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ParticipantDear aVoid,
Both Buddhism and Stoicism believe that life has an inevitable suffering. For Buddhism finds meaning by ending suffering. Stoicism finds meaning by accepting suffering.
I am not a Buddhist myself but am following a Buddhist-based psychotherapist on youtube. Her name is Barbara Heffernan. She explains that according to Buddhism, there is inevitable (or unavoidable) suffering, and there is also avoidable suffering.
Unavoidable suffering and pain can be due to illness, death of a loved one, war, accidents etc… Avoidable suffering is a product of our false beliefs, when we tell ourselves stories which aren’t true (e.g. that we are doomed, or that we are worthless), and this adds to our suffering. So, our false perceptions and false beliefs can lead to suffering that could be avoided.
So when you say you decided to accept suffering, I say yes, good decision, however I would suggest this: accept only the inevitable suffering. Don’t accept and create avoidable suffering.
Tee
ParticipantDear Katrine,
I am glad your physical pain is gone! But I understand you’re now forced to work a lot, to pay for your medical treatment. I do hope you won’t have to do it for much longer, and that you’ll be able to return to normal working hours.
Sleeping only 3-4 hours per night is a problem… it seems to be related to not being in a relationship, because earlier this year you were in a relationship, living with a man, and you could sleep normally. Perhaps it’s connected to you feeling anxious alone vs. more peaceful and content when in a relationship. Being single adds to your anxiety, which in turns causes problem with your sleep?
The feeling of being left out still hurts. I went home early from the staff party yesterdaylike i always do. Being in a party setting and everybody being drunk and a ting out is not my thing. It also makes me feel jeloux. Seeing my two friends cling to the guy i like for obvious reasons. But also seeing everybody having fun while drinking. It send me back to High school. Always feeling like the odd man out, and that I’m suposed to enjoy it. I just doesn’t.
You don’t need to enjoy wild parties with lots of drinking and loud music. I myself have never been a fan of such parties… I’ve tried it but it wasn’t for me. So I never really went, or went only a few times and then stopped.
But I see your problem – you crave to be included, to be accepted… and you are not getting that. Maybe sometimes you go to those parties in hope of some love and connection, but it doesn’t happen… In all honesty, one of the reasons it doesn’t happen is because people get drunk, and they cannot really connect in a meaningful way if they are drunk. They are not themselves. You couldn’t even connect with anyone meaningfully in such an atmosphere…
But you experience it differently – you feel hurt and rejected, because it triggers the old wound of rejection. Someone without this wound would say “Nah, I am not going to another party like this because this is total chaos, everybody’s drunk and I feel stupid watching others getting drunk. I’ll rather go to XY place, where there is no alcohol and I can talk to people and mingle.”
But I understand why you can’t say this, why it hurts to feel excluded, even from a bunch of drunk guys.
Because you feel not worthy enough, not good enough… And as I’ve said before, I think it all stems from your emotional neglect in childhood. You might have experienced exclusion more acutely in high school, because that’s when belonging to a peer group is super important to us. For me too, the first time I’ve experienced exclusion was in high school, not earlier. I felt ugly and boring, like no one wants to spend time with me because I am so uninteresting, I am so worthless really. That was my thinking back then…
Later I’ve realized that I felt so inferior compared to my peers because of my mother’s treatment of me. My mother’s severe criticism led me to feel worthless. For you, it’s probably your parents’ emotional neglect. They weren’t there for you, and so you concluded that you are worthless of their time and attention. That something is terribly wrong with you.
I guess we’ve talked already about the inner child healing, which you would need in order to get rid of the sense of worthlessness. Becoming a good parent to yourself, embracing that little girl that often felt alone and abandoned. That’s the ultimate cure, and it helped me as well…
Tee
ParticipantDear iamone,
I was thinking about your situation… I don’t necessarily think that you lack self-love and self-esteem, and here is why: you didn’t feel bad about yourself when the supervisor at your previous job (which you quit) told you you performed poorly.
They thought I was horrible at what I do (I think that was very harsh; it takes time to build up your confidence and become skilled at some things)
That’s a healthy self-protection instinct: you rejected their harsh evaluation and treated yourself with kindness, telling yourself that “it takes time to build up your confidence and become skilled at some thing”. That’s not how someone with low self-esteem would react. A person with low self-esteem would take other people’s criticism to heart and start berating themselves. But not you – you rather dismissed their criticism and called them losers, rather than taking any of that criticism on yourself. That’s why I believe you don’t have a real problem with self-esteem.
At the same time, you do have a problem, because you do believe you are a “loser”. The reason you believe you are a loser is not because you believe you lack skills or talent, but because you haven’t reached the success you hoped for. Be it material success, or career success or relationship success. So I would like to explore your definition of success a bit more…
This is how you defined a perfect career (a part of your description of a perfect life):
you have a job in which you are able to use your best talents and which you find interesting and rewarding both intrinsically and extrinsically (pay).
The above would mean career success for you, right? Using your best talents in a job that you find interesting and fulfilling, and which pays well too.
At the same time, this is what you said about using your talents:
I haven’t been true to who I am and the gifts I’ve been given.
I really enjoy very little. My entire life has been focused on trying to achieve things that will make others see me as respectable or acceptable.
I paint paintings, but I think I do it to be able to say – Look! I’m a successful artist! rather than because I enjoy it.
There seems to be a conflict within you: on one hand, you would like to do something you enjoy and that would give you fulfillment (and be well paid). But on the other hand, your entire life has been focused on “trying to achieve things that will make others see me as respectable or acceptable”. You haven’t spent your life trying to develop your talents, but you have spent your life (so far) trying to impress everyone. Trying to get their approval and validation.
To me it seems like you’re sitting on two chairs. One is being true to yourself and following your passion (hoping that it would result in material success too). The other is chasing the money and what you deem a “respectable” career (being a lawyer or a doctor), but disregarding your heart’s desire. You are sitting on both chairs and you sort of fell in between them. The result: you have neither fulfillment nor money/career success.
If you want a chance at a “perfect life”, as you define it, I think you’d need to choose. And I think you’d need to choose your heart’s desire (to thy own self be true), regardless of what others will say or how ridiculous that desire might seem to some of the people….
Tee
ParticipantDear Katrine,
I was just about to write to when you posted… I am so sorry that you were in extreme pain and that you needed expensive health treatment (if I understood well?). Are you getting better now?
You made a great summary of all the things you’ve learned from this experience. I guess it’s easy to forget that and focus on the negative – specially when you are in pain, not just emotional but also physical! Besides being in pain, you haven’t slept much for a month, you worked too much and you feel exhausted. I hope that you’re not in pain any longer and that you can finally get some proper rest.
In recent days you felt rejected by your colleagues, however in the meanwhile you’ve realized that there were times in the past when you cancelled plans with your friends because you thought they don’t like you. You pushed them away before they could do that to you:
Or all the times i cancelled plans with my friends because i was convinced that they didn’t really like me, even though they kept showing me that they did (self sabotaging behaviour, pushing away the people closets to me)
You also said that when you were suffering from depression, people eventually stopped asking you to go out with them, because you always said no:
I mean other people have done that to me before. Would have been nice to have been invited anyway. Like when i had a depression people stopped asking me cuz i always said no, but not being asked hurt a lot. Makes you feel like they don’t care.
So you can see that often it’s not that people don’t like you and want to exclude you, but that you feel not good enough and sort of exclude yourself first. You reject yourself (self-sabotage) before others can reject you.
It’s good that you see this pattern, which has been happening not just with the guys you liked, but also with your friends and colleagues. The pattern is: reject them before they can reject you.
Now that you see the behavior, you can work on changing it. But first, I think you should get plenty of rest if possible, before continuing working on your trauma response and other mental health topics. Will you have the opportunity to rest and relax in the following days?
Tee
ParticipantDear Katrine,
unfortunately I need to leave for a few hours but will get back to you a little later to continue our conversation… talk to you later!
Tee
ParticipantDear Katrine,
It comes on top of one the girls (the one adding pressure on me before the date) asking people to join her after work for drinks (last friday and today) but didn’t included me. Do now i feel both heartbroken and like i am slowly being cut off for some reason.
I see now how you feel rejected on two levels – both by him and by this colleague who didn’t invite you to go for drinks with the rest of the group. You feel excluded and rejected. And this bring up the old wound: of feeling worthless. That’s why this has been so painful for you.
As I said, it’s the consequence of childhood trauma. We can talk about it some more…
Tee
ParticipantDear Katrine,
I feel it’s my whole being that’s worthless
that’s probably a reaction to having been neglected in your childhood, to not having anyone really take you under their wing and protect you from bullying and other bad things happening around you. Your sister was, due to her illness, priority No1 for your parents, and you were left to your own devices. You were emotionally neglected. That can cause us to feel worthless – because the child always blames themselves for not getting proper love and care. We believe there is something wrong with us. That it is our fault that we were neglected and rejected… and so we conclude that we are worthless.
But that’s not true of course… I guess rationally you know that’s not true? You know that it’s the childhood trauma that caused it (you said you’ve been diagnosed with C-PTSD. Btw I also had it. Everyone with childhood trauma – be it neglect or abuse – has it.)
We can talk about ways how to stop feeling worthless, if you’d like.
Tee
ParticipantPerhaps a slightly different wording for Lesson 3:
“I should not take refusal too personally. My worth is not determined by if I am in a relationship or not.”
Tee
ParticipantDear Katrine,
I think i am returning to the old patterns of emotional unavailable person being atracted to an emotional unavailable person
You were/are attracted to an emotionally unavailable person, however you did break your own pattern of emotional unavailability and you made a move! That’s a huge step – you should congratulate yourself for that!
There is no need to return to being emotionally unavailable, even though things didn’t work out with him. You’ve made progress and that’s what counts most. In fact, I think you should reframe the whole experience and focus on the lessons learned:
First, I think you’ve learned that you can trust your instincts because the guy did show signs that he liked you, even though he later rejected your advances. Nevertheless, you were not crazy thinking that he likes you. You were not imagining things. He did behave as if he liked you.
And so that’s lesson No1: “I can tell if a guy likes me or not”.
Secondly, you can repair what you’ve “messed up” in early interactions with someone. You can write a letter, apologize, speak your mind, express yourself…. in short: you can express yourself and clarify how you feel. It doesn’t have to remain in the realm of guessing, high anxiety, trying to read his mind, watching his every move and every gesture looking for signs…
I think that by expressing yourself and your feelings, you took a very mature approach. You took responsibility for your side of the relationship. You were clear, honest and open. And friendly, without judging him if he refuses. That’s as mature and emotionally balanced as it gets!
So lesson No2 maybe could be: “I can approach a relationship in a mature and emotionally balanced way. I don’t have to do it perfectly from the start, but I can repair whatever I’ve messed up, and speak my truth in a balanced and mature way.”
And lesson No3 (which you’ve already established): “I should not take refusal too personally. My worth is not determined by if a man is with me or not.”
What do you think?
Tee
ParticipantDear Katrine,
I said i shut down because of my anxiety, it only happens when i really like someone so really it’s a compliment.
Okay, that’s clear enough. If he wanted to pursue a relationship with you, he would have reacted to that and told you something like “I like you too…” and it would have progressed from there. But since he didn’t, unfortunately it does mean he doesn’t want a relationship with you. It still doesn’t mean he doesn’t like you, but as we have discussed before, it could be because he fears intimacy. One of your colleagues said “that guy is all over the place (referring to his mental health)”, so it wouldn’t be a surprise if he is confused or scared or anxious to be in a relationship.
i think i should try and not take this too personally. My worth is not determined by if a man is with me or not.
Definitely! Don’t think that you aren’t good enough or worthy enough, just because he said no. There is nothing wrong with you, and you can hold your head high!
The way I see it, the reason he didn’t invite you to his birthday could be two. One is that he likes you and that’s why he feels he feels he cannot stay friends with you, without his anxiety going up. He cannot just nonchalantly talk to you, pretending he has no feelings for you, when in fact he does.
The other reason could be that he doesn’t want to give you false hopes. He may think that by inviting you, it will get your hopes up about a possible relationship, and he doesn’t want that. So he is kind of preventing things to go in a wrong direction.
So he might be minimizing the chances of things becoming “too friendly” between the two of you again – either to protect himself or to protect you.
one the girls (the one adding pressure on me before the date) asking people to join her after work for drinks (last friday and today) but didn’t included me. Do now i feel both heartbroken and like i am slowly being cut off for some reason.
Is that the girl who was flirting with him at the bar (when you left without saying goodbye)?
Tee
ParticipantDear Sadlyconfused,
I am really happy that you and in a much better place with your husband and that he is, to use your own words, “nothing alike” your father! That’s fantastic because that means he is not a judgmental, criticizing type, who makes your life miserable, but is an understanding and loving person, whom you can talk to. There was a glitch in his behavior during the pandemic, but as you said, circumstances contributed to that as well. It’s good that you are now seeking to forgive both him and yourself for “any dysfunctional behaviour over the last couple of years”.
If you keep your communication open and honest, knowing that he is not your father and won’t judge you – I think that will be the base for a healthy and emotionally intimate relationship.
That’s fascinating that the pandemic actually enabled you to feel safer because your father couldn’t just pop at your door at any time to harass you. Maybe this feeling of safety encouraged you to stop taking anti-depressants too? (you said you’ve been weening off for the last couple of years, which coincides with the pandemic). Which also means that the reason you were taking anti-depressants all this time was your father and your inability to say No to him, to protect yourself from his harassment, I imagine? But eventually you succeeded:
distancing myself from him was the hardest thing I ever had to do as an adult but to allow the psychological assaults to continue would have been just as bad.
Congratulations on distancing yourself! How is your relationship with your father now?
It also seems that unlike with your father, you felt safe with your husband – safe enough to start reducing the anti-depressants and discovering and expressing your authentic feelings, and showing more and more of your authentic self. I am happy for you!
You were right to react to your husband’s excessive use of Discord:
I certainly couldn’t keep quiet about the things that were bothering me anymore, regardless of how silly they might or might not have been. I was feeling so insecure about it.
It wasn’t silly. He was having an emotional affair with people in the cyber space, and was neglecting you… so you were totally right to make an issue of it. And I am glad that this game doesn’t exist any more, but also that he had already reduced the time he was spending on it, even prior to that. It seems it lost its emotional grip on him, which is good news.
I would like to return to your father briefly:
I sometimes even hear my mind telling myself “I’m bad” or “I’m disgusting” and it’s sad and scary how ingrained these beliefs are. I’m trying to grieve for my childhood when emotion comes up and attempting to talk to myself kindly. In the present day I genuinely don’t feel like I have any reason to feel that way towards myself and I know that it’s not true, yet my nervous system is wired around these messages.
It’s great that you don’t trust the inner critic any more, and when you hear those deprecating words, you try to talk to yourself kindly. That is the way to counter the harsh voice of the inner critic: to talk to yourself with warmth and compassion, like a good, loving parent. You are doing a great job, and all I can say is: Keep up the good work!
It will take some time to stop the automatic thoughts from popping up, but it’s important that you notice them and sort of observe them, but not identify with them.
Apparently it was Martin Luther who said “You cannot keep birds from flying over your head, but you can keep them from building a nest in your hair“. So you notice the deprecating, harsh thought, but you know it’s your Inner Critic, and you counter it with the voice of the Inner Good Parent, or the Inner Coach, as some call it. Someone who loves you and cheers you on, rather than someone who judges you and puts you down.
Tee
ParticipantDear Katrine,
I am sorry he hasn’t invited you to his birthday party. That’s not nice of him and I see how you feel hurt. May I ask – when you sent him the “confession” message in which you apologized for your behavior etc – have you made it clear that you like him more than a friend? I mean, does he know without a doubt that you are interested in him romantically?
Tee
ParticipantDear iamone,
you are welcome. I am glad that what I’ve written gave you at least a little hope.
I figured out exactly when I went from confident and hopeful to dark and withdrawn. It is when I started moving into adolescence and realized I wasn’t excelling in every way as I had hoped. Specifically I noticed I wasn’t as good looking as other girls (at least that was my perception).
I was rejected by the boy I liked so very much (and rightfully so, I might add). But he had no romantic interest in me. And we would talk and he would talk about the girls he did like, and they were the thin, very good-looking type. That rejection went to my core, and in truth I don’t think I’ve ever recovered. I took rejection so deeply, perhaps, because I grew up without a father.
It’s good that you’ve realized when exactly you lost your confidence. Puberty and adolescence are usually the time when we start suffering more (at least I did), because we are sensitive to rejection by our peers, specially by our romantic interests. I too started suffering when I was 16-17, having realized that I am not super pretty and that some other girls attracted much more of the boys’ interest. I started believing that I was ugly, boring and completely undesirable. And I also thought that perhaps I have a few pounds too many, while those model-looking girls are thinner… so I thought if I only lost weight, I’d be more desirable. That’s how my anorexia started, which later turned into bulimia…
Much later I’ve realized that my sense of being unlovable and undesirable wasn’t because I wasn’t super attractive or super popular, but because I was deeply wounded as a child, with my mother sending me a message that I wasn’t good enough. Criticizing me, belittling me, not praising me, scolding me for the slightest mistake…
What I am trying to say is that the rejection I’ve experienced in my adolescence hurt me so much because I was already wounded, because I already felt unloved and undesirable to my mother. (Perceived) rejection by boys and peers was just a trigger for that wound to open and keep getting bigger and bigger… until it lead me to an eating disorder.
I believe that in your case too, you felt rejected and not good enough and unworthy even before this boy rejected you. And you could be right – it could be because you grew up without a father. Perhaps you, in your child’s mind, believed that it was your fault that your father abandoned you? That you weren’t good enough and that’s why he left? It could also be that you didn’t receive enough love and validation from your mother, and that’s why you felt rejected/unappreciated?
My entire life has been focused on trying to achieve things that will make others see me as respectable or acceptable. I try to make my house beautiful. I live in a nice area. I paint paintings, but I think I do it to be able to say – Look! I’m a successful artist! rather than because I enjoy it.
From what you’ve written, it seems to me that you are looking for validation – for others to tell you how important and special you are – because this is something you haven’t received in your childhood. What do you think, could this be the reason?
Tee
ParticipantDear Caroline,
you are welcome. Sure, take as much time as you need. Be easy on yourself – you don’t have to figure it all out immediately. Maybe some things I’ve said resonate, and others don’t. Take only that what resonates with you. And as anita said, take good care of yourself, practice self-care, lots of compassion and empathy for yourself. Talk to you later!
Tee
ParticipantDear iamone,
I am sorry you are feeling very low and finding no meaning in anything. I’ve taken a look at your previous thread, where you said:
I was one of those gifted children, and I thought I would achieve so much! But here I am having so little.
Here, you say:
I felt like a loser as a child and teen, and now I feel like a loser as an adult.
As a gifted child, you still felt like a loser. What do you think contributed to that? It seems that even though you were a gifted child and felt quite competent as a youth (you felt you would achieve much), someone gave you the message that you were a loser, i.e. that you weren’t good enough.
I believe this might be at the core of why you didn’t have a desired success in your career, and why you feel you’ve failed many times (I’ve failed so many times, I don’t feel I can handle another failure.).
And the worst part of everything is I’m old. No one wants to be friends with old people. Ageism is real, and it’s horrible.
If I understood well, you are 56. That’s not old. It is your perception that you are old. But I understand that when we feel low and defeated, everything seems much worse than it is.
I am not trying to minimize your problems – just that if you look at things from the perspective of “I am a loser and I’ve failed”, then it’s hard. That’s why I think you need to get to the bottom of the problem and challenge the notion (the false belief) that you are a loser.
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