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TeeParticipantDear Dan,
I am glad that my first post aligns with how you view the situation and that you feel it’s close to the truth. Let me just quickly repeat the gist of what I said about your needs:
I am thinking that maybe you need a companion who doesn’t have so many responsibilities with children and other people in her life, but can spend a lot of pleasurable time with you, going to trips, concerts, mini vacations etc. You need someone who is free (and care-free enough) to spend a lot of pleasurable time with you, and not burdened by all those responsibilities.
So you need a lot of alone time with your wife, spent in pleasurable and fun activities, where you can enjoy each other’s presence. Is that right?
That in itself is a legitimate need, i.e. a legitimate thing to look for in a partner. There are many people who don’t have children, or who have grown children, and who want to enjoy life as much as possible. This may include traveling, going to concerts, engaging in hobbies, and simply having a lot of free time just to themselves. It would be perfect if you could have such a companion, with similar needs and preferences, and a similar level of freedom.
But let me be completely honest: I think that even if you found such a partner, I am afraid you wouldn’t be truly happy, because it seems that your happiness depends on your partner (Much of my happiness came from her), which you yourself said is not healthy.
So I agree that you would need a better relationship with yourself first (What I need is a better relationship with myself), and only then consider another relationship, or perhaps even renewal of the relationship with your wife.
To be honest though. I’m still holding onto hope that maybe in a few years my wife and I could possibly get back together. With how things went down I do keep that hope alive.
I understand that. You see her as a perfect woman for you, you said you love her unconditionally. But unfortunately there can be quite a few years before your wife is free to love you freely. Because she seems to have a tremendous sense of guilt if she spends time away from her children. And the children, specially her son, seem to have something against you. In the worse-case scenario, it could be as much as 8 years (till her son is 18) until your wife feels free (guilt-free) to be with you again. Are you willing to wait (and suffer) that long?
I mean, you might even choose to wait, but as you yourself said, use that time wisely and work on yourself: I think it’s a good time to work on myself, improve myself and who knows what the future holds?
Exactly! The future is unpredictable, but one thing is certain: if you want a better future, you would need to heal those emotional scars that prevent you from being happy. You would need to learn to be happy even without a “perfect” partner to meet your needs.
And now we come to the core of the problem: the emotional scars, and the abuse you have suffered as a child. I am really sorry about that, Dan. That is tough.
It’s good you are starting to read/watch videos about attachment trauma. The attachment trauma happens in the relationship with our parents or primary care-givers. My question (if you would like to answer) is how did your parents respond to your sexual abuse? Did they know about it? What was their reaction? Because their response (or lack thereof) was probably crucial, and it either helped you, or sadly, it further contributed to you feeling traumatized.
I’ll be glad to keep this conversation going, if you feel it benefits you.
TeeParticipantDear Katrine,
I am glad you are feeling better, now that you have a clear plan for how to go about it. I like your plan: apologize, appreciate his efforts, express your feelings. And yes, keep it simple and non-defensive.
I’m trying to not take a potentiale rejection personally cause sometimes it’s not just about liking someone it could be a whole lot of other reasons.
Yes, there is such a possibility that he likes you but he still for some reason rejects you – a reason that has nothing to do with you. And you are completely right: if something like that happens, don’t take it personally, don’t take it to mean that you are not good enough. In fact, you can tell yourself: “I am lovable, even if he says no.” Or “I am worthy, even if he says no”. You can repeat such positive affirmations beforehand, to boost your self-confidence and feel more at ease when you talk to him.
And as anita said, I also think you will feel good about yourself for trying it and expressing yourself, rather than hiding and withdrawing. I am rooting for you!
TeeParticipantDear Katrine,
I think your main message should be about yourself: that you like him but you haven’t always shown it because you get anxious around the people you like. You don’t have to say it in one breath and admit that you like him immediately, but you can pace it a little. I like your idea to start with explaining your own behavior and apologizing for it:
I was thinking about apologizing for my behaviour and say when my anxiety kicks in i become rude without knowing (shut ting down, ignoring people) and it’s hard for me to keep a conversation going(he had to constanly be the conversation starter) and then tell him i apreciate him taking time meeting me and give a yoga session
So you acknowledge that you behaved a little strangely and you explain why. If you want, you can also apologize for when you left the pub without saying goodbye. That would be a great prelude into saying that you did it because you like him, and seeing him talk with another girl made you really anxious, so anxious that you felt you had to leave immediately. And then I’d watch his reaction…
I would leave out this part:
then maybe something like but I don’t believe you didn’t read any intention into this, I think you like me as much as I like you. You had several chanses to cancel but didn’t you could have left soon after the session but you stayed.
I wouldn’t argue with him, or present “evidence” that he likes you. It’s on him to tell you that. I mean, you can say that you’ve read some of his behavior as having a thing for you, but you shouldn’t claim it as evidence that he really does. If he still resists and doesn’t want to admit that he likes you as a girlfriend, then there is no point in pushing. If he likes you, he should admit it as soon as you admit it to him… If he needs convincing and is reluctant – after you’ve confessed what you feel about him – then I don’t think you should argue and push any further. But I hope it won’t come to that!
So in summary, this is what I’d suggest: express your side of the story and your feelings, don’t assume his feelings. And watch his reaction… I hope it will be a positive one!
TeeParticipantDear Dan,
Even though you aren’t responding, maybe you are reading this, and I hope you don’t mind if I continue developing my understanding of you and your situation… I would like to backtrack a little and correct what I said in my previous post. In my previous post I was musing that your needs might not be primarily emotional, but rather that it’s the need for physical closeness and intimacy, as well as spending a lot of time with your wife alone, having her full attention.
Now I am thinking that those too are emotional needs, because having our partner’s undivided attention, their positive, loving and caring attention – meets a huge emotional need. We feel loved, seen, validated, appreciated….
You said something very important:
I think I wanted more attention than I was getting. Much of my happiness came from her which isn’t healthy. I would try to please her while neglecting my own needs.
My interpretation of “Much of my happiness came from her” is that you couldn’t feel happy on your own, when she wasn’t around, or when she wasn’t paying enough attention to you. You needed her to give you a lot of attention, to spend time with you, to touch you, in order to feel happy, and even to feel good about yourself. Would you say that’s true?
If so – if you needed her to feel good about yourself, and if her lack of attention caused you to feel unloved and unworthy – that would signal a childhood wound. And it would also explain why you now feel devastated and why you cannot move on, although you are telling yourself you should.
You asked about self-parenting. If what I wrote above is mostly correct, then indeed you would need to get in touch with your wounded inner child and help him heal. There is a way out, and it doesn’t have to be as painful as it is for you at the moment.
I wish you healing! And I would be glad to keep talking to you, if you choose so.
TeeParticipantDear Katrine,
how about telling him that you’d like to try that turkish restaurant that he suggested, and if he would like to join you and show you what the best dishes are. Since now you know that he likes you, chances are you won’t shut down if he acts a bit awkward or insecure once you are there. You can keep being warm and friendly, and I think things will develop from there…
It’s good to know that he too is working on his mental health and improving his self-awareness!
TeeParticipantDear Dan,
I loved anita’s explanation of what parenting and self-parenting is. Self-parenting really is feeding ourselves – giving ourselves nurturance – both physically and emotionally.
You said you were somewhat needy in the relationship, but you couldn’t pinpoint what your needs were. This is what you said about your neediness:
When I say needs I can’t really pinpoint what exactly.
About my neediness. I think I wanted more attention than I was getting. Much of my happiness came from her which isn’t healthy. I would try to please her while neglecting my own needs.
As for my needs. Again it’s hard for me to say exactly what. I would often want to go on a mini vacation as we really didn’t have a honeymoon and she wouldn’t want to go. I also feel closest with her through physical touch. At some point that wasn’t being reciprocated. I’m not just talking about sex but just any kind of physical affection.
You also said that a couple of months after the separation, you reunited for a while and were meeting in her house when the children were at their dad’s. It was very important for you to spend time alone with her, having physical intimacy (which was great – you said you had great sexual chemistry), enjoying a glass of wine (“we both enjoyed our drinks on the weekends together”), and simply spending a cozy time together.
This “idyll” lasted for about a month, and then she asked for some space again, and you gave her space. Your meetups haven’t resumed after that, since her daughter refused to go to her dad’s place for the weekends, and then her mother moved in again in June.
Based on everything you have written, I am thinking that perhaps your neediness is not so much emotional neediness. Maybe you don’t need a “mother”, as I have assumed earlier. But rather, I am thinking that maybe you need a companion who doesn’t have so many responsibilities with children and other people in her life, but can spend a lot of pleasurable time with you, going to trips, concerts, mini vacations etc. You need someone who is free (and care-free enough) to spend a lot of pleasurable time with you, and not burdened by all those responsibilities.
Things were great before covid, when she had the children for a week, and then she had a week off, when she was free to spend time with you. But covid ruined that and you found yourself in quite a different situation. And it got worse and worse, since her responsibilities grew – because for some reason the children didn’t want to go back to spending half of the time with their father any longer. Her mother also moved in and out, and then her father too.
And so she became a full-time mom and care-taker, burdened by all those responsibilities. Perhaps she even took on too many responsibilities and wasn’t setting proper boundaries, so it was worse than it should have been. Nevertheless, in this new situation, she felt she couldn’t give you what you need (she said “what you deserve”). Perhaps what she feels you need and deserve is a much less burdened wife who can spend a lot of pleasurable time with you, and give you much more attention than she presently can?
I am not saying that you are wrong for wanting a less burdened and more available wife and companion. It’s just that she at the moment cannot be it. Partially due to her life situation, partially maybe because she cannot set boundaries with her family, and so she becomes mother and care-taker exclusively, without any fun time for herself.
What do you think?
TeeParticipantDear Katrine,
I am glad you find it helpful to see him as a friend, and view him with compassion and positive feelings, rather than resentment.
I have learned a whole lot this year and still learning. I know that when you nervous system gets dysregulated you can’t act apropiatly because your brain is only focused on keeping you safe. I know i still react (shut ting down, pushing people away) instead of responding (regulating myself before making any decisions).
It’s great that you are learning so much, but also applying what you’ve learned in practice. Clearly you are much more regulated and much more self-aware than pre-pandemic, when you said that you liked a guy “but the moment he wanted me i bolted and went with a guy that wasn’t good.” Now you had enough courage to express interest in the guy you like and even to initiate a date.
The only occasion where you got disregulated was in the pub, when another girl was hitting on your guy while you were in the bathroom. Since he engaged in a conversation with her while you were away, you saw it as rejection and went home without saying goodbye. And then didn’t want to communicate with him for a week. But later you returned to your “baseline” and you continued being friends.
It’s completely normal that you sometimes “react” instead of “respond” – we all do that occasionally. But it’s important that you are aware of it and can get to your baseline quicker than before. So you are improving, definitely!
As far as his inquiries about what your plans for the future are, and whether you can see yourself living in a foreign country, those are all signs that he is interested in you. Also, when he asked you what your plans were for the evening – that too shows that he was interested in spending time with you. So there is no doubt that he likes you and wants to spend a lot of time with you…
TeeParticipantDear Sadlyconfused,
I am not completely sure but still, there is something about this situation that doesn’t sit well with me. I mean, it’s okay if he finds a woman attractive, you can’t blame him for that. But it’s less okay that he expressed it to her, even if “everyone in the community talks like that about one another”. Why would members of a gaming community need to talk to each other in a flirty, sexualized way?
He was adamant that he had done nothing wrong, that they’re all friends on there and that it just sounds bad out of context.
Well, is he talking like that with his female colleagues at work? Or with his female friends? Are there sexual undertones in his interaction with women? There are many places (work places included) where it is the case, but when I worked at such a place, I felt very uncomfortable.
I think part of the deeper pain though is that I thought he might be remorseful about the fact I’m upset by it, but instead I feel like he disregarded my feelings and couldn’t understand why it hurt me. I thought it might be an opportunity to get some mutually agreed upon boundaries in place when it comes to online interactions with the opposite sex, but he just flat out said that there was nothing wrong with his behaviour.
I also see it as problematic. Claiming that making flirty/sexual comments to women is completely fine and that you shouldn’t be upset about it – well I don’t agree with it. Because such behavior is disrespectful, first and foremost to you, but also to those women who feel uncomfortable being at the receiving end of such sexual remarks.
In any case, I understand why you are upset about his lack of insight and sensitivity about this topic.
TeeParticipantDear Katrine,
I am glad that your first intimate experience was a safe and pleasant one, and that it helped you conquer your fear of intimacy.
Yes we talked a bit today and he is still a bit awkward around me compared to my female colleagues but at least we are over the first contact since the rejection.
No wonder he is still a bit awkward around you – it’s because he still likes you…
It’s still hard cuz i really really like him
I understand that, I understand that rejection hurts… But I wonder if a different approach would be helpful: instead of resenting him for not giving you what you want, or pitying yourself for the lost opportunity, maybe it would help if you viewed him with empathy, knowing that he does like you but is afraid of intimacy. If you look at him with compassion and understanding, knowing that he is similar to you, or similar to how you were before, I think it could help both of you. Your heart will stay open, while he might feel unconditional acceptance, which could have a positive effect on him.
How does that sound to you? Do you think you could view him with compassion (not pity), and be open for a friendly relationship with no romantic expectations from him?
TeeParticipantDear Katrine,
I feel soo relieved that i can trust myself and my gut instinct. We just said hi to each other and he smiled so i feel a bit better.
Aaw that’s so sweet! I am glad that you’re feeling at least a little better!
Yes i would have said yes to him. Because earlier this year i had my first intimate experience with a man it was scary and I took a couple of weeks for my mind and body to relax in it. But it only happened because i went through with it even though i was terrifiying and foreign to me.
I am glad you would have said yes to the man you like and who likes you too! You say you had your first intimate experience earlier this year with a man who said he liked you (although you didn’t believe it at the time), and so you kind of made yourself to do it, even though it was scary, terrifying and foreign to you. May I ask – did you like that man? It’s okay if you didn’t, I am just asking because there might be something I’d like to add. But please feel free not to answer the question, if you find it intrusive.
TeeParticipantDear Katrine,
Honestly it nearly made me cry knowing I can trust my own perception of things and I’m not crazy.
I am happy for you, and I would encourage you to take in and memorize, to sort of “breathe in” the truth that “I can trust my own perception, I am not crazy”. I know how important it was for me to realize a somewhat similar truth about myself, which was: “I know what is best for me”. Because for years, I was confused, didn’t trust myself and allowed other people to tell me what’s best for me. It was a tormenting feeling. And so realizing that “I know what’s best for me” gave me so much freedom and increased my self-esteem. Similarly for you, I think that internalizing the truth “I can trust my own perception, I am not crazy” could boost your self-esteem. I sure hope it will!
But I nearly did the same i nearly cancelled my housewarming because of anxiety i didn’t really believe that they wanted to be there.
It’s good that you were aware of the anxiety rising within you, but nevertheless, you haven’t cancelled the party. That’s a success!
it’s extremely hard losing something you think was gonna happen expecially after a isolated and lonesome life
I am sorry it didn’t happen this time… but honestly, if he had “made a move”, would you have responded positively? I am asking because you said you too are very afraid of intimacy:
I think we might have the same attachment issues here, we keep getting close to each other and then it stops and starts again. I did the same with a guy pre pandemic i liked him but the moment he wanted me i bolted and went with a guy that wasn’t good. The thought of intimacy was scare i will even start to physically shake when a guy gets close intimate or physically.
How do you think you would have reacted if he made a move on you? Would you have accepted his advances or it would have been too scary?
TeeParticipantDear Katrine,
in my previous post, I didn’t express myself well. I said “I think he is sending you mixed signals and playing with your feelings”. Well, he is definitely sending you mixed signals, but he isn’t playing with your feelings on purpose. He does it because he is afraid of relationship. So I agree with anita and am pretty sure that yes, he likes you, but he is afraid to admit it.
I needed to know that i wasn’t crazy for starting to think he liked me.
You are not “crazy” for thinking that he likes you, you’re not imagining things, your perception is correct! How does this knowing that he likes you (and that your perception is correct) make you feel?
TeeParticipantDear Katrine Nielsen,
after reading your latest posts, my opinion of him has slightly changed: I think he is sending you mixed signals and playing with your feelings. Perhaps he himself doesn’t know what he wants. Because you did declare your interest in him. You said “I’m sorry for today your not interested it’s hard for me to read people.” And he replied: “No I’m not interested, your amazing person but I don’t see you that way.
His behavior up until till latest development indicated that he is more than interested, but then he sort of blew it, by 1) coming to the yoga/karate class with his brother, 2) being high, so that he couldn’t even pronounce words properly. Both of those behaviors (bringing along a third person on what was supposed to be a date, and being high) are romance killers, so it seems like he wanted to ruin it on purpose.
It could be that he is soooo afraid of relationship, that he’d rather sabotage it than risk getting into one. Because his behavior on the yoga date surely looks like sabotage or self-sabotage. And then he confirmed it by telling you that he wasn’t interested in you. I don’t think this is necessarily true, it’s more likely that he got cold feet.
But still, you can’t force someone into a relationship, so if he really isn’t interested, or has a strong fear of relationship, there is no point in pushing it. Perhaps it’s for the better, since he seems very confused and not in a good place mentally. He even told you that “he gets sick of people and places fast because of his mental health.” So perhaps he’s afraid that he would get sick of you too, and he doesn’t want this to happen? So he is sort of protecting you from himself by not wanting to get involved?
TeeParticipantDear Katrine Nielsen,
it’s good to hear from you again!
I think, or rather, I am pretty sure, that he likes you. But he is very shy and it seems he is afraid of rejection, so he doesn’t want to “make a move”, although he had plenty of opportunities for that.
I’m very protective of myself and don’t want to think a guy likes me if he is just being friendly with me.
That’s a good approach in general – better not to imagine things that aren’t there. But in this case, you aren’t imagining, he shows a very strong interest in you.
I ended up leaving without saying goodbye to him cuz i wasn’t feeling well. I shut down for a week and basically avoided looking at him and talking to him
Were you physically unwell? I don’t quite understand why you later avoided looking at him and talking to him? Is it because you left without saying goodbye and felt embarrassed about it?
the week after he shut down and did the same
Probably he thought you don’t like him and felt rejected, so he shut down as well, to protect himself.
Let me ask you – do you like him? If so, maybe you should show it to him, because right now, he might be thinking the same about you: that you are just friendly to him, but nothing more.
TeeParticipantDear Dan,
if the answer to my previous question is yes (that you did try to communicate but your wife refused), then the problem is mostly in her and her fear of emotional intimacy and vulnerability, I think. You did say that she fits the profile of dismissive avoidant attachment style (My wife is very independent and does have trouble communicating. She is more dismissive avoidant type).
You say she is independent – what do you mean by that? Usually people with avoidant attachment don’t like to ask others for help and believe they should do everything by themselves (they don’t like to rely on others). But you said that your wife was grateful for your help and acknowledged that you helped her a lot (I did a lot to help with anything and she knew that. She even said that she felt like she was using me as I was always willing to help). So it seems she wasn’t the type who would refuse physical/material help. Could you shed some light on what do you mean by her independence?
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