, being grounded and breathing deeply and slowly. In general, techniques to calm down our hyper-vigilant nervous system.. because that’s the basis for a general feeling of safety, I guess.

Thanks, I like programming. It’s really fun for me, my brain works in that straightforward way.

That’s great that you’ve found a field you like and feel enthusiastic about 👍 Wishing you well on your exams! 🤞 And also that it all fits nicely with the nursery, for a maximum win-win 😊

❤️❤️

Dear Anita,

I am getting close to no longer discussing her. I have been gathering, thanks to your input, Tee, a 3-D understanding of her, the most powerful person in my life, the mother I was born to, or through.

You (and we) don’t need to stop discussing her. Discussing her helped you to understand what happened to you, and why she couldn’t really give you love – love that you have been longing for such a long time. A love that you as a child (and beyond) absolutely needed and deserved. You said it so beautifully:

I waited for her to.. love me like a mother is supposed to love her daughter. I say “supposed”- not something I read, something I instinctually needed: a place to rest. A place to rest in a mother.

Each child has that need, that’s how our brains (and our hearts) are wired. But too many parents aren’t able to provide that safety (both physical and emotional) to their children. Too many parents are wounded children themselves, who end up hurting their children, perpetuating generational trauma. As you said:

Just pass on the abuse, and you’d feel better, for a little while, business as usual.

Yes, pass on the abuse, briefly feel relief from the pain… even if it’s by hurting those who love you and depend on you the most.

Heart-breaking 😢

Unfortunately, parents who commit those acts may rationalize it and may not think it’s a big deal, as you’ve said here:

Nothing wrong in saying or doing anything to “A Nobody”, to “A Nothing”, to “A big Zero”, is there??? If it’s a Nobody then..

As to the sexual abuse.. why, that’s a Nothing when done to a Nothing/ a Nobody.

A child being a sexual object for a parent: a father (more publicity about that happening, more overtly), or a mother (less publicity, more covert, perhaps)- Think of an adult parent lonely, deprived, desiring something sexual.. and there’s no one there but the child.. the only thing there.. What do you do with the desire?

Please don’t get me wrong: I know how WRONG it is to sexually abuse a child. Majorly Wrong.

But to the sexually abusing “parent”.. It’s no big deal.

But I don’t care if it’s not a big deal for them: it is a big deal, a HUGE deal, for their victims. For their innocent children who seek a safe place, and get a dungeon with dragons.

I’m not sure if I’m hearing some bitterness in your words, a part of you almost wanting to minimize your pain because for your mother, abusing you wasn’t a big deal?

If so, please know that abusing you WAS a big deal, and not only from your perspective as a victim, but also from every normal person’s perspective. Childhood abuse, especially childhood sexual abuse, is a big deal for every sane person with a grain of empathy. It’s not something that people just shrug their shoulders to, as in “it happens”. No. Because even if it happens, it’s horribly destructive and it should never happen.

How to save the many thousands of children right now, this very Mon night, being the subjects of abuse, verbal, physical, sexual? WHAT CAN I DO???

I’ve looked up childhood sexual abuse and came across some old videos of The Oprah Show, where she hosted survivors of childhood sexual abuse, including incest. And then I dag deeper, and realized that Oprah herself was abused as a child, both physically and sexually, which was one of the reasons why she started the Oprah Show: to talk about difficult human destinies and how to recover. And it seems that she contributed to passing a bill in 1993, colloquially called the Oprah bill:

“Oprah bill” refers to the National Child Protection Act of 1993, which was informally named after Oprah Winfrey due to her instrumental role in advocating for its passage. The bill created a national database of convicted child abusers and was signed into law by President Bill Clinton in 1993.

I don’t know much about this field, but it seems there is already a lot of help out there, there are numerous websites and initiatives to prevent child abuse. And I guess there are educational programs at schools (though I guess not implemented everywhere) about what constitutes appropriate touch, etc. So I guess awareness about it is greater than before.

But I guess it’s still happening a lot, and it’s very insidious because it’s happening behind closed doors. And children (the victims) often don’t even have the awareness that what’s happening is wrong. And neighbors are still very unwilling to get involved.

In one of Oprah’s videos, a victim (a man who was abused as a child, but has since recovered) said that even though the neighbors (and teachers!) saw that he was dirty and smelly, nobody said anything. People knew that his mother was “crazy”, but no one wanted to get involved.

This didn’t happen now, it’s an old story, but still, it shows how difficult these things are, and how “institutions” can really mess up, because even his teachers didn’t notice, or chose not to notice, that he was neglected (and there were obvious, visible signs of neglect).

Anyway, that’s a complex topic, but I think what’s important for you personally is that you’re now talking about it and understanding what happened to you, and that your mother wasn’t able to give you love.

You’ve also realized that none of that was your fault – that the abuse wasn’t your fault – and you found compassion for that little girl who only wanted to be loved and instead received the antithesis of it.

I think that’s truly the key in your healing. Understanding her reasons and what was in her mind is less important, although it can be important in the sense of understanding that she too was wounded. Yet, as you say, she chose to perpetuate the abuse, unlike her brother, who sought to stop it:

The 3-D understanding of her: a good little girl trapped in the evil she experienced AND perpetuated.

She went through a lot, and I can see that even her permanent hair loss as a child or adolescent may have contributed to her self-loathing and cutting her head off in photos. Perhaps she was bullied and humiliated due to her hair loss, which was an additional trauma.

All of that (baldness, beatings, bullying, her father abandoning her to be with other women, which led to her becoming an orphan, etc)… might have led to an intense anger, hatred and a sense of powerlessness. And then the need to regain that power by subduing and controlling her own children. And getting a sense of self-worth by mercilessly shaming and humiliating her children.

Plus there was sexual abuse, which we can speculate about the reasons why it happened (because it doesn’t necessarily have to be that she was molested herself). Nevertheless it happened, and perhaps that was the most insidious kind of abuse, because it wasn’t so overt, and yet it was boundary violation and trust violation. And it caused you to feel huge shame about yourself.

All this is coming to light now, you’re realizing it, and I hope it is liberating (inasmuch it is painful too), and will gradually lead to healing. 🙏 ❤️

So I think we can keep talking about it, if it’s helpful to you. I think it’s less important to understand what was in her mind and what her motives were (although we can speculate about it). What’s most important is that you’ve realized that it was abuse and that you started healing from it. And I hope you will continue to heal. And I’m glad I can help you in that process ❤️

Also, as Alessa said:

I feel like the person you have been waiting for all along is yourself. You have all of the qualities you wish for in a mother. You can give that love to yourself. That is the secret of how to feel whole and recover from the abuse of a failed parent.

Yes! You’re the one you’ve been waiting for! I’ve heard that phrase before, and I’ve looked it up now: it’s the title of a book by Richard Schwartz (the creator of the Internal Family Systems therapy, which I respect a lot). But anyway, that’s the big wisdom and the big truth of healing ❤️

🙏 ❤️ 🫶 ❤️ 🙏

Dear Anita,

(Copilot): “Revenge is the act of inflicting harm or punishment on someone in response to a perceived wrong, often driven by a desire for retribution or to ‘get even.’”.

It occurred to me that the way she was bathing you (scrubbing your head to the point of pain, as well as inappropriately touching you) might also have been a form of revenge and punishment for perceived (or real) humiliation that she’d experienced as a child.

It could be that she felt humiliated – not necessarily by her father abandoning her, but perhaps by what happened in the orphanage (has she shared anything about that?), or by severe beatings at the hand of her oldest sister. She might have felt not only helpless but also humiliated by that, but you said she’d never expressed anger towards her sister.

However, the intense sense of shame and humiliation (and anger) hasn’t just disappeared. And so she was expressing it to you, with whom she felt safe to express anger and to shame you as much as she pleases. So I’m thinking that this entire ritual of bathing you beyond appropriate age might have been a way to revenge for the humiliation she’d experienced as a child.

It also had sexual connotations, and so I’m wondering whether she was sexually abused (e.g. inappropriately touched) in the orphanage? Has she ever shared anything about that period of her life?

Alternatively, sexual connotations might also have to do with her obsession with sexuality, which we’ve talked about, and sort of punishing you (as a representative of all women) for “stealing” her father away. Of course, this is pure speculation, I’m just throwing some ideas around, in case it resonates…

This is why she stripped me of agency and a sense of self-worth. No agency/ No self-worth= No leaving her.

Possibly. Though she seemed not to have been too upset when you were leaving to the U.S. I actually wanted to ask you about how she reacted to your leaving. You said she was touching your hand softly before your departure, so I assumed she expressed support. But was she okay with you leaving? May I ask how she reacted later, when the marriage was annulled and you returned home for a brief period?

She didn’t strip my sister of agency the ways she did to me (dressing her etc., until an older, inappropriate age) because my sister is 6 years younger than me and by the time she was born, the mother had to work and so, she placed her in a child-care facility with other children and later in a kindergarten where her agency was not stripped. On the other hand, I never attended a kindergarten, I was with the mother all the time for 5+ years.

Oh I see. So your sister got to socialize with other children from an early age (and your mother spent less time with her during the first years of her life). Unlike with you, when she was a stay-at-home mom, and you spent your entire time with her, up to your elementary school. It seems your mother didn’t even try to establish total control over your sister like she did with you.

You said she claimed your sister was more independent, so perhaps that played a role too. But she didn’t even try, or didn’t have the opportunity to instill complete control (including physical/bodily control) over your sister. However, she clearly managed to establish emotional control over her, since your sister believed she was a whore:

An example of her violating my sister’s rights: she called her a “wh***” so many, many times. A guy who knew her (in her early 30s) told me that she told him, as in a trance, “I am a wh***! I am a wh***! I am a wh***” (again and again, as in a cry for help)

And she also did whatever your mother told her to do:

emotionally, she (said later) felt like a puppet on strings, and in some major ways (doing whatever the mother wanted her to do), her lack of agency was very evident.

So, she was emotionally “enslaved” (i.e. strongly enmeshed) with your mother, even though her body was free from your mother’s intrusions. Eventually, you left home to get some distance from your mother’s abuse. But your sister stayed and I imagine continued receiving abuse?

Copilot: “Sadism is the tendency to derive pleasure from the pain, suffering, or humiliation of others.

Sadistic Personality Disorder (SPD): Proposed in the DSM‑III‑R (1987) but later removed from official diagnostic manuals… Removed because it overlapped heavily with other disorders (e.g., Antisocial Personality Disorder) and raised concerns about excusing criminal behavior.

Lack of remorse, guilt, or empathy…. A pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others…

Oh, I didn’t know there used to be a special category called Sadistic Personality Disorder in the DSM, which was later replaced by Antisocial Personality Disorder.

Yeah, sadism and APD do overlap, but they aren’t the same. APD is more typical for criminals, people who disregard rules and social norms. It can also be an obnoxious neighbor who is making noise in the middle of the night, disregarding the fact that it disturbs people who live in the same apartment building.

Whereas sadism doesn’t even need to include criminal behavior, and yet can be very hurtful. I’m thinking now that making pranks on people can also be a form of sadism – enjoying seeing when someone gets hurt physically, or embarrassed/humiliated (i.e. hurt emotionally).

And yes, your mother enjoyed when you (and others whom she’d shamed and humiliated) would get hurt emotionally, or even physically (when she would scrub your head to the point of pain, or when she would slap you on the face multiple times “till her hands hurt”).

What is getting clearer for me here, is the violation of my rights point, it never really sunk in that my sister and I had rights. And that she violated those rights repeatedly never expressing guilt or remorse to either one of us (except that one time, a bit, in regard to force feeding me as a baby).

Yes, that’s a very good observation: her disregard for and violation of your rights. By bathing you inappropriately, she was actually violating your rights (e.g. the right to bodily autonomy, or however it is called). And I believe she would have been held accountable for that – had the authorities known about it.

It occurs to me that she glorified, or at least excused criminals (both in real life and on film). Which means that she didn’t have a huge problem with criminal, antisocial behavior. It wasn’t morally objectionable to her, but she didn’t practice it so not to have problems with the law.

She also was aware that being more physically abusive with you (akin to breaking your bones) would have gotten her in trouble with the authorities. So she restrained herself – not because it was the right thing to do, but because she didn’t want to get caught.

Anyway, she definitely violated your rights, and for some of those violations, she would have been prosecuted, I believe. …

Okay, I’ve just refreshed the forums and saw your latest post. My goodness, Anita, that’s pretty serious stuff. It could have been that she would have been charged on more accounts than I thought 😕 😢

I’ll stop here for now and will continue tomorrow. I’m very sorry that all this happened to you. But also glad that, as you say, talking about it now and understanding it is bringing you liberation and healing. ❤️ 🙏

And no, it’s not too much for me. It is tough, it’s painful even to listen to (and I can imagine how painful it is to you), but I’m glad that you can look at some of those dark places and bring light and healing to them. I just hope it’s not too much for you?

❤️ 🙏 🫶 ❤️

Dear Anita,

In the past, I would have taken the “slowly” as criticism, hearing something like “You are not connecting the dots fast enough!” (with an angry tone of voice). That’s how hypersensitive I was to anything that was critical, or to something my mind twisted into criticism.

So, after noticing this a moment ago, I reread the above and I realize that indeed it is a slow process and when you used the word “slowly”, you were kindly guiding me in this process, and I know there was nothing critical in your words. And so, being guided well, I am relaxing into the process and letting go of any rushing through it.

Thanks for sharing this, Anita, and for being frank about what would have triggered you in the past. I’m glad that you didn’t see my words as criticism, because they really weren’t meant like that. By “slowly” I meant gradually, and in fact my intention wasn’t to focus on the speed of the process, but on the process itself: you connecting the dots. I chose the phrase “connecting the dots” because what you described sounded like that:

An image that came to my mind on the first reading was that of a blank piece of paper with little markings here and there, scribblings, and Tee drawing lines through blank spaces, connecting items, filling the blanks with a story, my story.

And I felt like it’s you, not me, connecting the dots. I do mention certain things and give suggestions, but then you connect it to a memory you had, or make further connections (such as that your mother’s hyper-focus on sexuality may be related to her childhood trauma around her father). So when you said that I am drawing lines through blank spaces, I feel that you are doing it, or that perhaps that I’m helping you do it 😊

Anyway, my point wasn’t the speed, but the process itself 😊 And I’m happy that you took my words as affirming and supportive, rather than criticism ❤️

Wow, Tee.. This fits well with her black and white/ all or nothing thinking. Either a woman is to hurt/ manipulate a man OR she will be hurt by him. No shades of grey.

Right. She saw relationships as a power struggle: one is dominant, the other is submissive. One is in control, the other is controlled. And I guess that’s typical for narcissistic people: there’s no mutuality and win-win in their relationships. It’s always competition, where one party is the winner and the other is the loser.

She had never spoke against her father other than to say he turned to women and alcohol. Didn’t blame him, never expressed anger at him. Her oldest sister did express anger at him, she said that she was terrified of him, that she used to accidently lose control of her bladder when she heard him approaching because he used to severely beat her up.

(She proceeded to severely beat the mother.. and then, she severely beat a few of her own children, one who was epileptic).

Except that she never exacted revenge against people she feared, like her oldest sister, or her father.

Could be that your mother suppressed her anger against her father, because she was afraid of him. Perhaps he didn’t beat her up, like he did her oldest sister, because she was too little. But she might have witnessed those beatings and started fearing him anyway. So I can imagine that feeling angry at him didn’t feel safe for her, and so she suppressed it.

But still, this anger remained in her system (she still felt betrayed and abandoned by him), and later she expressed it – freely and fully – at your father. If I understood well, your father wasn’t a bully in the sense that he would be physically abusive to her, right? So she probably felt safe to express that anger at him. Same as she felt safe to express anger at those weaker than her: her own children.

Perhaps it could be said that she freely expressed her anger at those whom she felt safe with: those weaker than herself. Perhaps she felt that your music teacher was “weaker” than her, or anybody else whom she shamed and yelled at openly:

And exacting revenge is what she did to other people as well when she exploded at them, shaming them as well, saying whatever words are likely to cause them the most pain.

Whereas with other people – perhaps more intimidating people, i.e. bullies – she didn’t dare to express anger. She might have stayed silent or treated those people carefully. Have you noticed anything like that?

Sexuality as a tool- yes, totally. I am still drawing a blank on the “threat” point.. for some reason.

I meant, she felt threatened by female sexuality, because seductive, sexy women took away her father, and also took away her husband from her. So I meant in that sense, sexuality was a threat…

Yes, very much so, Tee. Again, this is something I didn’t think about, the connection between her and revenge. Exacting revenge is what she repeatedly did (I am feeling anxious right now) every time she went about a shaming attack against me, the smile on her face when she saw the hurt on my face when a shaming word landed just.. right.

Yes, unfortunately, saying cruel, hurtful things to you was a form of revenge (for whatever perceived “offense” you were guilty of. Of course she would always find a reason, an invented reason, why you’re guilty of something, so she could punish you).

She probably felt slighted by life, by other people (both men and women, it seems to me). And she had this perpetual anger about her, which she needed to release somehow. You were unfortunately one of the “safe” people to release it on, because you were weaker than her, and she believed she could do with you whatever she pleases. So you were her punching bag, unfortunately, for releasing all that anger that was inside of her. 😕

And exacting revenge is what she did to other people as well when she exploded at them, shaming them as well, saying whatever words are likely to cause them the most pain. And after she was done, she seemed calm, or just exhausted.

She vented her anger, which I imagine like releasing some steam from the pressure cooker. And for a while she felt calm, because the internal pressure went down. But soon enough, it would build up again (because the anger was never addressed and processed), and she would seek another opportunity to release it.

The way I see it, she was perpetually angry, with occasional (or frequent) outbursts, whenever the pressure was too high and needed to be released. And she vented at people whom she felt safe with, which is you, your sister and others whom she felt are weaker than her.

I wonder if this resonates with your experience?

Dear Anita, I’ll reply to the rest hopefully tomorrow. And no, I don’t find these posts too long. I mean they are long partly because of the Copilot input, but that’s okay. This is important stuff, and I don’t mind analyzing it all. But it’s also true that we don’t need to rush to figure out everything at once 😊

You said you’re tired, sitting in front of the computer for hours. So please, go outside, go for a walk if the weather allows it, and breathe in some fresh air 😊

See you tomorrow! 😊

❤️ 🫶 ❤️

Dear Anita,

I officially withdraw my offer to climb a mountain 😂

I’m relieved to hear that! 😊 And I’m glad that Copilot agrees with me and has suggested alternative ways to strengthen your thigh muscles. But it seems you really wanted to climb that high mountain, right? (“Sadly, for me, Copilot agrees with you wholeheartedly”) I hope you’re not too disappointed about it…

Love and Acceptance for myself. Lots 😊 ❤️

Very good to hear that! ❤️

Yes, indeed, Tee knows a lot about it 😊, AND you are able to articulate and explain it all better than anyone I’ve ever come across in my whole life, a few therapists included.. and by far!

Thank you, Anita, for your kind words ❤️

Not quite. She had a terrible early childhood because of the traumatic time her family suffered when they immigrating in the early 50s to Israel, living in tents in horrible conditions they didn’t expect. Next her mother died at childbirth when she was 9, her father turned to women and alcohol. Sometime during that time, she was sent to an institution (not an official orphanage, a place for children with no one to care for them). She wasn’t “given” to her older sister, I don’t think. Nothing was organized back then. She just ended up with her oldest sister who shamed her terribly. The mother had a “good” shaming model.

Oh I see… so her mother was alive until she was 9. But then she suddenly became orphaned: first her mother “abandoned” her, then her father too. And perhaps the wound from being abandoned by her father – who instead of taking care of his children, turned to alcohol and women – was even greater than the one caused by the loss of her mother, I don’t know.

But in any case, there must have been a strong abandonment wound, and also a strong sense of worthlessness, because the child believes that it’s their fault when the parent abandons them. And then came her older sister’s shaming (and possibly poor treatment in the orphanage) on top of that.

So I can kind of understand where that sentiment to cut her head off photos came from… she must have felt unlovable and worthless. So worthless that her own father abandoned her, and she went from having a family to having no one within perhaps weeks or months.

Of course, none of that excuses her behavior with you later. Her own brother reacted differently to a similar kind of trauma. But nevertheless, I see the roots of that… and where it can lead when the person doesn’t acknowledge it (doesn’t acknowledge their own wounding), but instead starts blaming others.

Yes, I understand and I agree. Yet, what I was referring to were people who were clearly abusive to me, people who took advantage of me for their selfish advantages. In comparison to even those people, SHE was a Hurting Champion. No one “better” at it, no one more effective at delivering emotional injury.. again and again. Those emotional daggers. In a twisted way.. she deserved a medal.

Oh I see, you’re talking about people whom you knew in private, whom you were closely related to. And she was able to cause more hurt than any of those selfish people in your life…

Yeah, I can imagine that. You called her behavior vicious, and based on what you’ve shared, it definitely was. It wasn’t just a “regular” shaming, but telling you such cruel things that cut deep into our heart and soul.

In my view, one such vicious remark was telling you (when you were a small child) that she told your father that he should have sexually abused you as a baby, since he was such a womanizer. For me, that’s like the next level of cruelty and heartlessness.

She said it to punish him for cheating on her, but she didn’t have any regard for you, and how such a remark can impact a child. And I can imagine that in many other instances, as you said, she had absolutely no limits as to how hurtful, how deprived her remarks were. I can imagine she went for maximum hurt, for the worst possible impact, and she delivered it with pleasure, being satisfied that she’s hurt you so successfully. That’s already sadism…

BTW, it occurs to me now that she might have had a significant trauma from her father abandoning her for other women. And so she might have found a similar man, your father, who might have been a womanizer himself (if her allegations were true) and who, unfortunately, abandoned you and your sister after they got divorced (if I got that right?).

I apologize if I’m jumping to conclusions here, and also if this is something you don’t feel comfortable talking about… But perhaps she relived a part of her childhood trauma again with her husband? And if her trauma has never been processed, she would have been punishing her husband, being really mean to him, and telling him horrible things – to revenge for having been hurt and abandoned by her own father.

And she seems to have been punishing you too, being really mean to you, because her heart became so hardened, that she had no love in it for anyone, including herself. What remained in her heart was hatred, it seems, and this hatred was driving her to be mean to you, to cause as much hurt as possible, to become sadistic almost…

Perhaps that’s how a person becomes a “monster”? By hardening their heart to the point of hatred and revenge…

I don’t feel dissociated at all. Not the way I knew dissociation. I remember, somewhere in the U.S., I was walking and didn’t notice and before I knew it, a big truck, I mean huge, commercial truck almost ran me over. I just didn’t notice. My current ongoing lack of visual memory may be part of an ongoing dissociation.. brain damage, more likely.

Oh yes, I remember you mentioning it before: about it being pure luck that you didn’t get run over by that truck! I don’t remember if you talked about it, but you were probably upset about something, you were “beside yourself” (what an appropriate expression!), and your ability to pay attention to your surroundings was even less than usual.

I don’t think that your inability to remember certain things in your surroundings (like whether your bathroom has windows or not) necessarily indicates brain damage. It might rather point at dissociation or even preoccupation with our own internal processes, which as a result has the inability to recall things from our environment.

I used to be like that too – very bad at remembering things in my physical environment – because I was preoccupied with thinking what will people think of me, how I come across… I had this constant toxic shame about myself, and so I was focusing on myself, on my internal discomfort and anxiety. And this prevented me from actually paying attention to other people or my physical environment.

Do you feel that similar might be true for you?

I am feeling empathy, affection for little girl/ adolescent Tee.

Thank you, Anita ❤️

Those were not LUXURY flowers, those one would by in a store. … My heart was.. not luxury in her mind 😢

Oh I see… your mother was a lover of luxury, and so simple things didn’t really make her tick… And since her heart was hardened, she couldn’t receive a gift from your heart… that concept was strange for her… and so she had to reject it and even humiliate you for trying 😢 A heart of stone, unfortunately…

One of the most difficult memories for me was when she held my hand (I was mid/ later 20s) on the way to the airport where I was to fly (alone) to the U.S.). She placed her soft, warm hand on mine.. and I wanted to exit my skin, exit my body so to not feel that softness, that warmth.. It felt intense, very intensely negative. Any idea what that was about, Tee?

I guess you knew that her seemingly loving, caring and supportive touch is none of that. You knew her true self, and that her touch was insincere. Unless she was supportive of you going to the U.S. (because it was linked to her dream of becoming rich?), and so in that brief moment, that touch was to express support for you?

Again, never crossed my mind, but since you mentioned it, yes, he wanted to cause a scene. He knew of the mother being aggressive. Generally, yes, he was a trouble maker in school.

Okay, so she was known as aggressive and perhaps someone who can be easily provoked? Perhaps there were instances in the past where she “defended” you? Perhaps against his bullying, or another kid’s bullying? So he knew that she would likely be provoked this time too, and so he didn’t want to miss that scene…

But yeah, her defense of you was most likely her ego being hurt by public humiliation. And so she lashed out at the teacher, to restore her “good name.” Something like that. She didn’t care about you, and your feelings being hurt, but about herself and her feelings…

Maybe the teacher felt guilty. As to consequences for calling me “auntie”- from the principle or so- I doubt it. There was no protect-the-child policy .. Unless you break the child’s bones, literally 😞

Oh I see – so it was allowed to shame pupils – no one cared and no one would get sanctioned. Yes, I guess those were different times, where children were treated much more harshly both by their parents and their teachers. Nowadays, at least the standards for the teachers have changed…

No Heart= still human?

Yes, heartless human. Or better say, a human whose heart has turned to stone. I believe the person could still choose to unlock their heart, but their defenses stop them. But the heart – the ability to love – still exists somewhere underneath those layers of defenses. At least that’s how I see it…

Never a meeting of the minds.

Or a meeting of the hearts rather? Her heart was closed, turned to stone.. and it couldn’t receive you.

She was a stranger to you, because she refused to see you and receive you. And to be seen and received in her vulnerability, her humanity…

At the same time, she was more than a stranger, because a stranger might be neutral towards you, whereas your mother wasn’t. She was unfortunately against you – because she needed to prop herself up. She was against you, as a defense mechanism. But nevertheless, her defense mechanism caused you a great deal of harm.

I know it’s hard to navigate this, Anita. I’m just offering my perspective, hoping that it helps somewhat…. I’m glad you seem to be healing from some of it… 🤞 ❤️ 🙏

❤️ 🫶 ❤️

Dear Anita,

“Turn around and look at what you see”- Turning around, I see… I see the Hope for a New Story.

A story breaking away from the old story.

So happy to hear that! ❤️

Another inspiring verse from the song:

In your hands
The birth of the new day

A new day, free from the false narrative, embracing the truth of who you really are, not who you mother conditioned you to believe you are… I’m happy that you’re seeing the prospects of that new day and the new story unfolding before you ❤️

The word “slave” is sinking in, strangely the word never occurred to me until you brought it up.

I just thought slave as in you were her possession, she did with you as she pleased…

She never expressed to me any concern for the fetus-me not being adequately fed, nor did she express anyone else voicing such a concern to her. You are the first person in MY WHOLE LIFE to bring up this concern!

I guess I’m not surprised that she hasn’t expressed any concern for you either as a fetus, or as a baby or beyond (specially not something that would indicate a mistake on her part, a lack of care for you). But I’m sorry that no one else mentioned anything, or at least not that you know about it, e.g. your father, or perhaps one of her sisters (although it would be no surprise if her older sister, the one who abused her, didn’t show any concern…).

I guess she grew up in very deprived conditions, with no maternal (or paternal) care. Her older sister – who became her caretaker after the orphanage period (if I remember well) abused her, so again, she received no care and empathy there either.

And so she didn’t have it in her: she didn’t have the capacity for empathy, neither towards herself (which is visible from starving and hating her own body), nor towards others, including her own children.

My intention is not to reject a compliment, but truly it was not a feat at all. I mean, really, sincerely, I am sure of it. Not only there was no comfort in the zone.. it was not even familiar. There was nothing at all in her behavior that I could rely on. She could have exploded at any time in a very scary way. Although it happened too often, it never got to be “familiar”.. no comfort in predictability, not to any extent.

Oh I see, there was no predictability and no comfort in any aspect of your relationship with your mother. There was nothing to hold on, so to speak, nothing safe. So for you, venturing out to the US wasn’t such a scary idea at all.

I believe a part of it may be that you were a bit dissociated, so you didn’t even think of what might go wrong – you just bought the ticket and off you went, hoping for something better, better than what you had at home, I guess?

She shot daggers of shame from her eyes to my heart, a big ouch every time.

Yep, that’s familiar… 🙁

“And you sank into depression, and soon saw to annul the marriage..”- I did sink into depression. He came up with the annulment.

Oh okay. Yes, you said that after she went home (and already during her stay), you felt horrible and fell into despair. You left NYC (and I guess your new husband) and flew to New Orleans, “for no particular reason other than hoping for a relief.” And you stayed there for a while. I guess that’s when he decided to ask for annulment, right?

Right. She wasn’t pleased when I sent her ALL the money I had at one point, 17,000 dollars (decades ago). After a couple of years she sent it back to me because she said it wasn’t enough. (Your thoughts, Tee?)

Yeah, unfortunately another proof that you could never please her, that you’re never enough, no matter what you do.

A covert narcissistic mother cannot really accept gifts – she cannot accept an honest gift from your heart – I think because she would need to open her heart and receive your love (a gift being an expression of your love). And she cannot do that: she has to believe that you don’t love her and that it’s only her who loves you. In her twisted mind, she is the one who gives, who loves, while you are the faulty one, the undeserving one, whom she nevertheless “loves” and provides for.

She gives, you receive, because she believes you’re unable to give, you have nothing to give. That’s I think the twisted reasoning behind the covert narcissistic mother rejecting our gifts. Not sure it’s true, but it might be…

This makes me feel like I am not alone, like I was never alone 🙂 (even though it felt like it). Don’t get me wrong, I wish you didn’t experience any part of what I did. It’s just that I no longer feel alone in that experience.

I’m glad my experience is helping you ❤️ It took me years to understand this dynamic, it was so insidious. I’ve only started to understand in the last couple of years… Aah, I feel heavy just thinking about it. But okay, it’s much easier once you understand it and don’t fall for their pity party to easily…

Yes.. EXACTLY. You understand me so very well. Thank you! (I felt stupid for missing something so obvious)

That’s because I’ve experienced such situations, not in interpersonal relationships, but in everyday life, when I start catastrophizing and thinking of the worse, when there could be a number of other, more benign reasons why something is happening. But fear blinds us to other, more trivial or more benign possibilities, and we only imagine the worst.

Yes, I believed her. She was quite convincing. Even adults (like in the elementary school setting) did not challenge her. She stopped shaming and threatening the music teacher only when she ran out of steam, only when she exhausted herself.

Wow, that’s bad that no one even tried to tell her to calm down. They just took their yelling and screaming without saying a word. What was it that she was upset about? Maybe there was some truth in what she was saying (and that’s why the music teacher felt intimidated?), but the way she was saying it was completely inappropriate.

But it can also be that many decent people don’t know how to react in such situations (when they are verbally attacked), and they are kind of shocked and taken aback, and can only gather their thoughts later.

“Because you believed her threats and you felt bound, even paralyzed, by fear..”- she pointed to her wrists, showing me where she would make the cut, with a knife.

Oh that’s horrible. I think that’s an example of coercive control, which Copilot mentioned in its analysis. She controlled your behavior by threatening to kill herself. She forced you to behave in a certain way by threatening suicide… appalling 😕

I read in the other thread that your back is doing better, but you are having problems with your knees, but you’ve got a plan. My best wishes are for you, Tee.

Thank you, Anita ❤️

Like I said before, I’d climb a very, very tall mountain if it’d take your pain a way.

Magical thinking, I know.. but I would climb a mountain for you!!!

That’s sweet of you to say, but I suggest you better spare your knees – you want to have them working smoothly for decades to come 🙂 But thank you anyway, you’re a sweetheart ❤️

❤️ 🫶 ❤️