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December 16, 2024 at 2:47 pm #440770HelcatParticipant
Hi John
Haha I like your sense of humour. I think she passed some of her mental fortitude onto you. 😊
I’m glad that some of the things she taught you were quite useful. It’s a shame that there were other things that weren’t true any longer.
It is refreshing to meet a man that is open minded and has such positive views about women. It will be interesting to see what happens in the future.
I do think that women have a handicap in most countries though. They are expected to do the child rearing. It is hard to overcome things so deeply entrenched in society without that changing. We can dream to be treat as equals one day.
Love, peace and blessings! ❤️🙏
December 17, 2024 at 8:43 am #440804PeterParticipantI understand that answering how this is changing your experience of life can be complex.
Hi Anita
I often ask myself if I am living what I believe, and suspect I’m not. Even as I write that I question my use of the word believe…
I have got to a place where I notice in most moments the “yin and yang” dancing around themselves, though for me I would replace the words with the temporal and eternal. (Even as I know the eternal has no opposite as it is the source from which the temporal arises and returns) If I’m honest with myself I must admit that I spend most of my time in the temporal experience, judging, measuring… I know this because I find myself anxious most days that that arrises from the tendance to measure. The difference today in that I remain aware of the eternal, and the possibility of the return. Thus the image of yin yang as the best I seem to be able to do/be is a dance between the two even as I ‘know’ it remains a blank canvas.
Then there is Alan Watts warning: “if you’re going to outwit the devil (ourselves), it’s terribly important that you don’t give him any advance notice” If I set the intention to try to live out what I believe, the ‘devil’ is going to come out to play. Better perhaps not to try or believe and instead dance.
In reference to the blank canvas; You aren’t really dancing until you get to the place where you ‘forget‘ all the rules of dancing. Oddly it seams we first must learn so that we can then forget and do/be – work for that which no work is required.
December 17, 2024 at 10:44 am #440807PeterParticipantReading ‘The Life Impossible by Matt Haig. Matt has been candid about his tendency towards depression and suicidal struggles, which make his stories very much worth reading. He fascinates me because its clear he ‘knows’ the experience of all things connected and that the answer to Life as it Is, is a authentic Yes, yet this ‘knowing’ has not kept him from his depressive experiences, though it seems to have helped him move through the experiences.
The Life Impossible starts to with a young person letter to a math teacher asking for help, which very much resonated with me.
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At times I have found it very hard to carry on. It feels my life is already written at this young age and everything is known. I sometimes can’t breathe with all the pressure.
I am in a pattern, like a number pattern, a Fibonacci sequence – 0,1,2,3,5,8,13,21… – and like that sequence things get less surprising the further I go on. But instead of realizing the next number is found by adding the two before it, you realize that everything ahead of you has already been decided. And as I get older, as I pass more numbers, the pattern becomes more predictable. And nothing can break that pattern. I used to believe in God but now I don’t believe in anything. I was in love but I messed that up. I hate myself sometimes. I mess everything thing up. I feel guilty all the time… and I feel guilty for that too..
I look at what is happening in the world and I see that our whole species is on a path to destruction. Like it is programmed, another pattern. And I just get fed up with being a human, being this small tiny thing that can’t do anything about the world. Everything feels impossible…
Matt Haig – The Life Impossible(The novel is the response of the math teacher)
I suspect a lot of people can identify with those questions and thoughts, especially in this digital age where everything including ourselves is becoming a algorithm.
The experience of the blank canvas, beginner mind, Eternal Now… hasn’t and won’t make things different. The patterns remain… (My suspicion is that only forgiveness can change a pattern. Perhaps the only tool we have to influence life)
Still realizing the Eternal, their is a change which I can only describe as bitter sweet, which is a kind of contentment?
I suspect Campbell had it right when he said – “Realizing the relationship of the temporal moment to the eternal—not moment, but forever— is the sense of life.”Richard Wagamese says it better
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From our very first breath, we are in relationship. With that in-drawn draft of air, we become joined to everything that ever was, is and ever will be. When we exhale, we forget that relationship by virtue of the act of living.
Our breath commingles with all breath, and we are a part of everything. That’s the simple fact of things. We are born into a state of relationship. Relationships never end; they just change. In believing that lies the freedom to carry compassion, empathy, love, kindness and respect into and through whatever changes. We are made more by that practice. – Richard WagameseDecember 17, 2024 at 11:20 am #440808anitaParticipantDear Peter:
Thank you for sharing your reflections. It’s good to hear from you.
Your contemplation on living out your beliefs and the dance between the temporal and eternal resonates. It’s a profound journey to remain aware of both the immediate, measurable experiences of life and the eternal essence that underlies it all.
In Alan Watts’ quote, the “devil” represents our own inner fears, doubts, and self-sabotaging tendencies. When Watts says, “if you’re going to outwit the devil, it’s terribly important that you don’t give him any advance notice,” he means, as I understand it, that if you want to overcome your inner struggles/ anxiety or self-destructive habits, you shouldn’t overthink or over-plan it. If you give too much advance notice (overthinking) to your inner “devil,” you create unnecessary anxiety or resistance within yourself.
In essence, it’s about taking action without overanalyzing getting in the way. Dancing through life, as you put it, is about. carefree spontaneity.
Your metaphor of the blank canvas and the dance of forgetting the rules to truly dance is beautifully insightful. It highlights the importance of learning, integrating, and then transcending structured knowledge (the temporal) to embrace a more natural state of being, a more fluid and harmonious way of living (the eternal).
I would like to read your 2nd recent post in tomorrow morning and reply further. I hope that other members reply to you as well.
Take good care of yourself, hope you outwit the devil!
anita
December 18, 2024 at 12:01 pm #440840anitaParticipantDear Peter:
On your first of three threads, titled “Do We Change”, you shared and asked the following on June 5-6, 2016: “no matter how much things change everything stays the same…I thought about it. I’ve changed jobs, friends, locations, thinking, beliefs… I’ve done a lot of changing, but have I changed. My answer like the phycologist was no… Anyway, I’m interested in hearing about other people’s experience of change. Do we Change?”
You started your second thread titled “Disappointed”, on Nov 9, 2016, with: “I no longer believe in love or change.”
On Nov 14, 2016, you asked no one in particular: “So what is change? Everything changes but stays the same”. You ended your original post there with: “I’m a hamster on a wheel going nowhere because there is no ‘where’ to go. Love is just a joke.” On the same day, referring to the 2016 US elections results, you asked: “To “make America Great Again” is that a change or a regression?”
Eight years later, following the recent elections results, you wrote on Nov 29, 2024, in your third thread “Blank Canvas”: “I find recent events troubling and having me questioning my reality”, referring I believe to the recent elections results (Trump 2nd win, 1st being the 2016). You posted your meditation poem on that day, which read in part: “All Life arises from and returns to Love. It is, we are, I am… Love.”
* After I typed the above, I noticed, Peter, that you just submitted a new post 22 minutes ago in Jana’s thread (I will soon be putting everything I quoted above together soon, best I can). In this post, you expressed that sometimes you rely on strong emotions like fear, anger, and hate to take action. When these emotions take over, compassion disappears, and the focus shifts to “getting even” or being right. You note that strong emotions like anger and fear provide a boost of energy. However, you question if relying on the energy from these emotions is the right approach. You realize that you can harness the energy from strong emotions without becoming those emotions. You can act from a place of compassion while holding someone accountable or protecting yourself. In this post, you highlight the struggle to balance the need to take action with the desire to remain compassionate. You acknowledge the difficulty of maintaining compassion when strong emotions take over.
Your insight that you can use the energy from strong emotions without becoming those emotions is profound. It suggests a higher level of self-awareness and control, allowing you to act from a place of compassion rather than reactive anger or fear. Your honesty about relying on strong emotions like anger and fear to take action is refreshing.
Your repeated questioning of change and the dismissal of love as a joke point to a profound disillusionment. This cynicism may stem from repeated disappointments or unmet expectations in various aspects of life. The feeling that everything remains the same despite external changes suggests a deeper struggle with finding meaningful or lasting personal growth. The analogy of the hamster wheel evokes an existential crisis, where you feel stuck in a cycle without purpose or direction, leading to a feeling of helplessness and hopelessness. It reads like you’ve been grappling with these questions for a long time, and it’s clear that this has been a significant source of contemplation for you.
It’s understandable to feel disillusioned when it seems like no matter how much changes externally, the core experience feels the same. The metaphor of being a “hamster on a wheel” really captures that sense of going through the motions without finding meaningful progress.
Even though you express a lack of belief in change, your curiosity about others’ experiences suggests that you are still seeking understanding and perhaps hope. Thank you for opening up about these thoughts. It’s a tough journey, but your willingness to explore these ideas is a testament to your depth of character.
As to putting it all together, I will do it in the humblest way: I will share about my experience, the parts of it that I believe parallel yours. Of course, it’s for you to decide if it resonates with you, in parts, at the least. I will share from the heart:
Decades of my life were like that video I saw, which resonated: a black-and-white video, grey mostly, a man (I always felt more like a man than a woman) walking, walking different cities and country areas in the US, walking and walking, and the music playing was trace-like. You can see he is in different cities, but all the places he is walking through are grey, no distinction. It is clear that in his heart, the man walking feels- as he walks through changing sceneries and changing times (he is seen as a boy, and then an adult)- that he feels the SAME, no changes. And he keeps walking on the sidelines, not being part of anything that might be happening in the center of things. And throughout the video, although he keeps walking and walking, he is not getting anywhere.
This has been my Story for decades. No matter what country I was in, how young or older I was, walking on deserted roads or walking to the bottom of the Eifel Tower, my internal experience was the same: grey, no colors, walking and going nowhere.
More than half a century of the above experience (there were breaks from greyness, temporary emotional bright color breaks that never took hold (the depressed brain has to have euphoric breaks, a chemistry thing), finally, eventually, unbelievably (I had NO idea), I experienced something different.
Color entered my life. Not psychedelic colors (those temp., chemical breaks the brain takes because it has to), but real color. OH, THE RELIEF.
I had no idea.
And I don’t know how to explain it here, particularly because I am not going cerebral, So, I hope you have patience with me, as I myself don’t know what I will be typing next.
(I am pushing away cerebral thoughts that are pushing their way into this post, staying with the heart): yes, here it is: it’s the Belonging Factor (I see, a bit cerebral here). Okay, so, it’s the ISOLATION within and without that made my life consistently grey/ the same. The feeling of being terribly ALONE.
This is it, that’s all there is to the core experience of stagnation, alone-ness, loneliness, acute loneliness, being on the sidelines, not a part of.
No matter who the president of the US, no matter (most) external circumstances, if a human being feels ALONE consistently, long-term, the human being is sick, and there is no other way back to health than truly connecting, simply, deeply connecting with another human being.
Oh, the feeling that another human being truly likes me, truly, really.. likes me- that’s a burst of enduring color into the greyness.
In the last 10 years, gradually, increasingly, most recently, I felt being a part of humanity, and I don’t mean cerebrally, as in ideas, but really, deeply, emotionally. but simply, being a part of, belonging.
If I was reading the above words years ago, I wouldn’t have understood. It’s an emotional, visceral experience that you don’t know by reading about it. You know it by experiencing it and by nothing that is less than the experience itself.
In your meditation poem last month, you wrote: “All Life arises from and returns to Love. It is, we are, I am… Love.”- love is not helpful when it’s an idea. It’s Everything when it is simply experienced, as in you looking at a face of another person and you see that the person genuinely likes you.
You see, Peter, how I expressed myself in this post? If you express yourself to me (to others?) more and more from your heart, as you already been doing more of recently, will it help you?
anita
December 18, 2024 at 12:07 pm #440841anitaParticipantcorrection: the music playing was trance-like
December 18, 2024 at 12:28 pm #440842anitaParticipantMore to Peter: in your most recent post (now an hour and 40 minutes ago), you expressed that sometimes you rely on strong emotions like fear, anger, and hate to take action, noting that these strong emotions provide a boost of energy, and you acknowledged the difficulty of maintaining compassion when these strong emotions take over.
During my personal Awakening of recent, the feelings of belonging with other people, of being liked by some, that togetherness- it’s a very strong emotional experience which makes a huge difference in regard to fear and anger. Without the belonging, these other emotions have nothing to tame them. Without belonging, without togetherness, these other emotions take over like wildfire.
I think that the word Love has been overused, and it may have lost meaning. Belonging, being a part of is, or could be more accurate.
anita
December 18, 2024 at 4:47 pm #440848shinnenParticipantHi Helcat,
Yes, you’re right, there was no ill intent. Over the years I have realized that I have a tendency to explore areas that make others feel uncomfortable. And I do NOT want to do that. “I think that it might be hard for some people to practice stepping back from emotions regardless of intent, depending on their emotional regulation skills.” This is exactly to what I was referring. It is my way of life, to step back, as you put it; but it’s not for everyone, and I don’t want to suggest that others should adopt this practice.
Yes, I understand that you might want to ‘undo’ what others have taught you. My mother taught me many valuable lessons, but also many that I realized, later in live, were no longer true, if they ever were. However, these were very minor things, not at all to the same degree, I sense, that your mother misled you, ‘dropped the ball’, as they say. I am positive that I haven’t the slightest idea about what sort of hell you went through. And yes, we all suffer, but not to the same degree; some suffer much more deeply and profoundly than others; and I can’t even begin to imagine what you went though. This is not an overstatement; I really can’t. It’s good though, that your trust in the therapist bore fruit.
I’m sure that your son is in good hands, and will NOT have to live through the punishment you have. It seems to me that children from abused parent(s) go one of two ways, they either pass on the abuse to ‘their’ children, or make damn sure that their kids do not have to go the same route as they. You obviously belong to the latter group.
…. john
P.S. Yes, if you want to continue any part of any conversation via email, feel free to do so. I think you have my email address.December 19, 2024 at 9:58 am #440860anitaParticipantDear Peter:
I realize that I forgot to respond to your most recent post of two days ago.
There, you quoted from “The Life Impossible” by Matt Haig (which was published recently, so I read, on Sept 3, 2024) where the author expresses a deep sense of existential struggle and hopelessness. He feels that his life is predetermined, leaving him powerless to change his fate.
He compares his life to a Fibonacci sequence (a series of numbers in which each number is the sum of the two preceding ones.It goes like this: 0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, and so on. This sequence appears in many natural patterns, such as the arrangement of leaves on a stem and the branching of trees). This comparison highlights the predictability he feels, which adds to his sense of entrapment and pressure. As life progresses, it becomes increasingly predictable and monotonous.
He grapples with the concept of determinism—the idea that his life is already written and unchangeable. This belief strips him of a sense of agency and free will, contributing to his feelings of despair.
He mentions losing his faith in God, which suggests a deeper spiritual crisis. This loss contributes to his sense of hopelessness and lack of meaning.
There is a recurring theme of self-blame and guilt. He feels responsible for his perceived failures, including a failed romantic relationship, which intensifies his negative self-perception.
He does not only feels hopeless about his personal life but also about the state of the world. He perceives humanity as being on a destructive path, which reinforces his sense of despair and powerlessness.
The pressure and predictability of his life make him feel suffocated, as if he “can’t breathe.” This metaphor underscores the overwhelming nature of his emotions and his struggle to find a way forward.
The themes of self-blame, guilt, and hopelessness are indicative of depression.
The combination of personal failure, global despair, and the loss of faith creates a profound sense of hopelessness and helplessness. He feels unable to influence his life or the world around him.
In your words Peter (same post), you say that despite efforts to maintain a “beginner mind” and live in the “Eternal Now,” the fundamental patterns of life remain unchanged. Realizing the eternal aspects of life brings about a bittersweet change, which you equate to a kind of contentment. This implies a sense of acceptance of life’s unchanging patterns, coupled with the subtle, ongoing impact of recognizing the eternal.
The quote from Joseph Campbell reinforces the idea that understanding the relationship between the temporal (everyday moments) and the eternal (timelessness) provides a deeper sense of life. This realization can bring a profound sense of meaning and connection.
The mention that Richard Wagamese expresses this idea better suggests that Wagamese’s work resonates deeply with you, Peter. Key Points in the quote from Wagamese: he emphasizes that from the moment we take our first breath, we are inherently connected to everything that has existed, exists, and will exist. This connection is a fundamental aspect of our being. The act of breathing serves as a metaphor for our relationships. Inhaling symbolizes forming connections, while exhaling represents forgetting or overlooking these connections due to the demands of living.
The quote underscores that our breath merges with the breaths of all beings, reinforcing the idea that we are intrinsically linked to the entire universe. This quote beautifully captures the essence of interconnectedness and the importance of relationships in our lives.
Which brings me to my second post to you from yesterday: the importance of feeling togetherness with others, a belonging, of connectedness.. the importance of truly feeling it, of emotionally and socially experiencing it. It is the feelling Alone, Alienated, Disconnected that is in the core of depression, despair, hopelessness, the core of our societal-global sickness.
Connected, trully feeling connected (an emotional, real-life experience vs a mostly intellectual/ cerebral understanding of it), you will find a sense of AGENCY: the feeling and belief that you can influence outcomes in your life. It’s the awareness that your actions can bring about change and affect your environment or situation. It’s the feeling that you have the power to make choices and decisions, execute actions effectively and achieve your goals.
Agency is empowering. It helps individuals feel empowered and motivated to pursue their goals, and it is strongly linked to mental health and well-being. In essence, having a sense of agency means feeling that you are the author of your own life, capable of shaping your destiny through your actions and decisions.
anita
December 19, 2024 at 10:01 am #440861PeterParticipantHi Anita
Seeing my thoughts from 8 years ago has been startling. I still don’t have a answer to the question on the nature of Change.
“Even though you express a lack of belief in change, your curiosity about others’ experiences suggests that you are still seeking understanding and perhaps hope.” that is true years ago I set out on a quest to find people that changed and actually lived what they believed, and doing so found themselves content. I have found some that seem content while at the same time able express disappointment at what they see in the world. Then their are the ones that remain content and compassionate as they engage with life as it is. Mr Rodgers I think managed it.Ref the energy to act. I am very much a Enneagram Type 5 – the investigator/Observer. As someone who steps back before acting I’m very aware of the ‘energy’ needed to step forward. I agree being seen by others is the best source of energy to move out of stillness and into engagement with life.
As a type 5 my communication style will always seem to be coming from the head, something I know can be off putting, but I like to think anyone taking the time to read or listen will see heart.
Ref the comment about “profound disillusionment” I don’t know how profound it is 🙂 I am disappointed in the choices society seems to be making and the direction this might take things. We live at a time of massive consumption and wealth yet still fear not having enough. Then their is AI which wasn’t a really a thing a year ago and today were just ready to accept it as a given.
I’m a old white male so things will probably work out for me but I worry how things will be for the generations that follow. I don’t think History is going to be kind to this golden age.
Eight years ago part of my quest was to answer the question – what’s Love got to do with it? I agree the word is overused and would add that we tend to mistake the word for that which the word points to, the word being a symbol and metaphor.
My answer to the question of – what love has to do with it – is everything and nothing, similar I think to what I read in a book by Krishnamurti just this year where he says ‘Love can do nothing, but without it nothing can be done.’ (theirs a paradox for you)Today (is this a change?) I realize that Love is the attribute of the ‘Eternal Now’ and so has no opposite. Love IS.
Love IS from which all things arise and return. (In the temporal playground we just mess it up by trying to possess and or be possessed by it, and measuring the… stuffing… out of it. Yet still Love remains as it IS.I don’t think their is a point to believe in ‘What Is’ so still say I do not believe in Love, only now I like to think I say that without disillusionment…. most days 🙂
Love comes into being when the mind is naturally quiet, not made quiet, when it sees the false as false and the true as true. When the mind is quiet, then whatever happens is the action of love, it is not the action of knowledge.
Knowledge is mere experience, and experience is not love. Experience cannot know love. – KrishnamurtiA riddle: The observer is the observed and the observed the observer, the though is the thinker and the thinker the thought.
December 19, 2024 at 10:52 am #440862anitaParticipantDear Peter:
You submitted tour recent post 3 min after Mt mist recent post to you. I may wait until you read and respond to it, if you will, of course, before nt next reply 🤔
Anita
December 19, 2024 at 10:54 am #440863anitaParticipant* sorry for the misspellings – typing on my phone ft
December 19, 2024 at 1:51 pm #440870PeterParticipantHi Anita
I posted about “The Life Impossible” by Matt Haig as I felt it fit the topic of Blank Canvas
The student character does indeed seem stuck, depressed and maybe suicidal. I thought that the way he expressed himself would resonate with a lot of people.
The response the character gets from his old math teacher is a story of the Teachers struggle with similar feelings and then experience of the impossible possible. The book is worth a read for anyone that has had similar thoughts the student has.I liked that the Teacher didn’t judge his thoughts or try to take him out of them, but through story suggests… what I’ll call the eternal now view of connection.
What strikes me about these stories is that the characters find a contentment even as they still at time experience disappointment or concern for world happenings. Here language begins to fail as it returns to silence…
“Before one studies Zen, mountains are mountains and waters are waters; after a first glimpse into the truth of Zen, mountains are no longer mountains and waters are no longer waters; after enlightenment, mountains are once again mountains and waters once again waters.” Dogen
I don’t know what enlightenment is. I have had peek experiences that brought ‘colour’ into my world. And there was a time I might thought/hoped that those experiences would have change the world some how but such hope was… unskillful. Still I am grateful for the experiences, just… not in how I then measured and so tried to control them.
I know if I say that I don’t believe or hope… that many will find that scary and maybe even label that as depression. But its actually quite freeing. There is no need to hope or believe when the mind is still – Love comes into being when the mind is naturally quiet, not made quiet… – The suggestion here is that all belief and things like hope are constructs of the mind and all constructs constrict. Let the constructs go and everything opens up. This is the blank canvas.
December 19, 2024 at 7:17 pm #440876anitaParticipantDear Peter: good reading back from you! I will read and reply Friday.
anita
December 19, 2024 at 9:50 pm #440880HelcatParticipantHi Peter
I love that you are around more often now! It is so good to see you.
Thank you for sharing the reading recommendation. It sounds like an interesting book.
That is an interesting insight that forgiveness can be used to change patterns. Could you go into a bit more detail about that?
Haha I didn’t make the connection between blank canvas and beginner mind until you pointed it out. I’m way too literal. 😂 It does make sense.
But I also think that an adult beginners mind is not the same thing as a child’s beginners mind. Quite often I see children being referred to as the ideal state, not adulthood.
As a child it is very easy to be happy. A nice breakfast and my son is happy and clapping. A new puppy despite being in a new home with strangers is wagging her tail happily and soaking up the attention. The same breakfast as an adult doesn’t make me happy. We lose something special and become jaded. Lost in our minds, memories and patterns.
It is good to have no preconceptions and be open to teaching, because it is difficult for teachers to correct a bunch of misconceptions.
Love, peace and forgiveness! ❤️🙏
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