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February 18, 2018 at 8:29 am #193161AnonymousGuest
Dear joanna:
As to your question in the first part of your most recent post: knowing all this is helping me more and more as I type these very words to you.
A thought that comes to mind, something I thought about yesterday after turning off the computer, in regard to my communication with you: did you see those nature movies about an animal getting angry at another animal for invading its territory, chasing it out?
This is what is helpful to me: chasing out my mother, chasing her out of that mental territory that belongs to me, not to her.
Your mother invaded your mental territory in many ways, did she not: taking away from you the opportunity to develop your own relationship with your father, to make your own choices based on your values (not on hers), make informed decisions, based on reality and not on her reality imposed on you… well, this is how this is helping me: having my own mental space, my own mental territory where I decide.
Regarding your questions in the last part of your recent post, regarding confronting your mother: if you have to live with her, have to be in contact with her (let’s say the two of you are the only two people in an isolated island and you have to cooperate so to feed yourselves and shelter yourselves from cold and such)- then yes, confront. In such a confrontation you assert yourself.
Outside of the isolated island scenario, I don’t see a point to confronting. Reason is, the need of a child (an adult child included) for her mother’s approval is so intense, that it will be in your way. She is not a brand new person with whom you can establish rules of engagement. You are naturally invested in the old rules.
If having contact with your mother is in your way of having that mental territory that you need, a territory you need to heal and to make thoughtful choices for your own well being, then cut contact.
anita
February 18, 2018 at 8:50 am #193167AnonymousInactiveDear Anita
Cutting contact would be the best, many people tell me this. I mean one or two people who know her and whom I told this. But right now I guess it’s not that possible, maybe it will be in next few years. Recently she kind of break up with her partner so spends almost everyday in the flat that I live. it’s hers but I used to live here alone, now since November unfortunately she came back here. So I have to deal with her. But I see it like this: I cant escape the noise in the city which prevents me from finding peace, it’s true. I cant escape people or situations that trigger me sometimes and cause me to have panic attacks. Sometimes I can escape it and sometimes I have to face them. But I can learn to not affect me and to just fight it. Where fighting is not always a good thing. So your theory I guess is better. Anyway it is what it is.
The “mental territory” is a very good metaphore.
February 18, 2018 at 9:56 am #193177AnonymousGuestDear joanna:
The mental territory is a real thing- there is such a thing, literally. It is just not visible but definitely felt and experienced. I wonder what you mean by “I can learn to not affect me and to just fight it”- the city noise? … your mother-noise?
How can you make it so that your mother-noise not affect you (if that is what you meant)?
anita
February 19, 2018 at 5:51 am #193273AnonymousGuestDear joanna:
We started talking about your mother about Feb 9, ten days ago. You wrote on that day: “So it’s my hidden anger to my mother and many many more emotions which I can’t even name and that are so inconvenient, as we talked about earlier right? Truth is always inconvenient”-
We explored that truth since. In your latest post yesterday, you did what I did countless of times, what most people do most of the time: move away from that inconvenient truth, leave it behind and continue living the same as before.
You wrote in your recent post: “Cutting contact would be best…But right now I guess it’s not possible, maybe (later)… So I have to deal with her… I can’t escape people…But I can learn to not affect me… Anyway it is what it is.”
You feel that you have no choice but to live with your mother, that you can’t escape your tormentor- that was your reality as a child. You feel now that this very reality is the same for you. And so, you resolve to not let her affect you.
If it was possible for you to not be affected by her, you would have accomplished this a long time ago. You can survive her as you did so far in your life, but angrily, anxiously and …not well.
The purpose of discovering the truth is to not escape it but instead, make changes in our minds and lives so to fit that truth. A different life is possible for you if you don’t turn away from the truth. It will not be easy to make the changes needed, therefore you may need quality psychotherapy so to further believe in what is true, to correct the core beliefs inflicted on you by your mother,
and to make changes in your life, little by little, one step at a time.
anita
February 20, 2018 at 3:45 am #193497AnonymousInactiveDear Anita,
You really make easier for me all the understanding and thinking. Yes I’m aware I should move out, I thought about this from different reasons, like her not letting me live in general, day by day, making everything more nervous and miserable, but the truth is the reason I should move out is not everyday relation with her but more general and regarding the past.
February 20, 2018 at 4:35 am #193503AnonymousGuestDear joanna:
No doubt in my mind that not living with your mother and not being exposed to her in any context is good for your well-being. There is no way for you to not be affected negatively by her.
I also know that if and when you move out, if and when you do end all contact with her, life will not be easy for you, not for a long time. The harm she inflicted on you already happened and the healing process will be long after there is no more contact.
I wish it could be easy. I really do wish it could. But reality doesn’t accommodate wishing.
anita
February 20, 2018 at 11:59 am #193579AnonymousInactiveDear Anita
Why did you wrote “if and when you move out, if and when you do end all contact with her, life will not be easy for you, not for a long time”? Did you mean something would become worse without her in my life or just that cutting contact doesn’t magically makes everything better? (about the second option I’m aware of that but I wanted to make sure what you have in mind )
February 20, 2018 at 12:23 pm #193583AnonymousGuestDear joanna:
I meant that cutting contact with her doesn’t magically make everything better. I used to fantasize that when I cut contact with my mother I will be free and happy. Unfortunately, for too long I felt guilty while not in contact with her so I didn’t feel that freedom I hoped to feel.
Thing is I felt plenty guilty all through the years that I was in contact with her. So as to the first thought you brought up in your recent post- no, it wasn’t worse for me after I cut contact with her, not at all. It got better and better and better for me after I cut contact with her. Life got better for me because I cut contact with her and kept no contact.
(I am glad you check with me when you are not clear about what I mean. I do the same thing when I am not clear).
anita
February 23, 2018 at 2:12 pm #194135AnonymousInactiveDear Anita
I haven’t replied but I think about your words almost everyday so that you know. I thought about “she did not value me” and “she just needed to vent” in the context of “mother and child are not separate”, and your statement that there is no point in keeping the relationship or fixing it. I’ll try to explain exactly what I mean here. Sometimes I spend time with her, not very often, most of things I talk about are from the past, although I live in the same flat we rarely talk or spend time. But sometimes we do and then I notice how much she makes me nervous, in those times I remember how was it in my childhood when my parents were yelling at each other and she used to .. how to explain this.. She used to make me more nervous that I would actually be in this situation. She used to talk to me: don’t be nervous, dont be nervous, please calm down, calm yourself. Do you know what I mean? It’s like a kid falls down and you just say : “it’s okay keep going” and he will, but when you say: “dont cry, please calm yourself, stop being nervous about it” you show him he should be nervous so he grows up thinking falling down is disastrous. She made me like this. It’s what you wrote: “mother and child are not separate”. Right now since I started meditating I began controlling my reactions, my anger, my being nervous, began to notice when and why it happens, and to control it. So -> I began controlling to not be nervous when she TELLS me to. which I did for almost all my life. And now, returning to this “spending time” with her, I noticed she still would make me nervous but I now resist. It’s very satisfying and freeing, I imagine it’s not that big for you but it is for me, because I always felt like one organism with her and felt what she wanted me to feel. So when you’re saying I must have my own emotions, my own opinions, sorry I don’t quote but I guess this is what you meant, right? When I see she still is like that, and I feel sorry for her, because I want to set free from her and she still is what she was, never changed. Should I not care about it? She’s my mother. Should I not care because she didn’t value me?
February 23, 2018 at 2:45 pm #194143MarkParticipantjoanna,
It is extremely hard to let go and separate from our past upbringing. Our family of origin imprints our unconscious and creates these neuropathways that goes down to our fight-flight-freeze responses.
The Metta Meditation is a good practice for forgiveness. Your mother did only what she knew how from her own upbringing. Her fears, hangups, pain, dysfunction came from that. It’s not an excuse but a basis to understand and ultimately forgive.
The Metta Meditation puts you into this mindset where you think of someone or something that evokes loving emotions, whether a pet or someone that is/was close to you. Your body is now feeling love. You sit with that. You bring into mind yourself and go thru the mantra the Metta Meditation prescribes. You love and accept yourself while keeping the physical/emotional feeling of loving. Then you move on to other(s) that are close to you and do the same with her.
It’s a repetitive practice. That may help you not be so triggered by her, that voice in your head.
Mark
February 23, 2018 at 3:54 pm #194157AnonymousInactiveDear Mark
Thank you for that, I will definitely try that. I am very open to be forgiving, to not feel anger whether it is justified sometimes or not, I try to not feel it, because it is also a thing that she taught me, and now I feel this anger towards her so I want to not feel it. I dont want to be like her.
I also recently thought about this anger towards kids. I control it and I know I like them, but sometimes this anger comes. I do not know why, it is not justified in any way, just a kid, not doing anything wrong, and I get angry. It’s not a person who did something to me, not a reason for me to feel anger, yet I sometimes feel it. This anger is just empty, useless, I do not understand it, I do not get anything from it, I don’t have any grounds to feel it, it doesn’t bring anything. Just an illogical, inconsistent anger. How to overcome it? How to understand it, I try really really hard. I never yell or *get angry* at them, I just feel it, why do I feel it. I am damaged and automatic to feel it. Can I ever fix this?
February 24, 2018 at 6:07 am #194229AnonymousGuestDear joanna:
I will quote from your recent posts and respond:
“we rarely talk or spend time. But sometimes we do and then I notice how much she makes me nervous”- the sight of her, the sound of her, these trigger the many memories of her in your past. This triggering happens automatically. A single sound can trigger an experience of a lifetime. That triggering may not involve words, that is spelled out thought, only a feeling-experience, such as depression or anxiety.
“She used to talk to me: don’t be nervous… please calm down… so he (you) grows up thinking falling down is disastrous”- her yelling was the cause, you falling down was the consequence. She basically instructed you to not let the consequence of her action take place. It is like someone punching you on the face and instruct you: do not get a bruise! No bruising, please!
“She used to make me more nervous that I would actually be in this situation”- reads to me that her anxiety over the consequence of her actions (such as yelling), further increased your anxiety. What would have helped you would have been if she told you that it was indeed her yelling, her aggression that caused your anxiety, that she would stop those aggressive actions, comforted you, and then, over time, keep her word, until you trust her to do so, until you feel safe.
“I noticed she still makes me nervous but I now resist. It’s very satisfying and freeing”- you mean that although she is anxious, you don’t “catch” her anxiousness automatically, like before, that you are experiencing “(your) own emotions,”, not hers?
You wrote: “I want to set free from her”, meaning to be in her company and not be affected? If so, is this a new experience for you, and you are hoping that you will get better at it?
“I feel sorry for her… She’s my mother. Should I not care because she didn’t value me?”- you care because she is your mother. It doesn’t matter who the mother is, makes no difference. The child cares because she has this role: The Mother.
I will state the following in the first person, and you decide if it is true to you too: I should not interact with a person who doesn’t value me (unless I am held hostage by that person and want to survive the situation).
Regarding your most recent post, you wrote: “I try to not feel it (anger toward your mother, I understand)… sometimes this anger comes. I do not know why… I get angry… empty, useless”- when you try to not feel angry at her, and you succeed, the anger does not go away, it looks for a different object to attach itself to. If the person who has done you wrong is not available as that object (in your efforts to forgive your mother you made her unavailable to that anger), it gets attached to children who have done you no wrong.
And this is the hallmark of abuse, a child being abused by a parent, forgives the parent and abuses her own children. See, the motivation is already in you, to hurt innocent children.
You wrote: “I never yell or get angry at them (children), I just feel it”- I am glad you don’t act on the anger you feel for them. And that if you become a mother you will not act on such anger. Better still resolve that anger beforehand.
anita
March 1, 2018 at 10:00 am #195443AnonymousInactiveI agree with you that I should cut the contact, I agree completely. unfortunately in the next months I won’t be able to. Recently I try to have different attitude, to not react emotionally, and to not look for blame in myself (that much). Today she yelled at me with those accusations as always. I dont have a desk in my room, I will have it in few days but till then I keep my things in the kitchen and she’s angry about it, tells me this very often. I told her today that I will take those things on Sunday, I was nice, and she started to say that yes, those things are annoying. So I said I can take them now actually. She said no, don’t, just they’re annoying and theres a mess, and there are a lot of things, and.. etc. So I repeated Ok I will take them now, the desk will be here on Sunday so I can take them.. She said again no, I’m just saying you made a big mess in this kitchen with those things and, . .. . . So she just wanted to complain and just tell me how messy I am etc. So I took those things to my room and she started to yell that I do this on purpose, why do I take them now, I didn’t plan to and now I wanted to “show” and I am so shady and I feel offended all the time etc. I didn’t do anything, it’s just..I took those things to not hear the compaints for hundred time. I wasn’t even offended or anything, I’m a really nice and friendly person, I never wanted to have an argument or anything, I’m afraid of having argument with her because I would never win. I didn’t even have a chance to defend myself over her reasons and complaints. How can you defend yourself? I just asked: what did I do. I took those things. So she says: you did this in this way, to show, you did this on purpose. So I said again: what did I do for you to make this scene. I only took those things. She was so angry I left the room. And now there’s blame on me: “you are so offended I cant even say anything to you, you do everything to show me”. How can you defend what I did?
I try to have a different approach, after we talked here, and I am really thankful for that. Normally as I mentioned earlier I would cry, a year ago I did after a situation like this. Feeling so guilty for a hundred time, that again I did something to anger my mother, something I could prevent and not do, and the analyzing what was the moment I could do something to prevent this from happening (or to at least know for the future). Now I just feel hopeless I’m stuck here because I do not want to cope, I do not want to fix this, I do not want to adapt or change myself to not anger my mother and to hear how flawed I am and what still needs to be corrected in me. I’m so sick of living here.
I’m repeating to myself: It’s not my fault she gets angry. I didn’t anger her, It’s not my fault. I didn’t do anything to anger her.
March 1, 2018 at 10:27 am #195457AnonymousGuestDear joanna:
Glad to read from you again. I do think you are making progress, absolutely.
Your mother “sounds” like mine, what an amazing similarity: my mother too
1. Complained about my “wrongdoings” but insisted that I do not fix those wrongdoings.
2. Blamed me for thinking what I was not thinking, for feeling what I was not feeling, for having intentions I did not have.
#1 caused me to feel and be helpless in life, encountering problems but not even thinking that there is something I an do about it. For example, less than a year ago when it was warm in the house, it did not occur to me that I can open a window.
#2 caused me to suspect myself on an ongoing basis for having bad intentions. I hear voices in my head (so to speak, not in a psychotic way) that keep accusing me. Every time I do anything almost, there is a voice in my head saying: you did it wrong! And you did it on purpose!
I didn’t get it until I did… that that accusation that I was doing things on purpose to hurt others, was so distressing that doing anything, trying to accomplish any physical task, was exhausted. It is.. working under the influence of mental torture.
This is why I avoided physical work for a long, long time.
anita
March 1, 2018 at 10:59 am #195467AnonymousInactiveI too have voices that accuse me of having bad intentions. I always think of myself as being shady and doing things on purpose. Hah, what a coincidence, I just heard that very loudly today.
What about your voices that tell you you’re having bad intentions, and do things on purpose. can you tell more about that. I think I have those feelings…all the time, but I can’t be specific and understand it more. tell me if you feel comfortable to.
being helpless: yes, all the time. I never passed driver’s license and she always told me that I don’t have it and I can’t drive. So I was even more discouraged. Maybe I would want to someday, but she never encouraged me, she always complained I never did. So I hated this all “driver’s license thing” because of her complaint about me, and I didn’t want to pass it. And then she told me more how I don’t have it…etc.
In what way do you think I am making progress?
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