Hi John

I thought you might be referring to that. 😊 You might have noticed, I have a tendency to explore the uncomfortable too. I’m trying to work on understanding when is the right time to share things. It is something that I struggle with.

I’m glad that some of the things that your mother taught you and needed to unlearn were minor for you.

I’m also conflicted on the idea of short term discomfort and the idea of a later benefit coming from uncomfortable ideas. I’ve experienced benefit many times from uncomfortable ideas, not at the time but many years later. If I don’t understand something, I tend to work on understanding it. I especially believe that outside of therapists, the best way to learn how to heal is to learn about what has helped other people to heal. It would probably be important to share uncomfortable things as sensitively as possible.

I received the advice of forgiving my mother in 2016 and it is really only this year that I finally achieved it. I didn’t understand the benefits at first or how it would even be possible.

I think that I went from embracing my suffering and being buried by it, to rejecting and avoiding my suffering. Neither way is healthy. Perhaps a more reasonable approach is to acknowledge it?

You have a good point in regards to different levels of suffering. I think that duration of suffering is important. How it affects life. There are common human experiences that involve profound suffering. Loss of loved ones for example. I believe that most people experience depression at some point in their lives. The question is, can they recover from it? How do they react to it?

I guess that common human experiences can cause tremendous suffering is my point in regards to everyone suffering. I don’t see trauma as anything special. Because tremendous suffering is a natural part of life.

I don’t necessarily see suffering as bad thing because of my therapy. It hurts yes, but it is temporary in nature and there are positive things that can come from understanding suffering and learning how to cope with it. I believe that these are important lessons.

I guess the truth is that I am more afraid of the pain than seeing it as a bad thing. It is human nature to be afraid of pain though. Perhaps I am afraid of being overwhelmed by it again?

Thank you for pointing out my avoidance, as well as for the kind words about my son! I really appreciate it.

Love, peace and blessings! ❤️🙏

Dear Peter:

Intrigued and finding that I have a little more time by the computer, I researched what kind of childhood can produce The Investigator, The Observer, aka Peter 😊

I read (from parts of The Wisdom of the Enneagram & elsewhere) that Type 5 individuals often (not always) grow up in environments that value knowledge and intellectual activities, having been encouraged to explore, read, and learn independently from a young age. They might have experienced situations where they felt a need to be self-sufficient or independent. This could be due to a lack of emotional support or the necessity to rely on themselves to solve problems.

Experiences that lead to feelings of inadequacy or insecurity can drive a Type 5’s desire to accumulate knowledge and competence. This could stem from being overlooked, misunderstood, or feeling unable to meet certain expectations. Type 5 children might have spent more time observing rather than actively participating in social interactions.

In some cases, becoming an observer and investigator might have been a coping mechanism to deal with chaotic or overwhelming environments. By retreating into their minds, Type 5 children could feel more in control and less vulnerable…

(While these factors can contribute to the development of a Type 5 personality, it’s important to remember that personality is shaped by a complex interplay of genetics, environment, and individual experiences. Each Type 5 individual’s childhood and development will have unique aspects that contribute to their personality).

Also, type 5s can have deep, meaningful relationships, but they often take time to develop. They value quality over quantity and tend to form close bonds with a few trusted individuals. They might struggle with expressing emotions openly, preferring to process feelings internally. This can sometimes make them appear less emotionally connected, but it doesn’t mean they don’t care deeply.

Building trust is crucial for Type 5s. They need to feel safe and understood in relationships. Once trust is established, they can be very loyal and supportive partners.

They value their independence and need for personal space, even in close relationships. This doesn’t mean they don’t value intimacy; they just need a balance between connection and solitude.

Next, I researched how to communicate online (as we do here) with Type 5: it says to Respect their Need for Space, to give them time to respond and avoid pressuring them for immediate replies, to be Clear and Concise, as they appreciate clear, logical communication, to Avoid overly emotional or vague messages and get to the point while providing relevant information.

Type 5s are intellectually curious and enjoy deep, meaningful conversations. Engage them in topics they are passionate about or interested in. Avoid Small Talk, as they might not be fond of superficial conversations. Focus on substantial topics that stimulate their intellect. Type 5s often take time to process information and formulate responses. Be patient and understanding if they need more time to reply thoughtfully. Acknowledge and respect their knowledge and insights. They appreciate being seen as competent and knowledgeable. Avoid Emotional Overwhelm: While it’s important to be honest and open, try not to overwhelm them with intense emotions. They might find it challenging to handle overly emotional exchanges.

And now, equipped with the above, I will try to respond to the first of your two posts here from yesterday honestly and mindfully:

Thank you for sharing your reflections, Peter. It readds like you’ve been on quite a journey over the past eight years, grappling with difficult questions about change, love, and the state of the world.

Your quest to find people who live authentically and contentedly is truly inspiring. It’s heartening to read about the individuals you’ve found who navigate the world with both contentment and compassion. Mr. Rogers is indeed a wonderful example of someone who managed to balance these qualities beautifully.

As a fellow investigator (!), I appreciate your insights on the energy required to move from observation to action. It’s fascinating how being seen and acknowledged can spark that much-needed energy to engage with life. Your awareness of this dynamic is a powerful tool for navigating your journey.

I resonate with your concerns about societal choices and the rapid integration of AI. These are complex and often troubling issues, and your thoughtful reflections highlight the importance of staying mindful of their implications for future generations.

The Zen quote and your thoughts on enlightenment beautifully illustrate the journey from simple understanding to profound realization. It’s a reminder that the most significant insights often bring us back to appreciating the simplicity and essence of life.

You wrote: “As a type 5 my communication style will always seem to be coming from the head, something I know can be off putting, but I like to think anyone taking the time to read or listen will see heart.”- yes, Peter, I do see your heart, and it’s a privilege.

Peter: “My answer to the question of – what love has to do with it – is everything and nothing, similar I think to what I read in a book by Krishnamurti just this year where he says, ‘Love can do nothing, but without it nothing can be done.’ (there’s a paradox for you)”-

-Love is not a tangible force that can directly do things in the physical world. It is not an agent that actively changes circumstances or solves problems. Love transcends practical utility. It is not about what love can accomplish in a measurable, concrete sense. Instead, love exists as a state of being. While love itself does not directly “do” things, without love, actions lack purpose, depth, and connection. Actions performed without love are or may be hollow or self-serving. The Paradox: while love itself does not perform tasks, it is indispensable for actions that are meaningful and transformative. It suggests that love is the underlying essence that enables all significant human activities.

Peter: “Love IS from which all things arise and return. (In the temporal playground we just mess it up by trying to possess and or be possessed by it”-

– love is an eternal, ever-present essence. It is not confined by time or space. Love is the source of creation and the ultimate destination. The Temporal Playground refers to the world of time and space where we live our daily lives. It is a metaphor for the impermanent, ever-changing aspects of existence. In our everyday lives, we often complicate or distort the pure essence of love through our actions and desires. When we try to own or control love, we turn it into something transactional or conditional. This can lead to jealousy, attachment, and a sense of ownership, which are contrary to the true, unconditional nature of love.

Conversely, allowing ourselves to be consumed by love in an unhealthy way can lead to dependency and losing our sense of self. This can result in obsessive or possessive behaviors that distort love’s true essence. Instead of experiencing love as the pure, unconditional force that it is, we entangle it with our desires, fears, and needs. The true nature of love is beyond possession and control. It is a fundamental, timeless essence.

Peter: “Love comes into being when the mind is naturally quiet, not made quiet, when it sees the false as false and the true as true. When the mind is quiet, then whatever happens is the action of love, it is not the action of knowledge. Knowledge is mere experience, and experience is not love. Experience cannot know love. – Krishnamurti”-

– When the mind is in a natural state of quiet, it can discern the true from the false. Krishnamurti distinguishes between actions driven by love and those driven by knowledge. When the mind is quiet, actions flow from a place of love, which is pure and unconditional. He views knowledge as the accumulation of experiences and information, which, while valuable, is not the same as love. Love is an innate quality that transcends mere intellectual understanding. Love exists beyond the realm of accumulated experiences and intellectual grasping. It is a state of being that cannot be fully understood or contained by the mind.

Love emerges from a state of inner stillness and clarity, when the mind is free from its usual chatter and distortions, allowing for a pure, unconditioned expression of this fundamental essence.

Peter: “Today (is this a change?) I realize that Love is the attribute of the ‘Eternal Now’ and so has no opposite. I don’t think there is a point to believe in ‘What Is’ so still say I do not believe in Love, only now I like to think I say that without disillusionment. most days 🙂”-

– It’s fascinating how your perspective has evolved over the years. The idea that love has no opposite in this context resonates. I also appreciate the humor in your question about change: it’s a clever way to highlight the ongoing nature of your exploration.

You are finding a sense of peace and acceptance in the inherent ambiguities and paradoxes of life, embracing the complexities of existence with equanimity and insight. I would like to understand this part better.

Peter: “A riddle: The observer is the observed and the observed the observer, the though is the thinker and the thinker the thought.”-
– the distinction between the observer (the one who perceives) and the observed (the object of perception) is illusory, as they are one and the same. It points to a non-dualistic view of reality, where subject and object are interconnected and interdependent. It highlights how our perceptions and thoughts shape our reality, a humbling realization that invites us to see beyond dualistic separations. I would like to think more in line with this principle.

Thank you for sharing your evolving thoughts, Peter. They add a rich layer to the conversation about love and existence, and I greatly appreciate it. I would like to respond to your second post of yesterday later.

anita

Dear Peter:

I hope this message finds you well.

I’ve been reflecting on our recent interactions and wanted to apologize if my previous messages came across as too analytical or intrusive. My intention was to engage thoughtfully with your ideas and share insights that I found interesting and relevant. However, I realize that my approach might have felt overly personal or uncomfortable, and I’m truly sorry if that was the case.

I also feel selfish for engaging in analysis that I find so enjoyable, without fully considering how it came across to you. My enthusiasm for the subject matter may have made you feel uncomfortable or intruded upon, and I deeply regret that.

I greatly value our discussions and your contributions to the forum. Your insights and reflections have always been meaningful and thought-provoking, and I hope to continue learning from each other.

If there’s anything specific you’d like to discuss or if you have any feedback for me, I’m all ears. Thank you for your understanding and for being a part of this journey.

anita

I am so glad to read back from you, Peter, and what reads like a positive message, thank you! I will reply further Sun morning.

anita

Hi John

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences!

A couple of my friends have a fear of death.

For one, they don’t want to leave their family and that is the source. Their love is so strong that they fight death.

For another, the fear is a result of trauma. Being raised very religious and terrorized with stories about going to hell at a young age. Feeling like they were doomed because of being lgbtq.

For another, they had no contact with their family and lost their best friend suddenly at a young age and were traumatized by that experience.

I know what you mean. There are questions that I haven’t asked you because I know that death is a sensitive topic and I don’t want to cause you undue stress. I am very open to questions, so please feel free if you have any.

I’m glad that you have found a place where you can have open honest discussions. I feel like that is a beautiful thing. 😊

Thank you for the suggestion. I have written that type of letter. But I haven’t shared it with my loved ones. I don’t tend to talk about my past experiences of trauma with anyone. I’m used to supporting people and often people are unable to support me. Even with current issues, I don’t tend to talk about them. This is why I share here. I have difficulties being vulnerable and trusting people.

It is fascinating to learn about the different perspectives on suffering. I feel like people often perceive suffering as a weakness. In media, I believe it as a form of entertainment, designed to provoke emotion because without that people would be bored and it would not be as popular. It bothers me that a lot of unhealthy behaviours are displayed in media because people often repeat what they see on television and confuse that with reality.

I’m curious about the book you recommended. It sounds really interesting. I will definitely give it a read. I am busy with studying for my exams at the moment, so I don’t have a lot of free time right now. But next week I will have some free time.

I am aware of death. I have been aware of it from a young age because I grew up on a farm. I never really saw it as a bad thing partially because of that. I have been aware of my own risk of dying since childhood. I feel like I’m sitting on the proverbial fence about the issue. I don’t see much point in reflecting on it unless something that seems to threaten my life comes up. Beyond planning what I would like to do with my life that is. I learned that the only thing that is truly important to me are my loved ones. Other experiences are good to have, but ultimately don’t hold the same meaning or value.

I did really enjoy the Tibetan book of the dead. Very fascinating stuff. What do you think about the perspective of preparing for death? To die in a good calm way? I would like to volunteer in a hospice at some point. I am waiting to see how I respond to some of my older friends passing. I have seen people be alone in old age. I don’t believe that is something anyone deserves.

Very interesting insight on wisdom, compassion and awakening!

I think that there is more than one way to develop compassion. Suffering can be one way, but I believe that it requires human connection to temper the experience.

One of the wisest and most compassionate people I have met had not experienced a lot of suffering personally. She was very lucky to have had a good life. She was aware of what a rare gift that is and dedicated her life to help people overcome their suffering.

It strikes me that you might be similar. But then again, it seems like you have been through some suffering. But I would suggest that your perspective and training helped you to suffer less from the experience than others might. What do you think?

Oh don’t worry. I know that wasn’t your intent. But I still found your words helpful. I was just thanking you for that. 😊

Love, peace and blessings! ❤️🙏

Hi Helcat,
I’m not so sure I fear death; I think it’s more that I wonder how it will go, when it comes to my turn.
I do love life though. I often find myself saying, “I’m going to miss this place.”; especially when
I’m outside on a walk in the woods, or riding my bike.
I saw a movie, a long time ago, starring Omar Sharif, where he play a tribal chieftan.
In the only scene I remember, he said to his second in command, “When I die, turn me to the wind.” I get that.
Doomed because they’re lgbtq. That’s the fault of their upbringing, and or religion.
If you want to ask me question as to how I feel about death, go right ahead; I’m just not sure how I feel about it.
I do know that I DO NOT want to go as Dylan Thomas’ poem recommends …
“Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.”
“I’m glad that you have found a place where you can have open honest discussions.”
Well, the court’s out on that one.
I didn’t mean to suggest that you must share your letter; it may be that it’ll work if you burn it alone; I don’t know.
I worked at the local distress center for many years; and one of the things they told us was to encourage callers to
express their rage, fear, anger, disgust, you name it; the reason being that when you express these feelings to someone
else, they all of a sudden become REAL, not just a manifestation of your mind, that festers and rots; but real, and open to examination; so then the healing can begin. I’m just throwing this out there. I have no reason to believe that it actually works. And of course, one wants to be judicious as whom they share these feelings with, so ……
Of course you have trouble trusting people, we all do. No one wants to pull down their pants in public, so to speak;
one never knows what kind of reception they’ll get to exposing their inner-most sensitive feelings.
Suffering as a weakness, yes, especially men. Absolutely, the media is all about hype. I don’t watch movies or television shows to immerse myself in real life; I do it to get away from it.
Ah, the Denial of Death, it’s a very insightful read. Unfortunately, I was not ready to hear it at the time. Do be wary!
Indeed, growing up on a farm is a real lesson about birth and death. I guess when dying is a constant risk, one learns to adjust to it, as you have? I helped a girlfriend’s father stick and shave a pig when I was 16. (I had been a city boy, up until the year before.) I won’t describe it; I’m sure you know how it goes. It traumatize me!
You remind me of my wife, her family and friends are what her world revolves around. She’s a VERY good woman.
To be honest I don’t know much about the Tibetan Book of the Dead. So, it’s readable eh? I suppose my whole adult life
has been, in different ways, a preparation for dying. When you’re my age, you’ve lost many of your friends and relatives.
However, I suspect that I’m still in the ‘Death is what happens to others.’ mode. I’m very healthy and have never had any life
threatening experiences. We’ll see what happens when that occurs.
“I think that there is more than one way to develop compassion ……. I believe that it requires human connection to temper the experience.” Would you like to elaborate on that?
I doubt that I have the depth of compassion that you see in your friend. I suspect you might be confusing my openness with understanding about why others suffer. That is really not the case. “But I would suggest that your perspective and training helped you to suffer less from the experience than others might. What do you think?” Yes, I think you hit the nail on the head.
I’m glad you get something out of what I’ve learned; as I have learned from what you say. For years and years I have accumulated bits and pieces of discoveries and insights, almost never speaking of them; but our discussions have helped me to see how some of them fit together.
Thanks.
…. john

Hi John

I hope that you feel that we can have an open and honest discussion?

Haha I actually love that poem. It was in one of my favourite movies. 😊

Do you wonder about the practical aspects, or the um how do I phrase this… what comes afterwards? Or both or something else?

I’m glad that you love life and are healthy. According to a 96 year old I met, you may have a while ahead of you. He said that the secret to a good long life is to do whatever makes you happy.

Do you have any thoughts to share about how to have a good long life? I always ask this question and have had many different answers.

The question I was wondering about is this. Mind it is sensitive and personal. So please don’t feel the need to answer it. And I’m sorry if it does make you feel uncomfortable.

I was wondering how you cope with loved ones passing? I know that this aspect of life can be difficult for many people.

Yes, I understand what you mean. That is how these things work in therapy. When it is kept inside, it’s often either repressed or suppressed. Expressing (in detail) puts you in touch with the experience and allows it to be processed.

Bless your soul! That experience with the pig would shock me.

Ours was a dairy farm. Cows are not that smart. They get itchy and if there is barbed wire they will scratch themselves on it… to put it politely. A surprising thing about cows is that they can jump really high for how big they are. They would often leap over the fence into our garden.

I’ve taken care of animals for my whole life. But unfortunately, I had to kill an injured bird once. I learned trying to save birds in the past that there is very little you can do with them. Quite often they die of shock. Even vets struggle with birds. So it was better to put it out of its misery quickly. I did feel awful about it.

There is an accompanying book that makes the process of reading it much easier. 😂 The Tibetan book of living and dying.

Would you care to elaborate on your adult life being a preparation for dying?

I think that it is fair to not be concerned with these things yourself since you have always been healthy.

Haha opening this can of worms may cause us to delve into the meaning of words. Personally, I equate compassion to caring. From my perspective, you seem to care deeply about the pain of others. To you perhaps this is openness? You have expressed before that you don’t necessarily understand suffering that others go through. I don’t believe that understanding is necessary for compassion. It can be helpful to build compassion for people who lack it. But I suspect that you don’t lack compassion. I could be wrong though! Belief is enough for compassion and listening. At least that is what I believe. 😂

In the past, I didn’t understand the suffering that others go through and lacked compassion until I went through it myself. Nowadays, I have learned not to judge because I don’t understand something. Just to take their word at face value and hearing someone express pain is enough to tell me that it exists.

I did say similar. Not the same. She immersed herself in feeling, imagining the pain of others. Her training for her work has a lot to do with it. You have taken a different path, but I would still say that you are compassionate, but it is true. Very few people are as deeply compassionate as she is.

Ah, well the other way to develop compassion outside of suffering is to learn it from others. Human nature is quite social, so with a good upbringing it is quite easy to become compassionate. My son is one and he already tries to share his toys and food. I didn’t teach him to do this. He just watches and learns and tries to copy.

I believe that suffering without human connection can cause massive issues for people which negatively affect compassion.

When I was young, I wasn’t compassionate, I actively suppressed my emotions. My home was violent and so I was violent at school towards bullies. And it got harder to tell right from wrong. What is the difference between a teasing joke from a friend and bullying? When I realised that I was starting to hurt my friends I stopped fighting because I didn’t want to become like my mother. I was 12. I had to teach myself very rudimentary things like if I don’t like being treat that way, other people might not like it either. Part of the reason why the world is so messed up is because self-control is difficult. It’s easy to follow wherever impulse takes you. Violence is a release that makes you feel powerful and in control when quite the opposite is true. Holding back, denying impulse takes effort and strength.

Being helped, being around kind people. Encourages us to do the same. All in all, I think that who people choose to spend time with is very important because it shapes our personalities.

I’m glad to hear that our conversation has helped you fit all of the pieces together. I’m happy to talk about anything you would like! I think it’s wonderful that you are sharing some of the insights you’ve collected over the years and deeply appreciate it.

I wish you and your family Happy holidays! I’m not sure if you celebrate?

Love, peace and blessings! ❤️🙏